Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Cain]

Another way of looking at it:

Race can be seen in terms of the signifier and signified.  Skin colour is the signifier.  Of course everyone sees the skin colour.  What it signifies...well, that is a very complex issue.  For racists, it signifies a level of hierarchy, inherent superiority or inferiority.  We all know how that deal goes.

However, race can signify things, without those things being racist.  Knowing the history of how people with that signifier have been treated, how stereotypes and other signifiers are used to pigeon-hole them into certain roles and character attributes, knowing how political power has been wielded against them, that necessarily entails recognizing race in the first place.

The non-recognition of race, the idea of just seeing people, would be great in a world without that historical baggage.  But, unfortunately, we don't live in that world.  We've just got this one, where racism was an endemic and structural form of oppression, which does still inform some of the mechanisms of political control and power (I believe class is possibly even more important, but as a white dude who does not suffer from the negative effects of racism, I of course have an element of bias there).

Trying to ignore race can, in effect, obliviate the more pernicious yet less hard to define and conceptually difficult forms of discrimination and persecution that can exist.  To put it another way: if I was pulled over while driving, I probably wouldn't make too much of a fuss, even if I suspected I had not done anything to warrant it, because, as a rule, white guys don't get pulled over for no good reason.  However, if I was in the car and it was a black friend who was driving and he had done nothing to warrant it, then I would be considerably more vocal in my protests, and may make a couple of snide comments that would undoubtedly get me tripping down every step to the holding cell.  Because the act is different, because of the racial component and the racist approach the police take.

I guess what I'm trying to say is not that people should see without seeing race, but without seeing race is impossible, because assumptions like this are bound up in how we think, even if the assumption is the one that other people will be racist to people with different skin colour.  The fact that we expect the police to be horribly discriminatory, or that Republicans will make awful racially charged statements (ie Gingrinch's assumption that it is mostly African-Americans on food stamps, when in fact it is more white Americans, or Santorum's quickly bitten-down upon remark about "black people taking your money") is because we do see race.

Seeing race is to understand its impact in the social, economic and political arena.  And I'm sure no-one would disagree with that, but, as Nigel was saying, the "ignoring race" thing could be read as trying to ignore the history and social context of race, which is really only possible from a priviliged position within the system in the first place.

[navkat]

Ohhhh. This one is especially good. Thank you, Telarus!
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/405561/january-09-2012/melissa-harris-perry

Yeah, I had missed that one. Thanks Nigel.


As to Navkat's exposition, I don't think that is soley "but I have black friend". Our minds can only juxtaopse the experiences/situations/object-verb-system we have found ourselves in previously.

She has to be able to come to her own terms with it (with the caveat that now your conversations are now part of her experiential pallette).

Oh dear.

I don't get it. I'm starting to feel like I'm somehow digging myself into a hole and I don't know how or why. I'm actually starting to feel like making this much effort analyzing the matter is actually counter-productive somehow but I'm game to debate what I don't understand.

So, what am I missing? My aim here was to try to articulate how "I don't see race" could be a true sentiment even if it's not accurate or based on equal perception.

Then, my attempt was to reveal my perception and compare notes. Now I feel like a white people joke. Is it really that bad?

[Placid Dingo]

All anyone is saying is that ignoring race isn't a solution. Also that treating people equally regardless of race is not the same as not seeing race. I don't think anyone's intentionally trying to harsh on you. I dint think theres as much contention as confusion going on.

[navkat]

All anyone is saying is that ignoring race isn't a solution. Also that treating people equally regardless of race is not the same as not seeing race. I don't think anyone's intentionally trying to harsh on you. I dint think theres as much contention as confusion going on.

Nono. I mean, dish it out, if it's necessary. I just don't understand how I'm fucking up.

[Placid Dingo]

All anyone is saying is that ignoring race isn't a solution. Also that treating people equally regardless of race is not the same as not seeing race. I don't think anyone's intentionally trying to harsh on you. I dint think theres as much contention as confusion going on.

Nono. I mean, dish it out, if it's necessary. I just don't understand how I'm fucking up.

I think you're fucking up by getting confused.

All that's being said is ignoring race doesn't do any good because it's only from a privileged position that one is at liberty to ignore race.

