Principia Discordia

I was thinking about this during my commute to work this morning.

Assuming one of our aims with BIP, etc. is to open minds, how do you deal with a defensive personality?  Or do you?

I'm just thinking you can start an honest and civil discussion with someone about BIP/Discordian ideas, etc.  In general sort of terms of course.

Then, if you are dealing with someone who tends to be quite defensive, you get to that point where something snaps in their head:  "Wait, are you preaching to me?"  or "Are you trying to convert me?" or something along those lines.

Is there a way to diffuse this? 

Thoughts?

I think the best way to do it would be to screen your audience in advance. If you were to know someone was deeply religous, you would be better off not giving anything a name, because it is less scary / disturbing / diffrent that way

I play it by ear but there are a number of ways to get past a defensive person's metality.  Several of them are, to me, quite underhand and possibly dangerous in the wrong hands, but the most simple advice is to understand their worldview, sympathise with it and work from within that model to undermine it.

Tone and attitude are two major things to watch out for.

That, and use of buzzwords.

If you can steer a conversation towards BIP concepts, you shouldn't sound preachy, and you aren't trying to "win". ¬†You're trying for self-discovery. ¬†If you sound preachy, or use differnently-defined words (Prison Break, Barstool, Machine,Ñ¢, CoN, etc), your subject won't come to the conclusions themselves, they'll feel they are being fed a crock of shit.

And you can't give them the whole spiel at once, you have to let them digest the small bits of it first, and then maybe they'll be able to see a lager picture.

Quote from: Cain on December 12, 2006, 02:55:31 PM
I play it by ear but there are a number of ways to get past a defensive person's metality.  Several of them are, to me, quite underhand and possibly dangerous in the wrong hands, but the most simple advice is to understand their worldview, sympathise with it and work from within that model to undermine it.

That sounds suspiciously like Scientology, actually.

Quote from: LMNO on December 12, 2006, 02:57:46 PM

Quote from: Cain on December 12, 2006, 02:55:31 PM
I play it by ear but there are a number of ways to get past a defensive person's metality.  Several of them are, to me, quite underhand and possibly dangerous in the wrong hands, but the most simple advice is to understand their worldview, sympathise with it and work from within that model to undermine it.

That sounds suspiciously like Scientology, actually.

Dr Heracy passed along a small ton of text files on Scientology to me a while back.  I also have several dozen books on eliciting information from people - from police interrogation techniques to body language to so-called seduction techniques.  All of them come down to the same basic idea, really, though the approaches are different based on context and aim.

And let's not forget L Ron spent quite a lot of time with Crowley and the Golden Dawn.

I thought it was the OTO he was more involved with?  Though of course I don't doubt Crowley took most of their useful stuff with him to the OTO.

Maybe it was the OTO.

But I do recall a rumor that L Ron and AC tried to create the Moonchild.

And ripped open bloody great holes in the fabric of reality.  But that was this century, so it had to be OTO.

Gotcha.


Y'know, maybe I should get my Scientologist brother The Book of Lies for Xmas.

your brothers a scientologist?

you probably know more about the religion then most of us

i haven't even heard of a scientologist up here
they probably havent pierced this far north

Where you at?


Scientology seems to be everywhere.

Its not too hard to learn about Scientology, actually.  Despite the leadership's paranoia inspired secrecy, alt.scientology, operation clambake and xenu.net all have tons of good information and alt.scientology often puts up text versions of Scientology books and other works for the public to steal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Sudbury%2C_Ontario

honestly havent heard of any scientolgists
pretty sure they dont have a church anywhere up here
though they maybe really underground

Actually, I think Canada and the CoS are not on the best of terms.  The UK threw Hubbard out in the 60s and many commonwealth states took a similar stance, because of the common law thing.

i know alot of stuff about scientology in terms of their core beliefs

but cause ive never met one or talked to one Ive never had a "feeling" for it
- best way I could describe it
kind of like when the jehovas come to your door you could get a better idea of their faith by talking to them rather then reading those little pamphlets they hand out

there is a scientology church down in toronto, but honestly everytime im in the big city the thought never crossed my mind

This is the closest I found.

http://www.scientology-tor.ca/

The more i read on this site, the more controllingand anti-discordian the posts seem to be.

QuoteAssuming one of our aims with BIP, etc. is to open minds, how do you deal with a defensive personality?  Or do you?

If your aim is to forcibly open peoples heads and insert your dogma instead of the one they currenty carry, then please to be going ahead! Like it was pointed out, this is like the dyanetics idiots on the street with their clipboards and surveys.

QuoteThen, if you are dealing with someone who tends to be quite defensive, you get to that point where something snaps in their head:  "Wait, are you preaching to me?"  or "Are you trying to convert me?" or something along those lines.

There's just one way to deal with a defensive personality in my experience, leave them well alone. If you can't have an open a frank discussion with them, it's not your place to change them. Just like all of us, the change has to be made internally and on our own terms, they'll hopefully figure it out one day.

QuoteIs there a way to diffuse this? 

Just walk away.

what are the principles of Discordianism as you see them?

if youre interested on the background of this situation - the issues you are bringing up were all brought back in April or May
- there was some concern about what seemed to be anti-discordian


but
what course of action do you take when you come to a point where you acknowledge that you personally have more freedom of movement when everybody has freedom of movement?

and notice i said freedom of movement



one of the things that get mentioned from time to time is how strange it is that everybody here disagrees on virtually everything EXCEPT that one principle

you are right: it is a matter of self savior

but its also a matter of making the tools available for people to help themselves as well


if i was in a situation where it was realistic to 'leave people alone' and 'be left alone', then thats exactly what i do

but as long as im in a situation where people approach me, im gonna be encouraging them not to come with the same re-packaged shit thats already been heard before



who helped you make your 'internal change'?
do you believe it was for the better?
wouldnt you want to see other people have that same opportunity?

Laz,

Have you forgotten The Primer for Erisian Evangelicists (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/72.php), in our very own Principia Discordia?

Those are the seeds we are growing, and they have reached this stage.  Some of us have reached the conclusion that letting cabbages walk around being cabbage-y is not "wu-wei" or "live and let live"-- it's just lazy.


Coleslaw, baby.  Coleslaw.

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 01:09:09 PM
Have you forgotten The Primer for Erisian Evangelicists (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/72.php), in our very own Principia Discordia?

wait...

you mean theres a book about this??

Clicky Linkie, darling.

Quotewhat are the principles of Discordianism as you see them?

See the word principle bothers me there, the fact that there is a book on the subject bothers me further, even this forum bothers me and is to strict with conformances to OP's being used as weapons, but i accept that you can't speak to everyone individually so the written word is best when it is shared.

For me discordianism is everything that the law and order of society isn't. To constrain people to rules and to educate them in how to put themselves in prison is fundamentally loathsome.

The best thing i can see is to let them come to you (i'm not against that your know), let them engage you and then explain how things are. If they chose to argue, show them answers, but when they become stuck like records or defensive to the point they play all offended then time has come to walk away, not everybody can be saved. Some love their little boxes.

Quoteand notice i said freedom of movement

I did notice, and got confused, movement is irrelevant, i am born of this planet so this planet is mine and nobody should stop me crossing borders or countries. If you refer to us having more movement available than ever before then i would say that that is true but we are behind more bars than ever, you try staying in a country when your visa runs out.

Quote'leave people alone' and 'be left alone'

Not me, i can mix it with the best of them and like to be taken for a ride myself.

Quotebut as long as im in a situation where people approach me, im gonna be encouraging them not to come with the same re-packaged shit thats already been heard before

Completely agree, but i was refering before to those that just argue the same point and are defensive to the point of distraction.

Quotewho helped you make your 'internal change'?

It was a religious nut who kept chaning his name and personality. He was an arrogant, stubborn, son of a bitch called either Joe, Preacher Joe, Bubba Joe, or Mahadava depending on his mood.

Quotedo you believe it was for the better?

Absolutely, but i was the seeker, he didn't come looking for me, and quite often refused to reply to me at all.

Quotewouldnt you want to see other people have that same opportunity?

Everybody already has the opportunity, always have had.

By the way, incase i don't get a chance later, Merry Christmas everyone :0)

QuoteFor me discordianism is everything that the law and order of society isn't. To constrain people to rules and to educate them in how to put themselves in prison is fundamentally loathsome.

So, you're an anarchist?


What about the Hodge and Podge?

Not to mention, the Eristic Illusion.




LMNO
-Old School Erisian Theologist.

QuoteHave you forgotten The Primer for Erisian Evangelicists, in our very own Principia Discordia?

Just started reading it, haven't got that far yet. Only read Illuminatus book one so far but the "principles" of Discordianism/Erisism are very familiar to me.

QuoteThose are the seeds we are growing, and they have reached this stage.  Some of us have reached the conclusion that letting cabbages walk around being cabbage-y is not "wu-wei" or "live and let live"-- it's just lazy.

Whatever works for you LMNO, personally banging my head against a wall continually, hurts.

QuoteSo, you're an anarchist?

Boxes, boxes! If you want to know me, get to know me

Just working off the information you're giving me, sweetie.

judging, guessing, assigning, filing, breifing, de-briefing, indexing, stamping, numbering, Ooh, i've gone all Prisoner!

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 09:33:50 AM
The more i read on this site, the more controllingand anti-discordian the posts seem to be.

QuoteAssuming one of our aims with BIP, etc. is to open minds, how do you deal with a defensive personality?  Or do you?

If your aim is to forcibly open peoples heads and insert your dogma instead of the one they currenty carry, then please to be going ahead! Like it was pointed out, this is like the dyanetics idiots on the street with their clipboards and surveys.

who said anything about using force?  The issue I am talking about is when you engage in a consentual discussion and then defenses get put up.  I've had experience with this and I was looking for insight from others.  

Quote

QuoteThen, if you are dealing with someone who tends to be quite defensive, you get to that point where something snaps in their head:  "Wait, are you preaching to me?"  or "Are you trying to convert me?" or something along those lines.

There's just one way to deal with a defensive personality in my experience, leave them well alone. If you can't have an open a frank discussion with them, it's not your place to change them. Just like all of us, the change has to be made internally and on our own terms, they'll hopefully figure it out one day.

Again, as others have mentioned.  It isn't the goal for us to change them.  It is for them to change themselves.  Or at least be able to see that there are such options.  I've always said that those armed with themselves have the best chance at making it.  

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 02:03:13 PM
judging, guessing, assigning, filing, breifing, de-briefing, indexing, stamping, numbering,

And without it, we'd have been eaten by wolves by now.

Laz: do you live in a place where bullets dont pierce skin and you cannot be imprisoned for things you didnt do?

Quote from: LazNot me, i can mix it with the best of them and like to be taken for a ride myself.

Have you ever heard the saying "More fun than you really wanted"?


And what encouraged you to seek the seeker?

