Prism and Verizon surveillance discussion thread

[Junkenstein]

Understatement of the year to date:

Asked what he thought would happen to him, he replied: "Nothing good."

If he's still alive by the end of the year, he will probably wish he wasn't.

His best-case seems to be some kind of Assange situation, and it's debatable how well that's working out for him. If that kid has any family he'd be smart to get them as much media time as possible ASAP.

[The Johnny]

"interrogation" then solitary for couple of years

[Junkenstein]

Part China, Part related:
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/chinas-hacking-army-is-making-a-laughing-stock-of-america

This weekend, two of the world's most powerful men met at a summit in California. American President Barack Obama and his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, were in Rancho Mirage to smooth over the bumpy issues that have been causing some awkward tension between their respective countries, the most pressing of which being the almost constant allegations of cyber espionage. That, and making the most of multiple opportunities to smile for the cameras, incessantly shake hands and generally look relaxed about being in the same room together. 

But no matter how wide and chummy the smiles, the fact remains that the cyber-war between China and the US is still very much ongoing, with countless hacking accusations already being thrown around this year. The most recent report accused China of hacking into US networks and stealing blueprints of missile systems and military aircraft. And – as you might be aware of from that time US troops exploded their own multi-million-dollar stealth helicopter on the side of Bin Laden's compound – America aren't too keen on other countries getting a look at their sophisticated killing technology. (Although, coincidentally enough, it's been alleged that Pakistan allowed China to do just that before clearing away the wreckage.)

In the wake of last week's massive leak about the secret American surveillance programme PRISM (which secured direct access to the servers of Google, Facebook, Apple and other huge US online companies), the issue of cyber security and the protection of intellectual property became a domestic issue for many Americans. So the line, "The United States and China [can] work together to address issues like cyber security and the protection of intellectual property," in Obama's opening speech was a little uncomfortable, to say the least.

Given US/UK involvement, it seems plausible to me that China/Russia at the least will be operating similar systems if not accessing directly.

Just like those Corc sandals, there aren't really any downsides to stealing someone else's work. And, as Joseph pointed out to me, China definitely doesn't care who it hacks, who it steals from and if it eventually ends up getting rumbled.

"China is seen as the biggest threat in cyberspace," he told me. "I think it's impossible to think they're the only serious threat; there are a number of other countries doing things, but they seem to care more about their operational security – they don't want to be identified as the source of a given breach, whereas some folks in China clearly do not care if we know it's them."

From that, I would guess that this implies that China has already got some sensitive information and is choosing when and whether to release it. It'd surprise me if China was totally unaware of projects like this. Looks like a mix of IP and privacy breaches.

The IP angle does make more sense thinking about the emphasis placed on the business usage. However, trying to protect IP and Patents from China makes about as much sense as invading Russia in Winter. 

[Cain]

This has more to do with cyberwarfare being the only domain in which China has an edge over the USA.

By making lots of scary noises about Chinese superiority, American justifies to its domestic audience the vast scale of spending on cybersecurity which, contrary to all claims, is offensive in nature, to erode Chinese unconventional superiority in this area.

[Junkenstein]

"Because China" is a lot better reasoning than the shitty statements given so far.

I'd guess that the above reason would probably do quite well with the US electorate if it was pitched in such a way to not indicate US deficiencies. I guess admitting any failure or weakness where China is concerned is a big political no-no.

[Doktor Howl]

This just got interesting:

A former CIA technical worker has been identified by the UK's Guardian newspaper as the source of leaks about US surveillance programmes.

Edward Snowden, 29, is described by the paper as an ex-CIA technical assistant, currently employed by defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton.

The Guardian said his identity was being revealed at his own request.

The recent revelations are that US agencies gathered millions of phone records and monitored internet data.

A spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said the matter had now been referred to the Department of Justice as a criminal matter.

The Guardian quotes Mr Snowden as saying he flew to Hong Kong on 20 May, where he holed himself up in a hotel.

He told the paper: "I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things... I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded."

They're going to extraordinarily rendition this kid and happy slap him around every CIA "black-site" on the planet before bringing him back to the US for a show trial.

I've been chewing on this all day. On the one hand I applaud the man for doing this, but on the other hand, it was a really really bad idea.

Given the fact that nothing will happen because of what he did, yes.

[Cain]

No.  The idea is to build up China as a scary evil HACKER STATE that is penetrating virgin American soil with impunity, and so the DHS and NSA and Pentagon need another trillion to defend the homeland, kthanxbai.

Whereas the truth is, in most cases the acts of espionage are low level (though still disturbing), and there is the problem of attribution, which most policymakers and intelligence people are not aware of, because oh god what is this i are not good with computer.  So, China and Iran and Russia are probably getting blamed for large-scale organized crime hacks.

China does have superiority in this sphere.  It's been looking at it since 1999 as part of its "Assassin's Mace" series of asymmetrical, unconventional warfare plans should war between the USA and China ever occur.  It's also the only sphere in which China has such an advantage.

And so that advantage must be destroyed.  While claiming, of course, such measures are for defensive purposes, even a cursory reading of the cyberwarfare directive from the White House shows that this an offensively minded program aimed at using the infrastructure of US basd companies to project power and control over the internet on a global level.  Full spectrum dominance, yo.

[Junkenstein]

I do get the reaction though. As soon as you leak anything, you have to assume you're getting black-bagged and going missing for a few years. At least by making his name and face public it becomes a little trickier to forget about you. That said, Bradley Manning's trial only started recently.

[Doktor Howl]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/10/18877589-nsa-leak-source-edward-snowden-faces-doj-investigation-and-diplomatic-game?lite

The disclosures led President Barack Obama to declare: "Nobody is listening to your telephone calls." Late last week, the president defended the programs and said Americans must understand that there are "some tradeoffs" between privacy concerns and keeping Americans safe.

Jesus, this guy sounds like Dick Cheney.   

[Junkenstein]

I'm sure there was a pretty famous quote about exchanging liberty for safety.


Not like any of you Americans would know it though.

[Don Coyote]

I'm sure there was a pretty famous quote about exchanging liberty for safety.


Not like any of you Americans would know it though.

Franklin was an extremist terrorist.

[Cain]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/10/18877589-nsa-leak-source-edward-snowden-faces-doj-investigation-and-diplomatic-game?lite

The disclosures led President Barack Obama to declare: "Nobody is listening to your telephone calls." Late last week, the president defended the programs and said Americans must understand that there are "some tradeoffs" between privacy concerns and keeping Americans safe.

Jesus, this guy sounds like Dick Cheney.   

I kinda wish it were, because if Cheney were saying it, some of the Democratic base might rouse themselves to actually argue against this shit.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm sure there was a pretty famous quote about exchanging liberty for safety.


Not like any of you Americans would know it though.

Franklin was an extremist terrorist.

It was Lord Acton.

Benjamin Franklin was a shameless epigram whore, and he ripped off anyone that was too dead to complain.

[Doktor Howl]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/10/18877589-nsa-leak-source-edward-snowden-faces-doj-investigation-and-diplomatic-game?lite

The disclosures led President Barack Obama to declare: "Nobody is listening to your telephone calls." Late last week, the president defended the programs and said Americans must understand that there are "some tradeoffs" between privacy concerns and keeping Americans safe.

Jesus, this guy sounds like Dick Cheney.   

I kinda wish it were, because if Cheney were saying it, some of the Democratic base might rouse themselves to actually argue against this shit.

America plays politics like kids used to play musical chairs.  When the music stops every 4 years, you argue the chair you're in, and you don't question it.

[Don Coyote]

I'm sure there was a pretty famous quote about exchanging liberty for safety.


Not like any of you Americans would know it though.

Franklin was an extremist terrorist.

It was Lord Acton.

Benjamin Franklin was a shameless epigram whore, and he ripped off anyone that was too dead to complain.

I probably should have known that.