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I hate both of you because your conversation is both navel-gazing and puerile

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Started by Cain, January 25, 2007, 09:39:52 PM

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LMNO

Quote from: Dags on May 19, 2007, 12:55:15 AM
Quote from: LMNO on May 17, 2007, 01:02:27 PM
First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.
I still find his way interesting enough to explore it some more. I am not
familiar with Gnosticism but in the most basic form is that of having
knowledge that others do not possess and possibly cannot possess.

As far as I can see it, ,Äúgnosis,Äù was more intended to imply a personal knowledge, a direct experience.  Whereas most of the Xtian church disseminated knowledge in a top-down way, with the priest telling the congregation what was True, the Gnostics decided that the only way to know Truth was to experience it themselves.

Even if the original intent of ,Äúgnosis,Äù was different than this, that is what the word eventually came to mean: a personal, directly experienced knowledge.  The difference between the BIP and Gnostics is that usually, gnosis implies that there is a god figure of some sort from which this Truth is gleaned.  The BIP doesn,Äôt make this claim, for various reasons.


Quote
Quote from: LMNO
By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.
Can you guess what I,Äôm going to say about this? If it,Äôs everything then
how do you differentiate it from what it,Äôs not?

Huh?

QuoteIf you can,Äôt make a distinction then you can,Äôt understand it apart from anything else; including reality. Everything is everything; is a tautology and tells you nothing about everything. If it feels, acts, and can,Äôt be differentiated from reality then it
must be reality or at least be treated as reality;

Oh, I get it.  You might have read too quickly.  I didn,Äôt say everything is everything, I said every system of thought and method of sensory interpretation that is used by you creates your BIP.  I did not say that every system of thought or method of sensory interpretation that exists in the world creates your BIP.

For example, if you,Äôre building a birdhouse and you go into your workshop, you,Äôll see hundreds of tools, from belt sanders to caulking guns to PVC pipe cutters to pickaxes.  But you won,Äôt usually use a pickaxe to make a birdhouse (unless you,Äôre making a wicked cool birdhouse).

In the same sort of way, there exists millions of different ways of understanding the universe.  Your BIP is created depending on which ones you choose, not all of them.

QuoteI also get confused (congratulations btw) in the way you explain BIP as a
meta-structure, framework, then just go ahead and add everything else
and this is your BIP? Why call it your BIP at all? Is it a project that has a
particular meaning or specific purpose or is BIP just whatever anyone just
wants it to be? If BIP is everything and anything that anyone cooks up and
calls it BIP or ,Äòtheir BIP,Äô then you can,Äôt distinguish it from what isn,Äôt BIP
absent the phrase. Therefore the concept of BIP becomes meaningless.
There is nothing to contrast it against. No background and no outside of it.

I disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isn,Äôt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you don,Äôt decode your experiences.

For example, if you,Äôre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If you,Äôre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

QuoteIt becomes then too emcompassing to be meaningful and therefore the
mind will reject it in favor of what seems at least to be more meaningful and more valid. Even if it isn't true.

Yup.  Law of Fives.

QuoteSo if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

You know I,Äôm gonna ask you to define ,Äútruth,,Äù right?

Right.


Quote
Quote from: LMNOAlso, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there. And what doesn't ring true?

just overall it didn,Äôt get in depth enough to engage me.

Yeah, I understand.  The BIP pamphlet was the first thing written, it hasn,Äôt been revised since we all started kicking it around.  I think we need a second edition to include stuff from the Wiki, etc.  Maybe someday.



P3nT4gR4m

Fact: I got booted from a gnosis-based board for swearing

Conclusion: Gnosis is for wankers

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"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Dags

#92
Apologies for the tangent on Gnosticism and religion in general. The way I see it worldviews apply here. Also I think the Black Iron Prison concept we are discussing goes beyond the distributable pamphlet version available for download. I'm attempting to combine three versions of the Black Iron Prison and despite the hits and misses here and there it seems doable to find some agreement between them all; if nothing more than a vague possibility I haven't discounted yet. I will try and limit references to religion here on out.

