Time to release the hostage?

[Payne]

Time to release the hostage?

I'm a big fan of rearranging the furniture in my house. I love to put familiar things in unfamiliar places. It always seem to make everything seem at the same time less and more.

I would also probably be the nightmare of a proponant of Feng Shui.

I had occasion to think about some old concepts, Hodge and Podge in particular, but it doesn't really matter what the concepts were. I've found that, even though I believe I know what they mean, I don't have as much time for them because they haven't evolved much since they were first committed to paper. In fact this is probably the reason why I stuck around PD when I came. The BIP as an evolution and re-evaluation of the PD intrigued me, and the added emphasis on ALL aspects of "humanity" as displayed by some of PD's members. This Discordia isn't a love in, or head in the clouds bullshit.

In the process of considering what it is about these older concepts that makes me, I don't know... Uncomfortable? I thought about the BIP metaphor again, and I keep getting the nagging feling that although this is a concept that promotes change, it doesn't in fact change much itself.

You can change your cell, but the prison always seems to remain the same.

Now I understand that this solid, stable metaphor is neccesary for a communicable metaphor, one which you can pass to people unconected with Discordianism and reasonably expect them to understand, it does leave you at kind of a dead end afterwards. It invites the question "What next?". Of course the answer is to continue changing your cell, but can we change the prison? is that the next next step?

I tried to look into some of these ideas with "Paths" and "Shrapnel" with inconclusive results. I still feel I (we?) are missing a crucial evolutionary aspect in the BIP, one with which we can describe or even predict how and why the prison must change over time. (I tried to "expand/contract" it with "paths" "add on/subtract from" with "shrapnel", in earlier notes I had) I wasn't sure what my few conclusions meant. I'm guessing neither did you, or at least little has been said about it.

Here are some questions I thought of while writing the notes for this: Is the BIP capable of programming itself, in much the same way our cells programme themselves (through us). Does it really matter if it does or not?

Are these questions only interesting to me because of my dislike of static oncepts and my propensity for rearranging the furniture?

Do i have too much time on my hands, or is it time to release the hostage?

[Cramulus]

Hmmm -- I think with a careful arrangement of bars, you change your Black Iron Prison into a Golden Sphere of Possibility.

Since it's a personal transition, you don't need to work in small little bites, like you do when trying to alter the Machine^TM. You can make radical personal changes and- perhaps - not just spruce up your cell, but realize that it's actually a not-so-bad room in a mansion.

[Payne]

But thats still basically the same thing.

I'm not suggesting we break free of the prison. I'm only suggesting that an evolutionary aspect in the concept as a whole. might be a good thing.

The PD in the '60s was a good concept for the time. It has been refined and changed and evolved to the BIP, which is good today. Where do we go next?

The BIP is not definitive, I feel, and none of these concepts ever really can be, but an evolution of the concept can't be a bad thing, can it?

[Payne]

Here are some more thoughts I'm bouncing around.

if we forget for a moment that you can change your cell/room or whatever, and consider that the unbreakoutable element of the BIP has been inherent since the PD, then you can consider that the prison itself is evolving. Kinda like the prison is a house boat and the river is time. Where is the prison going next? what will the next evolution be? how can we affect it's evolution ourselves, to our advantage?

[Verbal Mike]

I think you bring up a good point. Even as new as I am here and to the BIP metaphor, now that you mention it I think I've had this nagging feeling as well, that more change and movement is necessary.
I wasn't here to witness it, but I take it the BIP pamphlet was first written following a rapid kind of Renaissance, a short period of time in which many new thoughts surfaced on these boards. I take it a similar thing happened around the time when Cram produced the second version of the pamphlet.
And I get the feeling we may be heading into another short Reneissance. Then again, I may just be filtering things through my personal feeling of rapid change, which is directly affected by my "discovery" of BIP and the PD.com boards.

This is one of those places that the Five Seasons metaphor is incredibly useful. I think what you're expressing, Payne, is the frustration of Bureaucracy. And I think I share that frustration, even if I have no right to (cause what have I even done so far for Change?)
That last post highlights a symptom of Bureaucracy. Taking the BIP metaphor and and turning it into a house boat sounds a bit like you're stretching a metaphor you love a bit too far.

I have no new thoughts to give right now, and I have a busy day ahead of me, but I'll meditate on this.

[Verbal Mike]

Okay, I have a new metaphor in mind (it involves flies, shit, honey and amoebas). Need to write out a parable to illustrate it, so it will be up this evening (i.e, in about five hours).

[AFK]

Here are some questions I thought of while writing the notes for this: Is the BIP capable of programming itself, in much the same way our cells programme themselves (through us). Does it really matter if it does or not?

I would say we could never really tell.  But it may have to do with how I view BIP from a macro point of view.  I guess I tend to think of the Prison in similar terms to how Hill/Thornley talk about Reality in the PD, specifically the part about Reality Grids.  Also, I think of Prison cells in terms of aesthetics and visualisation.  I don't think of it as literal freedom-impairing imprisonment, but that they are our metaphysical surroundings.  Using prison cells as the image is handy because of the bars.

