Dear Nigel, Garbo, Signora, and Pixie...Hear me out for just a second

[Juana]

I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.

You have to remember that while I am not stupid, I am a little dense.  I keep hearing variations on the above, but I don't know what it means.  Work together?  Great.  But in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  I want to work together, but I have no idea what to DO to work together.  There's no task list.

So we come back around to the male "find a fix" predicament.  I know I'm doin' it wrong, but I don't know why.

"Find a fix" isn't the problem (ime, that's how guys show they care; they took the time to try to think up what might work). It's more like trying to find a fix without consulting the people you want to work with (which I have observed enfranchised groups like men, white people, and heterosexuals doing - oh, you silly women/PoC/queers, lemme help you, you poor sad little things).

Is this that "sarcasm" thing I've heard about? 

Yeah, I can see how that would drive someone right out of their tree. 

Possibly.

That's entirely dependent on the context (supporting someone you know pretty well will be different than offering support to someone you don't, plus the context of whatever event it is causing you to want to offer your support), BUT I would venture to say things like "I can understand that"/"that's understandable" (both imply empathy rather than jacking the experience, although if it IS something you have experience with, I think you'd be okay to share that if you feel comfortable doing so) and asking something like "is there anything I can do?" (indicates that you understand that s/he may not actually want help or that you know they might want something specific, aka you want to help but are not forcing them to accept it, which is, in itself, incredibly helpful).

I'm not sure I can force anyone to accept anything.  I'm reasonably certain - though I may very well be wrong - that I haven't tried.  At least recently.

Also, the problem is that I CAN'T "understand that".  Believe me when I say that I am not being pissy here.  I am convinced merely by the level of frustration on both sides that men DON'T understand what women deal with.

I have to take off for a little bit, but I'll be back and finish my answer.

Okay.  Because I'm still sorta lost, here.

"Trying to force" would be more accurate of me to say (again, see the "you poor benighted creatures, let me do it for you" thing) which I have not observed you doing here.

Could you explain that a little more?

Which, being lost or trying to force people to do things?

The lost bit:  I try to do what I think is right.  Only what I think is right seems to come off as insulting and/or condescending, or COULD come off as insulting or condescending.  All I know is that everyone should be able to live their lives the way they want to, and I don't put up with people dictating other peoples' lives to them in my presence¹.  Not because I feel the need to rush to the rescue, but because it offends me.

Forcing people to do things:  I try not to do this.  I may force people to NOT do things (see above), but they can always go run their fucking nozzles somewhere else.  Just not around me.  I am really a reasonable guy, when I am not being offended by screwheads and fundamentalist swine.  I'd be more reasonable if said screwheads would all just move to another country.  Utah, maybe.





¹  For ANY reason.  No, it is NOT okay to tell my children to say grace, if they don't feel the need to do so (I don't speak to many of my relatives, because of shit like this).  No, it is NOT okay to talk about "faggots" in MY Goddamn maintenance bay.  No, it is NOT okay to walk into my office and talk about that "domineering bitch" in the front office (I don't care for her myself, most days, but that is NOT FUCKING ACCEPTABLE IN A WORK ENVIRONMENT.  It's fucking unprofessional, in addition to being fucking retarded.  An asshole is an asshole.  Her plumbing has nothing to fucking do with it.)

I don't say this because I want to look like some "modern man", I say it because people PISS ME OFF WITH IRRELEVANCIES.  I don't want to talk to them about IMPORTANT SHIT, let alone this garbage.  I don't want to hear their shit.  Am I wrong in this?

The "can't understand" bit.

Lost: what exactly are you doing?

Forcing:

Footnote: I think you're mostly doing it right by not tolerating that shit. But part of that, if it isn't already, IWA ought to be because it's jackass behavior directed at disenfranchised groups in order to make them shut up and obey.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Footnote: I think you're mostly doing it right by not tolerating that shit. But part of that, if it isn't already, IWA ought to be because it's jackass behavior directed at disenfranchised groups in order to make them shut up and obey.

Part of it is; as I say, it offends me because it's stupid and it's bullying horseshit.  It's kicking someone when they're down, just because you can.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That you DO get it, but are not sure yet how to incorporate that into action.

Understand first, action later.  I don't mean "use my ignorance as an excuse turn away from injustice", I mean "know what the hell I'm talking about before taking proactive measures."  As I have said, in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  First, do not make the situation worse through blundering. 

For my brother, all I could do was listen while he talked, tell him he was a good person, and tell other people that he was a good person. I could show my support by writing him letters and sharing poetry with him. There might have been more that I could do, but if there was I never figured it out.

I suspect there isn't.  Most vets seem to view themselves either as TROO MURRIKAN HEROES or as monsters.  I really suspect that most of the first group is just yelling really loud so they can pretend that they aren't in the second group. 

