Theory of the Soul

[thewake]

Do you think the premise of a universe that allows for the existence of God (even, as you said, experienced in some subjective manner) is a universe of which God's existence is inherent? What about other concepts and beings?

[Meunster]

Do you think the premise of a universe that allows for the existence of God (even, as you said, experienced in some subjective manner) is a universe of which God's existence is inherent? What about other concepts and beings?

No edge and goes on fucking forever through time, with an undecipherable amount of dimensions. So I mean, everything is inherent.  Rather it effects you or not is unlikely.

[minuspace]

Do you think the premise of a universe that allows for the existence of God (even, as you said, experienced in some subjective manner) is a universe of which God's existence is inherent? What about other concepts and beings?

Perhaps it's easier to start with meaning, in the case of intelligibility, because it is not possible to deny, like:

"This sentence is meaningless"

[thewake]

Maybe meaning is inherent in how we perceive the universe and not necessarily in the universe beyond us as beings who impose a meaning on the inputs the universe puts into our senses.

Assuming this to be true, it's only our perception of the universe which has meaning, and not necessarily the universe itself.

Of course I don't really know, but I like to speculate.

[minuspace]

Dealing with counterfactuals, like a universe distinct of your experience, does not lend credence to the speculation.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Maybe meaning is inherent in how we perceive the universe and not necessarily in the universe beyond us as beings who impose a meaning on the inputs the universe puts into our senses.

Assuming this to be true, it's only our perception of the universe which has meaning, and not necessarily the universe itself.

Of course I don't really know, but I like to speculate.

This entire conversation is hopelessly stupid and I hate all of you idiots.

That said, yes, of course meaning is a function of perception and interpretation. The universe doesn't have inherent meaning, only inherent properties.

Think about the properties of light at the lowest end of the wave spectrum visible to humans, for example. Is that light blue? For that matter, is it light? Fuck no. It is short wavelength photon radiation, and the things that make it "blue" and "light" are the machinery of our biological receptors and interpretation of our brains.

[LMNO]

Thank you.

[Edward Longpork]

I hate to drop an incomplete thought like this (as I don't have the book handy), but doesn't Hofstadter take the opposite position in Godel Escher Bach?

He asserts that meaning emerges from these isomorphic relationships between concepts. The notion that meaning is generated only by humans, he called biological chauvinism. He thinks formal systems generate meaning, and humans don't create it, they decode it.


Personally, I disagree with Hofstadter there, but I wanted to put that out there. Please correct me if I've mis-characterized it!


Edit to add: I think he'd point out that the 'meaning' of 1+1 isn't a human construct

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This entire conversation is hopelessly stupid and I hate all of you idiots.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I hate to drop an incomplete thought like this (as I don't have the book handy), but doesn't Hofstadter take the opposite position in Godel Escher Bach?

He asserts that meaning emerges from these isomorphic relationships between concepts. The notion that meaning is generated only by humans, he called biological chauvinism. He thinks formal systems generate meaning, and humans don't create it, they decode it.


Personally, I disagree with Hofstadter there, but I wanted to put that out there. Please correct me if I've mis-characterized it!


Edit to add: I think he'd point out that the 'meaning' of 1+1 isn't a human construct

Am I supposed to give a flying fuck what a professor of philosophy said about the nature of meaning, reality, and cognition in 1979?

I didn't say that meaning is imposed only by humans. Meaning is, as I said, a function of perception and interpretation. That doesn't mean "by humans alone": perception and interpretation are broad terms, and I don't have sufficient data to put hard perimeters on their definitions.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

Maybe meaning is inherent in how we perceive the universe and not necessarily in the universe beyond us as beings who impose a meaning on the inputs the universe puts into our senses.

Assuming this to be true, it's only our perception of the universe which has meaning, and not necessarily the universe itself.

Of course I don't really know, but I like to speculate.

This entire conversation is hopelessly stupid and I hate all of you idiots.

That said, yes, of course meaning is a function of perception and interpretation. The universe doesn't have inherent meaning, only inherent properties.

Think about the properties of light at the lowest end of the wave spectrum visible to humans, for example. Is that light blue? For that matter, is it light? Fuck no. It is short wavelength photon radiation, and the things that make it "blue" and "light" are the machinery of our biological receptors and interpretation of our brains.

well then correct me if i'm wrong but it seems we agree on this much, that the universe has no inherent meaning, and meaning is a function of us interpreting the properties of the universe thru our senses. what we seem to differ on is whether or not those subjective meanings are worth considering. I would argue yes, seeing as how the only way we are able to read each others responses right now is that we ape descendants decided to attach subjective meaning to a bunch of squiggles that we all agreed were to stand in for words, which in turn, are a bunch of specific sounds we also agreed to attach subjective meaning to. Heck, we didn't even agree on the meanings across the board. Reading this paragraph out loud to a non-English speaker would sound like a bunch of random gibberish to them, because their subjective meanings are attached to a different set of sounds and squiggles.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jesus fuck, of course our subjective interpretations are "worth considering", what does that even mean? They are the only structure we have with which to interact with the world around us.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Maybe the problem here is the word "meaning". What do you fuckers mean by it?

[MMIX]

Meaning: When being mean is a verb

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

Basically, any trait we ascribe to a person, place, or thing. If  someone gives to charity a lot,  we say he's generous. If a house was the scene of a murder we say it's haunted. If we trust someone and they act contrary to that trust, we see it as betrayal. Stuff like that. See also the bit about stories  and how these traits are seen over a lifetime.