Anyhoo, so from my perspective I don't think you can answer that question, because in my perspective the Prison is Reality, the Cells are kind of like our Reality Grid.   We can change them, move them, expand them, but we can never make them so large that they map out the whole Prison.  We simply don't have enough input, nor do we have the capability to process and plot out all of that input. 

Are these questions only interesting to me because of my dislike of static oncepts and my propensity for rearranging the furniture?

Nah, I think it shows a desire to see more and understand more of the picture and one I share.  I think it to be a sad state of affairs when someone leaves their ability and desire to wonder about what's going on with their pencils and crayons in school. 

[AFK]

But thats still basically the same thing.

I'm not suggesting we break free of the prison. I'm only suggesting that an evolutionary aspect in the concept as a whole. might be a good thing.

The PD in the '60s was a good concept for the time. It has been refined and changed and evolved to the BIP, which is good today. Where do we go next?

The BIP is not definitive, I feel, and none of these concepts ever really can be, but an evolution of the concept can't be a bad thing, can it?

This is good, you are jogging my memory and what was going through my head when I proposed the "Shrapnel" idea.  I think the BIP sort of lays out the boundaries, not that we can really concretely draw them out on paper.  I remember another concept I was working with when I was contemplating "Shrapnel" was Syndemics. 

A rough recap, Syndemics is the idea that one thing can affect or play into a multitude of conditions.  For example, Thing X has been demonstrated to have a role in ADD, Substance Abuse, Cancer, and Impotence (I'm just making this up so don't read too much into these examples).  The idea is that if you change Thing X, you can have an impact on ADD, Substance Abuse, Cancer, and Impotence.

So, maybe, with BIP we've figured out (kind of) the lay of the land.  The territory, now it's about looking inward, looking at mechanics.  For example, if one could discover a Thing X that impacts Closed Mindedness, Apathy, and Tyranny, then perhaps one could think of ways to address or impact Thing X, and therefore, make impacts on Closed Mindedness, Apathy, and Tyranny.  (again just examples)

So with the Shrapnel thing, I talked about how Religion could be one of those pieces of Shrapnel, and how it can impact how one consciously or unconsciously picks their Paths, or how they walk their Paths.  And so we find that Religion is something that informs Closed Mindedness, Tyranny, and Policy.  Of course, then the trick is, what is there to be done about it?  You certainly can't get people to stop being Religious, but can people have a different perspective on how their Religion should impact their broader society, including those who don't share their beliefs?

Ultimately though, one could feel like their pissing into the wind, so all of this is probably just meaningless mental masturbation.

Anyone got a smoke?

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Here are some questions I thought of while writing the notes for this: Is the BIP capable of programming itself, in much the same way our cells programme themselves (through us). Does it really matter if it does or not?

If this is the case, which I tend to agree with you here, then is it that the change is so slow and so subtle that you don't realize it has happened until it's major?  (Remember I'm a mother so pardon my example) It is like a child you haven't seen in a few months and when you do you are like "Look how much you have grown/changed" yet the parents do not see what you see because they see the child every day.  I don't think we notice the gradual evolving around us, it has to be a bit 'in your face, tear it up and start over' for us to see it quickly.

Are these questions only interesting to me because of my dislike of static oncepts and my propensity for rearranging the furniture?

Do i have too much time on my hands, or is it time to release the hostage?

No I don't think it's you, or maybe it's because I rearrange my house many times throughout the year as well.  I think there are those of us who do not have the patience, or maybe tolerance to wait for the change, we have to get the ball rolling so to speak.

As for releasing the hostage, well if you know where the door is, why be a hostage at all?

You have given me a lot to think on!

[Payne]

I have a big transcript I need to edit and throw up here later, a conversation I had with Eve in IM. Hopefully I'll get that done Before I have to leave for Edinburgh tomorrow.

Also, asa note to Khara: The hostage isn't us, the tostage is the (what I think of) static concept of the BIP.

[Cramulus]

So with the Shrapnel thing, I talked about how Religion could be one of those pieces of Shrapnel, and how it can impact how one consciously or unconsciously picks their Paths, or how they walk their Paths.  And so we find that Religion is something that informs Closed Mindedness, Tyranny, and Policy.  Of course, then the trick is, what is there to be done about it?  You certainly can't get people to stop being Religious, but can people have a different perspective on how their Religion should impact their broader society, including those who don't share their beliefs?

Actually, I think we're already doing what we should be doing, at least on a small scale.

This touches on Vex's idea of meme hacking by "branding" one meme with another.