But having your sister tell you you're okay probably didn't hurt a bit.  My great uncles (all WWII vets) were the only ones I could turn to, and they stuffed a bottle of booze in my hand and said, "So...Where've you been, boy?"  I understood immediately why the VFW is so important in America, even though I was in fact sitting in my grandfather's kitchen in Canada.  I got stupid drunk and jabbered and bawled all night.  So did they...46 years after their war was over. 

They said I was in the club, and may God have mercy on our souls.  They said I was one of them, a horrible golem come back to haunt everyone else, to tell them how the butcher's bill gets paid...Not by words, but by the mere fact of my very survival. They were some really fucked up old men, but I wasn't exactly in a position to complain.  They're all dead now, but I'll never forget that night as long as I live.

My suggestion has probably been made by every intern before me, and would have resulted in a lot of eye-rolling and probably some snarky comments after I left the room.

Sounds like you're in good company, then.  You only made the same mistake as a bunch of really, really decent people who COULD have used their college time to get an MBA and fuck these same people over...But chose not to do so.

So I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

I'd rather have someone try to empathyze or to help and fail (frustrating though it may be), than to pretend that nothing is wrong.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Over all, I know that you and I have had some frustrated moments with each other in this conversation, but as always, one thing that I REALLY appreciate about you is that although you're stubborn, strong-willed, and passionate, you always maintain a hunger to learn and a willingness to admit to being wrong, and that's something I find incredibly admirable. Quite honestly, I look up to you for it and it inspires me to work to be a better person.

Thanks.  But I don't think I'm so much "stubborn" as "thick-headed".  It takes some doing to drive a new idea through my skull...And when it's halfway through, it itches really badly, like some monster tick that's jammed into my cranium, and I can't quit picking at it until it's either all the way in, or considered and rejected.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

1. Yes, basically. I at one point tried to explain the difference between sympathetic understanding (intellectually knowing what a situation is like) and empathetic understanding (having experienced what a situation is like), and I think that's an important distinction, because when we say "REALLY understand" we are talking about the empathetic understanding. No one who has not experienced another person's situation can understand it empathetically, unless you're Wyldkat and have mahadgiqual powerz.

2. Yes, and sometimes suggestions are desirable, but it's important when you're dealing with anyone you view as an equal to avoid coming across as paternal or condescending. Case in point, advising women to change their personal individual behavior in a conversation about patriarchy is about as useful as advising kids to avoid backtalking their teachers in a conversation about changing the school-to-prison pipeline. Even less so, actually, since we're adults and if you view us as equals it's probably safe to assume we already know more than you do about coping/avoiding mechanisms, since we have to employ them on a regular basis as part of our set of basic survival skills.

3. This really depends. If you have ideas for ways to change society to make it more equitable, please talk about it! If, however, your suggestions are about how we ought to think/act differently in order to be more pleasing to men or avoid male wrath, that's going to be pretty unwanted. If there is an element of the feminist/egalitarian movement you would like to see changed, probably the best way to accomplish that is to avoid anything that smacks of "You're doing it wrong" and instead to ask questions like "Why are you doing it that way?" and "Are you concerned about backlash?" so that you can really understand the methods and reasons before suggesting alternatives. Because, bottom line, social movements are about the people at the bottom, and those who are not at the bottom but wish to help really, really need to let the people at the bottom exercise their voice and control.

Okay, good.  I was getting sick of yelling my ears off.   

Now I gotta think.

[Juana]

Footnote: I think you're mostly doing it right by not tolerating that shit. But part of that, if it isn't already, IWA ought to be because it's jackass behavior directed at disenfranchised groups in order to make them shut up and obey.

Part of it is; as I say, it offends me because it's stupid and it's bullying horseshit.  It's kicking someone when they're down, just because you can.

I musta missed that, haha.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Footnote: I think you're mostly doing it right by not tolerating that shit. But part of that, if it isn't already, IWA ought to be because it's jackass behavior directed at disenfranchised groups in order to make them shut up and obey.

Part of it is; as I say, it offends me because it's stupid and it's bullying horseshit.  It's kicking someone when they're down, just because you can.

I musta missed that, haha.

There's a better than average chance I didn't spell it out, because Richter made me laugh last night and I ate the wrong pills.  Which I then had to bludgeon down with the right pills.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That you DO get it, but are not sure yet how to incorporate that into action.

Understand first, action later.  I don't mean "use my ignorance as an excuse turn away from injustice", I mean "know what the hell I'm talking about before taking proactive measures."  As I have said, in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  First, do not make the situation worse through blundering. 

