Messages

did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.

There is no fucking difference.

Word.  Same thing.

And how did she "actively" catch his eye?  I don't get that part.

the actively part was my misconception of what you meant with cacthing his eye and what caused my response of "yes."
I now realize i was being very dense there.
let me explain with another example:
if i walk in a dark and unsafe street and get mugged i am responsible for walking there, let me explain further:
i am responsible for the wear and tear i am inflicting on the street, i am responsible for breating the air there, i am in no way responsible for getting mugged. i could walk there juggling bars of gold(i couldn't for i am not that strong and i do not own any gold but thats beside the point) buttnaked and too drunk to notice the "mug me" note tacked to my back and it still wouldn't be my fault.
same point.

i apologize for the misunderstanding.

assuming all other acts are less bad(or neutral or good)?
so the worst actor is the one on whom all the responsibilty falls.
Are those that do not help the rape victim responsible for what happened within their realm of influence or not?

Nope.  The initial bad actor is the one on whom the responsibility falls.

And the 17th century wants its views on rape back.

really? i always feel like punching the people that just stand around watching bad things happen without interfering. they are not equally responsible but they are responsible for not improving the situation.

oh and responsibilty =/= blame

wow I can't even count the ways that is retarded

"level of resistance..?"
should have bulked up in the gym before hand?

no i'm talking at the moment... it is a retarded point though sorry for that one.

When the obvious choice (save your own ass, fuck the car) is the ONLY choice, you don't have a choice.  Get it?  You.  Don't.  Have.  A.  Choice.  Responsibility ORVER.

Unless you're:  1) from the medieval times 2) from Afghanistan (same thing) or 3) the insurance company.

1. imagine a slightly les obvious choice.
2. is there a real choice now?
IF no GOTO 1.
IF yes voilá! responsibility starts at this point.

did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.(hypothetical situation as i perceived it, i'm not saying its usually like that)  Its not a bad thing she did that and i'm not saying she's responsible for anything that someone else chose to do. you do not chose to get raped so thats not the victims fault.
Have i made myself clear?

choice requires the power to influence the result, with power comes responsibility. go read the first spiderman comic.
you are responsible for the results of your choices.

i'm repeating myself.

There's no choice in avoiding an accident on the road and saving your life, either.  Who fucking cares about the car?

See, I think you are picking out minutia that in the end, don't fucking matter, and shouldn't matter, and if they do, in the scheme of things, that person focusing on it should just shoot themselves and get it over with because life is too damned short to live like that.

very well the easiest choices aren't choices, but at what point does linear causality dissolve into choice?
or are there no choices?

shit happens and how you handle shit happening is your responsibility.

Bullshit.  A bad act by one renders all of the consequences - and responsibility - on that one.

assuming all other acts are less bad(or neutral or good)?
so the worst actor is the one on whom all the responsibilty falls.
Are those that do not help the rape victim responsible for what happened within their realm of influence or not?

i hereby declare Regret a RETARD

i love you too.

Question:  why does any of it have to be ANYbody's fault?

Why can't it just be circumstance?   There ARE such things as unintentional consequences, and therefore no fault.  Sounds to me, Regret, as if you are having problems accepting that sometimes, shit just happens.

shit happens and how you handle shit happening is your responsibility.

where there is choice there is responsibility.

That's all I needed to hear.

crap. i knew someone was gonna jump on that one.
the reason i said yes is because catching is an active word so its something you do, and therefore i assumed you have the choice not to do it. if you have no choice in the matter then its something else but the situations where you have no choice are rarer then you think.

Yeah, that's like saying it's our faults we were born.  No logic.

there's no choice in being born.

Regret postulates that, for example, a man who throws himself in front of a bullet intended for another is a suicide, rather than the shooter simply being a murderer.

its suicide for the hero and murder for the shooter. there IS such a thing as shared responsibility. if the hero wasn't responsible for his actions that implies he had no choice. so why call him a hero then?

wow.

of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.

So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?

yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.

Wouldn't a slave's philosophy be 'i only did it because i had to'?