Quote from: LMNO on May 21, 2007, 01:29:28 PMI disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isn,Äôt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you don,Äôt decode your experiences.

For example, if you,Äôre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If you,Äôre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

There is encouragement to explore more domains of knowledge and aquire new skills and talents but the limitations to that could be self-imposed or due to other constraints; some maybe even preferable ones.

Consider life with no constraints whatsoever. (might sound nice to some folks) Then consider everyone alive without any constraints whatsoever. (maybe not so nice) Is it a meglomaniac that desires such a life? Limitations ( walls and bars ) if I understand this correctly doesn't sound like such a bad thing for folks like that. Maybe something simplier with no constraints like a person posting 1billion post a day? Why. Desire. No Limitations (walls and bars) Intriguing. Maybe worth more consideration...

I can't see getting much objection to stating that lots of people get the shit end of the stick in life. So maybe this has much to do with an underlying assumption within the BIP concept. We could be getting somewhere perhaps?

(Limitations sounds like it'd be a good name for a chapter in some book.)

Quote from: DagsSo if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

Quote from: LMNOYou know I,Äôm gonna ask you to define ,Äútruth,,Äù right?

Right.

I thought you would ask me about something else when actually you never brought it up? In this reply. Maybe something simplier for me to answer.

In the context of how I said it; 'true' is anyone's version of reality however they go about validating it. Whereas 'false' normally would be a worldview that is riddled with BS. (noted this is posted on an discordian forum.-heh)

If taken to mean 'truth' then maybe in the sense of the 'truth according to Garp or Joe or Dags or LMNO or whoever' arise contradictions about reality then what? All are true and none false? I know this presents a dichotomy but it's about nothing specific where other options may present themselves such as differences of perspective and such.   

Regarding the truth of BIP is it taken at face value? Without much questioning it's underlying assumptions. The first HIP took a look at a dissemination process where it's accepted without question as 'being cool'. Is 'accepted without questioning' what BIP is about? So what could make BIP false or an interpretation of BIP false? If it's nothing much then what does that say?

If each BIP is a personal expression of a persons 'system of thought'. This is what I meant by everything. Everything else can't intrude without being adopted into the schema a person already has. ( the mind can't focus on what it can't clearly see.) So if it's personal then what's outside of one's schema might as well not exist. How does BIP include others when the only walls between us are our windows of perception; so to speak. How can one person say another persons interpretation is BS without resorting to some other philosophy, without saying one philosophy is better than the other? This is more at the part where you say it doesn't conflict from one 'system of thought' to another. Each can accept the concept without contradiction. ( Yet consider their reality as something less than the real thing and just some abstraction that happens to be different from other abstractions; neither being more true or a sort of I can take it or leave it since it's not really real.-heh or something) This mainly towards the 'systems of thought' you've mentioned. So... then is the second HIP ModL of Joe's interpretation of BIP correct then as he sees it with American Idol being his Black Iron Prison? You see where I'm going with this?

Is this the everything is true? Discordian mindflip? If so then yes; anything goes. ie;What happens to people when they die? Whatever they believe will happen. Why are we here? We are here for whatever you think we are here for. It's a philosophy of the whatevers or something? Do I think this is true? Who cares? Right. So anyways... I think eventually I'll get to my point on this one because I can't say it's a simple thing to answer; at least for me.

So far as I can tell none of the above then contradicts the BIP you explain when you say all systems of thought are basically valid. (ie; true) This all of the above here is the longer version of what I meant by 'true'.

I see no mechanism within the BIP framework to weed out the BS from what your telling me? Like what I said above is it BS or not? What standard would you use to know? Is the ModL HIP of Joe's BIP in my last post valid according to BIP. ( ← does that last sentence make an sense )

It even get's worse. When someone like Laz reads BIP and came to his conclusions about it according to his/her/it's system of thought it was railed against; By what mechanism within the BIP's philosophies and such would  Laz understand he had made an error in his reasoning? To say someone has made an error in reasoning requires a standard of truth does it not?

Quote
Quote from: LMNOAlso, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there. And what doesn't ring true?

just overall it didn,Äôt get in depth enough to engage me.