One of the big thrusts of the Discordian movement is to decrease the gravity of religion. It helps people think about their beliefs as a joke, and thereby not get weighed down by it. Will it - on some scale - help people from becoming suicide bombers? Probably not. But I bet we've stopped people from condeming each other, and I bet we've helped people understand that your morals and your sense of "I should..." can come from yourself, shmuck, because you're a pope too.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Also, asa note to Khara: The hostage isn't us, the tostage is the (what I think of) static concept of the BIP.

My thoughts on hostage vs prisoner are pretty serious.  However, putting it the way you have I see what you are saying and will have to toss it around with my son for a bit before I go there

[AFK]

So with the Shrapnel thing, I talked about how Religion could be one of those pieces of Shrapnel, and how it can impact how one consciously or unconsciously picks their Paths, or how they walk their Paths.  And so we find that Religion is something that informs Closed Mindedness, Tyranny, and Policy.  Of course, then the trick is, what is there to be done about it?  You certainly can't get people to stop being Religious, but can people have a different perspective on how their Religion should impact their broader society, including those who don't share their beliefs?

Actually, I think we're already doing what we should be doing, at least on a small scale.

This touches on Vex's idea of meme hacking by "branding" one meme with another.

One of the big thrusts of the Discordian movement is to decrease the gravity of religion. It helps people think about their beliefs as a joke, and thereby not get weighed down by it. Will it - on some scale - help people from becoming suicide bombers? Probably not. But I bet we've stopped people from condeming each other, and I bet we've helped people understand that your morals and your sense of "I should..." can come from yourself, shmuck, because you're a pope too.

I don't doubt it, and really that's all we can expect for change I think, small scale.  But I think there are probably other of these Things we can find and look to have some kind of small scale impact on.  I need to contemplate on this some more and maybe come up with a list of other Things, and what they may potentially impact. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The Map is not the Territory The Menu is not the Meal and the Model isn't the Thing being modeled.

I think that some people may have read the PD and then think that's as far (or as evolved) as the metaphors have gone. This though, in my experience hasn't been the case. RAW, Carroll, Hine, Alli, Stang etc etc have all been writing books since then and have taken the metaphor in a number of different ways. Herein lies the big conundrum that I find with PD.com sometimes. Sombunal people on here think that the PD is old and crufty and in need of a good remodeling, but they don't appear to want to read the stuff that's been remodeled. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular, mind you. We are a diverse group and we all have our own backgrounds and opinions. (I'm not even saying that you SHOULD read these authors... only that they have been evolving the model).


The PD doesn't appear, in my opinion, as the last word, or a stagnant set of ideas... it appears to me as a beginning. People started at the beginning and then moved forward, mixing the memes they found there with other memes from their own life experiences. Carroll expands the Reality Grid/Tunnel Metaphor to discuss 'magic' and how magic and ritual can be modeled as modifications to our reality tunnel. Phil Hine, takes that same concept and grounds it a bit more in psychology modeling magic as a big metaphor for self-psychotherapy, in order to effect changes in how we perceive the world and modify our reality grid/tunnel/BiP/Whatever. Antero Alli, with his crazy background in art, theater and performance has utilized the "reality grid" and the 8 circuit model to develop a sort of theatrical system designed to manipulate the perceptions of the individual (Paratheatrics). Wilson has written some fantastic essays, books etc all discussing aspects of these models, where they appear to work, where they seem to fail and how he used them and what he perceived that he experienced while using different methods to manipulate these grids, tunnels and circuits.

Even the BiP seems to me as another potential path that has sprung off of the PD as a beginning. Should we call the seed stagnant?

To think that Cosmic Trigger, Reality is What You Can Get Away With, Angel Tech, Book of Atem, Psychonaut, or any of the other books will not (in and of themselves) stagnate and die seems silly. Anytime something is written down, it has become static. However, that doesn't mean that the ideas, the memes or memetic entities are stagnant. When a person reads any of these writings, the memes infect their mind. They mix with other memes and might form new ideas, or maybe clarifications of ideas, or clarifications of models. There's no need, in my opinion to try to stretch one model to be THE NEVER STAGNATING MODEL; that seems like an absurdity to me. Any model shows us a way of looking at/ordering stuff, based on the current levels of knowledge and ignorance about the subject... as we gain new knowledge, we'll probably need new models.

Memes, like genes don't stagnate, because they connect with other memes and form new memetic combinations. Memes in that configuration can then connect to new memes and form other, different memetic combinations.  Stagnation, if referencing the PD, seems (in my opinion) only to exist in the minds of people that believe (in the bad sense) what they read in the PD.

Just my thoughts...

[Payne]

Uh, you didn't need the scrolling banner at the top. I'm well aware of those phrases and what they mean (to me at least)

I agree with you to a large extent. I wouldn't say that the BIP is stagnant, only that it is relatively static as an idea.

Maybe an exploration as to why various evolutions of the ideas and concepts in the PD aren't as popular, even though they MAY be more relevent is kind of the tack I'm on.

And how we can look at the BIP to make it apply more to non-discordians.

See: The transcript I'l post later today.