Whats all the Nine-Inch-Nails stuff on your website?

Is he a personal friend that you are trying to help promote?

Does he see it the same way as you?

Or does his words encourage you on your way?

YOu should really wait 15 posts before you start down that line.

why? maybe we are dealing with the guy from Nine Inch Nails here

he can help us get a distribution deal

QuoteLaz: do you live in a place where bullets dont pierce skin and you cannot be imprisoned for things you didnt do?

Yes, don't you?

QuoteHave you ever heard the saying "More fun than you really wanted"?

Yes, i saw it somewhere else on the board, seemed to be a poke at those still trapped.

QuoteAnd what encouraged you to seek the seeker?

Whats all the Nine-Inch-Nails stuff on your website?

Is he a personal friend that you are trying to help promote?

Does he see it the same way as you?

Or does his words encourage you on your way?

So many questions at once, you really must be paranoid. I'm pleased to have fuelled your fancy

Quote

QuoteHave you ever heard the saying "More fun than you really wanted"?

Yes, i saw it somewhere else on the board, seemed to be a poke at those still trapped.

Nah, I think it would be more appropriate for a Welcome sign for those entertaining the idea of visiting Earth.

The more and more I learn about the peculiar intricacies of human behavior, the more and more I believe it to be appropriate.

Humans do some really, really stupid things.  But that's for another thread....

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 02:16:39 PM

QuoteAnd what encouraged you to seek the seeker?

Whats all the Nine-Inch-Nails stuff on your website?

Is he a personal friend that you are trying to help promote?

Does he see it the same way as you?

Or does his words encourage you on your way?

So many questions at once, you really must be paranoid. I'm pleased to have fuelled your fancy

whatever i can do to encourage some self-reflection

evasion is a good tactic

i used it many times in the past when i couldnt back what i was talking

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 02:16:39 PM

QuoteLaz: do you live in a place where bullets dont pierce skin and you cannot be imprisoned for things you didnt do?

Yes, don't you?

so you proceed by watching?

thats a little contradictory and self-destructive

Quoteso you proceed by watching?

thats a little contradictory and self-destructive

eh? what?

Quoteevasion is a good tactic

i used it many times in the past when i couldnt back what i was talking

It is a good tactic, a little more grown up than goading people but me cassa su cassa :0)

Hey!  That was a nice self-recursive move there, Laz!


Especially with the quick edit.

there was some talk of equals yesterday, well i don't wish to be anything more than i am

Heh.

lol

i even sent a nice olive branch PM to Laz yesterday

what do you want, a medal that says eternal friendship?

naw

i just dont wanna hurt your feelings

yeah that's how it read.

i take no responsibility for how you interpret messages

lol :0)

So, whats your beef with my website?

dam you read a lot more into what gets said than what actually appears on the screen

is this a trend of yours?


the layout and design is nice

sorry, its the English in me :0)

You flatter me, i'm really not out to represent anyone/thing, or push anything on to you lot here. The site does what it says on the opening page, serving as a dump of stuff for me to remember.

you do acknowledge the inconsistencies between the angle you have been coming from here, and the picture you paint on your site, right?

It's a Pensive!







Ack!


Damn, that just slipped out.  sorry.


LMNO
-beats his Harry Potter geekdom back in it's cage.

The site is a journey, i'm at the leading edge of that journey, not at the beginning. Soon the BIP will be entered on the site as my newest discovery :0)

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 03:15:17 PM
It's a Pensive!

English translation?

You really don't want to know.

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 03:15:31 PM
The site is a journey, i'm at the leading edge of that journey, not at the beginning. Soon the BIP will be entered on the site as my newest discovery :0)

English translation?

Quote

QuoteThe site is a journey, i'm at the leading edge of that journey, not at the beginning. Soon the BIP will be entered on the site as my newest discovery :0)

English translation?

I assume you mean that the site starts with a call for help "cause everythings so fucked up and my life is a mess" message?

If so then i've come a long way in six years, the site is a historical document for me, so i can see where i've been.

How do you know you are at the "leading edge" ?

fair point, i've been round a few loops! but there is still detectable movement.

so - rather than bringing up issues that we have already discussed here - why wouldnt you give us the benefit of the doubt and/or do some archiving to see whether we had some dogmatic agenda?

what has led you to be of the nature of making so many assumptions?

does it have something to do with this soul torturing business?

Quoterather than bringing up issues that we have already discussed here

With a forum as big as this one, you are going to get repeats over and over, I am trying to read as much of what has gone before but i am new here! looking forward to my 50th post ;0)

Quotewhat has led you to be of the nature of making so many assumptions?

My human frailty? i don't know, why do you do it?

Quotedoes it have something to do with this soul torturing business?

What's that then?

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 03:42:48 PM

Quoterather than bringing up issues that we have already discussed here

With a forum as big as this one, you are going to get repeats over and over, I am trying to read as much of what has gone before but i am new here! looking forward to my 50th post ;0)

I don't know.  I think things around here evolve and flow enough.  I think there is far less repetition here as compared to other message boards I've been on. 

yea no but seriously, please answer the question

> why wouldnt you give us the benefit of the doubt and/or do some archiving to see whether we had some dogmatic agenda?

cause you conveniently left the one interesting question out?

also,

> are you the guy from NIN?

Quotewhy wouldnt you give us the benefit of the doubt and/or do some archiving to see whether we had some dogmatic agenda?

But i have, but you do!

Quoteare you the guy from NIN?

Trent Reznor i am not. try myspace ;0)

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 03:54:27 PM

Quotewhy wouldnt you give us the benefit of the doubt and/or do some archiving to see whether we had some dogmatic agenda?

But i have, but you do!

Please to be quoting said dogmatisms.

ah! they are all coming out now, even those that just sit and watch, offence is rife here eh? well you know what goes with offence, attachment.

Just what is the principia discordia if its not the dogma of chaos? This a joke religion, or a religion disguised as a joke! please to be correcting me if i have made a fatal error. Chaos is uncontrollable, unmanageable, and free, following the rules of chaos is not freedom.

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 03:42:48 PM
My human frailty? i don't know, why do you do it?

lol human frailty card

thats gonna get you far


throw rocks then back down right?

and if your debating skills are good enough, you might just get out of it...

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
ah! they are all coming out now, even those that just sit and watch, offence is rife here eh? well you know what goes with offence, attachment.

Just what is the principia discordia if its not the dogma of chaos? This a joke religion, or a religion disguised as a joke! please to be correcting me if i have made a fatal error. Chaos is uncontrollable, unmanageable, and free, following the rules of chaos is not freedom.

Dude, we got past the PD a long time ago. We actually don't even like talking about it anymore, really. Moved on to other subjects.

Just sayin'.

Quotethrow rocks then back down right?

and if your debating skills are good enough, you might just get out of it...

And there's the double dare again, do you really think that debating a particular point makes you anything or gets you anywhere at all? Wasn't it you that insisted on the Original Post being gospel to peoples subsequent statements?

QuoteDude, we got past the PD a long time ago. We actually don't even like talking about it anymore, really. Moved on to other subjects.

Just sayin'.

So whats your problem, what are you just saying?

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
ah! they are all coming out now, even those that just sit and watch, offence is rife here eh? well you know what goes with offence, attachment.

Just what is the principia discordia if its not the dogma of chaos? This a joke religion, or a religion disguised as a joke! please to be correcting me if i have made a fatal error. Chaos is uncontrollable, unmanageable, and free, following the rules of chaos is not freedom.

1.  Don't take it personally.  You made the accusation of dogma; you should expect more than a few people to respond to that.

2.  The PD does not seem to be the dogma of chaos.  Because it is chaos, it does not have a predictable order.  Since it does not have a predictable order, it cannot be dogma, commonly defined as, "a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church".  The PD "is" neither a religion, nor a joke.  It "is" whatever the individual sees it as.  

In fact, the PD itself actually calls it's suggestions "catmas" for this very reason.  The fact that you even attempted to classify the PD as a dogma makes very clear that you have not read the PD thoroughly.

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:04:00 PMJust what is the principia discordia if its not the dogma of chaos? This a joke religion, or a religion disguised as a joke! please to be correcting me if i have made a fatal error. Chaos is uncontrollable, unmanageable, and free, following the rules of chaos is not freedom.

actually, this is sort of what we are discussing here. feel free to join in, but don't be all smartypants like "explain to me what you think you are doing here so i can shoot it down", it's not getting anybody any further. and you probably wouldn't enjoy it as much as your past ~48 posts

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:10:56 PM

QuoteDude, we got past the PD a long time ago. We actually don't even like talking about it anymore, really. Moved on to other subjects.

Just sayin'.

So whats your problem, what are you just saying?

QuoteJust what is the principia discordia if its not the dogma of chaos? This a joke religion, or a religion disguised as a joke! please to be correcting me if i have made a fatal error. Chaos is uncontrollable, unmanageable, and free, following the rules of chaos is not freedom.

Thats what Im saying. You continuously contradict yourself, and you still want us to take you seriously. We're a bit jaded here.

Really just sayin'.

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
ah! they are all coming out now, even those that just sit and watch, offence is rife here eh? well you know what goes with offence, attachment.

Just what is the principia discordia if its not the dogma of chaos? This a joke religion, or a religion disguised as a joke! please to be correcting me if i have made a fatal error. Chaos is uncontrollable, unmanageable, and free, following the rules of chaos is not freedom.

o gee

we havent been over that yet either

maybe we can learn to move in the Right Direction,Ñ¢ like Real Discordians,Ñ¢

Search the archives around late summer - fall 2005 and previous

I would still be interested in a quoting of some dogma that has come forth from this site.  

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:09:53 PM
Wasn't it you that insisted on the Original Post being gospel to peoples subsequent statements?

where in the blazes do you come up with this stuff?

i remember saying something about not making false assumptions or putting words into peoples mouth, but i dont recall saying anything about the gospels?

Quote1.  Don't take it personally.

why do you suppose i have? if the pace of the conversation denotes personal feelings then blame the language.

Quote
The fact that you even attempted to classify the PD as a dogma makes very clear that you have not read the PD thoroughly.

It is very clear that you have not read my previous statements.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 20, 2006, 04:16:19 PM
I would still be interested in a quoting of some dogma that has come forth from this site. 

proof is so old fashioned, Rev

quit oppressing the new posters

What's the point in asserting and not offering proof to validate assertions.  I would hope Mr. Laz would recognize that in this forum most of the times we are asking questions and not making blanket, dogmatic, "gospel."  If he has found that we have done so it would be a nice gesture if he would point it out so we could correct it. 

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:16:56 PM

Quote1.  Don't take it personally.

why do you suppose i have?

Quoteah! they are all coming out now, even those that just sit and watch, offence is rife here eh?

That's why.  Quit the passive agressive bullshit, buddy.

Quote

Quote
The fact that you even attempted to classify the PD as a dogma makes very clear that you have not read the PD thoroughly.