QuoteYeah, I understand.  The BIP pamphlet was the first thing written, it hasn,Äôt been revised since we all started kicking it around.  I think we need a second edition to include stuff from the Wiki, etc.  Maybe someday.

It didn't engage me more specifically because BIP sounded like it was seeking a certain type of target. I didn't feel like I fitted the demographic; so to speak. Like I said earlier most of the BIP specifics didn't ring true with me (specifically) but perhaps I'm somewhat familiar with the target in mind.

Maybe those 'plugged in' and unaware of it.  This is my main source of interest in the project btw. I'd like to one day be a critical thinking mechanic or something like that. You know? Or just be able to reply to something without feeling like I left out way too much. Anyways if you don't ask much on the next reply I'll just let it be. You know I've been gone so long that it's actually pretty good I'm checking it out since I have no clue of much else going on. So my take on BIP is pretty damn blind!-heh Unlike Laz though I found the BIP intriguing and wondered if it could unshackle some minds? Pretty excited at the thought actually. Then RWHN made me wonder if I had possibly missed something and it could apply to me? I still don't know like I said pre-empting this reply; it's a vague possibility I haven't discounted yet.

Well alright LMNO that's it for the edits. Thanks for reading man. I hope I gave you something to consider and if not. I'll keep fishing around.-heh

- Dags

note: The HIP (Humourous Interludes Perhaps) in the earlier post were meant as ideas of mine towards the Lollercaust or whatever if not verbatim just some ideas or something. If they are funny, if not (skip it). I can't tell one way or the other.

note: Laz stuff mentioned here is not a direct verbal assault I assure him if he/she/it read this post. Just a point of interest from recent post I've read about it.

Wherever in there.

note: Bye. Bye.

LMNO

I think I'm gonna have to break this up into 3 different replies.

Lemme work on it a bit.

LMNO

Reply 1:

Quote from: Dags on May 22, 2007, 03:56:49 AM
Quote from: LMNO on May 21, 2007, 01:29:28 PMI disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isn,Äôt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you don,Äôt decode your experiences.

For example, if you,Äôre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If you,Äôre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

There is encouragement to explore more domains of knowledge and acquire new skills and talents but the limitations to that could be self-imposed or due to other constraints; some maybe even preferable ones.

Yup.  Nowhere was it said that you should destroy everything in your cell.  In addition, some parts of your cell can,Äôt be changed, like the ability of your eye to see only within a narrow range of the light spectrum.

QuoteConsider life with no constraints whatsoever. (might sound nice to some folks) Then consider everyone alive without any constraints whatsoever. (maybe not so nice) Is it a meglomaniac that desires such a life? Limitations ( walls and bars ) if I understand this correctly doesn't sound like such a bad thing for folks like that. Maybe something simplier with no constraints like a person posting 1billion post a day? Why. Desire. No Limitations (walls and bars) Intriguing. Maybe worth more consideration...

Again, don,Äôt get into the idea that the BIP is a negative thing.  There is potential for it to be negative, if that,Äôs the way your cell is structured.  Think about the Hodge and the Podge, the balance of Order and Disorder.  A cell without walls would imply that there were no filters on the vast amount of sensory data assaulting your nerves. 

The whole point of the BIP, to me, isn,Äôt that we should rid ourselves of our limitations, but we should realize that a sizeable amount of those limitations can be changed and improved.  It might be inescapable, but we can mostly choose what to do with it. 

I believe someone, Cain, DJR, or Jenne, came up with a ,Äúreconstruction/architecture,Äù meme/essay.

Cain

Actually, you say we cannot change certain aspects....but what about genetic technology/transhumanism?

New discussion possibility?

LMNO

Speculative, but maybe.


Since it hasn't happened yet, we won't know what changes it will bring to the psychology of the matter.

Reminds me of the end of 2001.  The book, that is.  Where he spent dozens of pages imagining different alien cultures.

P3nT4gR4m

as opposed to the film where Kubrick spent dozens of minutes imagining different acid trips

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

LMNO


LMNO

Part 2

Quote from: DagsSo if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!
Quote from: LMNOYou know I,Äôm gonna ask you to define ,Äútruth,,Äù right?

