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Fractal Cult

Started by Cramulus, October 29, 2010, 04:25:36 PM

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Cramulus

JESUS CHRIST, LIAM
            \
:cramstipated:


MIND = BLOWN

Cramulus

Quote from: Placid Dingo on October 30, 2010, 03:38:24 AM
One thing that strikes me in 'movements' or 'groups' is that most appear to have a central idea articulated in some form so that everyone is on the same page, or come together organically as a group interested in ideas. If Ayn Rand just rambled on about 'hey so I'm starting this thing called Objectivism where we look at these ideas of....' it wouldn't have made much impact. The books are a lightening rod for the basic concept.

Same as, for all the lashings it gets, if you want to try to explain Discordia without the PD (or these days, The BIP, AD, etc) you're going to make your head hurt. Same for the value of the 'manifesto' of art movements.

So probably it's worth identifying maybe the five or six most important concepts and flashing them out as a larger work.

still working on it. The central idea isn't fully fleshed out yet, it's onlty a kernel. I need to riff on it and loop it back and forth with you cats until it gains form.



welcome to page 2

I'm starting to think about fractal cult language and terminology  -- and I'll need some help with this

1-----I need a word which describes a pattern which occurs multiple times at the same level of magnification - such as sarah palin and christina o'donnel.

2-----And I need a word which describes the similarity between a pattern at one level and a pattern at another level - such as the relationship between one's circulatory system and the economy



ITERATION may be a good word to describe the effects a pattern has on its subpatterns. For example ... and this is the first news article on google news at the moment... http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Election-2010/Vox-News/2010/1030/Government-workers-We-need-love-too.

Martin Luther King gave the I Had A Dream speech at the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom

  Glenn Beck held a Rally to Restore Honor at the same spot on the same date many years later

       Stewart and Colbert are holding a Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear at the same spot a few months later

            and now some gov't workers are holding a rally called Gov't Doesn't Suck right before the comedycentral rally



So check it out, we've got four iterations of the MLK speech - it no longer looks like the original speech, nor does the fourth iteration address the same issues as the first iteration... and yet they are closely related.

one thing that's interesting to me is that all the rallies except the comedycentral rally are about Jobs and Freedom.. somehow that message skipped a generation.

reminds me a bit of the clear vertical spaces in an image like this:

...though to be frank that observation may be a bit sophomoric because I do not entirely grok the maths  :p

Cramulus

one place where this may be particularly useful is in historical discussion...

For example, we just hit a milestone in America--the war in afghanistan is now the longest war we've ever fought.

There's a lot of parallels between the series of wars we are fighting in the Mideast and our ill-fated war with Vietnam.

And there are a lot of reasons for this, many of which are rooted in the character of our national defense, the media, and American discourse. These things have a cybernetic relationship.

However! this is where it's important to note that every iteration is unique! history is not predictive, it is suggestive. and nature is full of black swans and surprises. So while our knowledge of Vietnam can help us understand the war in the mid east, it does not necessarily offer up the correct course of action.

Cramulus

I was typing that last post from my couch, on my netbook.

My friend Mike sat up from the couch, having landed there after a long night of drinking, and the first words out of his mouth were, "You should name that plant Mandlebrot."



signal detection, I know. But it's hard to ignore the sensation that the universe is actively playing with me

Cramulus

this might be one of the words I was looking for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrence_relation
In mathematics, a recurrence relation is an equation that recursively defines a sequence: each term of the sequence is defined as a function of the preceding terms.

that's a really succinct way of describing what I'm talking about. There is a RECURRENCE RELATION between the MLK speech and the Jon Stewart rally. Its definition is a function of the preceding terms.

Placid Dingo

I got a little lost with some of those.

The way I interpreted the idea was that 'bigger ideas' have patterns that can be traced into smaller ideas.

So We can look at the conflict between East and West, and them get smaller,

Iraq and American conflict

Conflict between two armies in that war.

Conflicts between two soldiers in that group.

Conflicts between two ideas in that soldiers mind.

BUT ALSO can be applied to completely different things; two companies, two idealogies etc.

Though we can use a similar concept set to explore each of these ideas in detail.

The list before looked more like a series of coincidences, which while interesting, weren't where I thought this idea was really going. To use the Vonnegut terminology, the MLK speech felt more like a 'Granfalloon (false link).'

I saw it as looking at patterns, like the way Improvisation skills in Drama also apply for living an interesting and engaging life.

Or the link between trying to pick up in a club, and selling someone a mobile phone.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Placid Dingo

Also, this page on 'From Hell' looks good (spoilers apleanty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Hell

Moore says he regarded the Ripper murders as essentially a summing up of the late 19th century, and also that they forshadowed much of the 20th.