It is very clear that you have not read my previous statements.

I have.  You said you hadn't read it.  So, now you're commenting on things you know nothing about.  Smooth.

Quotebut i dont recall saying anything about the gospels?

not the gospels, but "gospel". As in it is holy and divine!

Quote from: LHX on December 20, 2006, 04:17:33 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 20, 2006, 04:16:19 PM
I would still be interested in a quoting of some dogma that has come forth from this site. 

proof is so old fashioned, Rev

quit oppressing the new posters

Yay! Give 'em plenty of rope and cheer them on.

Quotenot the gospels, but "gospel". As in it is holy and divine!

No one said that, either.


Where do you come up with all this shit, anyway?

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 04:21:37 PM

Quotenot the gospels, but "gospel". As in it is holy and divine!

No one said that, either.


Where do you come up with all this shit, anyway?

My brain tells me - I jus write it down.

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:20:46 PM

Quotebut i dont recall saying anything about the gospels?

not the gospels, but "gospel". As in it is holy and divine!

o rly
please to be keeping up wiff the class

Quote from: SillyCybin on December 20, 2006, 04:22:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 04:21:37 PM

Quotenot the gospels, but "gospel". As in it is holy and divine!

No one said that, either.


Where do you come up with all this shit, anyway?

My brain tells me - I jus write it down.

Actually silly-- you didn't say that.

confusion ITT

Tessixy Afore! tooo fast!

what is it with you lot, are you all on some easily offended scholarship?

You lot go write a book and post it to me if you want me to comment on particular things you've said and i'll review it for you, line by line. I'll write all of it in red ink so it's easily visible and assign you each a unique identifier so you can see who i'm offending where.

Until then except that you ain't perfect and get over yourselves. theres a prison inside the black iron prison called the fear of having said something wrong and having pride in what you have said.

Laz is using internet on Speak and Spell

(http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/media/Kb2qBLsuhdw.jpg)

cant keep up

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:27:19 PM
Tessixy Afore! tooo fast!

what is it with you lot, are you all on some easily offended scholarship?

You lot go write a book and post it to me if you want me to comment on particular things you've said and i'll review it for you, line by line. I'll write all of it in red ink so it's easily visible and assign you each a unique identifier so you can see who i'm offending where.

Until then except that you ain't perfect and get over yourselves. theres a prison inside the black iron prison called the fear of having said something wrong and having pride in what you have said.

cop and out.

classic.

same again tomorrow?

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:27:19 PMwhat is it with you lot, are you all on some easily offended scholarship?

YES WE ARE! OKAY?! DUH

QuoteYou lot go write a book and post it to me if you want me to comment on particular things you've said and i'll review it for you, line by line. I'll write all of it in red ink so it's easily visible and assign you each a unique identifier so you can see who i'm offending where.

uhuh yep. and why would we want to do that?

cause you have displayed so much reason yet to put value into your opinion yes?

QuoteUntil then except that you ain't perfect

"accept" - and english isn't even my mother language!

now who ain't perfect?

Quoteand get over yourselves. theres a prison inside the black iron prison called the fear of having said something wrong and having pride in what you have said.

but inside that prison is the prison of STFU

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:27:19 PM
Tessixy Afore! tooo fast!

what is it with you lot, are you all on some easily offended scholarship?

You lot go write a book and post it to me if you want me to comment on particular things you've said and i'll review it for you, line by line. I'll write all of it in red ink so it's easily visible and assign you each a unique identifier so you can see who i'm offending where.

Until then except that you ain't perfect and get over yourselves. theres a prison inside the black iron prison called the fear of having said something wrong and having pride in what you have said.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Laz, you're confusing an eagerness to get to the bottom of a intellectional conflict with "offence".

We're only taking offence to you claiming "dogma", and then not backing it up.



'Round these parts, a person has an idea, we all kick it around for a while, and see how it stands up.

And, we know we're not perfect.  We're just looking for a person to say how.  

Are you that person?  So far, it doesn't seem so.  All you can do is hurl conclusions without proof, and then hide behind "gee, you guys sure post a lot."

lol :0)

why is dogma such a touchy word on this site?

Because you are claiming something that we don't believe we are engaging in.  And you are not backing your claim up with evidence.  It would be like me suggesting I know you are killing all of the neighborhood cats without offering the pictures. 

Ok, that's not fair.


We ALL know he's killing the neighborhood cats.  That's not even a debate.

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 04:40:19 PM
Ok, that's not fair.


We ALL know he's killing the neighborhood cats.  That's not even a debate.

that's Catma, right?

so? what's it to you, really?
Do you really expect me to trawl back over the threads and pull out inconsistencies?

And if you could keep it quiet about the cats ;0)

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:41:45 PM
so? what's it to you, really?
Do you really expect me to trawl back over the threads and pull out inconsistencies?

And if you could keep it quiet about the cats ;0)

if you live in a world where people can make you do unnecessary and self-destructive things, it is bad

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 04:41:45 PM
so? what's it to you, really?
Do you really expect me to trawl back over the threads and pull out inconsistencies?

Actually, yes.


That's what we do.

Otherwise, you're tacitly inviting us to ignore any idea you might have, and open yourself up to mockery.

It's a simple matter of the fundamentals of debate and discussion.  Debate and discussion is awfully frustrating when one side makes assertions without evidence.  

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 04:26:37 PM

Quote from: SillyCybin on December 20, 2006, 04:22:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 04:21:37 PM

Quotenot the gospels, but "gospel". As in it is holy and divine!

No one said that, either.


Where do you come up with all this shit, anyway?

My brain tells me - I jus write it down.

Actually silly-- you didn't say that.

DOH! Thread moving too fast, can't keep up  :oops:

QuoteActually, yes.

QuoteIt's a simple matter of the fundamentals of debate and discussion.  Debate and discussion is awfully frustrating when one side makes assertions without evidence. 

Okay if those are the rules, then i promise that i will abide by them. It won't be quick though. Would you like me to IM each of you individually or post so that everyone can see?

It's a group discussion, you might as well post to the board.


And don't worry about a time limit.  Usually, when I'm fighting 1 on 15 (it happens more often than you think), it usually takes me a day or so to complete all the separate thoughts that come up.  We're (usually) content to let the issue lie until you're comfortable enough in your answers/question/comments.


And to call them rules are kind of disingenuous.  It's mainly what we're requesting so the conversation can progress.

Laz if a thread dies before you could post your response
you could always bump it

many threads have died many deaths just to be revived again

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on December 20, 2006, 05:39:50 PM
Laz if a thread dies before you could post your response
you could always bump it

many threads have died many deaths just to be revived again

That would be Return of the Living Thread?

Ugh, you just murdered the funnay. 

Quote from: SillyCybin on December 20, 2006, 05:42:25 PMThat would be Return of the Living Thread?

groan.


(good one)

Quote from: triple zero on December 20, 2006, 05:49:10 PM

Quote from: SillyCybin on December 20, 2006, 05:42:25 PMThat would be Return of the Living Thread?

groan.


(good one)

(not)

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 05:49:49 PM

Quote from: triple zero on December 20, 2006, 05:49:10 PM

Quote from: SillyCybin on December 20, 2006, 05:42:25 PMThat would be Return of the Living Thread?

groan.


(good one)

(not)

(nuh-uhuh)

You know, Laz, you seem to have a fundamentally skewed understanding of what we are doing here. Some of us call these things 'builds' for a reason; its because one of us shoots off an idea, and we all add to it or not. And once we have our initial responces, usually someone says "but what about so-and-so?" and maybe an all new line of subdiscussion start among the main one. And there are arguements here and there, sometimes alot, sometimes none. Sometimes a person starts a thread, and it won't be till months later that anyone replies to it, and then the build starts. Same think happened with old dead threads that some dude or dudette digs up and finds interesting. And we keep on going.

And SOMETIMES, something really REALLY interesting happens. We get one of those legendary threads like Birth of the Lie (RIP) where it increases our mutual understandings of each other and the things that keep us from seeing and being reality as it really is and as how we want to realize it, things like the BIP, the Machine, the System. The reason we keep coming back is because we get so much outta it. And it kinda becomes something important for us. So when some newbie walks in and does the same thing that so many newbies before have done, and since we're old farts on this site, it got a little old a ways back, so react much the same way we did to you just here.

Cause, truthfully, we really don't mind newbies joining in. You just have to keep in mind, that we've been doing this and keeping this up for a while now, and we move fast yo.

Anyone that directs you to the search button, or the archives, is doing it in your best interest.

Just sayin'.

Thanks, BMW.

We should sticky that somewhere.

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 07:12:07 PM
Thanks, BMW.

We should sticky that somewhere.

Course if you did that then we wouldn't get to see the noobs making an arse of themselves.

Trust me, it gets boring after a while.

amen.  especially when you have a good flow of discussion going, and then all of a sudden you have to start 'splaining what you're all about.

Rule of Thumb:

Lurk before you Leap. 

Trust me this aint just a PD phenomenon. I been on countless boards and it's always the same. Only variable is the quality of noob. This one has lasted 8 pages. You gotta tip your hat to that. I never get bored with it. And cudos to "Lurk before you leap" never ceases to amaze me how many see to miss such an obvious thing.

SSOOKN backtracking in this thread.

I believe that L Ron Hubbard was in the OTO with Jack Parsons. However, the lodges in California got raided (as did ones in London & Germany if I'm not mistaken) and Hubbard then made up some bullshit about being an intelligence agent gathering info on Crowley to distance himself from the fall out.

I don't even think that Crowley & Hubbard ever met and while I'm too lazy to go and get my copy of 'Perdurabo' (the really good bio that is stupidly out of print), I think there was a letter in which Crowley was getting annoyed at people like Hubbard. He seemed to think that he was a doofus.

ok...carry on...sorry for the interuption.
So while Crowley certainly had his faults, being close to L Ron Hubbard definitely wasn't one of them.

If you find some free time, I'd love hear more about that.

if we live in a black iron prison, is this thread a foodfight in the cafeteria?

where are the guards?

the key is not a key, the lock is not a lock, and the security guards are not security guards?

i am all hodge and no podge today.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 20, 2006, 08:50:23 PM
the key is not a key, the lock is not a lock, and the security guards are not security guards?

Yeah, pretty much.

MTV is still MTV tho right?

no!

mtv is now vh1.

vh1 is Lifetime

and lifetime.. fuck it.

you know - there is a reason why The Black Iron Prison had its name changed to The Discordian Network...

Quote from: LHX on December 20, 2006, 09:00:03 PM
you know - there is a reason why The Black Iron Prison had its name changed to The Discordian Network...

But apparently there no reason for the server center not setting us up the backup files.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 20, 2006, 08:50:23 PM
the key is not a key, the lock is not a lock, and the security guards are not security guards?

