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It's almost a month old...  

What exactly?

The Machine is connections.
Anything resulting from the idea of connections is the Machine. Examples: law, government, infrastructure, unions, marriage, love, and language.

At risk of being very, very cliche, it is the Aneristic principle. I agree with that section of the Principia wholeheartedly. I really have nothing to add on that matter.

When it comes to somehow fighting certain elements of it, I, in my present condition of being cynical and tired, could not give a shit. The world is in a continual state of decay and movement towards a crystalline and austere hellscape. I go to school to be forced into a police state for 7 hours of my day, with the rest of my day devoted to preparing for more abuse the next day by resting and finishing work, with a weekend of frantic recreation in preparation for the coming week. The Machine has bought the counterculture and stolen it's symbols and mutilated their ideals into 3 minute sound bites called rock music and advertising ploys. The closest a kid of my generation is ever going to get to truly rebelling is finding ways to avoid the system, while looking away and falling asleep when people talk about fighting it.

The Machine will most likely assimilate me at some point. I hope to only end up being used as a negative example for kids in the process of indoctrination, so they can all point and say, "You can't be that guy, and everything he says is wrong." If I'm lucky I'll be assassinated.

TLU, a word of caution:  my brother is bi-polar, and for a while, he enjoyed his pendulum swings, as well.

Then he went into a black, black depression, and didn't leave his apartment for a year..

Then he went totally manic, and had a complete psychotic break, and had to be hospitalized.



Then he became a Scientologist.



So, all I can say is: watch out.

All I really hope to avoid is the hospitalized and Scientologist part.
Choosing to live with bipolar is a dangerous choice, and I've still got a little while to figure out what I'm going to do, but I think I'll end up making that choice.

Keep in mind I am talking theory. There is no accounting for individual naivete or stupidity.

Again, you are assuming some supernatural element to the equation.  You are correct in that the consequences of your actions cannot be known for certain, but that applies to everyone, not just yourself.  No one can know the full effect of ones consequences.  The examples of influence you give require the person attempting to influence someone to have or claim to have supernatural or spiritual knowledge of such things.  I take that sort of thing out of the equation. Anyone who claims such knowledge is not to be trusted.  Besides, the Buddha said "Be a lamp unto yourself". In other words, think for yourself!

An individual might not know the true extent of the consequences of their actions, but we can still try to take actions that we think will bring a positive effect on those around us, or if you are Discordian, a creatively chaotic effect on those around us, in the hopes that the ultimate result will be a positive one on us.

It seems utterly daft to me that anyone could deny that their actions have effects on those around them, for good or ill.  It also seems equaly daft, although perhaps slightly more understandable, that people would make decisions that have negative effects.

1. I didn't actually imply a supernatural element. I meant one that was made up, though I can see where that idea came from.

2. Once removing naivete, what you say is entirely true, though I disagree with you that people wouldn't want to make decisions that have negative effects. People are masochistic, as far as I've seen. Although perhaps it's a reflection of the inherent daft-ness of mankind to make intentionally negative decisions.

Physics is a science, and therefore a self-correcting mechanism.  The same cannot be said for most non-scientific systems.

Of course not. I just don't like physics because it's much less fun than unscientific things.

You obviously haven't really understood physics, then.  That shit is weirder (and more fun) than most.

And Goedel's proof obviously stems for the fact that numbers (and, by extension, math) is an abstract concept and is therefore open to manipulation and paradox.

I know all of that. I was just joking around. And I certainly know how weird and trippy physics gets, but the actual leg work behind it, the calculations and logic puzzles, drives me nuts. In the immortal words of Butt Head, "I'm like, angry at numbers. There are like, too many of them and stuff."

yea and he did it from the most simple number theory thing, meaning you don't even need complicated obscure etheric math stuff like uncountable infinite sets or real numbers (which cause most of the other math paradoxes thanks to the axiom of choice), but just counting natural numbers

the book "Goedel Escher Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter explains Goedels incompleteness theorem in a way easily understood by anyone with a good brain for math and logic (but no prerequisite knowledge necessary) and also talks about a whole bunch of other interesting subjects .. the few chapters about the incompleteness theorem pretty much blew my mind, i really gotta read that book again sometime

