Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[P3nT4gR4m]

This whole thread gives me the distinct impression that I should accept that racism (the white imposed on ethnic kind) is somehow my fault. Well fuck that. I'm not racist. I didn't oppress anyone for hundreds of years. Racism is retarded. If someone I know says something racist or abuses a minority I'll step on them. That's as far as it goes. Change my attitude? Fuck off. If you think my attitude is wrong, fuck you. I was born white. Lucky me. I was born male. Double lucky me. I'm not gay. Yippee I got it so easy I can't even begin to imagine how lucky I got it. I aint going to apologise for being lucky. You want something from me? Fine, just ask. I aint promising fuck all but I might be persuaded. So what do you want me to do? If the answer to that question is feel guilty about being born lucky, tho, you can forget it. I don't do shame.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

So here is a question. Where I live my children and I are the minority.  I have found, on more than one occasion, that the prejudice is rarely, if ever, in our favor.  Yet if I bring it to anyone's attention, I'm the one called racist. 

For example, when we were robbed recently the black officer actually asked "What did you expect, moving into this neighborhood?"  My response was "What?  Because I'm white I should expect to be robbed?" to which he just shrugged.

I think anytime anyone regardless of race or religion is treated with prejudice it is wrong. 

[Faust]

This whole thread gives me the distinct impression that I should accept that racism (the white imposed on ethnic kind) is somehow my fault. Well fuck that. I'm not racist. I didn't oppress anyone for hundreds of years. Racism is retarded. If someone I know says something racist or abuses a minority I'll step on them. That's as far as it goes. Change my attitude? Fuck off. If you think my attitude is wrong, fuck you. I was born white. Lucky me. I was born male. Double lucky me. I'm not gay. Yippee I got it so easy I can't even begin to imagine how lucky I got it. I aint going to apologise for being lucky. You want something from me? Fine, just ask. I aint promising fuck all but I might be persuaded. So what do you want me to do? If the answer to that question is feel guilty about being born lucky, tho, you can forget it. I don't do shame.

Coming from a line of 800 years of oppression I hope that peoples who are relatively new to the Racism Scene appreciated that we were persecuted long before they were.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This whole thread gives me the distinct impression that I should accept that racism (the white imposed on ethnic kind) is somehow my fault. Well fuck that. I'm not racist. I didn't oppress anyone for hundreds of years. Racism is retarded. If someone I know says something racist or abuses a minority I'll step on them. That's as far as it goes. Change my attitude? Fuck off. If you think my attitude is wrong, fuck you. I was born white. Lucky me. I was born male. Double lucky me. I'm not gay. Yippee I got it so easy I can't even begin to imagine how lucky I got it. I aint going to apologise for being lucky. You want something from me? Fine, just ask. I aint promising fuck all but I might be persuaded. So what do you want me to do? If the answer to that question is feel guilty about being born lucky, tho, you can forget it. I don't do shame.

That is not even vaguely the point of this thread, but that's a very common response to the subject of race being brought up. I think it's why so many people avoid it.

The point of this thread was actually just to discuss how so many people avoid thinking about it, and present that lack of thought as if it's a virtue. It's not a virtue. It's not a sin, either, but there is nothing intrinsically moral about not thinking about race, and I wanted to point out that the luxury of it not being a factor in your life is, in fact, a luxury. And now people are thinking and talking about race even though  it may make them uncomfortable, and that's all I was going for.

Does the OP give you the sense that I am somehow blaming white people for the fact that I'm not white?

I just like it when people are conscious. It's better to know, in my opinion, than it is to not know. The mere act of consciousness might actually change the world for the better, whereas being passive and unconscious never will.

[Faust]

Is there any reason to be concious of it or care if you wouldn't encounter it on a daily, monthly or even yearly basis?

[navkat]

This whole thread gives me the distinct impression that I should accept that racism (the white imposed on ethnic kind) is somehow my fault. Well fuck that. I'm not racist. I didn't oppress anyone for hundreds of years. Racism is retarded. If someone I know says something racist or abuses a minority I'll step on them. That's as far as it goes. Change my attitude? Fuck off. If you think my attitude is wrong, fuck you. I was born white. Lucky me. I was born male. Double lucky me. I'm not gay. Yippee I got it so easy I can't even begin to imagine how lucky I got it. I aint going to apologise for being lucky. You want something from me? Fine, just ask. I aint promising fuck all but I might be persuaded. So what do you want me to do? If the answer to that question is feel guilty about being born lucky, tho, you can forget it. I don't do shame.

This is more or less what it's taken me pages to convey. I can see both sides: the basic, human kindness and generosity side...the "sharing the burden" side and the "Fuck no! That's lame!" side.

Here's a devil's advocate argument: Guilt aside, how different is screeching "I'm white and I don't owe it to ANYONE to "watch my step" just because I was born with the advantage!" From the 1% screetching "I'm rich and I don't owe it to ANYONE to pay more taxes just because I was born with the advantage!" ?