(http://plif.andkon.com/archive/wc212.gif)

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on December 20, 2006, 10:15:57 PM

Quote from: LHX on December 20, 2006, 09:00:03 PM
you know - there is a reason why The Black Iron Prison had its name changed to The Discordian Network...

But apparently there no reason for the server center not setting us up the backup files.

Actually, I've just recently been informed that if I want to pony up the dough to have the files restored/saved/whatever, that they'll send me a back-up.  I'm going to get a price quote and as long as it isn't too cost prohibitive I'll do it.  But, obviously, I will not restore the forum.  If I get it I'll post stuff to this sub-forum. 

do-never deal with attheforums. 

Or, always make a backup.

that's why you don't deal with attheforums.  They don't let you make back-ups.  Or at least, when you contact them to ask for a back-up, they don't write you back. 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 21, 2006, 03:42:30 PM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on December 20, 2006, 10:15:57 PM

Quote from: LHX on December 20, 2006, 09:00:03 PM
you know - there is a reason why The Black Iron Prison had its name changed to The Discordian Network...

But apparently there no reason for the server center not setting us up the backup files.

Actually, I've just recently been informed that if I want to pony up the dough to have the files restored/saved/whatever, that they'll send me a back-up.  I'm going to get a price quote and as long as it isn't too cost prohibitive I'll do it.  But, obviously, I will not restore the forum.  If I get it I'll post stuff to this sub-forum. 

do-never deal with attheforums. 

those fuckers

thats a little too convenient for my head to let it just slip by

They wouldn't even respond to my questions for general help on running the damn thing.  I had to rely on Bella and Daniel for pointers.  (Which I greatly appreciated in case either are watching!)  :-D

It would be an awful shame if I didn't get a timely response for them and I, say, posted their e-mail address and a bunch of angry BIPers flooded them with e-mails demanding the release of their intellectual property.   :-D

That would be terrible.

heaven forbid their baby gets shook

Apparently there's some way to dump forums offsite, without relying on the hosts. I'll ask my mate when I see him tomorrow night if that's any use to ya. Sourceball forums were a hacked version of phpbb but I'd expect smf should have the same feature.

Well, at this point it's kind of too late.  I, myself, don't plan on resurrecting the place.  Plus, I think things are working fine right here.  I just would like to get people's material back. 

Might be worth considering for this place tho.

troof. 

Quote from: LMNO on December 20, 2006, 08:34:16 PM
If you find some free time, I'd love hear more about that.

gladly. i've got a little more free time now that i'm done with exam stuff.

if you can get hold of 'Perdurabo' by Richard Kaczynski, you'll be a very happy little kabbalist indeed.

sorry to bump in the BIP
but bumped for Laz for use on his website
:lol:

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 03:15:31 PM
The site is a journey, i'm at the leading edge of that journey, not at the beginning. Soon the BIP will be entered on the site as my newest discovery :0)

and his promise has been fulfilled

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 18, 2007, 04:04:17 AM
sorry to bump in the BIP
but bumped for Laz for use on his website
:lol:

it's ok to bump for BIP. just make sure you don't beep when you should've bopped.

:-D

Quote from: Laz on December 20, 2006, 09:33:50 AM
The more i read on this site, the more controllingand anti-discordian the posts seem to be.

Shut the fuck up.

Jackass.

What the hell did he think chaos was about, fucking pastries and dandelions?

Stupid hippy.

you know i kind of hope he does come back
i read almost all his website now
some of it is interesting, and he has some readable ideas
most of it is him thinking he's smarter then he is, which we all have phases like that
would like to hear him and cain debate his free mason conspiracy ideas
:lol:

Maybe he has potential, since he does seem interested in ideas-  but he still has no sense of humility or comprehension or respect.  Without that, he's hopeless.

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 22, 2007, 04:34:23 AM
you know i kind of hope he does come back
i read almost all his website now
some of it is interesting, and he has some readable ideas
most of it is him thinking he's smarter then he is, which we all have phases like that
would like to hear him and cain debate his free mason conspiracy ideas
:lol:

probably more entertainment than i can handle  8-)

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 22, 2007, 04:34:23 AM
you know i kind of hope he does come back
i read almost all his website now
some of it is interesting, and he has some readable ideas
most of it is him thinking he's smarter then he is, which we all have phases like that
would like to hear him and cain debate his free mason conspiracy ideas
:lol:

This asshole has inspired me to start SHUT UP, the online journal of Rogerology.

I would like a subscription to your publication.

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:01:34 AM
I would like a subscription to your publication.

Well, hang on a minute.  Or a couple of days.

I gotta figure out how to make the demons in my computer make me a webpage.

Get a blog.  You know you want to.

better yet
get a myspace account
you really know you want to

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 22, 2007, 05:06:25 AM
better yet
get a myspace account
you really know you want to

You'll die for that.

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 22, 2007, 05:06:25 AM
better yet
get a myspace account
you really know you want to

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:05:49 AM
Get a blog.  You know you want to.

Probably.  

WHO I HATED TODAY.

Sounds like a plan to me.  Thats what most blogs are anyway, at least in the UK.

Guido: I HATE LABOUR, SO I WILL MAKE UP GOSSIPY RUMOURS ABOUT THEM!!!
Unity: I HATE TORIES, SO I WILL MAKE FUNNY PICTURES ABUSING THEM!
Melanie Phillips: I HATE THE SECULAR MODERN WORLD SO I WILL MAKE UP SHIT WHILE EATING HEATHEN DARKIES!

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 22, 2007, 05:02:30 AM

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:01:34 AM
I would like a subscription to your publication.

Well, hang on a minute. Or a couple of days.

I gotta figure out how to make the demons in my computer make me a webpage.

I'm learning html as we speak.  I know some pretty basic stuff, I could put text and pics onto a screen, if that's all you need.  And you wouldn't be supporting the blogs or Rupert Murdock's myspace.

Blogger.com
Typepad.
Wordpress.

Just three I would suggest.

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:10:35 AM
Sounds like a plan to me.  Thats what most blogs are anyway, at least in the UK.

Guido: I HATE LABOUR, SO I WILL MAKE UP GOSSIPY RUMOURS ABOUT THEM!!!
Unity: I HATE TORIES, SO I WILL MAKE FUNNY PICTURES ABUSING THEM!
Melanie Phillips: I HATE THE SECULAR MODERN WORLD SO I WILL MAKE UP SHIT WHILE EATING HEATHEN DARKIES!

Yeah, well, I hate everyone, so I'm gonna tell the TRUTH about them.

TGRR,
Has no time for petty, lesser hatreds.

This will be good....I was saying the other day on my virtually unread blog (except by Hoopla) that we need more bloggers.  Because the bandwagon is not yet full enough, and blogs are becoming the new forums or something.

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:18:07 AM
This will be good....I was saying the other day on my virtually unread blog (except by Hoopla) that we need more bloggers.  Because the bandwagon is not yet full enough, and blogs are becoming the new forums or something.

Link or they don't exist.

To mine and Hoopla's blogs?

What?  When was this?  

I like this fora format.

Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 22, 2007, 05:19:56 AM
What?  When was this? 

I like this fora format.

Thats apparently whats happening.  The blogging community is supposedly where all the debate happens nowadays, because of experts and politicians and journalists and everyone having one.

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:21:12 AM

Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 22, 2007, 05:19:56 AM
What?  When was this? 

I like this fora format.

Thats apparently whats happening.  The blogging community is supposedly where all the debate happens nowadays, because of experts and politicians and journalists and everyone having one.

Piss on the "experts".  The only reason I'd go to some "experts" blog is to poomp in his comments section.

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:19:31 AM
To mine and Hoopla's blogs?

Yeah.

TGRR,
Hopes you aren't "experts". :lol:

With any luck, everyone here is an expert.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 22, 2007, 05:22:16 AM

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 05:19:31 AM
To mine and Hoopla's blogs?

Yeah.

TGRR,
Hopes you aren't "experts". :lol:

Fuck no.  I rip funny shit I find from elsewhere and Hoopla writes Discordian stuff.

http://baronvonhoopla.blogspot.com/
http://episkoposcain.blogspot.com/

Anyway, you can also put all your rants up on it too.

http://felixlwmbc.blogspot.com/

It's a beginning.

Boomarked.  I'll add it to my sidebar when my brain isn't so fried that I'll crap up the HTML.

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 06:05:26 AM
Boomarked.  I'll add it to my sidebar when my brain isn't so fried that I'll crap up the HTML.

Mine will be up by the end of the week.

Excellent.  And of course, it too will be added to the sidebar.  In fact, I need to update my links.

Maybe I'll repost some old stuff there, but it might be better just to start fresh.

Yeah, thats what I did.  I added a couple of things in, but not much.

Crap.

Is Laz still around? 

I haven't seen a n00b stmoped like that since Eric.

I miss all the fun.

No, he ran off and wrote nasty, nasty things about us.

Rather, ignorant and misleading things that are offensive by dint of disrespect for our message.

To be honest, I haven't even read it.  Anyone care to give me a breakdown and critique?  Sending one in may force him to put it on the page, or at least get a rise out of him.

He essentially denounces BIP as a place you go to mope and be sad.

And he can apparently read, right?

Reading =/= comprehension.

As Laz so perfectly proves.

Sorry, I'm in no logical mood tonight.  I'm trolling elsewhere and its spilling over.

Laz is sort of like Mal-3 but easier to hate. Don't worry about the illogicality thing.

Well, normally I like to attempt some sort of systemic criticism, but tonight is the Night of the Troll.  My fans/stalkers/obsessive blood enemies need me.

Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 24, 2007, 10:24:36 PMHe essentially denounces BIP as a place you go to mope and be sad.

HE CALLED US EMO KIDS????

I read what he wrote about BIP, and that isn't exactly what he said . . . he stated that the philosophy was "unenlightened" because it admits defeat, so you stop trying. 

I think the BIP concept worked effectively as a Rorschach test in this case, since it gave us such valuable insight into his mind.

True. I drew the opposite conclusions.  Because Laz is a pussy defeatist.

I also wonder

a) how many times he actually read the pamphelt

and

b) if he was actually reading it or skimming it. 

Cause I've read it and re-read it as people have commented on it.  I don't see the defeatist aspect in there at all.  Sure, it's not sunshine and lollipops but it's not advocating sticking your head in the oven either. 

Laz is suffering from an overly Christian viewpoint of existence, IMO.  Because a clear and definite conclusion cannot be drawn, and there is no clear concept of salvation or punishment (the BIP may seem like punishment, but its just a fact of existence which can be fought against)l, it makes him feel uneasy. 

Actually, I had a similar response whey i was posting BIP material at MW.  There was an opinion that it was overly pessimistic because we could never break free, and we called it a "prison".

I eventually won some of them over, though.

Christian theology is alive and well, even though the faith itself may be suffering.

It is hard to discuss these thing with folks who have a deathgrip perception of words and their meanings and connotations.  People should read more poetry. 

