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(attempting) to tie some ideas together.

Started by AFK, April 07, 2008, 04:17:48 PM

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AFK



Okay, I was thinking, dangerous yes. 

There have been some ideas we've chewed on since this subforum was christened back in 06.  (or whenever it was)

It helps me to visualize some of these metaphors we've talked about and in my mind I've put 3 or 4 of them together. 

This diagram is the "Sphere of Possibility" Yeah, I kind of ripped it off of GSP, but Spheres are so convenient to visualize.  In my mind the "Sphere of Possibility" is the ground we cover in our lifespan.  It's sort of a 3-D axis.  The x-axis is time, the Y and Z axes, I'm not too sure about yet.  But essentially it is what causes us to go in certain directions in our life as time passes.  We cannot escape the march towards death, but we obviously aren't destined to take the Point A to Point B straight-line Expressway.  So with this diagram I am integrating the "Paths" thing I brought up last year.

So then I pose a question.  What causes the "deviations" in the course from birth to death.  Why don't all take the straight A to B route.  In my mind I'm seeing this is where BIP and something like "Shrapnel" come into play.  Maybe one is Y and one is Z.  Not sure.  But certainly BIP is a determining factor as the bars of the cell shape who we are.  And how we are shaped will be one factor in how we behave and negotiate life. 

The "Shrapnel" idea is one I've always seen as a sort of "active-form" of BIP.  Kind of like "Shrapnel" is what happens to you while BIP is what IS you.  Indeed "Shrapnel" could be the contractor that builds your bars.  In any event it would seem these are at least two agents that work to affect the fasion in which we navigate the Sphere of Possibility.

Anyway, tl:dr I know.  So I'll wrap up.  Not sure if this is helpful or useful for anything but it's something I've been chewing on and wanted to throw up. 

One last note, as I mentioned that it is a "Sphere" of Possibility is arbitrary.  Of course since we can never really perceive Everything any True shape cannot be determined.  For all we know it could be a Cube, a Pyramid, Oval, you get the drift.  Okay, stopping. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Well if the sphere were shiny and metallic, then I'd say the stuff bouncing it around might be a set of cosmic flippers and pinball bumpers ;-)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

So, 3 axis graph.  Time (x), space(y)... perception(z)?

"Cabbages" have very small z axis, etc.

So, what causes deviations?

Entropy and choice, I would think.

A SIDS baby would have a fairly straight line, if not a short one.

As the X line increases, randomness presents situations of choice.  The Y influences what probable aspects the randomness takes, as well as the results of choices.  The Z axis is what the User sees as "possible".... That is, the range of choices.

Adjust the parameters on any of the axis, and the other two change.

Small X = small Z

Small Z = Small Y

or something.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Perhaps placing memes in the sphere, each with their own "gravity" based on the effectiveness of the meme... and the path then impacted by proximity to memes... it may have to be very close to weak memes (like Fnord), and not as close to strong memes, like *insert local cultures religious standards here*.

Maybe?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

That seems to imply a fixed positioning of memes that the User encounters.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: LMNO on April 07, 2008, 05:06:34 PM
That seems to imply a fixed positioning of memes that the User encounters.

Not necessarily... atoms, particles, molecules move about and affect things without remaining in a fixed position...

Perhaps the memes could appear as 'asteroids' shooting through our own personal GSP, they pass through the outer layer, just as passing through the stratosphere, then depending on the atmosphere inside the GSP (your own personal environment) some memes may find it easy to pass into the sphere, others may find it hard or impossible. Once a meme passes into the sphere, it may pass close enough to the individuals position that it affects their path... Maybe based on the atmosphere, some memes stick around bouncing off the walls, and others pass through the other side... ones that bounce around may affect you multiple times, ones that pass through may affect you if their intersect with the right spot in your path.

maybe...

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Payne

Well, I already sharted a bunch of ideas about shrapnel in the last post in the open source study thread.

Either it's tl;dr, or just a bunch of shit and everyone is being nice to me so as to not hurt my feelings.

Triple Zero

well yeah add to that the memes attracting and repelling eachother as well in a very high dimensional space and you got a pretty good model of some sort of cultural phase space.

as far as i know systems like this don't have an analytical solution for anything above 3 elements, so you'd have to get numerical about it, and i'm willing to bet my pance that the system is chaotic, so it'll do you no good for any sort of long-term prediction.

it's a tangled mess!
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: triple zero on April 07, 2008, 05:34:28 PM
well yeah add to that the memes attracting and repelling eachother as well in a very high dimensional space and you got a pretty good model of some sort of cultural phase space.

as far as i know systems like this don't have an analytical solution for anything above 3 elements, so you'd have to get numerical about it, and i'm willing to bet my pance that the system is chaotic, so it'll do you no good for any sort of long-term prediction.

it's a tangled mess!