For my brother, all I could do was listen while he talked, tell him he was a good person, and tell other people that he was a good person. I could show my support by writing him letters and sharing poetry with him. There might have been more that I could do, but if there was I never figured it out.

I suspect there isn't.  Most vets seem to view themselves either as TROO MURRIKAN HEROES or as monsters.  I really suspect that most of the first group is just yelling really loud so they can pretend that they aren't in the second group. 

But having your sister tell you you're okay probably didn't hurt a bit.  My great uncles (all WWII vets) were the only ones I could turn to, and they stuffed a bottle of booze in my hand and said, "So...Where've you been, boy?"  I understood immediately why the VFW is so important in America, even though I was in fact sitting in my grandfather's kitchen in Canada.  I got stupid drunk and jabbered and bawled all night.  So did they...46 years after their war was over. 

They said I was in the club, and may God have mercy on our souls.  They said I was one of them, a horrible golem come back to haunt everyone else, to tell them how the butcher's bill gets paid...Not by words, but by the mere fact of my very survival. They were some really fucked up old men, but I wasn't exactly in a position to complain.  They're all dead now, but I'll never forget that night as long as I live.

My suggestion has probably been made by every intern before me, and would have resulted in a lot of eye-rolling and probably some snarky comments after I left the room.

Sounds like you're in good company, then.  You only made the same mistake as a bunch of really, really decent people who COULD have used their college time to get an MBA and fuck these same people over...But chose not to do so.

So I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

I'd rather have someone try to empathyze or to help and fail (frustrating though it may be), than to pretend that nothing is wrong.

My brother saw himself as a monster, and it destroyed him. If I had been older, I might have been able to convince him that he could use what he knew, however much it haunted him, because it haunted him, to make the world a better place. But when a kid is 22 and his big sister is 25 there's not enough experience or wisdom between the two of them to go around.

I have to revise something, which is my statement that people can only experience empathetic understanding if we can relate an experience to a very similar experience of our own. It was that "Midsummer Night's Dream" thing in the lecture Rat linked to that changed my mind about that. Human beings have a really special, unique ability that is deeply related to our most fundamental technology, language. We have the ability to transport ourselves into someone else's reality through stories, especially stories that are acted out by players. While we may never really KNOW what it's like to be the character in a story, we can, far more than other animals, genuinely feel frightened, hurt, betrayed, triumphant, and even fall in love, via stories.

I think maybe this is the true value of really listening.

I also think I may have to revise my opinion of TV. Not of the way it's used, but of why people can't seem to help loving it. I think it exploits a very, very beneficial and human part of our nature, which is the ability to empathize and relate through listening to or watching stories being acted out. It's such an elemental form of human communication, history keeping, and learning... I can't believe I never made that connection before.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That you DO get it, but are not sure yet how to incorporate that into action.

Understand first, action later.  I don't mean "use my ignorance as an excuse turn away from injustice", I mean "know what the hell I'm talking about before taking proactive measures."  As I have said, in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  First, do not make the situation worse through blundering. 

For my brother, all I could do was listen while he talked, tell him he was a good person, and tell other people that he was a good person. I could show my support by writing him letters and sharing poetry with him. There might have been more that I could do, but if there was I never figured it out.

I suspect there isn't.  Most vets seem to view themselves either as TROO MURRIKAN HEROES or as monsters.  I really suspect that most of the first group is just yelling really loud so they can pretend that they aren't in the second group. 

But having your sister tell you you're okay probably didn't hurt a bit.  My great uncles (all WWII vets) were the only ones I could turn to, and they stuffed a bottle of booze in my hand and said, "So...Where've you been, boy?"  I understood immediately why the VFW is so important in America, even though I was in fact sitting in my grandfather's kitchen in Canada.  I got stupid drunk and jabbered and bawled all night.  So did they...46 years after their war was over. 

They said I was in the club, and may God have mercy on our souls.  They said I was one of them, a horrible golem come back to haunt everyone else, to tell them how the butcher's bill gets paid...Not by words, but by the mere fact of my very survival. They were some really fucked up old men, but I wasn't exactly in a position to complain.  They're all dead now, but I'll never forget that night as long as I live.

My suggestion has probably been made by every intern before me, and would have resulted in a lot of eye-rolling and probably some snarky comments after I left the room.

Sounds like you're in good company, then.  You only made the same mistake as a bunch of really, really decent people who COULD have used their college time to get an MBA and fuck these same people over...But chose not to do so.

So I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

I'd rather have someone try to empathyze or to help and fail (frustrating though it may be), than to pretend that nothing is wrong.

My brother saw himself as a monster, and it destroyed him. If I had been older, I might have been able to convince him that he could use what he knew, however much it haunted him, because it haunted him, to make the world a better place. But when a kid is 22 and his big sister is 25 there's not enough experience or wisdom between the two of them to go around.