Right.

In the context of how I said it; 'true' is anyone's version of reality however they go about validating it. Whereas 'false' normally would be a worldview that is riddled with BS. (noted this is posted on an discordian forum.-heh)

First off, I,Äôd make a distinction between a scientific truth and a cultural truth.  A scientific truth holds up no matter what your BIP is shaped like.  Gravity, for instance.

A cultural truth would be the place where people,Äôs BIP overlap.  Please see the diagram below:


While each of these four individuals have unique BIPs (identified by color), they all agree/filter the same things (identified in black).

In this way, a cultural truth can be considered more of an agreement, and could easily lead to game rules that solidify these agreements into some sort of ,Äúlaw,Äù.

QuoteIf taken to mean 'truth' then maybe in the sense of the 'truth according to Garp or Joe or Dags or LMNO or whoever' arise contradictions about reality then what? All are true and none false? I know this presents a dichotomy but it's about nothing specific where other options may present themselves such as differences of perspective and such. 

If I understand what you said, when conflicts of ,Äútruth,Äù arise, the first thing that should be done is to figure out what kind of truth you,Äôre referring to.  If it,Äôs scientific, then the answer can possibly be achieved through experiment and observation.

If it,Äôs cultural, then the conflict might be resolved by assessing the merits of both using parameters such as usefulness, beauty, efficiency, logical cohesion, or lail (entirely according to a specific situation of course).  Often, both ideas can be true, and also exist together (giving you the third option you seemed to be searching for).

QuoteRegarding the truth of BIP is it taken at face value? Without much questioning it's underlying assumptions. The first HIP took a look at a dissemination process where it's accepted without question as 'being cool'. Is 'accepted without questioning' what BIP is about? So what could make BIP false or an interpretation of BIP false? If it's nothing much then what does that say?

THE BIP IS ALWAYS TRUE.


Heh.

Actually, I,Äôm just describing a metaphor for an idea about how people process the information they receive.  It,Äôs not scientific, so I suppose it,Äôs more or less cultural.  Can it be false?  I suppose, if you think that your brain processes things differently.  Can there be a false interpretation of the BIP?  Yes, because the BIP contains certain agreed-upon game rules, loose as they may be.  See Silly,Äôs and my discussion as an example.

LMNO

Next part of response:







For this part, I think I,Äôm gonna have to break this down bit by bit.
QuoteIf each BIP is a personal expression of a persons 'system of thought'.
Pretty much, yeah.
QuoteEverything else can't intrude without being adopted into the schema a person already has. ( the mind can't focus on what it can't clearly see.)
Experiences are filtered by the BIP, yes.
QuoteSo if it's personal then what's outside of one's schema might as well not exist.
No, because a person does not live in isolation.  They live in a society where other people are reacting to experiences differently.  In this way, by perceiving the actions of other,Äôs experiences, you gain insight into things outside your schema.  When the actions you perceive do not sit well within your filter, you either reject them, or synthesize them.
QuoteHow does BIP include others when the only walls between us are our windows of perception; so to speak.
As in the diagram in the last post, BIPs can overlap.  Especially with the biological/scientific truths.  There might be some psychological dissonance, but the underlying actions are similar.
QuoteHow can one person say another persons interpretation is BS without resorting to some other philosophy, without saying one philosophy is better than the other?
Why would you want to say one is better than the other in the first place?  However, if you wanted to, you could set up a definition of what ,Äúbetter,Äù means, and then put both philosophies in a situation to see which achieves that definition more.

QuoteThis is more at the part where you say it doesn't conflict from one 'system of thought' to another. Each can accept the concept without contradiction.
,ÄúIt,Äù meaning the BIP, I presume.  A Capitalist can accept the BIP as easily as the Marxist, provided they accept their economic ideas as elements of their reality grids, rather than Ultimate Truths.