If you're saying 'I ignore race' without trying to justify that as a solution, a lot of the criticism doesn't seem to be especially relevant.

Also from what I read some people have said that when you say 'I ignore race,' it's not really accurate; what you're really doing is withholding judgment on an individual until you can assess them individually, consciously disregardin race as a factor.

the deconstruction of your comment reduced to 'I have a black friend' seem to come out of you posing a fairly long comment were the point was kind of unclear; party because you seemed to be misunderstanding the original criticisms.

[AFK]

Nobody ignores race.  Stevie Wonder and Jeff Healy don't ignore race. 

Ignoring race would be ignoring culture. 

It's more about how your bars react when you acknowledge and observe race. 

And in some cases it is important to observe and acknowledge race.  The obvious example is when one of another race is being harrassed. 

But many other times, it isn't important and we may process that this person who looks different and comes from a different culture is experiencing the same kind of life moments that we experience on a day to day basis. 

That's where I am with race.  I see race.  I see culture.  sometimes it is important, sometimes it isn't.  But never is it a criteria for downgrading or upgrading a person.  It's just one of the bars of another person I recognize. 

[Cain]

That's where I am with race.  I see race.  I see culture.  sometimes it is important, sometimes it isn't.  But never is it a criteria for downgrading or upgrading a person.  It's just one of the bars of another person I recognize. 

That's kinda what I was getting at, with my post, only far more succint.

[navkat]

All anyone is saying is that ignoring race isn't a solution. Also that treating people equally regardless of race is not the same as not seeing race. I don't think anyone's intentionally trying to harsh on you. I dint think theres as much contention as confusion going on.

Nono. I mean, dish it out, if it's necessary. I just don't understand how I'm fucking up.

I think you're fucking up by getting confused.

All that's being said is ignoring race doesn't do any good because it's only from a privileged position that one is at liberty to ignore race.

Got that. I mean, okay, yeah that's new perspective for me

If you're saying 'I ignore race' without trying to justify that as a solution, a lot of the criticism doesn't seem to be especially relevant.

Well, I was originally trying to justify it as a solution but I concede that there are some good reasons why it's not after listening to what others have to say.

What I'm saying now is that it's not a lie

Also from what I read some people have said that when you say 'I ignore race,' it's not really accurate; what you're really doing is withholding judgment on an individual until you can assess them individually, consciously disregardin race as a factor.

Right. I admitted that...sort of. I mean, I admitted to the fact that it's not "blindness" per se. And then I tried to describe what it is: a comfortable lack of awareness...which we've now made clear is White Privelege.

the deconstruction of your comment reduced to 'I have a black friend' seem to come out of you posing a fairly long comment were the point was kind of unclear; party because you seemed to be misunderstanding the original criticisms.

And posting a lot of centrist perspective as well. I just don't understand how it was taken that way or what I'm doing wrong if it really is that way somehow and I'm not seeing it.

I'm trying verrrry hard here to be candid, honest and consider there may be something I missed without falling into the "that's not ME!" trap or backpeddling in any way.

[AFK]

I think that is actually a problem with racists is that they don't see the culture along with the race.  Or, they don't have an understanding any deeper than whatever superficial bullshit they see on TV.  That has certainly been the case with anyone in America who has origins in the Middle East.  That's the case in my area where your average racist doesn't see a difference between an African-American and a Somali refugee. 

Because when you get a deeper understanding of cultures, you will have a better understanding of the true person, and very likely, discover you have far more in common with that person than you ever would have dreamed of. 

[navkat]

I think that is actually a problem with racists is that they don't see the culture along with the race.  Or, they don't have an understanding any deeper than whatever superficial bullshit they see on TV.  That has certainly been the case with anyone in America who has origins in the Middle East.  That's the case in my area where your average racist doesn't see a difference between an African-American and a Somali refugee. 

Because when you get a deeper understanding of cultures, you will have a better understanding of the true person, and very likely, discover you have far more in common with that person than you ever would have dreamed of.

I feel that's unrealistic for your avg. "Workaday troubadour."