Best kind of model for a Discordian, no? ;-)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

AFK

Quote from: Payne on April 07, 2008, 05:27:35 PM
Well, I already sharted a bunch of ideas about shrapnel in the last post in the open source study thread.

Either it's tl;dr, or just a bunch of shit and everyone is being nice to me so as to not hurt my feelings.

No, it works.  I think I just have an incessant need to visualize and Gliffy this stuff.  I'm a pretty visual person with these heady topics. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

Ok, so you have some sort of gravitational variable for memes.

We must also account for choice, in that just because you encounter a meme doesn't mean it will affect your path.

Requia ☣

Quote from: triple zero on April 07, 2008, 05:34:28 PM
well yeah add to that the memes attracting and repelling eachother as well in a very high dimensional space and you got a pretty good model of some sort of cultural phase space.

as far as i know systems like this don't have an analytical solution for anything above 3 elements, so you'd have to get numerical about it, and i'm willing to bet my pance that the system is chaotic, so it'll do you no good for any sort of long-term prediction.

it's a tangled mess!

There's no analytical solution for large numbers, but you can fairly easily program a visual display using a step by step process.  (I've done it in 2D for a class, even in Java computers are powerful enough to do it these days).
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: LMNO on April 07, 2008, 06:25:06 PM
Ok, so you have some sort of gravitational variable for memes.

We must also account for choice, in that just because you encounter a meme doesn't mean it will affect your path.

Indeed... so far:

A GSP Model

1.   Define GSP and XYZ axis
a.   X Axis = Time
b.   Y Axis = Space
c.   Z Axis = Perception
d.   GSP = The sphere defined by the entirety of the Individuals XYZ axis, mayu not be clearly defined until death?
e.   GSP Atmosphere = The factors which affect the capability of a given meme to enter the GSP of an individual. This is  based on the existing "memetic entity" within the GSP.

(So Atheistic memes may bounce off the GSP Atmosphere of someone Dogmatically attached to Christian Memes, but it may ZOOM straight into the GSP of someone not dogmatically attached to an opposed memetic set (agnostic), or someone already heavily invested in a similar memeset (atheist).)

2.   Define Path (Trajectory)
a.   Trajectory begins at Birth, initial vectors set by Parent Trajectory & Culture, as well as DNA.
b.   Trajectory modified by experiences (like Leary's Circuits 1-2)
c.   Trajectory modified by interaction with memes

3.   Define Elements of Memetic Structure
a.   Memetic Gravity - Cultural Density/Popularity/Importance of the Meme
b.   Memetic Attractive Force - Relation of New Meme to Memes already picked up by the Individual
c.   Memetic Repulsive Force - Relation of New Meme to Memes already picked up by the Individual
d.   Memetic Correlation Force – Relation of multiple New Memes to each other.

just for the sake of discussion ;-)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

AFK

Maybe we shouldn't call it GSP, because GSP is different than this.  I picked a "Sphere" because it is useful to illustrate how around the time of birth and death, the possibilities are contracted, and narrower, than they are in the years where there is more vitality and ability to "move".  So, for further discussions of this particular idea, perhaps a different acronym should be used so as to not confuse the two.  Just a suggestion. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on April 07, 2008, 06:43:53 PM
Maybe we shouldn't call it GSP, because GSP is different than this.  I picked a "Sphere" because it is useful to illustrate how around the time of birth and death, the possibilities are contracted, and narrower, than they are in the years where there is more vitality and ability to "move".  So, for further discussions of this particular idea, perhaps a different acronym should be used so as to not confuse the two.  Just a suggestion. 

The more I think about this... the more I wonde rif the model I described wouldn't work better with the "Memetic Bubble" as the path...

That is, Birth and Death/time as the X axis, Space (your location/how much you travel etc) as Y and perception as Z....

In that scenario, some people may have a weird oblong or disc, depending on their life. Someone who travels a lot and lives a long time... but isn't very perceptive might appear like a wheel, while a person who lives long and is very perceptive but never leaves Arkansas, may look more like a saucer... someone who lives a long time, travels a lot and is very perceptive, may have a huge sphere.

Maybe this is the formula that describes the size of our BiP... or memetic Bubble or whatever?

We could model the bubble in a huge three dimensional field of memes.. the size and shape of the bubble would affect which memes you would be exposed to and your Bubbles atmosphere would define which memes would stick and which would pass through...

what do you think?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson