On Hyphenated-Americans.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Not to butt in, but that would be extremely weird.

Yeah, it is.  It's very fucking weird.  In the space of 7 days, I have had two people I've known for years essentially state that I am in fact a second-class human.  Then they get pissed because I got pissed, because I have contradicted the high epopts of blanket fart huffing.

Let's just try this one on for size:

YOU ARE EXCLUDED AND EJECTED FROM YOUR HERITAGE BECAUSE YOU ARE A YANKEE PIGFUCKER.

Yeah, you don't get to have any fucking roots.  You don't get to have any link to your ancestors.  You have been judged and found wanting.  PASSPORT ENTITLEMENT OR GTFO, YANK.

Sometimes I get fed up with this shithole country and I look at ways OUT and get the same thing: Not Dutch ENOUGH. Not German ENOUGH. Etc.
stelz
mongrel

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Not to butt in, but that would be extremely weird.

Yeah, it is.  It's very fucking weird.  In the space of 7 days, I have had two people I've known for years essentially state that I am in fact a second-class human.  Then they get pissed because I got pissed, because I have contradicted the high epopts of blanket fart huffing.

Let's just try this one on for size:

YOU ARE EXCLUDED AND EJECTED FROM YOUR HERITAGE BECAUSE YOU ARE A YANKEE PIGFUCKER.

Yeah, you don't get to have any fucking roots.  You don't get to have any link to your ancestors.  You have been judged and found wanting.  PASSPORT ENTITLEMENT OR GTFO, YANK.

Sometimes I get fed up with this shithole country and I look at ways OUT and get the same thing: Not Dutch ENOUGH. Not German ENOUGH. Etc.
stelz
mongrel

Yeah, I think I'll stay put.  I don't want to piddle on someone's carpet.

[Payne]

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying that this is what I believe Pixie feels. You asked me a question and I answered as best I could.

Well, there's an obvious solution for this, then.  If I cannot speak to her without pulling her triggers and all.

I think the obvious first step is to first give her a chance to say her own bit and respond to the parts of this conversation with her own voice, and then maybe we can proceed to the obvious solution after that.

It would, after all, only be fair.

And while no one seems to be thinking of overall fairness here , only what is fair to them personally, I think a sense of communal PD style justice and freedom of expression demands it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying that this is what I believe Pixie feels. You asked me a question and I answered as best I could.

Well, there's an obvious solution for this, then.  If I cannot speak to her without pulling her triggers and all.

I think the obvious first step is to first give her a chance to say her own bit and respond to the parts of this conversation with her own voice, and then maybe we can proceed to the obvious solution after that.

It would, after all, only be fair.

And while no one seems to be thinking of overall fairness here , only what is fair to them personally, I think a sense of communal PD style justice and freedom of expression demands it.

I have been willing to listen.  She hasn't been talking, past the first couple of hours last night.

In fact, that's what's made the rage monkey grow.  The drive-by nature of the whole thing.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And I'd be just as pissed if someone here said that Irish-Americans can't really be Americans.

This isn't about me, personally.  It's about exclusion in general.

[Payne]

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying that this is what I believe Pixie feels. You asked me a question and I answered as best I could.

Well, there's an obvious solution for this, then.  If I cannot speak to her without pulling her triggers and all.

I think the obvious first step is to first give her a chance to say her own bit and respond to the parts of this conversation with her own voice, and then maybe we can proceed to the obvious solution after that.

It would, after all, only be fair.

And while no one seems to be thinking of overall fairness here , only what is fair to them personally, I think a sense of communal PD style justice and freedom of expression demands it.

I have been willing to listen.  She hasn't been talking, past the first couple of hours last night.

In fact, that's what's made the rage monkey grow.  The drive-by nature of the whole thing.

I think that was explained though:

She woke up late, posted while still waking up but had to head off to our D'n'D game, and she's been out having to suffer the travails of spending time with her mother today too, most of the day.

Pix hasn't had a chance to reply at all really, except for when she's still been a little less than calm about it, and now I'm hogging the only internet connection we have.

[Cain]

I realize it may be too late now to back to the OP, but I wanted to add something.

I think the truth is inbetween the idea that Americans have a severely abbreviated culture and Hyphenated-Americans are Really Really Hyphenated People.

America was colonised in waves, and those waves often consisted of people from distinct linguistic and cultural groups, usually settling in similar areas to each other.  The parents bring the culture with them, from their homelands, but the children born there...well, they exist in a different geographical, legal, political and economic climate to the one their parents did, alongside other emerging or distinct foreign cultures as well.

Thus you have a case of divergent cultural evolution.  Much like the way Canadian French is different from Modern French, but related historically and linguistically, you have an Irish Tradition with an offshoot - the American-Irish tradition, and the Irish one.  Conditioned by outside factors and the course of history, there is inevitably going to be a major difference in how those traditions are percieved and what kind of behaviour they result in.