It's not anyone's job to seek "deeper understanding" of other people's worlds. You can't do that for every single micro-community AND OH GOD WHERE DOES IT STOP? THE IRISH? THE MANY DIFFERENT VERNACULARS OF THE ENGLISH?

Also, I think it's insulting unless it comes from a bona fide desire to gain a deeper understanding.

Why can't we just ask questions and try to do better and BE better every day? Why are we afraid of making mistakes? Gaffes? Fuck, I've said some dumb shit right here in this thread, I'm sure but that's how you figure shit out, right?

I realize as the "defacto" race, deeper understanding to my shit is imposed. Sorry about that. I also don't expect you to really have a deeper understanding of how they do shit in the south or NOLA or in Italian families. I just share. If you care to explore that, feel free. If you say something uninformed, I'll gently correct and inform. If you say something dumb or nasty, I'll less-than-gently correct.

Isn't that an okay system?

[Placid Dingo]

People interact with a shitton of new information every day.

Cultural understanding could easily be a part o the message people receive daily. If it's valued.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

I think we can all agree you can see race when you meet someone, it's not really debatable it's just a fact.  I personally feel the difference between a racist and your regular citizen is that a racist only sees race and they stop right there, your regular person, while seeing race does not make that a factor in basing their opinion on the person.

[AFK]

I think that is actually a problem with racists is that they don't see the culture along with the race.  Or, they don't have an understanding any deeper than whatever superficial bullshit they see on TV.  That has certainly been the case with anyone in America who has origins in the Middle East.  That's the case in my area where your average racist doesn't see a difference between an African-American and a Somali refugee. 

Because when you get a deeper understanding of cultures, you will have a better understanding of the true person, and very likely, discover you have far more in common with that person than you ever would have dreamed of.

I feel that's unrealistic for your avg. "Workaday troubadour."

It's not anyone's job to seek "deeper understanding" of other people's worlds. You can't do that for every single micro-community AND OH GOD WHERE DOES IT STOP? THE IRISH? THE MANY DIFFERENT VERNACULARS OF THE ENGLISH?

Also, I think it's insulting unless it comes from a bona fide desire to gain a deeper understanding.

Why can't we just ask questions and try to do better and BE better every day? Why are we afraid of making mistakes? Gaffes? Fuck, I've said some dumb shit right here in this thread, I'm sure but that's how you figure shit out, right?

I realize as the "defacto" race, deeper understanding to my shit is imposed. Sorry about that. I also don't expect you to really have a deeper understanding of how they do shit in the south or NOLA or in Italian families. I just share. If you care to explore that, feel free. If you say something uninformed, I'll gently correct and inform. If you say something dumb or nasty, I'll less-than-gently correct.

Isn't that an okay system?

When I say "deeper understanding", I'm not suggesting everyone needs to be able to write a 5 page thesis on the cultural background of every person they meet.  It's like the example I gave.  It should be fairly easy to understand, just through a short conversation, that a black person born and raised in America is very different from someone who was born and raised in Somalia and has been living in America for all of about 4 weeks. 

And yes, you can learn more by asking questions, engaging in conversation.  The racist won't do that.  The racist will formulate their hypothesis and solidify their theory without gathering more input. 

[navkat]

I agree with you on all toast points...except...

NO OFFENSE, GUISE, OKAY? BUT
Realistically, that's bullshit.

"Higher awareness?"
"Deeper understanding?" Wtf does that mean to the practical application of not being assholes to each other? It's contrived hogwash. It's catchphrases and watchwords. You may as well say "Give a hoot, don't pollute!" to people cause it's going to have the same effect...yes, even on the well-meaning "enlightened" ones. People get complacent.

I feel like running around oblivious is a much more honest incarnation of not being assholes and twats to each other. The best way to not be an asshole is...SURPRISE, to simply go about your business not being an asshole! If you fuck up, fix it. If you step on someone's foot, say "sorry." If you feel like you have to pass people in a tight space and you might be imposing, say "excuse me."

Do not be an asshole.
Do not tolerate people being flagrant assholes around you.

Why is this such a big deal?

I have yet to read Kai's thingy btw.

NO OFFENSE, GUISE. EXCUSE ME. SORRY.

Okay.

[navkat]

Oh, god. My ass is gonna get sooo reamed.