Dear Nigel, Garbo, Signora, and Pixie...Hear me out for just a second

[Salty]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

I think a lot of people are under quite a bit more than an ounce of frustrations already.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

I think a lot of people are under quite a bit more than an ounce of frustrations already.

Yep.  Like I said, "crush depth".

What I want to know is, if WE'RE spazzing out, why aren't the humans?  Are they fucking stupid or crazy or something?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

I think a lot of people are under quite a bit more than an ounce of frustrations already.

Yep.  Like I said, "crush depth".

What I want to know is, if WE'RE spazzing out, why aren't the humans?  Are they fucking stupid or crazy or something?

I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with being too Cool™ to give a shit combined with Stockholm Syndrome.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

I think a lot of people are under quite a bit more than an ounce of frustrations already.

Yep.  Like I said, "crush depth".

What I want to know is, if WE'RE spazzing out, why aren't the humans?  Are they fucking stupid or crazy or something?

I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with being too Cool™ to give a shit combined with Stockholm Syndrome.

That, and they're all smashing their brain cells flat with Xanex.

[Juana]

I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.

You have to remember that while I am not stupid, I am a little dense.  I keep hearing variations on the above, but I don't know what it means.  Work together?  Great.  But in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  I want to work together, but I have no idea what to DO to work together.  There's no task list.

So we come back around to the male "find a fix" predicament.  I know I'm doin' it wrong, but I don't know why.

"Find a fix" isn't the problem (ime, that's how guys show they care; they took the time to try to think up what might work). It's more like trying to find a fix without consulting the people you want to work with (which I have observed enfranchised groups like men, white people, and heterosexuals doing - oh, you silly women/PoC/queers, lemme help you, you poor sad little things).

That's entirely dependent on the context (supporting someone you know pretty well will be different than offering support to someone you don't, plus the context of whatever event it is causing you to want to offer your support), BUT I would venture to say things like "I can understand that"/"that's understandable" (both imply empathy rather than jacking the experience, although if it IS something you have experience with, I think you'd be okay to share that if you feel comfortable doing so) and asking something like "is there anything I can do?" (indicates that you understand that s/he may not actually want help or that you know they might want something specific, aka you want to help but are not forcing them to accept it, which is, in itself, incredibly helpful).

I'm not sure I can force anyone to accept anything.  I'm reasonably certain - though I may very well be wrong - that I haven't tried.  At least recently.

Also, the problem is that I CAN'T "understand that".  Believe me when I say that I am not being pissy here.  I am convinced merely by the level of frustration on both sides that men DON'T understand what women deal with.

I have to take off for a little bit, but I'll be back and finish my answer.

Okay.  Because I'm still sorta lost, here.

"Trying to force" would be more accurate of me to say (again, see the "you poor benighted creatures, let me do it for you" thing) which I have not observed you doing here.

Could you explain that a little more?

[Juana]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

I think a lot of people are under quite a bit more than an ounce of frustrations already.

Yep.  Like I said, "crush depth".

What I want to know is, if WE'RE spazzing out, why aren't the humans?  Are they fucking stupid or crazy or something?

I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with being too Cool™ to give a shit combined with Stockholm Syndrome.

That, and they're all smashing their brain cells flat with Xanex.

Yes. Xanex is the cure for what ails ye.

[Juana]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

Suggestions?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.

You have to remember that while I am not stupid, I am a little dense.  I keep hearing variations on the above, but I don't know what it means.  Work together?  Great.  But in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  I want to work together, but I have no idea what to DO to work together.  There's no task list.

So we come back around to the male "find a fix" predicament.  I know I'm doin' it wrong, but I don't know why.

"Find a fix" isn't the problem (ime, that's how guys show they care; they took the time to try to think up what might work). It's more like trying to find a fix without consulting the people you want to work with (which I have observed enfranchised groups like men, white people, and heterosexuals doing - oh, you silly women/PoC/queers, lemme help you, you poor sad little things).

Is this that "sarcasm" thing I've heard about? 

Yeah, I can see how that would drive someone right out of their tree. 

That's entirely dependent on the context (supporting someone you know pretty well will be different than offering support to someone you don't, plus the context of whatever event it is causing you to want to offer your support), BUT I would venture to say things like "I can understand that"/"that's understandable" (both imply empathy rather than jacking the experience, although if it IS something you have experience with, I think you'd be okay to share that if you feel comfortable doing so) and asking something like "is there anything I can do?" (indicates that you understand that s/he may not actually want help or that you know they might want something specific, aka you want to help but are not forcing them to accept it, which is, in itself, incredibly helpful).

