News:

Endorsement from MysticWicks: "The most fatuous, manipulative, and venomous people to be found here are all of the discordian genre."

Main Menu

Nein, du Führer!

Started by Verbal Mike, April 15, 2008, 12:01:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Verbal Mike

I just had an interesting thought. In German, there are two ways to say "you" - du is the informal, familiar form, and Sie is the formal address (always capitalized, to differentiate from the other two sies [she and they] - and I'm tragically serious about this). It occurs to me that in Spanish, Italian and in Russian the same kind of system exists. It also occurs to me that in Sweden, this kind of thing was as standard as it now is in Germany, until a few decades ago when people started dropping the formal form and just using the familiar with everyone.
And I wonder... Germany, Spain, Italy, and Russia all have very recent, very clear totalitarian pasts. None of the world's English-speaking nations do. And in these states (at least Germany and Russia, afaik) this kind of mechanism of respect and appeal to authority still exists today. In Sweden, it used to but it's pretty much faded away by now.
Could there be a connection here?
This is a thought I had just now, off the top of my head. Anyone know of any research regarding this matter? Or something?
Also, can we mis-appropriate the du/Sie concept in some comical way?
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Triple Zero

dutch also has it. still does. although when i feel like i have to use the formal form, i get confused and do it only like 50 percent of the time :) unless the other person is really old or something. i need something that reminds me of using the formal form. but maybe that's just me.

i don't think it has much to do with authoritarian pasts.

as for research, i don't know, but i seem to remember there has been research showing that the language people speak doesn't actually affect their thinking or behaviour in general. and i'm not talking about e-prime here, because as soon as that would enter the creole-phase (with the second generation) the words for "to be" would pop back in and all subtle objective/subjective distinction "gains" would be lost, because children learn language in a particular way, it will always fit a certain mould.

but IMO there is no inherent "temperament" hidden inside language. in culture, yes, maybe, probably. language, no. it's a different mechanism.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Reverend Ju Ju Booze

Well actually italian case is a little different because we had TWO formal ways of adressing people...
So we have "tu",obviously the same as "du",the familiar form
then we have "lei" (literally "she") that is the formal.When using this,you use third person,so "you are beautiful" in formal sounds literally "she is beautiful".Only,having beautiful,as almost any other italian word indeed,a masculine and a feminine form,you use the appropriate form.
My point against Verbatim is the third,formal,way.
"voi" is the plural of "tu",using this as a respectful form is obviously based on ancient "plurale Majestatis",popes referred to themselves as "We,the pope" for example.
Fascism endorsed this form,despiting the more dumb sounding "lei" form (hey,even fascist aren't ALWAYS wrong).
During fascism "voi" was the official and most used formal form,but is nowadays completely faded and you sound like a shitty Jane Austen character if you use it...
So I think that respectful Vs common form in italy is more related to a later Boss/Worker dicothomy than to fascism,being the fascist form dead.
Capitalism.
When it uses the carrot is called democracy,
When it uses the stick is called fascism.

hooplala

French has it too, and look at the French.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Verbal Mike

RJJB, in German the formal Sie is 100% identical in inflection to the "they" version of sie. Only difference is that the formal thingo is capitalized.
000, I don't imply that the language in any way caused totalitarianism, or even was a contributing factor. My point is rather that peoples with strong totalitarian pasts are more prone to actually stick to the formal forms. To Germans, the whole Sie thing comes totally natural, from what I've seen. I don't know if you're a rare Dutchie in that you get confused, but I've never met a German adult who was confused about it. People who "misuse" du do it on purpose, as an attack on authority, of sorts.
I think what I'm wondering is if people who lived under totalitarian regimes have a higher cultural affinity to the formalities of the language, making them less likely to confuse or forget these forms.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Cramulus

hmm

du and Sie are two different degrees of formality. If your hypothesis is correct, languages with more degrees of formality would have more ... hmmm... socially stratified cultures, right? I wonder if we can find one and look at it under a magnifying glass.

Upon research--

Japenese and Korean both have even more complex tones of formality.

QuoteJapanese politeness is famous for its array of bewildering politeness levels. The most common formal version is the verb ending -mas(u) at the end of a verb, or the use of suffixes such as -san or -sama, or prefixes such as o- or go-. Depending on whether the person you are speaking with has a higher or lower social status, you would use different personal pronouns or verbs.

QuoteKorean politeness is not that famous, but it is definitively complex... So complex that just a few languages (2 or 3 perhaps) are similar in the politeness aspect. In Korean, you mainly have 3 forms of politeness: the impolite form, known as 반�?(Banmal), the informal polite (most used) and the formal polite. These rules apply for most of the words in the vocabulary.

do you regard Japan and Korea as having the same quality you're trying to identify in cultures that use the formal/informal distinction? (you described it as totalitarianism) The logic suggests that they'd have more of it.

Triple Zero

Quote from: Hoopla on April 15, 2008, 01:40:18 PMFrench has it too, and look at the French.

:roll:

to verb:

ok i get your point.

but how do you know whether you should address someone in the formal form in German? relative age difference? or status?

because when i addressed the parents and grandmother of my austrian ex-gf with "Sie", i was later told this was felt as a littlebit odd, since i was considered part of the family now (sort of).

and status, when is someone higher status than you? your doctor? your professor? cause i know examples of both that would say "call me 'du'", kind of.

that's where it gets confusing for me :)
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Reverend Ju Ju Booze

Quotedo you regard Japan and Korea as having the same quality you're trying to identify in cultures that use the formal/informal distinction? (you described it as totalitarianism) The logic suggests that they'd have more  of it.