This is pretty much a true statement.  Thank God for my uncles.  Everyone else cared, but didn't know how to act or what to say or what to do.

I have to revise something, which is my statement that people can only experience empathetic understanding if we can relate an experience to a very similar experience of our own. It was that "Midsummer Night's Dream" thing in the lecture Rat linked to that changed my mind about that. Human beings have a really special, unique ability that is deeply related to our most fundamental technology, language. We have the ability to transport ourselves into someone else's reality through stories, especially stories that are acted out by players. While we may never really KNOW what it's like to be the character in a story, we can, far more than other animals, genuinely feel frightened, hurt, betrayed, triumphant, and even fall in love, via stories.

I think maybe this is the true value of really listening.

I also think I may have to revise my opinion of TV. Not of the way it's used, but of why people can't seem to help loving it. I think it exploits a very, very beneficial and human part of our nature, which is the ability to empathize and relate through listening to or watching stories being acted out. It's such an elemental form of human communication, history keeping, and learning... I can't believe I never made that connection before.

I'm still thinking it's a big glowy box that people watch so they'll know how to act.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have to revise something, which is my statement that people can only experience empathetic understanding if we can relate an experience to a very similar experience of our own. It was that "Midsummer Night's Dream" thing in the lecture Rat linked to that changed my mind about that. Human beings have a really special, unique ability that is deeply related to our most fundamental technology, language. We have the ability to transport ourselves into someone else's reality through stories, especially stories that are acted out by players. While we may never really KNOW what it's like to be the character in a story, we can, far more than other animals, genuinely feel frightened, hurt, betrayed, triumphant, and even fall in love, via stories.

I think maybe this is the true value of really listening.

I also think I may have to revise my opinion of TV. Not of the way it's used, but of why people can't seem to help loving it. I think it exploits a very, very beneficial and human part of our nature, which is the ability to empathize and relate through listening to or watching stories being acted out. It's such an elemental form of human communication, history keeping, and learning... I can't believe I never made that connection before.

I'm still thinking it's a big glowy box that people watch so they'll know how to act.

Like I said, "Not of the way it's used, but of why people can't seem to help loving it." It appeals to people on a very basic level because we're actually wired to learn how we're supposed to behave from stories. Television is an abuse of that wiring, but realizing why it works that way is going to make me view it differently.

[The Dark Monk]

I have to revise something, which is my statement that people can only experience empathetic understanding if we can relate an experience to a very similar experience of our own. It was that "Midsummer Night's Dream" thing in the lecture Rat linked to that changed my mind about that. Human beings have a really special, unique ability that is deeply related to our most fundamental technology, language. We have the ability to transport ourselves into someone else's reality through stories, especially stories that are acted out by players. While we may never really KNOW what it's like to be the character in a story, we can, far more than other animals, genuinely feel frightened, hurt, betrayed, triumphant, and even fall in love, via stories.

I think maybe this is the true value of really listening.

I also think I may have to revise my opinion of TV. Not of the way it's used, but of why people can't seem to help loving it. I think it exploits a very, very beneficial and human part of our nature, which is the ability to empathize and relate through listening to or watching stories being acted out. It's such an elemental form of human communication, history keeping, and learning... I can't believe I never made that connection before.

I'm still thinking it's a big glowy box that people watch so they'll know how to act.

Like I said, "Not of the way it's used, but of why people can't seem to help loving it." It appeals to people on a very basic level because we're actually wired to learn how we're supposed to behave from stories. Television is an abuse of that wiring, but realizing why it works that way is going to make me view it differently.

This. I always felt this way but couldn't put it together as such.
When people choose to live out "Days of our Lives" in their own little bubble then wonder why reactions aren't as such, they have watched too much, and too much could be one show depending on the person. (The reason I used Days of our Lives is for two reasons: One because it is utter shit. Two is because my uncles wife started watching it among Everyone Loves Raymond, and pulled the "abused" housewife act, when she has herself a couple million dollars and does what she wants at any point in time. So if once in a while she had to cook,((which she enjoyed doing for the record)) instant quotage and look at me attention whoring.)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sha-bam! Interesting to read these old threads and realize how much we've all changed and grown, in a surprisingly short amount of time.

[Doktor Howl]

Sha-bam! Interesting to read these old threads and realize how much we've all changed and grown, in a surprisingly short amount of time.

Yeah, Bearman got me looking at one or two of these.

[Cain]

I've not grown.  I've shrunk, especially around the waist.

I'm going to need me a big ol' belt at some point.  A BRO-ELT? Brelt?

[Ben Shapiro]

I like these threads it let's me know which are people I can all a friend. Let's me know who is capable of empathy, and who is willing to be humbled by reality.