Was apparently influenced by Douglas Adams 'Holistic Detective Agency' series, in that the concept was that you must solve the mystery holistically; to solve the mystery you must solve the society in which it happened.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Triple Zero

Quote from: Liam on October 31, 2010, 10:29:32 AMI know its a bit daft, but my head keeps sticking on 'as above so below' with the things that are like things bit, even though it has nothing to do with it.

Occurred to me too. How does it have nothing to do with it, though? Seems like exactly what we ;re talking about no?

I was gonna shoop "As above so below" in a cute font, repeated fractally to it looks like a Cantor set. Maybe later.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Cramulus

"AS ABOVE, SO BELOW" is probably a good line to go on the "core idea" list

Quote from: Placid Dingo on October 30, 2010, 03:28:52 PM
The list before looked more like a series of coincidences, which while interesting, weren't where I thought this idea was really going. To use the Vonnegut terminology, the MLK speech felt more like a 'Granfalloon (false link).'

I saw it as looking at patterns, like the way Improvisation skills in Drama also apply for living an interesting and engaging life.

Or the link between trying to pick up in a club, and selling someone a mobile phone.


good point on the granfaloons... And that's part of why this feedback is important -- the challenge is to come up with a useful and poignant model for understanding the universe without suffering from confirmation bias and other signal detection problems. The question here is -- what relationship does the original MLK speech have to the Rally to Restore Fear and/or Sanity? Can we get a better understanding of the latter rallies by understanding the former rallies? What kind of recurrence relation do they have?

my gut feeling is that we're looking at iterations of the same shape - charismatic leader summarizes his constituents emotions in a provocative and engaging way, infusing them with a renewed sense of purpose and motivation, catapulting them into higher levels of participation and activism. But on the other hand, am I just taking an event and generalizing it until it sounds like some kind of truth?


On the topic of METHODS

I said earlier that I want to develop techniques which help you mentally connect the "below" to the "above". So now I want to explore the concept of Stichomancy...

QuoteStichomancy (literally, divination from lines) is the practice of seeking answers to the great metaphysical questions, as well as trying to gain insight into the meaning of existence and reality, by reading random passages from a book such as the Bible or the I Ching.

Rastafarians are known for this. Smoke a J, open the bible to a random page, there's your advice. If it doesn't seem relevant yet, smoke another J.  Eventually it will.  You've just gotta be in the right headspace to grok the correspondences.

I've been doing this a lot recently too. I've been getting divinations from the radio - I ask Eris a question like "What's this party going to be like tonight?" turn on the radio, give the dial a spin, and quite often it lands on somebody saying something which perfectly answers the question.

The solution to your problems is already in your head, you just have to draw it out by framing it with a new context.

If we live in a fractal, we can understand the big patterns by examining the small patterns -- and vice versa. Perhaps there is a good method for this.   More thoughts on this later.


Placid Dingo

Probably one of the points that needs clarification is are you trying to say that...

It's useful to think that were exist in these kind of fractals (in the Discordian-Bokonist sense that we can construct and develop our own sense of reality by consciously developing our own beliefs (Probably Cain's Discordianism and Perfect Nihilism is the type of thing i'm getting at.))

OR

We indeed DO live in these kinds of fractals. That there is objective value in examining the reactions of individuals in situations and applying these patterns to countries, in the same way that a scientist can experiment on a mouse to learn about humans.

I thoguht for a while about why the MLK-Sanity link didn't make sense to me, but 'As above, so below' did it for me. It feels like MLK to Sanity is going sideways; which is useful but not what I had my head around. (actually I have already revised this at the bottom)

Firstly, we're not trying to understand one thing, but trying to piece the larger elements into the smaller to get a clearer picture of the whole.

So my process for Rally For Sanity would be

Look at an individual participant. Who are they? Why are they here?

Look at the whole event. What is it? Why does it happen?

We zoom out and apply our gaze to America; where do these values and ideologies place themselves in the context of America itself. What is the conflict between fear and rationality on this scale.

Then, I'd probably ask these questions of the west

Then the World

Then maybe zoom in again. Where do these ideas and values come in to my life as an individual?

And how are some of the basic CONCEPTS by which I define myself affected by these ideas.




So then the recurrence relation, that we can see patterns repeat. This is I guess where we get to look at repetitions. Possibly one point here is that not every 'sideways move' represents a repeating pattern, but maybe elements.

Required reading here is Survivor by Chuck Palahnuik btw.

So maybe an archtype approach is good?