Well,I think Verb meant more Hierarchy than totalitarianism,so it can be...
Maybe Japanese more complex hierarchy-related forms are influenced by a historically more complex social hierarchy (or structure,anyway)...

Formal forms could even be drawn from a more "tribal" conception:friends and family are "du",the others are "Sie".I don't speak German (unfortunately,it's a language I really dig), but in Italian the respectful form is used not only to show respect,but also to strangers (even if nowadays "tu" is getting more used in situations in wich it would've considered slightly rude sometime ago).
Maybe the different forms just trace a line around us..
Capitalism.
When it uses the carrot is called democracy,
When it uses the stick is called fascism.

e

#8
Quote from: Hoopla on April 15, 2008, 01:40:18 PM
French has it too, and look at the French.
No doubt they still recall their glory days under Napoleon.  The garlic-eaters!

As for Japan, it was incredibly heirarchical for much of its history.  There is also quite the formal/informal language difference, and on several levels.  There is a level to use with equals (which gets used 90% of the time by youth today, I imagine), the level to use with superiors, and the level to use with inferiors.  Several verbs have entirely different verbs that go with these difference levels, while others simply get modified to hell.

Interestingly, my own study of the language has led me to notice that the more stuff you add on to a verb in Japanese, the more polite it usually gets.

for instance:
To be - iru
To be (polite) - irrasharu (a totally different verb)

So if you were to ask "Is <friend> there?", you would probably just say "<friend>, iru?"  This is totally lazy, since there's a couple of particles and copula that just completely get dropped, but that's colloquial speech.

If you were talking about somebody important, and were polite about such things, you could say several things, one of which being: "<name>-san ga irrashaimasen ka?" Which is actually asking a negative question, in a sort of "I wonder if his munifence NAME might condescend to tell me if he might be here?" way.

"Sorry" is also fun.  "Gomen" becomes "Moshiwakegozaimasen deshita".  Wheeee!

Quote from: triple zero on April 15, 2008, 03:46:45 PM
and status, when is someone higher status than you? your doctor? your professor? cause i know examples of both that would say "call me 'du'", kind of.

This is similar even in English, with professors asking you to call them by their first name instead of Mr/Mrs X.

Cain

Of course, hierarchy may not actually mean politically totalitarian.  It may be socially the case, even where there are high levels of freedom, that social norms are far more constrictive than legal ones.

Just wanted to point that out.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: triple zero on April 15, 2008, 01:12:53 PM
as for research, i don't know, but i seem to remember there has been research showing that the language people speak doesn't actually affect their thinking or behavior in general.

but IMO there is no inherent "temperament" hidden inside language. in culture, yes, maybe, probably. language, no. it's a different mechanism.

But, does culture not impact language? Perhaps verbatim's correlation is not cause, but effect? I'm of the opinion that Korzybski's argument may have been based on seeing effects, rather than identifying causes...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Verbal Mike

Quote from: triple zero on April 15, 2008, 03:46:45 PM
but how do you know whether you should address someone in the formal form in German? relative age difference? or status?
It's supposedly rather simple but confounds me to no end. Basically, you use Sie, except if:
-you are a student (in school or university) and the 2nd party is too
-the 2nd party is a child (as you can imagine, old people will discerningly use this to show they're old, when speaking to people otherwise Sie-worthy)
-the 2nd party is a friend, or family, or a friend of a friend, or a friend of family, or family of family (or, as you said, family of your Significant Other)
Except this is very slowly falling apart so I always want to say du but don't know if it would be a huge faux pas.

Anyhow, to get to the point, Ratatosk is closer to what I meant. I was thinking this element of language is a sort of indicator of culturally established hierarchy*, which in turn seems to be an excellent basis for totalitarian government and other societal ills. It also seems to me connected with the whole Authoritarian Personality business. Entirely anecdotal now, it seems to me that people who generally display authoritarian traits (i.e appeal to authority and/or assumption thereof) are also particularly likely to use Sie a lot. Young and/or rebellious, free-thinking types, tend to use Sie as little as possible.
I admit this is mere conjecture but it seems like a fascinating superficial effect of things otherwise stirring around beneath the surface.

*And in some sense it is, as it itself is a cultural system of hierarchy
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Kurt Christ

Actually, English lost its informal form of you, as you is formal. Thou was the English informal, but fell out of use. I hypothesize that we English-speakers are overly-ceremonial, proper, and stuck up, so informality was dropped from the laguage. Another interesting note is that in the Anarchist-controlled areas during the Spanish Civil War, stangers and friends alike were pretty invariably greeted as tu (that u is supposed to have an accent, but I have no idea how to accent shit, so whatever).
Formerly known as the Space Pope (then I was excommunicated), Father Kurt Christ (I was deemed unfit to raise children, spiritual or otherwise), and Vartox (the speedo was starting to chafe)

Cramulus

God is addressed as du, no?

Nast

As for the English use of "you": it wasn't originally just a formal pronoun, but also a plural one equivalent to the modern "ya'll". I'm not sure if it was adopted because all English-speaking people were stodgy, really, but rather just general linguistic drift. Pronouns frequently change meaning, such as the modern introduction of the singular "they".

"If I owned Goodwill, no charity worker would feel safe.  I would sit in my office behind a massive pile of cocaine, racking my pistol's slide every time the cleaning lady came near.  Auditors, I'd just shoot."