Okay, now about the Axiom of Choice. I read up the Wiki and it says

The axiom of choice states:

Let X be a set of non-empty sets. Then we can choose a single member from each set in X.
A choice function is a function on a collection of sets X such that for every set s in X, f(s) is an element of s. With this concept, the axiom can be stated:

For any set of non-empty sets, X, there exists a choice function f defined on X.
Or alternatively:

An arbitrary Cartesian product of non-empty sets is non-empty.
Or most compactly:

Every set of nonempty sets has a choice function.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that just say "If there's something that has stuff in it, there's at least one particular article of stuff in it?" And more basically, isn't that just a harder to grasp way of saying "x=x"?
Ugh, number theory makes me want to jump off a bridge.

TLU gains intellectual respeck from Felix.

I believe it's two words, and has the little horizontal colon over the O, like this: "Bitte sch??n".

I've experienced the beauty/truth trip myself.  Remarkable, no?  I haven't however seen "Waking Life".  Would you say it's worth the trouble?

I like your perspective on bipolar, how it 'cycles'.  It's a good model I suppose, as I'd imagine such psycho-chemical turnovers would (now that I think of it) induce far more insight than a stable neurochem' state.

Also, it's interesting to see how others retrospect.

that is all.  The Immutable Cabal thanks you.

Respects for teh newbie!

And Waking Life is definitely worth it, as it goes over a ridiculously wide range of subjects, so it's likely at least one Idea will be new to you. The presentation isn't very movie-like, it's more like a short philosophy book making use of audio, visuals, and a very sparse story/character development to emphasize certain aspects, throw ideas into context, and give a feeling of a dream/trip.

*reminisces on the beauty/truth trip*
Everyone kept saying things about why I was staring up into the canopy of the trees, as everything became this crystalline, shining trip. I half near passed out.

You're welcome Immutable Cabal

I say go a little farther and point out hope is just an attachment to things even more imagined than the "real" world. Any Buddhist will tell you attachment just screws you over, and so will I.

in short (i almost have to say here "warning plot spoiler" ), it's a bit about the ephimedes paradox, a version of which basically says "this sentence is false". your basic paradox.
what goedel does is, he builds up a formal math system according to very simple axioms and logical rules. he just lays down the very basics for number theory. has been done a long time before (goedel did his proof in 1931), been used first to prove simple things like "2+3=5" (would have been a nice thing for Winston to know in room 101 heh) or "there is no highest prime number", using a method called "proof by construction", meaning that the construction of a sentence/statement is also its proof. Goedel figured out a trick to have a formal statement say something about itself and constructed a statement that stated "this statement is not true", thereby pretty much kicking mathematics in the shins, blowing it up from its foundations, etc.
in the end, Goedels conclusion was something like, either a formal system is not 'strong' enough to be complete (meaning it's pretty useless), or if it is strong enough it will be possible to build a 'Goedel Sentence', meaning you can blow it up from the foundation and it's incomplete as well. that's why it's called "goedels incompleteness theorem". (i probably cut a few mathematic fundamentalistic corners here and there, don't shoot me)

oh there wikipedia sez this:
In 1931, G??del published his famous incompleteness theorems in "?úber formal unentscheidbare S?§tze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme." In that article, he proved that for any computable axiomatic system that is powerful enough to describe arithmetic on the natural numbers, then:
- The system cannot be both consistent and complete. (This is generally known as the incompleteness theorem.)
- The consistency of the axioms cannot be proved within the system.

and in the end Goedel died of starvation caused by paranoia.

also, he always wore black all the time.

ahaha i like this guy .. wikipedia sez: G??del had a most distinguished coach for his citizenship exam: Albert Einstein, who had earlier earned his own citizenship, but knowing of G??del's unpredictable behavior, was concerned that his friend might somehow behave erratically during the exam. Einstein accompanied G??del to the hearing. To everyone's consternation, G??del suddenly informed the presiding judge that he had discovered a way in which a dictatorship could be legally installed in the United States. ^_^

I dig it. Godel proved that math can never be entirely right. The dude deserves a special place in my pantheon of crazy geniuses.

I just read on wikipedia that the fbi  investigated discordians. 1.)is this real
2.) how and why? 3.) does this board float? 4.) if so are we still? 5.)wa-thu-fuk?