I'm not sure I can force anyone to accept anything.  I'm reasonably certain - though I may very well be wrong - that I haven't tried.  At least recently.

Also, the problem is that I CAN'T "understand that".  Believe me when I say that I am not being pissy here.  I am convinced merely by the level of frustration on both sides that men DON'T understand what women deal with.

I have to take off for a little bit, but I'll be back and finish my answer.

Okay.  Because I'm still sorta lost, here.

"Trying to force" would be more accurate of me to say (again, see the "you poor benighted creatures, let me do it for you" thing) which I have not observed you doing here.

Could you explain that a little more?

Which, being lost or trying to force people to do things?

The lost bit:  I try to do what I think is right.  Only what I think is right seems to come off as insulting and/or condescending, or COULD come off as insulting or condescending.  All I know is that everyone should be able to live their lives the way they want to, and I don't put up with people dictating other peoples' lives to them in my presence¹.  Not because I feel the need to rush to the rescue, but because it offends me.

Forcing people to do things:  I try not to do this.  I may force people to NOT do things (see above), but they can always go run their fucking nozzles somewhere else.  Just not around me.  I am really a reasonable guy, when I am not being offended by screwheads and fundamentalist swine.  I'd be more reasonable if said screwheads would all just move to another country.  Utah, maybe.





¹  For ANY reason.  No, it is NOT okay to tell my children to say grace, if they don't feel the need to do so (I don't speak to many of my relatives, because of shit like this).  No, it is NOT okay to talk about "faggots" in MY Goddamn maintenance bay.  No, it is NOT okay to walk into my office and talk about that "domineering bitch" in the front office (I don't care for her myself, most days, but that is NOT FUCKING ACCEPTABLE IN A WORK ENVIRONMENT.  It's fucking unprofessional, in addition to being fucking retarded.  An asshole is an asshole.  Her plumbing has nothing to fucking do with it.)

I don't say this because I want to look like some "modern man", I say it because people PISS ME OFF WITH IRRELEVANCIES.  I don't want to talk to them about IMPORTANT SHIT, let alone this garbage.  I don't want to hear their shit.  Am I wrong in this?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, my bones are all melty, so the sleeping pills are winning.

I'll be back tomorrow evening.  DO NOT TURN THIS HERE THREAD INTO ANOTHER CRATER!  I swear to fucking God, if I have to turn this car around, You People are going to REGRET IT.  Tempers are to be KEPT IN CHECK.  Rational discussion here or kill me.

At least until I get some answers from the other three addressees.  THEN you can burn the bastard down.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've been listening so loud my throat is getting raw.  No, wait, that means I haven't been listening, I've been shouting.  So I went back through and listened some.  I'd like to dispense with showing my raw red ass to everyone, and I'd like to suggest to many people here that they pull up their pants, because my ass is WAY redder than yours.  Anyway...

Let me restate the case made, to see if I understand it.

1.  Men can sympathize with, but not actually understand, what being a woman is all about, expecially in a patriarchal society.

2.  Men tend to answer concerns with suggestions on how to fix the situation.

3.  You would appreciate our support, not endless suggestions on how to fix what is - at present - a basically unfixable predicament.

Before I go any further, do I have the basics straight?

1. Yes, basically. I at one point tried to explain the difference between sympathetic understanding (intellectually knowing what a situation is like) and empathetic understanding (having experienced what a situation is like), and I think that's an important distinction, because when we say "REALLY understand" we are talking about the empathetic understanding. No one who has not experienced another person's situation can understand it empathetically, unless you're Wyldkat and have mahadgiqual powerz.

2. Yes, and sometimes suggestions are desirable, but it's important when you're dealing with anyone you view as an equal to avoid coming across as paternal or condescending. Case in point, advising women to change their personal individual behavior in a conversation about patriarchy is about as useful as advising kids to avoid backtalking their teachers in a conversation about changing the school-to-prison pipeline. Even less so, actually, since we're adults and if you view us as equals it's probably safe to assume we already know more than you do about coping/avoiding mechanisms, since we have to employ them on a regular basis as part of our set of basic survival skills.

3. This really depends. If you have ideas for ways to change society to make it more equitable, please talk about it! If, however, your suggestions are about how we ought to think/act differently in order to be more pleasing to men or avoid male wrath, that's going to be pretty unwanted. If there is an element of the feminist/egalitarian movement you would like to see changed, probably the best way to accomplish that is to avoid anything that smacks of "You're doing it wrong" and instead to ask questions like "Why are you doing it that way?" and "Are you concerned about backlash?" so that you can really understand the methods and reasons before suggesting alternatives. Because, bottom line, social movements are about the people at the bottom, and those who are not at the bottom but wish to help really, really need to let the people at the bottom exercise their voice and control.