People should read more philosophy.  Most useful tool I've found in discovering underlying assumptions about how the world works.

This is also true. 

Nothing is true, etc etc.



::waits for Cain to correct the Sabbah quote::

FORBIDDEN DAMNIT!

BINGO!

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 25, 2007, 02:09:58 PM
This is also a good reccomendation.

self-fixation

Quote from: LMNO on January 25, 2007, 01:59:08 PM
Actually, I had a similar response whey i was posting BIP material at MW. There was an opinion that it was overly pessimistic because we could never break free, and we called it a "prison".

I eventually won some of them over, though.

I think it's the terminology.  People don't want to be told they are imprisoned within their own minds.  They want to be told they are free-thinking, free-willing individuals.

It's not until they have dug into the BIP and gotten it under their fingernails that they understand what the terms truly mean.

The average stranger will react well to being told that he thinks, but not nearly as well when you actually do make him think.

Quote from: Jenne on January 25, 2007, 05:59:49 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 25, 2007, 01:59:08 PM
Actually, I had a similar response whey i was posting BIP material at MW. There was an opinion that it was overly pessimistic because we could never break free, and we called it a "prison".

I eventually won some of them over, though.

I think it's the terminology.  People don't want to be told they are imprisoned within their own minds.  They want to be told they are free-thinking, free-willing individuals.

It's not until they have dug into the BIP and gotten it under their fingernails that they understand what the terms truly mean.

You just made me think of that mad song (pwei? art of noise?) something about "happy birthday dad I'm in jail. And I like it here"

just googled it - no joy - anyone remember?

Rings a bell, Silly...but it doesn't reappear in my memory banks, sorry.  :(

Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 25, 2007, 06:07:31 PM
The average stranger will react well to being told that he thinks, but not nearly as well when you actually do make him think.

Exactly.  I think that's Laz's problem right there.

Quote from: SillyCybin on January 25, 2007, 06:09:29 PM

Quote from: Jenne on January 25, 2007, 05:59:49 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 25, 2007, 01:59:08 PM
Actually, I had a similar response whey i was posting BIP material at MW. There was an opinion that it was overly pessimistic because we could never break free, and we called it a "prison".

I eventually won some of them over, though.

I think it's the terminology.  People don't want to be told they are imprisoned within their own minds.  They want to be told they are free-thinking, free-willing individuals.

It's not until they have dug into the BIP and gotten it under their fingernails that they understand what the terms truly mean.

You just made me think of that mad song (pwei? art of noise?) something about "happy birthday dad I'm in jail. And I like it here"

just googled it - no joy - anyone remember?

The band's called "Was (Not Was)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Was_(Not_Was)

Hooray, wikipedia.

Ha!  There you go...I think that's in the playlist at the 94.9FM station here, if I'm not mistaken.  They play obscure stuff a lot by request.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 22, 2007, 06:08:46 AM

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2007, 06:05:26 AM
Boomarked.  I'll add it to my sidebar when my brain isn't so fried that I'll crap up the HTML.

Mine will be up by the end of the week.

I just put up a blog on blogspot to eventually act as capital to my blog empire
http://thornis.blogspot.com/
theres nothing good on it yet as i just started it up, just a few links
if i havent linked to your blog PM me the address or post whatever and ill put it up

Quote from: LMNO on January 25, 2007, 07:23:31 PM

Quote from: SillyCybin on January 25, 2007, 06:09:29 PM

Quote from: Jenne on January 25, 2007, 05:59:49 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 25, 2007, 01:59:08 PM
Actually, I had a similar response whey i was posting BIP material at MW. There was an opinion that it was overly pessimistic because we could never break free, and we called it a "prison".

I eventually won some of them over, though.

I think it's the terminology.  People don't want to be told they are imprisoned within their own minds.  They want to be told they are free-thinking, free-willing individuals.

It's not until they have dug into the BIP and gotten it under their fingernails that they understand what the terms truly mean.

You just made me think of that mad song (pwei? art of noise?) something about "happy birthday dad I'm in jail. And I like it here"

just googled it - no joy - anyone remember?

The band's called "Was (Not Was)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Was_(Not_Was)

Hooray, wikipedia.

Wasn't that the same band that did that song "Walk the Dinosaur?"

You got it.

you have to open the door and get on the floor first...but yes.

its funny that the dude tried to criticize whats going on here regarding new people coming into the mix

because as i take a look around, there is at least a half dozen people who have jumped in and thrown some nice material and feedback over the last little while


i never understood fully what the Bhode thing was about, but it seems like the number of people jumping in is outweighing the people who come here and start throwing rocks


theres been a lot of n00bs come in over the last few months

things is lookin good






or at least mediocre


better than bad




but then again, we are all unenlightened and depressed anyway

LHX has a point.  I think Bhode and Laz have been the exception lately, not the rule. 

so the question is:

whats the difference between the n00bs that stick around and the n00bs that start in on the hating?

4 inches of penis?

I hope someone has an extra pair of drumsticks.

Seriously though, I sometimes get the feeling that those who come and try to stir-up trouble probably had already decided that when they came here they were going to try and stir-up trouble.  I think anyone who comes here to truly learn and get into the discourse are going to be more open minded and willing to absorb new ideas.

i think some people have a tough time shaking the messiah complex

That, and sometimes personalities just CLASH.  That has to be allowed for.  So does being able to get back in once you've been shoved aside or shove yourself aside.

I don't see this crowd NOT doing that if there's a good reason for it. Or a good case is made for it.

Even people who fuck up and say the wrong things can teach you something.

I found this place 3 months ago so i'm pretty n00bish.

One big thing IMO is some of these people hate when their cool new ideas are not viewed by other with the same enthusiasm they have. Bhode took to heart that everyone thought he was a dipshit and ran off. It just seems they lack a certain civility as well. Instead of taking thing as respectful disagreement, they take it like a personal attack on their character.
I stayed because this is a pretty unique place, as far the thought talent goes. Most people that argue 'till they're blue in the face, then huff off might not be accustomed to actual individuality.
"It's a Discordian forum, they must all be bobbies like me." Once their illusion is shattered they cry and return to the furry forums (or wherever).

This place is awesome if you bury your ego for a sec and just chill.

Also once Roger locks on, you can't shake him.
Stay off the tagline for fucks sake.

He eventually settles down.

But he never forgets.


I was on his shitlist for a while.  And then there's Enrico...

I think you nailed it Hunter.  I know in the beginning I took some lumps from TGRR,LMNO and others who had been around for awhile.    But, if I hadn't I'd still be a silly 23pinealer.  

Crap, I forgot about that.

I still take lumps, but that's fine.  Builds the "ignore and move on" muscle.

Go back and read some of Bhode's posts. (Masochists only)
He is soooo sure of himself and his "rock solid worldview".
No growth.
No evolution of thought.
Cold unchanging rock.     Yawn.

Be like water, my friend.

Bruce Lee - His philosophies make me forget he was even a martial artist sometimes.

Eh, I lived through it...I think it's a good lesson to be learned for those coming after him, but you're right...the rest is a bit of a yawn.

And Mr. Laz...he's a real rum one...instead of confronting the BIP folks, he just posts lame shit and moves on.  No equal time for HIM!

I liked Hangero.
Where'd he go?
He could spit some fire.
Quick mind on that one.

Yeah, Laz is a unique animal unto himself.  Jesus Christ I don't want to bring the MW crowd into this, but there is a situation where "Discordianism" and "BIP" has been panned, mischaracterized, etc., etc., but at least there is SOME avenue for discussion about the misconceptions, misunderstandings, whatever.  Mr. Laz has retreated into his castle and raised the drawbridge.  Anyone have a trebuchet?

Personally I think he was just looking for people that thought like him
combination of being socially accepted and belonging to a movement
and when it wasnt here he moved on
Hes probably somewhere else right now
completely forgot about us
no matter how much shit we raise

:lol:  Or a set of orc soldiers on hand?

I think that's what sticks in MY craw.  He was contributing valuatively for some time, then up and left when his preliminary findings were "confirmed."  Instead of sticking around to find out if he was right, he just goes and "reviews" the area and leaves it for his audience.

No invitation, either, to the rest of us to see what he was up to.

Cowardly.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 26, 2007, 07:24:12 PM
Yeah, Laz is a unique animal unto himself.  Jesus Christ I don't want to bring the MW crowd into this, but there is a situation where "Discordianism" and "BIP" has been panned, mischaracterized, etc., etc., but at least there is SOME avenue for discussion about the misconceptions, misunderstandings, whatever.  Mr. Laz has retreated into his castle and raised the drawbridge. Anyone have a trebuchet?

that's ECH's dept.

I'm not gone, just took a minivacation coupled with a drastic scaling back of preaching opinions that have *apparently* all been covered before.  Now I only chime in when I think I have something relevant to share. 

The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

As far as my "Rock solid worldview" is concerned, I was really enthusiastic about a particular perception of the past, but, beyond the initial shock of adjustment, I have been actively pursuing further knowledge.  I realize I don't know everything, but I don't think I'll ever give up trying.  I think most of the arguments against Anarcho-primitivism rely on certain "Shared assumptions" that I don't entirely share, but when people made sense to me (like Hangero and Vexaph0d) there was constructive compromise.

I don't think EVERYONE thought poorly of me, but Rodger's opinions and judgments of me were accepted de facto by enough people to make me want to take it easy for a while, let things cool off, and maybe start posting again when I have a better feel for the audience.  What was truly amusing was how many people piled on, in addition to how peer-pressure effected those who commented on my behalf. 

I don't know if there is anything short of boredom that could make me stop reading the forum.

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
I'm not gone, just took a minivacation coupled with a drastic scaling back of preaching opinions that have *apparently* all been covered before.  Now I only chime in when I think I have something relevant to share. 

The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

As far as my "Rock solid worldview" is concerned, I was really enthusiastic about a particular perception of the past, but, beyond the initial shock of adjustment, I have been actively pursuing further knowledge.  I realize I don't know everything, but I don't think I'll ever give up trying.  I think most of the arguments against Anarcho-primitivism rely on certain "Shared assumptions" that I don't entirely share, but when people made sense to me (like Hangero and Vexaph0d) there was constructive compromise.

I don't think EVERYONE thought poorly of me, but Rodger's opinions and judgments of me were accepted de facto by enough people to make me want to take it easy for a while, let things cool off, and maybe start posting again when I have a better feel for the audience.  What was truly amusing was how many people piled on, in addition to how peer-pressure effected those who commented on my behalf. 

I don't know if there is anything short of boredom that could make me stop reading the forum.

The greatest problems with anarcho-primitivism that I can be objective about are:

1) Lost knowlege: Humans, in general, have lost the cultural knowlege of living without modern technology, the uses of natural biological materials, hunting, gathering, farming (in a non-modern sense), tool making, shelter building, etc.