1. It could be. They needed someone to say was degrading the youth who wouldn't fight back.

2. I have no idea how, but as far as why is concerned, they probably got the impression each cabal had 40 pounds of the ergot fungus with them at all times based on whatever discordian writings they could find. And they're just jackasses looking for new scapegoats.

3. It's light as a feather and stiff as a board! Hahaha! I kill me.

ah ok didn't spot the mathematics mentioning .. though still imo fractal dimension isn't really something that hit anybody in the face, more like a new more general definition of dimension .. what really kicked math in the face previous century was goedels incompleteness theorem, imo.

truly, reading that one (in Goedel Escher Bach) was one of the biggest mindfucks i ever read - i can recommend it to anyone not afraid of a littlebit of abstract math, logic and proof stuff. at least, it blew my mind and changed my life in a number of ways

Hmm...Goedel eh? I seem to remember that section in Michio Kaku's Hyperspace(yeah I know, it's not exactly a textbook, but it's all a kid like me is going to obtain and mildly understand). Something to do with space curvature? Or am I remembering something completely different?

1) "bitte schon", no umlaut

2) i think they call it the "long dark teatime of the soul" or something. or the abyss. the odd thing is that you actually seem to be enjoying it, while usually one reaps the actual benefits afterwards, after recovery (which you wouldn't call "recovery" of course) .. there's a lot of writings about how someone first needs to "cross the abyss" before reaching a new (higher) state in life, but i think others here can tell much more about this. it's a bit .. new agey? hippie? fluff-headed, but that never stopped me

1. Thanks. I had a feeling that was how it's spelled, but I have a terrible memory.

2. The whole "cross the abyss" thing does make a fair bit of sense. While I am aware of what's going on while the depression is happening, I do really reap the full benefits after the initial experience, where I can see more than I did before, and can place the insights gained into context.

Perhaps the reason I have less of a problem with Bipolar is because I have a unique kind of it, in which I have hyper fast cycling (up to five changes a day, though usually changing every day and a half), and equal amounts depression and mania. Most people (adults at the least) have very slow cycling, lasting from a week to several months, and they have long periods of depression punctuated by short bursts of mania. I also think that an overall spiritual and inquisitive nature helps out my mania too, but I suppose I can't judge considering I'm no authority on the personalities of others.

Refreshing to be disagreed with, so thanks for that.

So what about being faced with extreme perspectives teach you about life?

1. Bitteshoen (or is it Bitteshon? Summer has been affecting my German knowledge)
2. I suppose using "teach" in a traditional, small lessons of growing knowledge sense would be a misnomer. What it does is it places me in a constant state of Satori or near to it at the least. In the space of 5 months I managed to outpace the movie Waking Life in terms of philosophical thought, which I suppose is a bit of an accomplishment considering how many intelligent people viewed that movie as a super mind expanding head trip.
Like during the first notable onset of my condition (I shy away from saying "illness" as I don't feel defective in any way) at summer camp last year, I experienced this massive blast of infinite beauty as the old idea of "beauty is truth" (which I had never heard before) came upon me in all its fullness. But in the same week I was confronted with a sudden awakening to my own apathy towards improving myself and my denial of my shamefully immature past in a way that went far beyond the dispassioned words I told myself beforehand.
By having a brain chemistry in a state of extremes, I've had my own tendency towards revelation allowed to grow and be amplified many times over for some reason I can't quite explain.

And you're very right about chemicals kicking the bipolar back. I used (of all odd things) my old mood stabilizer that got me as high as a kite last night and I think I had a mega intense dream about my dad cheating on my mom. Unless those messages were actually on my phone (which was my dad's two years ago, apparently), in which case I have something worse than intense dreams on my hands.  

how did fractal dimensions fly in the face of anything?
also, what do they have to do with physics?

(I did add mathematics to the description of revolutionary things, just saying, so it doesn't necessarily have to do with physics.)

Hmm, I suppose I spoke too quickly. I shouldn't have included that, though it was a revolutionary concept and defied the Euclidean "One dimensional, two dimensional, three dimensional" categorizing system. Thanks for pointing out that example of dumbassery though.