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Criticism of the BIP

Started by Dr. Paes, June 17, 2008, 07:42:10 AM

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Voodoo

Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 17, 2008, 05:24:11 PM


I believe she thinks we're trying to manufacture revolutionaries, but are creating impotent revolutionaries because we eschew the traditional concept of revolution.

PosterGASM is the Cialis® for impotent revolutionaries everywhere.

I'm not trying to change the world, I am just trying to make the world say "WTF?"

Bu🤠ns

Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats. (The primary reason for this is, that most of the people here do a good enough job of that without her help.)

what makes the BIP work, i think, is viewing as the opening stages of a process of introspection.  the pamphlet itself isn't the final word in terms of what it stands for (although i can see how it might be easy to make that hasty inference). i think if one wants to get a better grasp on the idea one should read the forum posts regarding it.  the introspective process and therefore the evolution of the metaphors continue within the forums.  By doing this one can see how it evolves differently for each individual.   

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Rev. Voodoo on June 17, 2008, 06:52:10 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 17, 2008, 05:24:11 PM


I believe she thinks we're trying to manufacture revolutionaries, but are creating impotent revolutionaries because we eschew the traditional concept of revolution.

PosterGASM is the Cialis® for impotent revolutionaries everywhere.

I'm not trying to change the world, I am just trying to make the world say "WTF?"

:mittens:

:potd:

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: burnstoupee pancakes on June 17, 2008, 07:47:55 PM

what makes the BIP work, i think, is viewing as the opening stages of a process of introspection.  the pamphlet itself isn't the final word in terms of what it stands for (although i can see how it might be easy to make that hasty inference). i think if one wants to get a better grasp on the idea one should read the forum posts regarding it.  the introspective process and therefore the evolution of the metaphors continue within the forums.  By doing this one can see how it evolves differently for each individual.   

That's my take as well, and I think it's where Doloras's interpretation falls short. The BIP is not a "full" philosophy, and it's not meant to have all the answers. We'd be pretty fucking arrogant to assume that we know how to "fix" everything that's wrong with the world, when what we're really doing is telling people how to screw around with their personal definitions of what's wrong with the world.

Also, FTR, I didn't care for the BIP when I first read it either... but thats because I was still a Pinealist and thought it wasn't silly enough for a Discordian to bother with.

Payne

The BIP is what made me stick around, for pretty much the reasons why you disliked it it on first sight, Cainad.

It's a personal preference, I guess.

Daruko

I think it's a great metaphor, but no better than RAW's "reality tunnels".  Sometimes I prefer to use the latter, because "tuning in" seems a bit less rigid than "changing the bars". 

Bu🤠ns

#21
thats why i personally perfer teh Golden Sphere of Possibility term.

edit: but i feel both terms go together.

Doloras LaPicho

Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats.

I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.

One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.
Chaos Marxism - class-struggle politics meets transpersonal psychology meets memetics meets a very odd sense of humour indeed

Verbal Mike

I think if you stick around you'll at least get a better idea of what we're on about. Because you seem very, very, very far off target on a few points.
And by "we" I mean the spags who wrote the pamphlet, I had nothing to do with it. I just happen to agree with them on a few things.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Hi Doloras,

I'm of the mind that mass action is just as viable as more localized and individualized approaches. Revolutions are black swans—that is, just about impossible to predict except in hindsight—so the more angles people are coming at the problem, the more likely a spark is going to catch.

Stick around, intelligent dissenting views are what make this place worthwhile.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.

Oh, I disagree entirely.

QuoteThanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, then we have much to say to each other.

Much better.

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.

We ARE the grease monkeys. We ARE the proles. Is it wrong for us to be self-directed, or must we let float listless in the sea of humanity, waiting for a revolution to come along?

AFK

Quote from: burnstoupee pancakes on June 17, 2008, 07:47:55 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats. (The primary reason for this is, that most of the people here do a good enough job of that without her help.)

what makes the BIP work, i think, is viewing as the opening stages of a process of introspection.  the pamphlet itself isn't the final word in terms of what it stands for (although i can see how it might be easy to make that hasty inference). i think if one wants to get a better grasp on the idea one should read the forum posts regarding it.  the introspective process and therefore the evolution of the metaphors continue within the forums.  By doing this one can see how it evolves differently for each individual.   

This is 100% troof.  The energy we had swirling around here while the thing was being put together was awesome.  It's certainly been the highlight of my time here on PD.COM  Even immediately afterwards a lot of discussions really took off.  The riffing on ideas was seemingly endless there for awhile. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cramulus

#27
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.

Hi Doloras! Thanks for coming by!

by now you've gathered that we like it hot around here.  :p Just as you'd warn us that your work is friendly criticism and the opening of a dialogue, I'd warn that though people may disagree with your ideas, we're generally pretty friendly (eh sorta), so don't take anything here too personally. This is a pretty broad community, so you might find some stuff interesting other than dialogue about revolution. Anyway, welcome aboard, yadda yadda

let me clarify a bit on the MachineTM metaphor, and its personal relevance

the MachineTM isn't something that's only created by the people at the "top" of the socioeconomic hierarchy. Political gambits and class struggle are a part of it, but it's way more than that. It's everything you do. The MachineTM is traffic, it's the education you give your kids, it's the attitude you project in public, and it's the expectation that if you're sick, you'll call work and let them know you won't be coming in. The MachineTM is something we all make with everything we do.

It's the push and pull of personalities and cultural forces against each other. It's the reality that we make by mutual participation.

The way the Machine is engineered, when I put up posters and flyers in my neighborhood, somebody takes them down. Through persistence, good humor, and memetics, I'm slowly changing that. (see my essay about Why I Put Up Posters) And I've seen people in my neighborhood laughing and visibly appreciating my limited reality-hacking. That's the revolution I want to be a part of. That's my Discordia.

Collect all 1024.

AFK

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats.

I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.

One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.

I recommend digging up our thread(s) on the MACHINE(tm) so you can see the totality of where we are coming from.  Though, truth-be-told, not everyone here has the same take on it.  But I think there is a certain chunk of the idea we all tend to orbit around. 

Also, I'm glad to see a BIP-critic (you aren't the first) come and engage in dialogue after the fact.  We had another person who came, asked some questions, and then wrote a particularly crap-fest of a piece on the BIP.  Then, he refused to come back and discuss it with us.

So I appreciate you coming to engage us in conversation. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Mangrove

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats.

I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.

One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.

That ship has already sailed. PD.com is full of asshats....but we have a groovy booklet & lots of ideas open for discussion. Join in, have fun & welcome.
:)
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.