The only reason Irish Irishness is considered more legitimate than American Irishness is because the former controls the state of Ireland, and thus the percieved homeland of Irish Tradition by both sides.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying that this is what I believe Pixie feels. You asked me a question and I answered as best I could.

Well, there's an obvious solution for this, then.  If I cannot speak to her without pulling her triggers and all.

I think the obvious first step is to first give her a chance to say her own bit and respond to the parts of this conversation with her own voice, and then maybe we can proceed to the obvious solution after that.

It would, after all, only be fair.

And while no one seems to be thinking of overall fairness here , only what is fair to them personally, I think a sense of communal PD style justice and freedom of expression demands it.

I have been willing to listen.  She hasn't been talking, past the first couple of hours last night.

In fact, that's what's made the rage monkey grow.  The drive-by nature of the whole thing.

I think that was explained though:

She woke up late, posted while still waking up but had to head off to our D'n'D game, and she's been out having to suffer the travails of spending time with her mother today too, most of the day.

Pix hasn't had a chance to reply at all really, except for when she's still been a little less than calm about it, and now I'm hogging the only internet connection we have.

Well, then I guess I can't actually listen to her, then.

[Mangrove]

I realize it may be too late now to back to the OP, but I wanted to add something.

I think the truth is inbetween the idea that Americans have a severely abbreviated culture and Hyphenated-Americans are Really Really Hyphenated People.

America was colonised in waves, and those waves often consisted of people from distinct linguistic and cultural groups, usually settling in similar areas to each other.  The parents bring the culture with them, from their homelands, but the children born there...well, they exist in a different geographical, legal, political and economic climate to the one their parents did, alongside other emerging or distinct foreign cultures as well.

Thus you have a case of divergent cultural evolution.  Much like the way Canadian French is different from Modern French, but related historically and linguistically, you have an Irish Tradition with an offshoot - the American-Irish tradition, and the Irish one.  Conditioned by outside factors and the course of history, there is inevitably going to be a major difference in how those traditions are percieved and what kind of behaviour they result in.

The only reason Irish Irishness is considered more legitimate than American Irishness is because the former controls the state of Ireland, and thus the percieved homeland of Irish Tradition by both sides.

Thanks Cain. Your five concise paragraphs spared me an hour of typing, getting logged out and losing an hour's worth of typing.
Nicely put.

[Payne]

And I'd be just as pissed if someone here said that Irish-Americans can't really be Americans.

This isn't about me, personally.  It's about exclusion in general.

Fair point, and one I happen to agree with.

Hyphenated-Americans (or Brits or anything else) can sometimes make my teeth itch, but I get to call myself Scots-Canadian so it's hypocritical of me to in any way act on it.

[Payne]

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying that this is what I believe Pixie feels. You asked me a question and I answered as best I could.

Well, there's an obvious solution for this, then.  If I cannot speak to her without pulling her triggers and all.

I think the obvious first step is to first give her a chance to say her own bit and respond to the parts of this conversation with her own voice, and then maybe we can proceed to the obvious solution after that.

It would, after all, only be fair.

And while no one seems to be thinking of overall fairness here , only what is fair to them personally, I think a sense of communal PD style justice and freedom of expression demands it.

I have been willing to listen.  She hasn't been talking, past the first couple of hours last night.

In fact, that's what's made the rage monkey grow.  The drive-by nature of the whole thing.

I think that was explained though:

She woke up late, posted while still waking up but had to head off to our D'n'D game, and she's been out having to suffer the travails of spending time with her mother today too, most of the day.

Pix hasn't had a chance to reply at all really, except for when she's still been a little less than calm about it, and now I'm hogging the only internet connection we have.

Well, then I guess I can't actually listen to her, then.

Roger, I love and respect you. It's always good to chat, but this is the point where I have to hand over to her because yes you can't listen to her (because I'm being greedy and enjoying being back here).

Take care man, I'll be back in a few weeks when I get my own connection. Back with sequins!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I realize it may be too late now to back to the OP, but I wanted to add something.

I think the truth is inbetween the idea that Americans have a severely abbreviated culture and Hyphenated-Americans are Really Really Hyphenated People.

Hyphenated-Americans are that way because our history and heritage is about 30 minutes long.  We don't have a sense of cultural identity, because our society is a mish-mash of hundreds of cultures, none of which particularly want to learn about each other, because that might weaken the non-existent ties to their parent culture.  But I see you covered this:

America was colonised in waves, and those waves often consisted of people from distinct linguistic and cultural groups, usually settling in similar areas to each other.  The parents bring the culture with them, from their homelands, but the children born there...well, they exist in a different geographical, legal, political and economic climate to the one their parents did, alongside other emerging or distinct foreign cultures as well.

The only reason Irish Irishness is considered more legitimate than American Irishness is because the former controls the state of Ireland, and thus the percieved homeland of Irish Tradition by both sides.