Over all, I know that you and I have had some frustrated moments with each other in this conversation, but as always, one thing that I REALLY appreciate about you is that although you're stubborn, strong-willed, and passionate, you always maintain a hunger to learn and a willingness to admit to being wrong, and that's something I find incredibly admirable. Quite honestly, I look up to you for it and it inspires me to work to be a better person.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

1. Correct.
2. IME, yes. Some of which is very good. Some of which is not.
3. Yes and no. Support - absolutely. Endless suggestions - in the context of "how do we fix this? how can we reach our audience?" are welcome. But I think it is fixable (it's a lot better now than it was fifty years ago, after all, and I think we can keep making it better!). It's just going to take a lot of work.

Okay, so enlighten me here, for I am a spag:  How would I show support in a manner that isn't condescending, and has some sort of merit?  I've asked this once, and received an answer I was incapable of understanding.  I am not saying that Nigel's answer wasn't a good one, just that I didn't understand it.

(Nigel's answer:  http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,33052.90/msg,1201068.html )

I don't understand it, because I wasn't shown a whole lot of support when I came home.  I was offered sympathy by friends and family that I wasn't really interested in for what I suspect is the exact same reason that nobody here wants cheerleading¹, and I was offered "counseling" (read:  have some pills) by the government.

So what am I to do?

Hmmm, I think that my answer was probably too simplistic, really. But honestly, it seems to me from this part:

¹  That is to say, people with no common frame of reference trying to impose solutions, consolation, or advice on a situation that they can't understand.  I know this is sort of hovering around Nigel's answer, but I can't quite seem to zero in on it.

That you DO get it, but are not sure yet how to incorporate that into action.

I think that the thing I like to think about when I am trying to offer support to people whose experiences I can never wholly understand is what it is that will make it easier for them. Like if I'm assisting a renowned speaker on a subject they are expert in, and I am knowledgeable from listening to them but don't have primary research experience; it will make it easier for them to give their presentation if I warm up the crowd. I might tell a part of their story, or an anecdote about something I experienced with them, or talk about something I learned from them.

For my brother, all I could do was listen while he talked, tell him he was a good person, and tell other people that he was a good person. I could show my support by writing him letters and sharing poetry with him. There might have been more that I could do, but if there was I never figured it out.

I think we all have had the frustrating experience of receiving simplistic, obvious, or ridiculous advice from people who don't actually have enough understanding about a situation to give constructive advice. We have a situation at work where many of our study participant parents/foster parents are Spanish-speaking and don't speak English well. This is a problem because we don't have foster parent assessment forms in Spanish. The simplistic/obvious answer that I initially wanted to blurt out was that we should just print some up in Spanish... as if everyone working on the study hasn't thought of that! After sitting on my idiocy for a while, and listening and asking some questions, now I know why we can't just do that. The instruments of measure themselves have gone through the scientific verification process, and as all fans of Engrish.com know, you can't simply translate one language to another language intact without shifts in meaning. Any shift in meaning, even in emphasis or nuance, would mean that the data collected using those instruments would be skewed, so instruments in Spanish would also have to go through the scientific verification process, and that could take years. I hope that equivalent Spanish instruments will someday be developed, but in the meantime, there are only about 16 months left on the study and that's not going to happen by then. It apparently took almost two years just to get a place for assessment time added to the forms. My suggestion has probably been made by every intern before me, and would have resulted in a lot of eye-rolling and probably some snarky comments after I left the room.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

Well said.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly.

This is why I also think feminists, especially women, have to find a way to engage with men who don't understand in a, well, understandable way. Just because women have been oppressed and still get screwed by our society doesn't mean you can lump them in together and refuse to talk to them on their terms...at times. EVERYONE BE FLEXIBLE AND AMICABLE OR I WILL TAKE A HAIRDRYER, DRIVE 1000 MILES NORTH AND DROWN YOU ALL.

What kills me is that we're supposedly rational mutants, but an ounce of frustrations and it's all FUCK YOU, KAI!

I think a lot of people are under quite a bit more than an ounce of frustrations already.

Yep.  Like I said, "crush depth".

What I want to know is, if WE'RE spazzing out, why aren't the humans?  Are they fucking stupid or crazy or something?

Oh, they are. They're doing some crazy fucking shit. There's all kinds of legislation out there to prevent certain people from doing what they want with their bits, and there are all kinds of people everywhere flipping the fuck out. One thing to know is that the mainstream media (which is almost all media, as you know) has essentially STOPPED covering this, especially when it's the salt-of-the-earth types who snap. People are strained; they're losing heir shit all over the place.