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Entitlement and Privilege

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, April 08, 2013, 05:11:17 PM

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navkat

Okay.

Saying it now: I'd like to hear your Official Thoughts on the oppression/government angle simply because I think it's relevant. Not from a position of allegiance to some brand of political science theology but from the pure realism I assume is intended by this thread.

I'm saying, I'm willing to listen.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: navkat: navkat of...navkat! on April 08, 2013, 06:02:50 PM
Okay.

Saying it now: I'd like to hear your Official Thoughts on the oppression/government angle simply because I think it's relevant. Not from a position of allegiance to some brand of political science theology but from the pure realism I assume is intended by this thread.

I'm saying, I'm willing to listen.

This thread is about entitlement with Arizona as a principle example.  You are asking for a completely irrelevant addition.

I can't fucking stand it.  I'm out.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

navkat

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 06:01:54 PM
You know, I'm just going to walk away for a little while and cool off.

I just spent two hours reading and writing to cover a very specific topic.  Now I am told that this isn't what I was supposed to be fucking doing.

I am angrier than I should be, I guess.  I have no clue whatsoever WHY I would think that a topic like this would stay on track past the first reponse.

I'll be back to write part 4 in a while.

Navvie, you want to talk about government oppression, you go start a thread and do it.  It's NOT what this thread is about.

I'm sorry. Not trying to get your dander up.

Maybe I should clarify what I mean. Give me a second to collect my thoughts.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: navkat: navkat of...navkat! on April 08, 2013, 06:02:50 PM
Okay.

Saying it now: I'd like to hear your Official Thoughts on the oppression/government angle simply because I think it's relevant. Not from a position of allegiance to some brand of political science theology but from the pure realism I assume is intended by this thread.

I'm saying, I'm willing to listen.

So you're demanding content on YOUR topic of choice? You're interested in it, YOU write it.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cain

As I'm sure you can imagine, I spend a lot of my days having to deal with the relationship between 1. and 2. in the OP.

Lots of my students have never had curfews, never had to tidy their rooms, never had be considerate of others around them, never had to be organized or really look after themselves.  Not all, some have in fact had excellent upbringings, or else been in situations to make them understand just how privileged they are.

But most have not.  And thus they feel entitled to act in particular ways which stem from that.  Thus, when I tell them "stop being noisy little shits, it's midnight on a Wednesday", they feel that I'm infringing on their right to behave in such a way.

And then I have to sit them down for The Talk.

Obviously, this is less in the political and more in the social sphere, but the two do interact, and one who feels entitled socially will quite likely also feel so in a political context.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 06:00:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 05:48:58 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 05:45:21 PM
I also think that there are certain factors, like age, which work differently depending on your economic class. A rich old person has more power (slightly distinct from privilege) than a rich young person, but a poor old person has less power than a poor young person, especially if they are also female.

I covered that in part 2, but I was speaking from Arizona, where things are slightly different on a cultural level.

I do agree that culture affects the entitlements of aging quite a lot.

Yeah, here it's the White retired crowd that carries the most punch, both economically and at the voting booth.

Right... my point was that age works differently at different economic levels. You're white and wealthy, age gets you more clout. You're poor and brown and age gets you even more fucked over because people aren't even afraid of you anymore. You're an old White man, people will probably listen to you. You're an old Hispanic lady, they might let you clean their toilets.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Government is a tool for oppression in this instance.  It is wielded by those with the highest levels of privilege, with the support of the classes directly beneath them.  As such, it falls under oppression and does not require additional descriptions for the purposes of this discussion.

Now I need some time to get back in the frame of mind to continue.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

navkat

I'm trying to comprehend what's being seen as divergent here. I'm not trying to go off-topic. Give me a break here, would you please?

Okay, attempt to post this shows that Cain responded. His last line sort of hits where I'm trying to go in a sense.

LMNO

The majority of the first page, and Cain's response on this page, is awesome, and needs to be tattooed on Sherriff Joe's ass.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 06:10:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 06:00:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 05:48:58 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 05:45:21 PM
I also think that there are certain factors, like age, which work differently depending on your economic class. A rich old person has more power (slightly distinct from privilege) than a rich young person, but a poor old person has less power than a poor young person, especially if they are also female.

I covered that in part 2, but I was speaking from Arizona, where things are slightly different on a cultural level.

I do agree that culture affects the entitlements of aging quite a lot.

Yeah, here it's the White retired crowd that carries the most punch, both economically and at the voting booth.

Right... my point was that age works differently at different economic levels. You're white and wealthy, age gets you more clout. You're poor and brown and age gets you even more fucked over because people aren't even afraid of you anymore. You're an old White man, people will probably listen to you. You're an old Hispanic lady, they might let you clean their toilets.

Sure.  That's why I put age at the very bottom of the catagories.  The catagories are, as demonstrated, cumulative.  A poor old female has far less clout than a poor young female.  Likewise, a rich Hispanic person has more clout than a poor White person.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

navkat

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 06:11:02 PM
Government is a tool for oppression in this instance.  It is wielded by those with the highest levels of privilege, with the support of the classes directly beneath them.  As such, it falls under oppression and does not require additional descriptions for the purposes of this discussion.

Now I need some time to get back in the frame of mind to continue.

Okay.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2013, 06:09:27 PM
As I'm sure you can imagine, I spend a lot of my days having to deal with the relationship between 1. and 2. in the OP.

Obviously, based on what you've said in the past, although I might add that the two are not separate things, for the most part.  Privilege is what one HAS, and entitlement is how they perceive what they have with respect to their place in the pecking order.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

Nav, why don't you let Rog finish posting everything he's trying to explain first, and then you can try opening up the conversation.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 06:10:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 06:00:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 05:48:58 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 08, 2013, 05:45:21 PM
I also think that there are certain factors, like age, which work differently depending on your economic class. A rich old person has more power (slightly distinct from privilege) than a rich young person, but a poor old person has less power than a poor young person, especially if they are also female.

I covered that in part 2, but I was speaking from Arizona, where things are slightly different on a cultural level.

I do agree that culture affects the entitlements of aging quite a lot.

Yeah, here it's the White retired crowd that carries the most punch, both economically and at the voting booth.

Right... my point was that age works differently at different economic levels. You're white and wealthy, age gets you more clout. You're poor and brown and age gets you even more fucked over because people aren't even afraid of you anymore. You're an old White man, people will probably listen to you. You're an old Hispanic lady, they might let you clean their toilets.

Sure.  That's why I put age at the very bottom of the catagories.  The catagories are, as demonstrated, cumulative.  A poor old female has far less clout than a poor young female.  Likewise, a rich Hispanic person has more clout than a poor White person.

I'm not trying to quibble about something that is actually not terribly important, but the distinction that I'm trying to make is that age works the opposite for poor colored people than it does for rich white people, in that rather than having the least power when you're young, you have the least power when you're old. So the most disempowered people, even in Arizona, are the ones who are poor, brown, trans, female, 65+, rather than poor, brown, trans, female, ~18.

If that makes sense.

Anyway, it's a minor distinction and I don't mean to detract from the thread, but rather to enhance it.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


navkat

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 08, 2013, 06:16:53 PM
Nav, why don't you let Rog finish posting everything he's trying to explain first, and then you can try opening up the conversation.

Yes. I didn't realize I was throwing shit on the track there.