We have Luther King as the hero in a few senses...
We have 'the social movement'
We have 'a shared vision'
We have ...ohh shit, there has to be a cool term for this... anyway, whatever you call 'articulating a vision so that people have something explicit to visualise as a goal' MLKs Black and White children, in the same way HG Wells had his Submarine.
We had 'racial politics'.
We had 'over-heored' (in that MLK like any of the 'good guys' is over idealised.
We had 'Prelude to tragic death'

And actually when I put it like that you can see a lot of patterns. Hopefully not the last.

If you wanted to cause your own brain to explode one think that could be done is to collect and define elements of patterns and use that to define phenonoma.

Anyway, that's as much as I can do before I confuse myself.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Cramulus

#25
Quote from: Placid Dingo on October 31, 2010, 01:43:51 PM
Probably one of the points that needs clarification is are you trying to say that...

It's useful to think that were exist in these kind of fractals (in the Discordian-Bokonist sense that we can construct and develop our own sense of reality by consciously developing our own beliefs (Probably Cain's Discordianism and Perfect Nihilism is the type of thing i'm getting at.))

OR

We indeed DO live in these kinds of fractals. That there is objective value in examining the reactions of individuals in situations and applying these patterns to countries, in the same way that a scientist can experiment on a mouse to learn about humans.

If understand the question properly

within this model
#2 is true therefore #1 is true.



QuoteFirstly, we're not trying to understand one thing, but trying to piece the larger elements into the smaller to get a clearer picture of the whole.

very well said

QuoteSo my process for Rally For Sanity would be

Look at an individual participant. Who are they? Why are they here?

Look at the whole event. What is it? Why does it happen?

We zoom out and apply our gaze to America; where do these values and ideologies place themselves in the context of America itself. What is the conflict between fear and rationality on this scale.

Then, I'd probably ask these questions of the west

Then the World

Then maybe zoom in again. Where do these ideas and values come in to my life as an individual?

And how are some of the basic CONCEPTS by which I define myself affected by these ideas.

yes yes!

in this example, I think current events in washington can teach us about.... (going from big to small)
a) the world
b) global politics
c) local politics
d) individuals
e) the self


the lesson from this example is          - perhaps -
         that the cascade of causality works like a pendulum. Conflict polarizes things into multiple camps.  Conflict between these camps is inevitable, and over time they will fracture into subcamps. Over time, subcamps become specialized towards particular functions and lose their mass appeal.

Does that work?


QuoteIf you wanted to cause your own brain to explode one think that could be done is to collect and define elements of patterns and use that to define phenonoma.

like TVTropes?  :lol:


the idea in kabbalistic (sp?) thought is to overload your brain with the coincidences and correspondences, go totally batshit with the law of fives, and the truth will come through the chaos

which is the symmetrical opposite of zen meditation, where you unload your brain and keep it very still until the truth comes through the chaos.

SEEK YE THE EYE OF THE HURRICANE

Cramulus



on the topic of how this fractal universe idea can be useful to us-------------------------

If you already know how to play the saxaphone, it's a lot easier to learn to play the trumpet. If you already speak Spanish, it's easier to learn French. This is called transferrence, the ability to use your knoweldge of one skill when learning another.

There is a high degree of transferrence if you're learning similar skills. If you already know one programming language, it's way easier to learn others. But your ability to bake a pie does not play a role in that learning.

Psychologists have wondered what if there is a way to amplify the amount of transferrence that takes place. Priming techniques have been somewhat successful - that is, telling people explicitly that they should draw on existing knowledge draws their attention to the ways that the thing they are learning is similar to the thing they already know.


My thinking is that if ALL IS ONE and AS ABOVE, SO BELOW, we may be able to transfer knowledge from very unlikely places.

A few pages back I was talking about how visualizing Odysseus helps me deal with being on a long voyage home. Placid Dingo reiterated:

QuoteI saw it as looking at patterns, like the way Improvisation skills in Drama also apply for living an interesting and engaging life.

Or the link between trying to pick up in a club, and selling someone a mobile phone.

Going back to our fractal universe metaphor, transference is possible because we are looking at different parts of basically the same shape. Even though throwing a party and painting a picture are two entirely different activities, one may still teach you a little bit about the other. They both require a certain aesthetic sensitivity.

The patience and discipline we learned in school is a source we can tap into when cleaning the house or cooking dinner. A good cook has developed an attention to detail that will be useful anywhere else in his life, if only he can tap into it.



So to that end I propose that the Fern Leaf symbol represents the idea of relevant structural similarity. ("relevant" being the key word) Each leaf of the fern resembles every other leaf on the fern, even though they are all unique. Here is the method...

When you are facing a challenge, learning a skill, or confused about something, visualize the fern. Focus all your attention on that image. The first thing that pops into your head is something you can learn from, something which holds the key to the issue at hand.

