SO, THIS IS A THING. Holist, you around?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, I think that at this point you are just putting words together in strings that you think sound impressive, with little or no deeper understanding of what the words you're parroting really mean. I don't believe you understand chemistry or electron behavior even at the relatively shallow level that I do. I think that when you say things like "higher-level structures in water" you don't even know what that means. And I think you get this information from books and websites the authors of which also don't understand chemistry (or biology or systems science or physics), and string together vague but technical-sounding terminology in order to impress semi-science-educated rubes like yourself.

[Pæs]

This is what Holist not engaging on homeopathy looks like.



I CAN'T HELP MYSELF. 

[LMNO]

Holist, your understanding of quantum physics is about 60 years out of date.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Holist, your understanding of quantum physics is about 60 years out of date.

Waiting for Holist to come back and insist that it is YOU who is out of date.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Honestly, I think the guy would be OK if it weren't for the enormous blind spot in which he seems unable to conceive the possibility that others may have access not only to the same information he does, but also, in some cases, more complete information than he does.

The exchange in the Youtube thread, about the RC quadcopters, was a perfect example. He posted a video. I watched the video, and commented that a guy in my neighborhood flies his at the park by my house. He then, perhaps assuming I must not have been clear on the concept (I really am not sure why) clarified that the ones in the video are different from the one my neighbor flies because the operators are wearing VR goggles, which is completely clear from watching the video I was commenting on.

A similar disjoint seems to have occurred when he insisted that he has taken chemistry. I believe him, because everyone takes some chemistry up to a certain point, but I also don't believe that he has taken chemistry at the level I have taken it, and certainly not to the point of actually understanding the forces that bind matter together and cause molecules to behave and interact the way they do. I barely understand it, and I've taken the year + of mid-level chemistry and aced the ACS test that qualifies me to work in a lab as a chemist.

I don't know what's going on there, but until he is able to grasp that his own level of knowledge is not, by default, higher in all areas than that of other people, it's probably going to remain difficult  to have a conversation with him.

[Suu]

Apparently there's some neighbor that keeps trying to hock my neighbor (Katniss Everdeen, the bow-wielding nurse Navy Wife) essential oils to actually take to work with her and use on her nursing home patients to protect them from the Ebolas.

I've never once heard Katniss yell, at anything. She's a down home country girl from upstate NY who loves Jesus and and good bottle of wine. She told this woman to fuck off. I nearly pissed myself laughing on the stairs when I went to get my mail yesterday.

[Reginald Ret]

The water memory thing, it is impressively stupid.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The water memory thing, it is impressively stupid.

It's so spectacularly nonsensical that it's just beyond beyond. And these people don't seem to comprehend that "higher-level" structures do not affect anything at the molecular level, they are two different orders of perspective. You can't have it both ways... it doesn't work like that. The fact that we are human does not affect the nature of the nitrogen in our bodies. They keep harping on "but there are things we don't know", while disregarding that what they propose violates what we DO know. Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence -- but it's like they don't understand enough about the known world to even understand why their claims are extraordinary, or perhaps even enough to know what extraordinary is.

I'm more willing to accept that there are emergent phenomena that are responsible for ghosts, than that there are emergent phenomena that make homeopathy work, because emergence does not affect the part of the whole. By definition.

[Doktor Howl]

The water memory thing, it is impressively stupid.

It's so spectacularly nonsensical that it's just beyond beyond. And these people don't seem to comprehend that "higher-level" structures do not affect anything at the molecular level, they are two different orders of perspective. You can't have it both ways... it doesn't work like that. The fact that we are human does not affect the nature of the nitrogen in our bodies. They keep harping on "but there are things we don't know", while disregarding that what they propose violates what we DO know. Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence -- but it's like they don't understand enough about the known world to even understand why their claims are extraordinary, or perhaps even enough to know what extraordinary is.

I'm more willing to accept that there are emergent phenomena that are responsible for ghosts, than that there are emergent phenomena that make homeopathy work, because emergence does not affect the part of the whole. By definition.

I think that says it all.  Especially this bit:

They keep harping on "but there are things we don't know", while disregarding that what they propose violates what we DO know.

Which could apply to all manner of shit.  I am currently having a bit of fun with some Mars One freaks, who are telling me that radiation outside of our magnetic field isn't a thing (so even if Mars One wasn't a scam or at best a pipe dream), so the crews would not turn into suits full of tumors.

Also, seals on hatches and spacesuits don't ever wear out, so there is no problem with a one-way trip 144 million miles from the nearest spare parts.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The water memory thing, it is impressively stupid.

It's so spectacularly nonsensical that it's just beyond beyond. And these people don't seem to comprehend that "higher-level" structures do not affect anything at the molecular level, they are two different orders of perspective. You can't have it both ways... it doesn't work like that. The fact that we are human does not affect the nature of the nitrogen in our bodies. They keep harping on "but there are things we don't know", while disregarding that what they propose violates what we DO know. Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence -- but it's like they don't understand enough about the known world to even understand why their claims are extraordinary, or perhaps even enough to know what extraordinary is.

