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"But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"

Started by Cainad (dec.), October 04, 2013, 03:38:17 PM

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Cainad (dec.)

What you say: "I know you think X is true, but X is actually not true."

What they hear: "The person who told you that X is true lied to you. They're a lying liar who is filling your head with lies."

What they reply: "No way, X is definitely true, how dare you!"



The challenge: What techniques can be employed to get around this response?

LMNO


Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 04, 2013, 03:39:11 PM
Direct evidence?

Well yeah. :lulz: That's usually good for getting them to believe you, unless they're really gonna dig their heels in.

But the problem I find interesting is the one where people will conflate "Your source was incorrect" with "Your source tried to deceive you." The second one triggers a much more defensive response, making it harder to get worthwhile discussion done.

It's more common in kids, but I guess it's sort of the same mechanism behind hearsay and rumors. If you trust the source as a person, you're more likely to trust the information they give you even if they aren't an authoritative source. The reaction isn't always as blatant as what I described in the OP.

LMNO

Truth be told, if I get too much pushback about source material, I'll just let it go. I don't have the time to deal with monkey behavior like that.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

"I think your source may be mistaken, because this is what I found when I looked for information:"
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Q. G. Pennyworth

"Your friend probably got it from a bad source, the internet is awful for that nowadays. Have you heard of source amnesia?"

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 04, 2013, 05:17:05 PM
Truth be told, if I get too much pushback about source material, I'll just let it go. I don't have the time to deal with monkey behavior like that.
Quote from: Mean Mister Nigel on October 04, 2013, 05:43:00 PM
"I think your source may be mistaken, because this is what I found when I looked for information:"
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 04, 2013, 09:28:51 PM
"Your friend probably got it from a bad source, the internet is awful for that nowadays. Have you heard of source amnesia?"

All of these are probably valid responses.

I'll admit I didn't give this premise a huge degree of thought when it popped into my head this morning. :lol: It may not be quite as deep a subject as my barely-caffeinated brain thought it was at the time.

Q. G. Pennyworth

Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on October 04, 2013, 09:33:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 04, 2013, 05:17:05 PM
Truth be told, if I get too much pushback about source material, I'll just let it go. I don't have the time to deal with monkey behavior like that.
Quote from: Mean Mister Nigel on October 04, 2013, 05:43:00 PM
"I think your source may be mistaken, because this is what I found when I looked for information:"
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 04, 2013, 09:28:51 PM
"Your friend probably got it from a bad source, the internet is awful for that nowadays. Have you heard of source amnesia?"

All of these are probably valid responses.

I'll admit I didn't give this premise a huge degree of thought when it popped into my head this morning. :lol: It may not be quite as deep a subject as my barely-caffeinated brain thought it was at the time.

In more general terms: disengage (LNMO), counterpoint (Nigel), and redirection (mine). They're super important tools when talking with people, and I think it's totally worth doing thought exercises about how to use them in specific scenarios. It's really easy to get deer in the headlights if you don't practice this shit.

The Good Reverend Roger

*ahem*

SHUT UP

That is all the response you need.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Reginald Ret

Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on October 04, 2013, 03:38:17 PM
What you say: "I know you think X is true, but X is actually not true."

What they hear: "The person who told you that X is true lied to you. They're a lying liar who is filling your head with lies."

What they reply: "No way, X is definitely true, how dare you!"



The challenge: What techniques can be employed to get around this response?
Another technique is assuming their emotion is about the subject. Best used when the subject is less important to them than their anger seems to imply.
"Seriously? you identify so strongly with this brand of cereal that a disagreement about it's caloric intent is a personal insult to you? I think you need to rethink your priorities."
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Chelagoras The Boulder

One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
"It isn't who you know, it's who you know, if you know what I mean.  And I think you do."

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 04, 2013, 09:28:51 PM
"Your friend probably got it from a bad source, the internet is awful for that nowadays. Have you heard of source amnesia?"

Wow yes. I've been reviewing interviews recently; actually re-experiencing conversations months later is so weird and I keep going 'wow, that's who I heard that from?'
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

GrannySmith

Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on October 09, 2013, 10:33:36 PM
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ

the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
  X  

PopeSlag

"A man glued to the ceiling is going to tell you the couch is closer to the sky, but let's look at things from the floor for a moment..."

Then, get them unbelievably drunk.

Once drunk and the room is spinning, ask them to put their foot on the floor for a minute. After a time, make them put their foot on the ceiling (may require low ceilings or clever monkeys) for a minute. Ask them which one makes the room stop spinning.

If they throw up on themselves with their leg in the air, they'll never mention it again. There are interesting ways of looking at things aplenty, but only the real one makes the room stop spinning.
First, when people are having fun, time is said to go by faster. Second, with objects sharing a common gravity, time is slower for the object closest to the center of gravity. Therefore, it's more fun in space.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: PopeSlag on November 12, 2013, 01:10:02 AM
"A man glued to the ceiling is going to tell you the couch is closer to the sky, but let's look at things from the floor for a moment..."

Then, get them unbelievably drunk.

Once drunk and the room is spinning, ask them to put their foot on the floor for a minute. After a time, make them put their foot on the ceiling (may require low ceilings or clever monkeys) for a minute. Ask them which one makes the room stop spinning.

If they throw up on themselves with their leg in the air, they'll never mention it again. There are interesting ways of looking at things aplenty, but only the real one makes the room stop spinning.

I think I like this.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."