2) Changed environ: even if we somehow learn that information, we can't really apply it today because the modern human has so altered the landscape and the ecology as the diversity and abundance of ecological systems and biological species which this knowlege relied upon are greatly reduced.

3) Human Population: The human population is too large on this planet to sustain such an amount of people. One of the primary reasons that we can "sustain" (quotations because I personally do not believe that current population sizes and growth rates are sustainable over time) the populations of this planet are genetically engineered species of corn and wheat, technology which would not be available in an a primitivist society. And there is certainly not enough gatherable and huntable food available on this planet for 6 + billion people.

4) Primitive societies were HIGHLY structured, with family lineages and chieftomships and tribal feuds and war parties. They were humans, and just like any other humans they were not these "eden-like" peoples that so many seem to think. Yes, their relationship was closer to ecology than the rest of us, but they still fucked things up, had wars, raped, pillaged, plundered, and lived like humans, generally.

So, there are some points. Feel free to argue them if you wish, but this is why I believe that anarcho-primitivism is a impossibility.

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
I'm not gone, just took a minivacation coupled with a drastic scaling back of preaching opinions that have *apparently* all been covered before.  Now I only chime in when I think I have something relevant to share. 

The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

As far as my "Rock solid worldview" is concerned, I was really enthusiastic about a particular perception of the past, but, beyond the initial shock of adjustment, I have been actively pursuing further knowledge.  I realize I don't know everything, but I don't think I'll ever give up trying.  I think most of the arguments against Anarcho-primitivism rely on certain "Shared assumptions" that I don't entirely share, but when people made sense to me (like Hangero and Vexaph0d) there was constructive compromise.

I don't think EVERYONE thought poorly of me, but Rodger's opinions and judgments of me were accepted de facto by enough people to make me want to take it easy for a while, let things cool off, and maybe start posting again when I have a better feel for the audience.  What was truly amusing was how many people piled on, in addition to how peer-pressure effected those who commented on my behalf. 

I don't know if there is anything short of boredom that could make me stop reading the forum.

thats respectable

kinda makes the other dude stick out even more

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 03:26:37 AM
The greatest problems with anarcho-primitivism that I can be objective about are:

1) Lost knowlege: Humans, in general, have lost the cultural knowlege of living without modern technology, the uses of natural biological materials, hunting, gathering, farming (in a non-modern sense), tool making, shelter building, etc.

2) Changed environ: even if we somehow learn that information, we can't really apply it today because the modern human has so altered the landscape and the ecology as the diversity and abundance of ecological systems and biological species which this knowlege relied upon are greatly reduced.

3) Human Population: The human population is too large on this planet to sustain such an amount of people. One of the primary reasons that we can "sustain" (quotations because I personally do not believe that current population sizes and growth rates are sustainable over time) the populations of this planet are genetically engineered species of corn and wheat, technology which would not be available in an a primitivist society. And there is certainly not enough gatherable and huntable food available on this planet for 6 + billion people.

4) Primitive societies were HIGHLY structured, with family lineages and chieftomships and tribal feuds and war parties. They were humans, and just like any other humans they were not these "eden-like" peoples that so many seem to think. Yes, their relationship was closer to ecology than the rest of us, but they still fucked things up, had wars, raped, pillaged, plundered, and lived like humans, generally.

So, there are some points. Feel free to argue them if you wish, but this is why I believe that anarcho-primitivism is a impossibility.

I like those points, and wish I had heard them sooner, but in response:

1.  Yes, generally we have, but there are groups of people the world over who do know how to survive off of what the local ecology can provide.  In fact, in the interest of broadening my education on tribalism, I've seen a few programs on the travel channel that had westerners living with and learning from a tribe in New Guinea, as well as shows on other tribe's survival practices from the Amazon.  There are also people who are nature survivalists who get dropped in the middle of no-where and travel to a pre-determined pickup location.  Survival in nature may be beyond the abilities of the vast majority of the population, but it's nowhere near impossible on an individual/familial basis.

2.  This one I agree with almost totally, and it goes along with number three to a certain extent as in the elimination of the herds of Buffalo, the destruction of vast swathes of forests to make room for the farms we have today.

3.  You're right, there is not enough huntable/gatherable foodstuffs to sustain our current population.  Technology has given us the ability to genetically alter crops, but time allowed the same thing as the domestication of certain plants followed a pattern of natural selection that reinforced traits useful to humans.  We just cut out the interim generational mutation necessary to get there.

4.  Being more environmentally acceptable is the point.  I think the systems of raiding and raping eliminated the weak and propagated those genes better suited for survival, regardless of the emotional stigmas associated with those behaviors in "Modern" society.  I have no illusions about an "eden-like" existence, but I don't see tribal behaviors as any worse than what goes on in society today.

Just for the record, reading Guns, Germs, and Steel has helped to show me reasons why certain societies have subjugated or eliminated others, and shown me the almost inevitability of a culture like ours coming to dominate a world landscape.  Even were I to wave a magic wand and return the world to groups of hunter/gatherers, eventually it would return to something resembling what we have now. 

I readily admit the impracticality of trying to establish a worldwide return to tribalism, but I think that embracing some of the good things about it (like reducing society's ecological impact and strengthening interpersonal relationships) can provide achievable goals to improve the quality of life most people experience.  It has become a part of my map, but by no means the totality of it. 

Currently I am intrigued by efforts to use technology to reduce the output of CO2 such as can be found here:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/

Hangero pointed out that currently the best thing to do is to pursue scientific answers to the problems we've created for ourselves, and that also made sense to me. 

I don't think I have all the answers, but I do think that more people should include Anarcho-Primitivism in their education, regardless of its problems, simply to expand their knowledge base and help eliminate some of the assumptions they take for granted without even knowing.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 04:56:39 AM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 03:26:37 AM
The greatest problems with anarcho-primitivism that I can be objective about are:

1) Lost knowlege: Humans, in general, have lost the cultural knowlege of living without modern technology, the uses of natural biological materials, hunting, gathering, farming (in a non-modern sense), tool making, shelter building, etc.

2) Changed environ: even if we somehow learn that information, we can't really apply it today because the modern human has so altered the landscape and the ecology as the diversity and abundance of ecological systems and biological species which this knowlege relied upon are greatly reduced.

3) Human Population: The human population is too large on this planet to sustain such an amount of people. One of the primary reasons that we can "sustain" (quotations because I personally do not believe that current population sizes and growth rates are sustainable over time) the populations of this planet are genetically engineered species of corn and wheat, technology which would not be available in an a primitivist society. And there is certainly not enough gatherable and huntable food available on this planet for 6 + billion people.

4) Primitive societies were HIGHLY structured, with family lineages and chieftomships and tribal feuds and war parties. They were humans, and just like any other humans they were not these "eden-like" peoples that so many seem to think. Yes, their relationship was closer to ecology than the rest of us, but they still fucked things up, had wars, raped, pillaged, plundered, and lived like humans, generally.

So, there are some points. Feel free to argue them if you wish, but this is why I believe that anarcho-primitivism is a impossibility.

I like those points, and wish I had heard them sooner, but in response:

1.  Yes, generally we have, but there are groups of people the world over who do know how to survive off of what the local ecology can provide.  In fact, in the interest of broadening my education on tribalism, I've seen a few programs on the travel channel that had westerners living with and learning from a tribe in New Guinea, as well as shows on other tribe's survival practices from the Amazon.  There are also people who are nature survivalists who get dropped in the middle of no-where and travel to a pre-determined pickup location.  Survival in nature may be beyond the abilities of the vast majority of the population, but it's nowhere near impossible on an individual/familial basis.

Two points to this: 1) The groups you are speaking of (which I do know of) are located in remote locations far from where you are living, thus the methods, the knowlege on which they use to survive would be highly different than the methods that would need to be used where you live, and even that has been highly altered. 2) A family group (as I believe it has been said here before) is far too small a population to be sustainable over a long period of time. You need only look to the science of population ecology for that information.

Quote2.  This one I agree with almost totally, and it goes along with number three to a certain extent as in the elimination of the herds of Buffalo, the destruction of vast swathes of forests to make room for the farms we have today.

And because of that altered ecology, the ability to sustain even an individual human in a primitivist manner is depressed.

Quote3.  You're right, there is not enough huntable/gatherable foodstuffs to sustain our current population.  Technology has given us the ability to genetically alter crops, but time allowed the same thing as the domestication of certain plants followed a pattern of natural selection that reinforced traits useful to humans.  We just cut out the interim generational mutation necessary to get there.

Please explain further what you are saying here.

Quote4.  Being more environmentally acceptable is the point.  I think the systems of raiding and raping eliminated the weak and propagated those genes better suited for survival, regardless of the emotional stigmas associated with those behaviors in "Modern" society.  I have no illusions about an "eden-like" existence, but I don't see tribal behaviors as any worse than what goes on in society today.

They are no worse, but they are also no better, and they are certainly not anarchic, which was my point. If you are trying to build an anarchic-primitivist "society", you can't use any tribal organisation as a model.

QuoteJust for the record, reading Guns, Germs, and Steel has helped to show me reasons why certain societies have subjugated or eliminated others, and shown me the almost inevitability of a culture like ours coming to dominate a world landscape.  Even were I to wave a magic wand and return the world to groups of hunter/gatherers, eventually it would return to something resembling what we have now.

Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

QuoteI readily admit the impracticality of trying to establish a worldwide return to tribalism, but I think that embracing some of the good things about it (like reducing society's ecological impact and strengthening interpersonal relationships) can provide achievable goals to improve the quality of life most people experience.  It has become a part of my map, but by no means the totality of it.

What you are forwarding with Anarcho-primitivism is not a return to tribalism, which, as earlier stated, was highly organised, but a completly new system. And I agree, decreasing ecological impact and strenghthening interpersonal relationships are two very important things that people would do well to pay more attention to.

QuoteCurrently I am intrigued by efforts to use technology to reduce the output of CO2 such as can be found here:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/

Hangero pointed out that currently the best thing to do is to pursue scientific answers to the problems we've created for ourselves, and that also made sense to me. 

I don't think I have all the answers, but I do think that more people should include Anarcho-Primitivism in their education, regardless of its problems, simply to expand their knowledge base and help eliminate some of the assumptions they take for granted without even knowing.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

No problem. You seem to be coming to a personal consensus on what you feel needs to be done, and I commend you for that. The reason that people reacted to you badly in the first place was your advocation for massive human death in responce to ecological crisis, a very (to say the least) controversial and (in my opinion) amoral approach to the problem.

That is all for now.

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 04:56:39 AM

I like those points, and wish I had heard them sooner, but in response:

1.  Yes, generally we have, but there are groups of people the world over who do know how to survive off of what the local ecology can provide.  In fact, in the interest of broadening my education on tribalism, I've seen a few programs on the travel channel that had westerners living with and learning from a tribe in New Guinea, as well as shows on other tribe's survival practices from the Amazon.  There are also people who are nature survivalists who get dropped in the middle of no-where and travel to a pre-determined pickup location.  Survival in nature may be beyond the abilities of the vast majority of the population, but it's nowhere near impossible on an individual/familial basis.