Quote( Yet consider their reality as something less than the real thing and just some abstraction that happens to be different from other abstractions; neither being more true or a sort of I can take it or leave it since it's not really real.-heh or something)
Pretty much, although you,Äôre playing fast and loose with the definition of ,Äútruth,Äù and ,Äúreal,Äù.
QuoteThis mainly towards the 'systems of thought' you've mentioned. So... then is the second HIP ModL of Joe's interpretation of BIP correct then as he sees it with American Idol being his Black Iron Prison? You see where I'm going with this?
Can American Idol be Joe,Äôs entire BIP?  Hell, no.  He,Äôd be insane.  However, there,Äôs no reason that American Idol couldn,Äôt shape the way you think about things, or affect your perceptions.  Clay Aiken,Äôs very career is based on that.
QuoteIs this the everything is true? Discordian mindflip? If so then yes; anything goes.
You mean the misquoting of Hassan I Sabbah? Not really.  Remember how I defined ,Äúsocial truth,Äù: a bunch of people more or less agreeing on something.  Not everything goes, because everything is not agreed upon.  Raping and killing children was part of Ted Bundy,Äôs BIP.  That didn,Äôt make his actions ,Äútrue,Äù.
Quoteie;What happens to people when they die? Whatever they believe will happen.
Meaningless statement, due to lack of evidence.  You can believe something, but that doesn,Äôt mean it actually happens anywhere in the Universe except in your own mind.
QuoteWhy are we here? We are here for whatever you think we are here for.
Sure.  Just remember, so is everyone else, and you actually have to exist next to them.
QuoteIt's a philosophy of the whatevers or something? Do I think this is true? Who cares? Right.
You should care for two reasons: One, because if it,Äôs not scientifically true, you could die very quickly.  Two, if it,Äôs not socially true, you could die very quickly.  This is not to say you should conform to the consensus agreement of your society.  It is to say that you should be aware of any repercussions that may arise due to conflicts with social truths.
QuoteSo far as I can tell none of the above then contradicts the BIP you explain when you say all systems of thought are basically valid. (ie; true)
Ah.  I see what you,Äôre saying.  You understand me too quickly.  To me the BIP does not judge truth.  The BIP does not validate your beliefs.  The BIP does not discern right and wrong.

The BIP is a model that describes how a human being perceives and interprets external stimuli.

QuoteI see no mechanism within the BIP framework to weed out the BS from what your telling me?
That,Äôs because this is not the function of the BIP.  You can use structures inside the BIP to make decisions of Truth.
QuoteWhat standard would you use to know?
I particularly enjoy Maybe Logic, but that,Äôs just me.
QuoteIs the ModL HIP of Joe's BIP in my last post valid according to BIP. ( ← does that last sentence make an sense )
No.

QuoteIt even get's worse. When someone like Laz reads BIP and came to his conclusions about it according to his/her/it's system of thought it was railed against; By what mechanism within the BIP's philosophies and such would  Laz understand he had made an error in his reasoning? To say someone has made an error in reasoning requires a standard of truth does it not?
Laz misunderstood the metaphor.  The metaphor of the BIP is another set of game rules describing a certain way of considering the human thought process.  Laz didn,Äôt understand the game rules.  His misunderstanding of the BIP metaphor, however, fit in perfectly with the way he understands the world.  So is imperfect knowledge of the BIP is part of his BIP. 

You also seem to be asking if the BIP is self-correcting; that is, if you don,Äôt understand the rules of the BIP, will some internal process make you understand it?  No.  The way Laz could have understood he made an error is to listen to our critiques.

The Lamanite

All this stuff is interesting but........

Why does the Iron prison have to be black?

Payne

Feel free to install your very own pink floral print shades if you wish.

It's called "Black" for a reason, but you are not yet cleared for that information.

:lulz:


Incidentally have you read the pamphlet yet?

The Lamanite

I read some of it......


I didn't get to this part of thread, I think my question was answered on this page.


I'm just thinking that somthing negative often uses "black" as an adjective. A steel prison is negative in my opinion. But i'll try and refrain from having useless input in the future.

Payne

It's been discussed before, but it's the only suitable metaphor the creators of the theory have at the moment.

Do you have a better one? I don't but I'm 'challenged' that way.