I can see both sides of this.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"It's hard to think about other people's pain so I'm not gonna. That's good, right? I'm going to call it part of the solution and assert that if everybody just didn't think about other people's pain, the world would be a perfect place."

Whoahhhh...okay, this isn't about people's pain. If there's some injustice going on, yeah, tap me on the shoulder and I'll come roll up my sleeves.

If there's something that's bothering you in your heart TELL US. TELL US CLUELESS WHITE PEOPLE WHAT WE CAN DO. Or how it is that you feel that you need us to know.

I just feel that it's disengenuous for me to sit here and make promises I can't keep about always being mindful, always excercising thought and caution...and actually, I feel like it's more respectful that way. I don't operate under the pretense that I can speak for you or even 100% understand what the fuck is going on.

I am sorry that some of us were born without the responsibility to explain and express and correct and get beaten down year after year by the exhausting presence of insensitivity and ignorance. I empathize. But all I can do on my end is LISTEN and SELF CORRECT.

I AM TRYING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW.

I do feel that erosion is a powerful medium for change--that a lot can be accomplished by being a contributing factor in a society whose attitudes have changed and whose tolerance for bullshit has lowered...just by existing in that headspace. Maybe that's idealistic. Maybe it's naive. Maybe it's stupid. I've been accused of all three.

And I am sorry if I have offended you or hurt your feelings, Nigel. You can't know what a lump in my throat that gives me. I like you. I don't want you to dislike me.

All I can do is be candidly honest.

So far, you have used this thread as a platform from which to launch a series of apologia about how you're not racist, and how by not thinking about race you believe yourself to be making a positive change.

There is NOTHING WRONG with not thinking about race. Putting it out of your mind is not bad, it doesn't make you racist by default. Please stop seeing everything in such binary terms; I am not saying that you are part of the problem. In fact, you have plenty of your own problems to deal with and I would never expect or demand that you tackle social equality for brown people when you are not even able to attain it for yourself.

What I am saying is different. I am saying that "not part of the problem" =/= "part of the solution".

I am trying to think of how I can simplify this.

Can I say "white people" without anyone getting defensive?

White people often, as I have been trying to point out, say that they don't see/think about race.

1. This is not true, no matter how much you try to redefine the terms.

2. It is also not a virtue. It's not a sin, either, but there is nothing inherently virtuous or moral about not seeing/thinking about race.

3. It is not part of the solution to race problems.

There is a difference between SEEING race and ACTING on race. There is nothing whatsoever about noticing that someone is black, anymore than there is something wrong with being black. And that fine little distinction is very important.

[LMNO]

There is a difference between SEEING race and ACTING on race. There is nothing whatsoever about noticing that someone is black, anymore than there is something wrong with being black. And that fine little distinction is very important.

I think, through my occasional veil of ignorance, that this is the main point of the OP.  It's also 169% TROOFPASTE (which means I fully agree with it).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Coming from the Ivory tower I never see racism, we're composed of a load of different races.
Classism and intellectual snobbery are far more common in academia then racism ever is.

Some kinds of tribal allegiances take priority over race as social identifiers. Academia, military, role-playing games... if someone is in your tribe, that takes precedence over secondary identifiers.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There is a difference between SEEING race and ACTING on race. There is nothing whatsoever about noticing that someone is black, anymore than there is something wrong with being black. And that fine little distinction is very important.

I think, through my occasional veil of ignorance, that this is the main point of the OP.  It's also 169% TROOFPASTE (which means I fully agree with it).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"It's hard to think about other people's pain so I'm not gonna. That's good, right? I'm going to call it part of the solution and assert that if everybody just didn't think about other people's pain, the world would be a perfect place."

Whoahhhh...okay, this isn't about people's pain. If there's some injustice going on, yeah, tap me on the shoulder and I'll come roll up my sleeves.

If there's something that's bothering you in your heart TELL US. TELL US CLUELESS WHITE PEOPLE WHAT WE CAN DO. Or how it is that you feel that you need us to know.

I just feel that it's disengenuous for me to sit here and make promises I can't keep about always being mindful, always excercising thought and caution...and actually, I feel like it's more respectful that way. I don't operate under the pretense that I can speak for you or even 100% understand what the fuck is going on.

I am sorry that some of us were born without the responsibility to explain and express and correct and get beaten down year after year by the exhausting presence of insensitivity and ignorance. I empathize. But all I can do on my end is LISTEN and SELF CORRECT.

I AM TRYING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW.

I do feel that erosion is a powerful medium for change--that a lot can be accomplished by being a contributing factor in a society whose attitudes have changed and whose tolerance for bullshit has lowered...just by existing in that headspace. Maybe that's idealistic. Maybe it's naive. Maybe it's stupid. I've been accused of all three.

And I am sorry if I have offended you or hurt your feelings, Nigel. You can't know what a lump in my throat that gives me. I like you. I don't want you to dislike me.

All I can do is be candidly honest.