Two points to this: 1) The groups you are speaking of (which I do know of) are located in remote locations far from where you are living, thus the methods, the knowlege on which they use to survive would be highly different than the methods that would need to be used where you live, and even that has been highly altered. 2) A family group (as I believe it has been said here before) is far too small a population to be sustainable over a long period of time. You need only look to the science of population ecology for that information.

Yup.  But, were some sort of cataclysm to happen, people would figure out a way to survive, or die, leaving only those people who already had some knowledge of plants/animals, those who could figure it out, and those that could establish dominance over other survivors with resources.  Pretty much "good luck" but if individuals pursue whatever wilderness lore is appropriate for their usual surroundings they could improve their chances.

Quote

Quote2.  This one I agree with almost totally, and it goes along with number three to a certain extent as in the elimination of the herds of Buffalo, the destruction of vast swathes of forests to make room for the farms we have today.

And because of that altered ecology, the ability to sustain even an individual human in a primitivist manner is depressed.

Which is why we need to stop further predation upon natural resources.

Quote

Quote3.  You're right, there is not enough huntable/gatherable foodstuffs to sustain our current population.  Technology has given us the ability to genetically alter crops, but time allowed the same thing as the domestication of certain plants followed a pattern of natural selection that reinforced traits useful to humans.  We just cut out the interim generational mutation necessary to get there.

Please explain further what you are saying here.

We've genetically engineered plants that produce larger yields, resistance to diseases and other things.  Given enough time, every sedentary group that developed any amount of agriculture would also have bred their crops for larger yields, and the ones more resistant to diseases would survive.  It may have taken a lot longer but differences in size of domesticated vs wild plants are well documented.  I'm just saying, genetic manipulation allows a quick path to more options, but over time, it would have happened anyway.

Quote

Quote4.  Being more environmentally acceptable is the point.  I think the systems of raiding and raping eliminated the weak and propagated those genes better suited for survival, regardless of the emotional stigmas associated with those behaviors in "Modern" society.  I have no illusions about an "eden-like" existence, but I don't see tribal behaviors as any worse than what goes on in society today.

They are no worse, but they are also no better, and they are certainly not anarchic, which was my point. If you are trying to build an anarchic-primitivist "society", you can't use any tribal organisation as a model.

Okay, I get you.  I need to stop qualifying my position as Anarcho-Primitivist until I do more research than two books and some TV shows. 

Quote

QuoteJust for the record, reading Guns, Germs, and Steel has helped to show me reasons why certain societies have subjugated or eliminated others, and shown me the almost inevitability of a culture like ours coming to dominate a world landscape.  Even were I to wave a magic wand and return the world to groups of hunter/gatherers, eventually it would return to something resembling what we have now.

Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

ditto

Quote

QuoteI readily admit the impracticality of trying to establish a worldwide return to tribalism, but I think that embracing some of the good things about it (like reducing society's ecological impact and strengthening interpersonal relationships) can provide achievable goals to improve the quality of life most people experience.  It has become a part of my map, but by no means the totality of it.

What you are forwarding with Anarcho-primitivism is not a return to tribalism, which, as earlier stated, was highly organised, but a completly new system. And I agree, decreasing ecological impact and strenghthening interpersonal relationships are two very important things that people would do well to pay more attention to.

QuoteCurrently I am intrigued by efforts to use technology to reduce the output of CO2 such as can be found here:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/

Hangero pointed out that currently the best thing to do is to pursue scientific answers to the problems we've created for ourselves, and that also made sense to me. 

I don't think I have all the answers, but I do think that more people should include Anarcho-Primitivism in their education, regardless of its problems, simply to expand their knowledge base and help eliminate some of the assumptions they take for granted without even knowing.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

No problem. You seem to be coming to a personal consensus on what you feel needs to be done, and I commend you for that. The reason that people reacted to you badly in the first place was your advocation for massive human death in responce to ecological crisis, a very (to say the least) controversial and (in my opinion) amoral approach to the problem.

That is all for now.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion. 

Sorry it took so long to reply, I'm playing poker at the same time, and formulating responses takes my attention away from the game, so it takes a while.

All I have left to note is that you feel there needs to be catyclism for your primitivist society to occur. And that sounds suspiciously like the "human holocaust for ecological problems" that you stated before.

And another note, I guess. The reason we are having this intelligent disscussion is because you are trying to be more intelligent about the issue. I told you more than once that when you wanted to talk about real enviromental ethics (and not something as childish as global cataclysm to solve all our problems) then you should come tall to me.

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM
Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

Thought that was Jared Diamond.

Sweet Caroline, BA DA DA!  Your nerve gas never looked so good...:lol:

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 07:55:51 AM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 04:56:39 AM

I like those points, and wish I had heard them sooner, but in response:

1.  Yes, generally we have, but there are groups of people the world over who do know how to survive off of what the local ecology can provide.  In fact, in the interest of broadening my education on tribalism, I've seen a few programs on the travel channel that had westerners living with and learning from a tribe in New Guinea, as well as shows on other tribe's survival practices from the Amazon.  There are also people who are nature survivalists who get dropped in the middle of no-where and travel to a pre-determined pickup location.  Survival in nature may be beyond the abilities of the vast majority of the population, but it's nowhere near impossible on an individual/familial basis.

Two points to this: 1) The groups you are speaking of (which I do know of) are located in remote locations far from where you are living, thus the methods, the knowlege on which they use to survive would be highly different than the methods that would need to be used where you live, and even that has been highly altered. 2) A family group (as I believe it has been said here before) is far too small a population to be sustainable over a long period of time. You need only look to the science of population ecology for that information.

Yup.  But, were some sort of cataclysm to happen, people would figure out a way to survive, or die, leaving only those people who already had some knowledge of plants/animals, those who could figure it out, and those that could establish dominance over other survivors with resources.  Pretty much "good luck" but if individuals pursue whatever wilderness lore is appropriate for their usual surroundings they could improve their chances.

Quote

Quote2.  This one I agree with almost totally, and it goes along with number three to a certain extent as in the elimination of the herds of Buffalo, the destruction of vast swathes of forests to make room for the farms we have today.

And because of that altered ecology, the ability to sustain even an individual human in a primitivist manner is depressed.

Which is why we need to stop further predation upon natural resources.

Quote

Quote3.  You're right, there is not enough huntable/gatherable foodstuffs to sustain our current population.  Technology has given us the ability to genetically alter crops, but time allowed the same thing as the domestication of certain plants followed a pattern of natural selection that reinforced traits useful to humans.  We just cut out the interim generational mutation necessary to get there.

Please explain further what you are saying here.

We've genetically engineered plants that produce larger yields, resistance to diseases and other things.  Given enough time, every sedentary group that developed any amount of agriculture would also have bred their crops for larger yields, and the ones more resistant to diseases would survive.  It may have taken a lot longer but differences in size of domesticated vs wild plants are well documented.  I'm just saying, genetic manipulation allows a quick path to more options, but over time, it would have happened anyway.

Quote

Quote4.  Being more environmentally acceptable is the point.  I think the systems of raiding and raping eliminated the weak and propagated those genes better suited for survival, regardless of the emotional stigmas associated with those behaviors in "Modern" society.  I have no illusions about an "eden-like" existence, but I don't see tribal behaviors as any worse than what goes on in society today.

They are no worse, but they are also no better, and they are certainly not anarchic, which was my point. If you are trying to build an anarchic-primitivist "society", you can't use any tribal organisation as a model.

Okay, I get you.  I need to stop qualifying my position as Anarcho-Primitivist until I do more research than two books and some TV shows. 

Quote

QuoteJust for the record, reading Guns, Germs, and Steel has helped to show me reasons why certain societies have subjugated or eliminated others, and shown me the almost inevitability of a culture like ours coming to dominate a world landscape.  Even were I to wave a magic wand and return the world to groups of hunter/gatherers, eventually it would return to something resembling what we have now.

 

Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

ditto

Quote

QuoteI readily admit the impracticality of trying to establish a worldwide return to tribalism, but I think that embracing some of the good things about it (like reducing society's ecological impact and strengthening interpersonal relationships) can provide achievable goals to improve the quality of life most people experience.  It has become a part of my map, but by no means the totality of it.

 

What you are forwarding with Anarcho-primitivism is not a return to tribalism, which, as earlier stated, was highly organised, but a completly new system. And I agree, decreasing ecological impact and strenghthening interpersonal relationships are two very important things that people would do well to pay more attention to.

QuoteCurrently I am intrigued by efforts to use technology to reduce the output of CO2 such as can be found here:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/

Hangero pointed out that currently the best thing to do is to pursue scientific answers to the problems we've created for ourselves, and that also made sense to me. 

I don't think I have all the answers, but I do think that more people should include Anarcho-Primitivism in their education, regardless of its problems, simply to expand their knowledge base and help eliminate some of the assumptions they take for granted without even knowing.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

No problem. You seem to be coming to a personal consensus on what you feel needs to be done, and I commend you for that. The reason that people reacted to you badly in the first place was your advocation for massive human death in responce to ecological crisis, a very (to say the least) controversial and (in my opinion) amoral approach to the problem.

That is all for now.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion. 

Sorry it took so long to reply, I'm playing poker at the same time, and formulating responses takes my attention away from the game, so it takes a while.

Why haven't you killed yourself yet?

Come on, dude...it's the only way to save the dolphins!

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2007, 01:43:43 AM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM
Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

Thought that was Jared Diamond.

Sweet Caroline, BA DA DA!  Your nerve gas never looked so good...:lol:

How on earth did I miss that?

Hows the site business going?

Quote from: Cain on January 28, 2007, 01:46:23 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2007, 01:43:43 AM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM
Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

Thought that was Jared Diamond.

Sweet Caroline, BA DA DA!  Your nerve gas never looked so good...:lol:

How on earth did I miss that?

Hows the site business going?

It's not, yet.  I got busy, then I saw what all was going on, and said "why bother"?

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

It was all the phrase. I disagree with people on here all the time about music/video tastes. I've said "Charlie the Unicorn sucks" and "The Cure was overrated". I didn't catch so much shit.

That and the stupid ass 11/12 thing.

I've never hated you, personally. I think you're views in the past were shit. I imagine in small doses I wouldn't want to kill you. You were on a "I have a rock solid, infallable worldview" kick, which is shitty in my eyes.

damn hunter is gettin soft



love is in the air

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2007, 01:47:35 AM

Quote from: Cain on January 28, 2007, 01:46:23 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2007, 01:43:43 AM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM
Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

Thought that was Jared Diamond.

Sweet Caroline, BA DA DA!  Your nerve gas never looked so good...:lol:

How on earth did I miss that?