Brotep

#27
If this is to be taken as reality rather than a way of thinking, it strikes me as sweet, delicious bullshit. The kind you know you should stop eating but you can't.

I have desperately wanted and tried to believe in a Jungian or Campbellian universal motif, but it's seemed wrong from any approach outside wishful thinking. Not only are archetypes ill-defined, they are supposed to be ineffable. However, there is one handling of the monomyth I find immensely satisfying, and that is William Blake's, at least as it is explained by Northrop Frye in Fearful Symmetry.

There is something profoundly appealing about this extreme poly-tiered "as above, so below and a little below that" systematicity, but I wonder what metaphysical assumptions it demands. It allows the feeling that the universe has an order about it that science for all its mechanistic conceptions cannot bestow or recognize, but is that worthwhile in and of itself?

Dingo is right on the money with this...
Quote from: Placid Dingo on October 31, 2010, 01:43:51 PMProbably one of the points that needs clarification is are you trying to say that...

It's useful to think that were exist in these kind of fractals (in the Discordian-Bokonist sense that we can construct and develop our own sense of reality by consciously developing our own beliefs (Probably Cain's Discordianism and Perfect Nihilism is the type of thing i'm getting at.))

OR

We indeed DO live in these kinds of fractals. That there is objective value in examining the reactions of individuals in situations and applying these patterns to countries, in the same way that a scientist can experiment on a mouse to learn about humans.

I will add only that there is value in the ability to draw analogies between processes existing on different levels or in different senses, regardless of the reality or unreality of similarity. I am not prepared to throw down with the metaphysical fractal realist, but having a larger analogical vocabulary is definitely a good thing.



Quote from: CramsI'm starting to think about fractal cult language and terminology  -- and I'll need some help with this

1-----I need a word which describes a pattern which occurs multiple times at the same level of magnification - such as sarah palin and christina o'donnel.

2-----And I need a word which describes the similarity between a pattern at one level and a pattern at another level - such as the relationship between one's circulatory system and the economy

For same-level and interlevel pattern similarity, I would use the terms 'tesselation' and 'homology', respectively. Homology is the term we used in History of Chinese Religion class to describe the notion of the link between the microcosm and the macrocosm--e.g., between the health of the emperor and the wellbeing of the state. Tesselation refers to a shape that can fill a space with copies of itself all placed side-by-side. While that in and of itself does not require or directly suggest reproduction, I like the idea that certain shapes create a negative space patterned after themselves.


The dance along the artery,
the circulation of the lymph,
are figured in the drift of stars.

--T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets

Cramulus

Let's start from the top---and try to crystalize/synthesize these ideas into some basic bullet points.

ALL of this is subject to critique and revision.  :mrgreen:


1. Symbol: the mandelbrot set. "The universe is a fractal." The universe is infinitely complex, but graspable because it contains recurring patterns.

2. Symbol: the tree of life, the serpinski triangle, the golden spiral. "As above, so below." Structural similarities appear regardless of scale. The big picture can be observed in small things and vice versa.

3. Symbol: the fern, the leaf. Patterns occur multiple times at a the same scale. But each iteration is unique.

4. Symbol: the coastline, the koch curve. The closer your observe something, the more complex it becomes. There are no simple answers.

5. Symbol: the dragon cure. recursion. Patterns repeat over time because they are always iterations of existing patterns.

Cramulus

Quote from: Aleister Growly on October 31, 2010, 02:52:41 PM
If this is to be taken as reality rather than a way of thinking, it strikes me as sweet, delicious bullshit. The kind you know you should stop eating but you can't.

I think we are only capable of describing models. I don't think anybody is presenting this as a really for real true description of the universe - more of a thought experiment so far.


QuoteI have desperately wanted and tried to believe in a Jungian or Campbellian universal motif, but it's seemed wrong from any approach outside wishful thinking. Not only are archetypes ill-defined, they are supposed to be ineffable.

models cannot be true or false, they can only have degrees of usefulness.

In this case I do think they are useful in that we can learn something about humanity, and ourselves, by examining the patterns which recur in nearly every culture.

QuoteFor same-level and interlevel pattern similarity, I would use the terms 'tesselation' and 'homology', respectively. Homology is the term we used in History of Chinese Religion class to describe the notion of the link between the microcosm and the macrocosm--e.g., between the health of the emperor and the wellbeing of the state. Tesselation refers to a shape that can fill a space with copies of itself all placed side-by-side. While that in and of itself does not require or directly suggest reproduction, I like the idea that certain shapes create a negative space patterned after themselves.

good notes... I wrote the bullet points in the above post before I saw this.. I think you're onto something with the homology.  This calls for more research on my part.

Tesselation is definitely a nod in the right direction but I think it also implies uniformity, which does not sit well with complexity.