No.  A slave's philosophy is "It's my fault, no matter what".
I prefer a philosophy like "Its my fault, so what? i had a choice and i made it."

that is what you are saying: 'the milkman's actions dictated my own' or 'i had no choice, the milkman made me do it'

When the milk man aims a 2 ton truck at you, what are your fucking options, and who is fucking responsible for the situation?

your options are avoid or die. the milkman is responsible for the situation and you are responsible for the effects of choosing to live.

it's unethical to not save, the action needed to save is also unethical, choose wich you find more important,

If there's no ethical solution, then I'm looking next to liability.  Fuck him.

That's a great world you envision, there.

there is no absolute ethical solution but there is a most ethical solution, assuming you have some form of honour ofcourse.
oh and don't you ever dare us me as an ethical guide TEFY, S!

of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.

Wouldn't a slave's philosophy be 'i only did it because i had to'?
that is what you are saying: 'the milkman's actions dictated my own' or 'i had no choice, the milkman made me do it'
the slave is responsible for everything he does or doesn't (like get a fucking knife and use it!)


it's unethical to not save, the action needed to save is also unethical, choose wich you find more important, do it and don't lie to yourself about what you did.
followed by the most important step: get over it, you made your choice.

So you're have a means/ends sort of deal.

that is one way this could go.
i'm (partly) trying to find out how(and if) people incorporate individual responsibility into their lives.

Its the milkman's fault that your choices were limited, but you are still the one who made the choice of not dying in a bloody milkshake.
You are still responsible for the consequences of your actions.

not that anyone remotely humane would actually hate you for that.


you wouldn't keep your best friend from commiting suicide because i would think you should apologize for doing something unethical while trying to save his life? hmmmm interesting...

this serious thread was specifically created too prove that i hate you, now go away.



worse, i had an actual discussion....  i hate it when people still disagree with me when i stop talking. besides i dont have a car.

other example: your best friend has been depressed lately and wants to kill himself.
You decide to tape him to a chair and feed him antidepressants(hmmm chocolate) 'till he gests better.
Result: you mistreated your best friend but you kept him from making a mistake.

My opinion: You should apologize for the ducttape-incident.

PS. this opinion pissed off my niece... she had a suicide intervention thingy a few years ago.

How severe would the reason have to be to make the fact that you had a choice irrelevant?

Example: you're driving someone else's car and a milktruck is coming straight at you.
You decide to avoid the milktruck and drive straight into the river.
Result: Car ruined but you're still alive.

My opinion: its still your fault the car is ruined.

ehmmm TGRR you do know you're not human right?
and any kids you have would be hybrids and most hybrids are infertile.
this proves that timetravel won't be available for 2 more generations.

Ooooooh! sun! i know what i'm doing tomorrow.

shame is gay

i figured i'd solve this discussion by looking up the exact definition...
one of these days i should start remembering that dictionaries give uses of words, not definitions.

there are a lot of definitions, you are using this one:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fascism
2.  Oppressive, dictatorial control.

just to be annoying i'll state that i use this one:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Fascism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Political philosophy that became predominant in Italy and then Germany during the 1920s and 1930s; attacked weakness of democracy, corruption of capitalism; promised vigorous foreign and military programs; undertook state control of economy to reduce social friction. (p. 870)

and mine is RIGHT and TRUE ofcourse.


i like your implied  fascism is society's natural response to its own tremendous stupidity.

[The Iconoclast's Manifesto]

naah its good this way, adding more text would reduce the readability.
i'm putting this on my wall with only this small change:

The Iconoclast's Manifesto

   We reserve the right to hold heretical viewpoints that you find abominable. We hold true that anyone who feels justified in attacking an individual because they have an unpopular opinion can fuck off and die.

   We identify ourselves by our willingness to challenge the accepted dogma, theory, doctrine, or paradigm regardless of the consequences to our social status. We acknowledge that the positions we take may result in our being subjected to more intolerance than conventional wisdom would suggest is wise, but we find ourselves refuting conventional wisdom remarkably often.

   While we generally try to take positions that are based on reasoned arguments, empirical evidence, historical precedents, or any combination thereof, we reserve the right to play devil's advocate just to piss you off and destroy any notion you might have that your ideas are universally applicable.

   We acknowledge that the original use of the term iconoclast specifically refers to the destruction of religious icons, but we may choose to attack cherished beliefs relating to anything, including but not limited to politics, art, religion, philosophy, and identity.

   We reserve the right to change or violate the terms of this manifesto as the individual iconoclast deems fit.

   We reserve all rights, period.