Hows the site business going?

It's not, yet.  I got busy, then I saw what all was going on, and said "why bother"?

Shame.

Felix and Thurenz, you've been added.

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

Well, yeah.  Except for the youtube part.

But your ideas are stupid too, which makes it even more fun to smack you around.

But by all means, keep pushing that primitivism thing you're all pumped up about.  We need a good laugh, and there's no reason it shouldn't be at your expense.

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 28, 2007, 01:51:24 AM

Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 27, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
The thing that triggered a backlash of public opinion (at least in my view) was my criticism of a YouTube video that TGRR liked, followed by my use of a phrase that he regards as "his" which resulted in his crusade against me. 

It was all the phrase. I disagree with people on here all the time about music/video tastes. I've said "Charlie the Unicorn sucks" and "The Cure was overrated". I didn't catch so much shit.

That and the stupid ass 11/12 thing.

I've never hated you, personally. I think you're views in the past were shit. I imagine in small doses I wouldn't want to kill you. You were on a "I have a rock solid, infallable worldview" kick, which is shitty in my eyes.

Well, I hate him.  Of course, I hate everybody...but I hold a special kind of hate for someone who makes Hitler look like Mr Rogers.

Quote from: LHX on January 28, 2007, 01:54:18 AM
damn hunter is gettin soft



love is in the air

Awww, c'mon I said he was a stupid ass with a shitty worldview...

I did say I don't, hate him though, didn't I? That was soft.

He reads metro, So I know there's a fanboy in him somewhere. It's my softspot.

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 28, 2007, 02:00:16 AM

Quote from: LHX on January 28, 2007, 01:54:18 AM
damn hunter is gettin soft



love is in the air

Awww, c'mon I said he was a stupid ass with a shitty worldview...

I did say I don't, hate him though, didn't I? That was soft.

He reads metro, So I know there's a fanboy in him somewhere. It's my softspot.

holy shit
next hunters going to start a thread about cute, fuzzy kittens
:-)

OFUK

its all a bad dream
its all a bad dream
its all a bad dream

Quote from: LHX on January 28, 2007, 02:37:08 AM
OFUK

its all a bad dream
its all a bad dream
its all a bad dream

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Here's your emergency solipsism kit,

Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 28, 2007, 03:44:13 AM
Here's your emergency solipsism kit,

And here's your savior:

(http://loljesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/jesustitanic2ca2.jpg)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2007, 01:43:43 AM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 27, 2007, 05:54:29 AM
Just for the record, Guns Germs and Steel by Neil Diamond is an excelent book and I would suggest it to each and every person here on this forum.

Thought that was Jared Diamond.

Sweet Caroline, BA DA DA!  Your nerve gas never looked so good...:lol:

Sorry, Jared Diamond. Spelling and names, two things Im not good with.

ITT: you got it,dude!

(http://www.petportraitsbycarol.com/images/cat08.jpg)

This is my favorite Kitty painting. Say Hi to Mr. Whiskers!!!

(http://www.banders.com/justcats/advocacy/AlleyCatsLove.jpg)

Oh it's so true. HEE HEE HEE

(http://www.gotexoticsonline.com/leopard-cat-pictures-breeders-babies/pictures/leopard-cat-0005.jpg)

This is Moonchylde from my drum circle!
Wook at da Kute puddy tat.

Um, wrong thread?

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 28, 2007, 03:13:54 PM
ITT: you got it,dude!

(http://www.petportraitsbycarol.com/images/cat08.jpg)

This is my favorite Kitty painting. Say Hi to Mr. Whiskers!!!

(http://www.banders.com/justcats/advocacy/AlleyCatsLove.jpg)

Oh it's so true. HEE HEE HEE

(http://www.gotexoticsonline.com/leopard-cat-pictures-breeders-babies/pictures/leopard-cat-0005.jpg)

This is Moonchylde from my drum circle!
Wook at da Kute puddy tat.

lmfao

i really dint think id see hunter posting pictures of kittens

even if it is in jest


or just a cleverly disguised distraction to the fact that he really does love that painting and that woman is in his drum circle

Quote from: LHX on January 28, 2007, 03:56:55 PM

or just a cleverly disguised distraction to the fact that he really does love that painting and that woman is in his drum circle

:lol:
and i thought he was just going to write "fuck the kittens."

I've been spying for my REAL favorite website: HekateLoveMajick.com
Here is our symbol. We all have this tattoo:
(http://www.docstattoo.com/images/photos/dolphins1.jpg)


"You cannot resist us!"
                                  \
                                   \
(http://www.zulunation.com/artgallery/DOLPHINS2_lg.gif)

You aren't joking anymore.  Are you?

I am an agent of HIMMGOBS.

Hekate's Impervious Majick Moon Goddess Official Beatdown Service.

"We spread the love.... Of dolphins."

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 28, 2007, 06:51:22 PM
I am an agent of HIMMGOBS.

Hekate's Impervious Majick Moon Goddess Official Beatdown Service.

"We spread the love.... Of dolphins."

:lulz:

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 28, 2007, 06:51:22 PM
I am an agent of HIMMGOBS.

Hekate's Impervious Majick Moon Goddess Official Beatdown Service.

"We spread the love.... Of dolphins."

I just hope that this DOES lead to some sectarian violence between you and HIMEOBS.  Should be of great entertainment value. 

HIMMGOBS doesn't seem quite as. ..Expert at violence though.

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 28, 2007, 03:13:54 PM
ITT: you got it,dude!

(http://www.petportraitsbycarol.com/images/cat08.jpg)

This is my favorite Kitty painting. Say Hi to Mr. Whiskers!!!

(http://www.banders.com/justcats/advocacy/AlleyCatsLove.jpg)

Oh it's so true. HEE HEE HEE

(http://www.gotexoticsonline.com/leopard-cat-pictures-breeders-babies/pictures/leopard-cat-0005.jpg)

This is Moonchylde from my drum circle!
Wook at da Kute puddy tat.

Drum circle?

If you don't know what a drum circle is, don't learn.

Quote from: LMNO on January 29, 2007, 07:01:21 PM
If you don't know what a drum circle is, don't learn.

Too late.

Fucking google.

(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/gay.gif)
(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/mad.gif)(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/fag.gif)

On the other hand, being in a drum circle:

(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/gay.gif)
(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/lol.gif)(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/fag.gif)

But that's just because I'm an intolerant shithead.

So would this be a bad time to mention that I've been in a few drum circles?

Quote from: LMNO on January 29, 2007, 07:01:21 PM
If you don't know what a drum circle is, don't learn.

seconded.

really Rog, it just isn't worth it. there are plenty of other disturbing things on google without having to check this.

mang' - has encountered drum circle types [shudder]

RWHN - As an ex-Goth, and a drummer, I have been pulled into a few. 

The only one that was of any interest was when I was peaking on LSD, and there was a hot bellydancer doing her thing.





Essentially, it had nothing to do with drums, and everything to do with sex & drugs.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 29, 2007, 07:04:40 PM
So would this be a bad time to mention that I've been in a few drum circles?

sorry dude.

when i was going through massage school, we had a teaching assistant who was just the worst kind of newager/self help cliche. she brought her drum into class once. bad times.

:-(

Quote from: LMNO on January 29, 2007, 07:07:24 PM
RWHN - As an ex-Goth, and a drummer, I have been pulled into a few. 

The only one that was of any interest was when I was peaking on LSD, and there was a hot bellydancer doing her thing.





Essentially, it had nothing to do with drums, and everything to do with sex & drugs.

if i knew hot belly dancers were involved, i would've signed up.

sadly, this was not the case.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 29, 2007, 07:04:40 PM
So would this be a bad time to mention that I've been in a few drum circles?

(http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/bumper_car.gif)

TGRR,
Exercising rare self-restraint.

Actually, there is one thing that you can do if you ever encounter a drum circle:


MORE GODDAMN COWBELL.

(http://buffoonery.org/images/random/cowbell.gif)

I went to a college full of hippies, many of whom, myself included, were fairly adept hand drummers so it was inevitable really.  But they were pure "drum" circles.  No new age bullshit or anything.  We would have immediately tossed out anyone into that shit.  

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 29, 2007, 07:08:47 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 29, 2007, 07:04:40 PM
So would this be a bad time to mention that I've been in a few drum circles?

(http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/bumper_car.gif)

TGRR,
Exercising rare self-restraint.

Thanks, I think  :|

I was suppose to go to a drum circle once back in high school
was invited by one my semi-stoner classmates

showed up deep in the woods... saw half a dozen guys with drums... sitting there butt naked... turned around and went home

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 29, 2007, 07:12:01 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 29, 2007, 07:08:47 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 29, 2007, 07:04:40 PM
So would this be a bad time to mention that I've been in a few drum circles?

(http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/bumper_car.gif)

TGRR,
Exercising rare self-restraint.

Thanks, I think  :|

You got off easy.

Roger between Kevin Federline and drum circles, I'd say i'm fucking you up pretty good.

Know my pain bitch.

P.S. 85% of FOXNews viewers thought the presidents State of the Union address was "excellent".

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 29, 2007, 09:26:05 PM

P.S. 85% of FOXNews viewers thought the presidents State of the Union address was "excellent".

Careful
his head is gonna explode

85% of FOX News viewers would vote Joe Stalin in if the Republican party ran him for President.

No fuck.
They literally let a monkey run, and he won.


"Were looking out for you."
     \
(http://conservativetruth.org/opinionet/archives2/cctr/2002/images/mar20p2e.gif)

Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 29, 2007, 09:26:05 PM
Roger between Kevin Federline and drum circles, I'd say i'm fucking you up pretty good.

Know my pain bitch.

P.S. 85% of FOXNews viewers thought the presidents State of the Union address was "excellent".

(http://www.whofailedtoday.com/bbs/img/smilies/fucked.gif)

Actively trying to kill TGRR in this thread

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 30, 2007, 03:22:06 PM
Actively trying to kill TGRR in this thread

Well, at least you're trying.

Unfortunately, I seem to have become highly resistant to stupid (by which I mean the monkeys on teevee).

I'm still working on the joke that does TGRR in.  A pet project.

Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 31, 2007, 06:14:07 PM
I'm still working on the joke that does TGRR in.  A pet project.

Ask him if he's danced with his sister recently.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 12, 2006, 02:50:43 PM
I was thinking about this during my commute to work this morning.

Assuming one of our aims with BIP, etc. is to open minds, how do you deal with a defensive personality?  Or do you?

I'm just thinking you can start an honest and civil discussion with someone about BIP/Discordian ideas, etc.  In general sort of terms of course.

Then, if you are dealing with someone who tends to be quite defensive, you get to that point where something snaps in their head:  "Wait, are you preaching to me?"  or "Are you trying to convert me?" or something along those lines.

Is there a way to diffuse this? 

Thoughts?

Bump for better times.