And it was inevitable that the dog in the manger thing would start sooner or later.

Several Native American nations had this happen when they started seeing revenues from casinos (the ones that didn't get fucked out of those revenues, anyway).  Suddenly there were tests or one kind or another, or standards, as to who was actually "of the tribe".  It was amazing how exclusive it all got...And I'm not talking about Johnny-come-latelies who moved onto the Rez after the Casinos were built, I'm talking about life-long residents who turned out to have a White, Black, or Hispanic grandparent.

There's obviously no jackpot to split for being Irish, but the principle is the same.  If they let just ANYONE be Irish, then being Irish isn't as special.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I realize it may be too late now to back to the OP, but I wanted to add something.

I think the truth is inbetween the idea that Americans have a severely abbreviated culture and Hyphenated-Americans are Really Really Hyphenated People.

Hyphenated-Americans are that way because our history and heritage is about 30 minutes long.  We don't have a sense of cultural identity, because our society is a mish-mash of hundreds of cultures, none of which particularly want to learn about each other, because that might weaken the non-existent ties to their parent culture.  But I see you covered this:

America was colonised in waves, and those waves often consisted of people from distinct linguistic and cultural groups, usually settling in similar areas to each other.  The parents bring the culture with them, from their homelands, but the children born there...well, they exist in a different geographical, legal, political and economic climate to the one their parents did, alongside other emerging or distinct foreign cultures as well.

The only reason Irish Irishness is considered more legitimate than American Irishness is because the former controls the state of Ireland, and thus the percieved homeland of Irish Tradition by both sides.

And it was inevitable that the dog in the manger thing would start sooner or later.

Several Native American nations had this happen when they started seeing revenues from casinos (the ones that didn't get fucked out of those revenues, anyway).  Suddenly there were tests or one kind or another, or standards, as to who was actually "of the tribe".  It was amazing how exclusive it all got...And I'm not talking about Johnny-come-latelies who moved onto the Rez after the Casinos were built, I'm talking about life-long residents who turned out to have a White, Black, or Hispanic grandparent.

There's obviously no jackpot to split for being Irish, but the principle is the same.  If they let just ANYONE be Irish, then being Irish isn't as special.

CISamericanhet.   

[Junkenstein]

Is being Irish (or anything) special? Unless you are a real minority in a global sense, there's probably several million other very similar people with the same badge.

About the Casinos/rewards for heritage thing, I would say the fact that personal financial reward is once again the leading factor in the exclusion mindset. Share with you = Less for me.

This seems to extend to non-tangible things like being X.

Which explains a lot. I've seen some dumb shit done just because not doing it would be "less manly" implying that there is a finite supply of masculinity. This probably isn't coming out well.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I realize it may be too late now to back to the OP, but I wanted to add something.

I think the truth is inbetween the idea that Americans have a severely abbreviated culture and Hyphenated-Americans are Really Really Hyphenated People.

Hyphenated-Americans are that way because our history and heritage is about 30 minutes long.  We don't have a sense of cultural identity, because our society is a mish-mash of hundreds of cultures, none of which particularly want to learn about each other, because that might weaken the non-existent ties to their parent culture.  But I see you covered this:

America was colonised in waves, and those waves often consisted of people from distinct linguistic and cultural groups, usually settling in similar areas to each other.  The parents bring the culture with them, from their homelands, but the children born there...well, they exist in a different geographical, legal, political and economic climate to the one their parents did, alongside other emerging or distinct foreign cultures as well.

The only reason Irish Irishness is considered more legitimate than American Irishness is because the former controls the state of Ireland, and thus the percieved homeland of Irish Tradition by both sides.

And it was inevitable that the dog in the manger thing would start sooner or later.

Several Native American nations had this happen when they started seeing revenues from casinos (the ones that didn't get fucked out of those revenues, anyway).  Suddenly there were tests or one kind or another, or standards, as to who was actually "of the tribe".  It was amazing how exclusive it all got...And I'm not talking about Johnny-come-latelies who moved onto the Rez after the Casinos were built, I'm talking about life-long residents who turned out to have a White, Black, or Hispanic grandparent.

There's obviously no jackpot to split for being Irish, but the principle is the same.  If they let just ANYONE be Irish, then being Irish isn't as special.

CISamericanhet.   

Well, it's like this:  I am descended from Cornish stock.  I do not consider myself "Cornish-American", because I don't know much about Cornwall, I don't know anyone in Cornwall, but most of all I personally don't need a cultural identity cluttering up my already fucked up personal identity.

But I can see how some people NEED some form of cultural identity.  They HAVE to have it...And it costs the REALLY REAL Irish folks NOTHING to have a bunch of groupies way the fuck on the other side of the pond. 

Twid comes to mind, here.  His cultural identity is extremely important to him, to the point where he nationalized.

How this is somehow insulting to the Irish is utterly beyond me.