It is about people's pain. Think about it. How many times ave you bumped into a random black person you don't know? What are the odds that they reacted towards you by making themselves appear as non-threatening/non-black as possible? Fairly good, I'd say.

A couple of years ago, I was chilling at a little ice cream stand on The Strip, it was about 8 or 9 o'clock and dark. I was just sort of enjoying my Sundae, and a group of black people came up to me. I didn't think anything of it, cause one of the dudes was in one of my classes, so I figured he recognized me or whatever and was going to say hi. Well, a middle aged fellow, who appeared quite drunk, began chatting me up about ice cream for no apparent reason. The guy in my class, said "Don't worry, we aren't a threat." and seemed rather nervous and embarrassed by his companion's behavior. I said it was cool, and chatted with them for a few minutes until they finally manged to get the drunk fellow to come along to wherever they were originally headed. I waved good bye and went back to eating my ice cream.

Here's the thing: A stereotypical white person, being approached at random by a group of black people, may very well view them as a threat. Hence why my classmate felt inclined to say that they weren't. Me personally, it didn't even occur to me that that might be the case. But it occurred to THEM.

So, the point that is trying to be made, navkat, is that while your outlook works from your perspective. It doesn't do any good to the hundreds of thousands of black people who don't know you personally. It is, inherently, a privileged position. While I am not sure what you can do to actively alleviate it. I generally try to be conscientious that I don't do anything that might seem like a defensive gesture when I am walking down the hall and being approached by a non-white person. I'll keep my pace, make eye contact, smile, not fiddle with my phone, whatever. I do not know if that does anything to help most of the time. But smiling at a person generally brightens their day anyway, so maybe it also helps them see that their "otherness" is not important to me? I honestly don't know.

I think this post explains things really well.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So here is a question. Where I live my children and I are the minority.  I have found, on more than one occasion, that the prejudice is rarely, if ever, in our favor.  Yet if I bring it to anyone's attention, I'm the one called racist. 

For example, when we were robbed recently the black officer actually asked "What did you expect, moving into this neighborhood?"  My response was "What?  Because I'm white I should expect to be robbed?" to which he just shrugged.

I think anytime anyone regardless of race or religion is treated with prejudice it is wrong.

What is the question?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Is there any reason to be concious of it or care if you wouldn't encounter it on a daily, monthly or even yearly basis?

You mean if there are no brown people where you live? Then no, not really. The whole point of knowingly thinking about it is to help people connect with other people and to erode race boundaries, and there's really no point if there are no people of other races around to connect with.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This whole thread gives me the distinct impression that I should accept that racism (the white imposed on ethnic kind) is somehow my fault. Well fuck that. I'm not racist. I didn't oppress anyone for hundreds of years. Racism is retarded. If someone I know says something racist or abuses a minority I'll step on them. That's as far as it goes. Change my attitude? Fuck off. If you think my attitude is wrong, fuck you. I was born white. Lucky me. I was born male. Double lucky me. I'm not gay. Yippee I got it so easy I can't even begin to imagine how lucky I got it. I aint going to apologise for being lucky. You want something from me? Fine, just ask. I aint promising fuck all but I might be persuaded. So what do you want me to do? If the answer to that question is feel guilty about being born lucky, tho, you can forget it. I don't do shame.

This is more or less what it's taken me pages to convey. I can see both sides: the basic, human kindness and generosity side...the "sharing the burden" side and the "Fuck no! That's lame!" side.

Here's a devil's advocate argument: Guilt aside, how different is screeching "I'm white and I don't owe it to ANYONE to "watch my step" just because I was born with the advantage!" From the 1% screetching "I'm rich and I don't owe it to ANYONE to pay more taxes just because I was born with the advantage!" ?

I can see both sides of this.

You are both missing the point on a monumental scale. Somehow you defaulted to defensive mode (Someone's talking about race; they must be trying to make me feel guilty!) and got stuck there. Try to get out of defensive mode and realize that this isn't about blame. It's not even about changing your behavior. It's about changing your thinking to include consciousness of other people's experience.

If you are not interested in other people's experience, why are you here? Why are you Discordian?

[navkat]

So here is a question. Where I live my children and I are the minority.  I have found, on more than one occasion, that the prejudice is rarely, if ever, in our favor.  Yet if I bring it to anyone's attention, I'm the one called racist. 

For example, when we were robbed recently the black officer actually asked "What did you expect, moving into this neighborhood?"  My response was "What?  Because I'm white I should expect to be robbed?" to which he just shrugged.

I think anytime anyone regardless of race or religion is treated with prejudice it is wrong.

Wow. The point isn't "because I'm white, I should expect to be robbed" but rather a whoooole slew of fucked up attitudes on behalf of the cop:
1. Because you're white, you don't belong in that neighborhood
2. That hood (where whites don't belong and therefore, must be populated with non-whites) is one where robbery is expected and normal
3. Only non-whites have a good reason/excuse for being in a neighborhood where robbery is expected and normal