I'm more willing to accept that there are emergent phenomena that are responsible for ghosts, than that there are emergent phenomena that make homeopathy work, because emergence does not affect the part of the whole. By definition.

I think that says it all.  Especially this bit:

They keep harping on "but there are things we don't know", while disregarding that what they propose violates what we DO know.

Which could apply to all manner of shit.  I am currently having a bit of fun with some Mars One freaks, who are telling me that radiation outside of our magnetic field isn't a thing (so even if Mars One wasn't a scam or at best a pipe dream), so the crews would not turn into suits full of tumors.

Also, seals on hatches and spacesuits don't ever wear out, so there is no problem with a one-way trip 144 million miles from the nearest spare parts.

People who WANT to believe cannot be dissuaded with mere data, logic, or other knowledge.

[Dildo Argentino]

Honestly, I think the guy would be OK if it weren't for the enormous blind spot in which he seems unable to conceive the possibility that others may have access not only to the same information he does, but also, in some cases, more complete information than he does.

The exchange in the Youtube thread, about the RC quadcopters, was a perfect example. He posted a video. I watched the video, and commented that a guy in my neighborhood flies his at the park by my house. He then, perhaps assuming I must not have been clear on the concept (I really am not sure why) clarified that the ones in the video are different from the one my neighbor flies because the operators are wearing VR goggles, which is completely clear from watching the video I was commenting on.

A similar disjoint seems to have occurred when he insisted that he has taken chemistry. I believe him, because everyone takes some chemistry up to a certain point, but I also don't believe that he has taken chemistry at the level I have taken it, and certainly not to the point of actually understanding the forces that bind matter together and cause molecules to behave and interact the way they do. I barely understand it, and I've taken the year + of mid-level chemistry and aced the ACS test that qualifies me to work in a lab as a chemist.

I don't know what's going on there, but until he is able to grasp that his own level of knowledge is not, by default, higher in all areas than that of other people, it's probably going to remain difficult  to have a conversation with him.

God damn it, that's not fair about the drone. Your first response, although clearly accidentally, was misleading. If you had posted your second one straight out ("It's just a toy you can buy in a hobby shop. Goggles and everything. And there is a guy who flies his in the park half a block away from my house because he's a filthy rich American capitalist pig who can afford to drop $1200 on an RC toy with VR goggles. He probably works for Intel or FEI or one of the god knows how many other tech companies that have campuses here."), I would not have made the mistake. You have to admit that the way you put it first made it sound totally commonplace, and I knew (correctly), that it can't be all that common, not even in Murrikah.

As for chemistry: I am totally certain and do declare that I know a great deal less about chemistry than you do.

As for higher level structures in water, I had water clusters in mind, apparently an unsolved problem in chemistry.

As for quantum physics, I know fuck all about it so that is probably more than 60 years out of date, but I don't think I have mentioned it. I mentioned special relativity, of which newtonian mechanics is a limiting case. At relativistic speeds, and macroscopic objects, newtonian mechanics fails.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

How is that unfair, when I was clearly responding to the video, in which it is extremely obvious that they were using VR goggles, and mentioned that  my neighbor flies his in the park, which is basically like an RC helicopter with fancier controls? I mean, your response seemed to indicate that either you assumed that I hadn't watched the video (in which case I wouldn't have made the link to RC helicopters at all) or that I hadn't understood what I was seeing (which gives woefully little credit to my intelligence and experience).

Either way is assuming that the person you are talking to is somehow in possession of less information than you, or is unable to correctly interpret the information present.

I brought it up here because you seem to make a habit of this sort of thing, and I wanted to point out that it makes it difficult to converse with you. It seems to partially be the result of you failing to think through your response.

As for water clusters, see this: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html

If you want something more sciency, this one is fun: http://www.pnas.org/content/98/19/10533.full

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Seriously, should I even have to specify how I know the difference? It's mildly insulting that your default assumption is that I have no clue.

And yeah, in fact, they are pretty commonplace, or at least no rarity, here in Tech Villa where the average home price is about half a million dollars. I haven't seen an ordinary RC helicopter for years, they seem to be out of vogue.

[Dildo Argentino]

Seriously, should I even have to specify how I know the difference? It's mildly insulting that your default assumption is that I have no clue.

And yeah, in fact, they are pretty commonplace, or at least no rarity, here in Tech Villa where the average home price is about half a million dollars. I haven't seen an ordinary RC helicopter for years, they seem to be out of vogue.

I made a mistake, for which I apologised. I will make efforts to improve my defensive attitude.

Drones flying about are no rarity here, either (although model aircraft are also popular). People flying them in FPV: nope.

[Dildo Argentino]

This is what Holist not engaging on homeopathy looks like.



I CAN'T HELP MYSELF. 

Okay, I just changed my mind. I read a great deal more, looked at many studies, and decided that homeopathy doesn't work. The "homeopathic encounter", I think can be a particularly effective way of turning on the placebo-effect, depending on practitioner, context and patient...it may have an element of hypnosis to it, even. But the woo is highly unlikely to be real. This feels weird, I tell you. And it will involve re-evaluating and probably changing a number of important relationships. So THANK YOU, PD.