Atheists and White Supremacists

[hooplala]

I might throw out there that atheism as a state of identity is itself a uniform that can only be worn in a state of privilege.

I think this statement is absolutly true.  And that, in a nutshell, is why there are so many angry atheists.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I might throw out there that atheism as a state of identity is itself a uniform that can only be worn in a state of privilege.

I think this statement is absolutly true.  And that, in a nutshell, is why there are so many angry atheists.

Because theists force atheists to wear the uniform.

[Kai]

In essence, I see Atheists as people who look at reality and say "I want to be a member of an identity club that allows me to either wield my intellectual aspirations as a bludgeon, or to chuckle approvingly at those who do so".

The atheist (note the small a) population, by and large, fails to speak out against the Atheist community's bigotry, thereby tacitly accepting and endorsing it as a representation of all atheism.

Did you not see my post? http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,35654.msg1306825.html#msg1306825

How are the statements you are making any different than the nonsense I asked years ago, "If the good Muslims disapprove, why do I never hear them speaking out?"

[hooplala]

I might throw out there that atheism as a state of identity is itself a uniform that can only be worn in a state of privilege.

I think this statement is absolutly true.  And that, in a nutshell, is why there are so many angry atheists.

Because theists force atheists to wear the uniform.

Bingo. Apparently in Portland, the place young people go to retire, this is not an issue... Therefore it is not an issue at all, and anyone who disagrees is insecure.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I happen to agree with this 100%.

I think part of Nigel's point though is that [at least subset of vocal] atheists do in fact think they are smarter than theists. Or at least saner. Hell, I was initially embarrassed to admit to being a theist of any stripe here because I figured that I would be mocked for it. Why would I feel that way if not for a perception that theists have about how atheists think of them?

Theists fear ridicule online, sure. That's a thing. Atheists? They can fear being disowned by their parents, shunned by coworkers, sometimes fired. I got evicted once. From public housing. Because it became known that I was an atheist. I haven't spoken to my parents in almost two years. I'm sorry that the Internet is a place where a bunch of mean old bullies might post a tasteless picture mocking religious beliefs, though.

The bottom line is that it's inexcusable to take a person's identity and tell them they are a bad person for holding to it. Maybe they go to far, maybe they don't know who they might offend. But there's a reason they hold to it and it makes more sense to find out who they are and why they call themselves whatever it is they call themselves, and hopefully help them to not be a wankstain in the process, than to get all belligerent and shout insults at people because you've decided that whatever it is they call themselves can only be bad.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I will also point out that a few months back, several atheists from here jumped on an atheist friend who put his foot in his mouth and came off sounding like he said that Muslims were backwards barbarians on FB. Coyote, ECH and Kai immediately come to mind.

Actually, I think I have to elaborate on this too, since this seems like quite a similar situation.

The friend in question was reacting against something I said about writing a paper on specifically anti-Muslim sentiment within the atheist community. He thought I was attacking atheism as a whole, rather than this one particular trend. He took offense as an atheist to something I said about something atheists do to make themselves look like assholes.

Nigel's an atheist. Seems like the offense should have ended once she basically said that she doesn't believe in god. Yeah, it was a jarring thing for her to have said, but she doesn't believe in gods either. She just chooses not to identify as a non-believer, but rather as someone who happens to have no beliefs. It has no bearing on her identity, unlike the Atheist who makes it part of their identity. An atheist lacks religious beliefs. An Atheist has religious beliefs. At that point agnostic, apatheist, ignotheist, antipatheist, etc... are equally valid terms, and really, more specific ones.

When my friend realized that I was the only believer going wtf he stopped posting and sent me a pm saying, "look sorry I was an asshole. I get what you were saying now."

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I might throw out there that atheism as a state of identity is itself a uniform that can only be worn in a state of privilege.

I think this statement is absolutly true.  And that, in a nutshell, is why there are so many angry atheists.

Because theists force atheists to wear the uniform.

Bingo. Apparently in Portland, the place young people go to retire, this is not an issue... Therefore it is not an issue at all, and anyone who disagrees is insecure.

I see it from both sides, which I will touch on in response to Vex, since it seemed like his post was leading into it anyway.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

That is a candy coating. What she actually said was that anyone who chooses to have "atheist" as a defining characteristic is, automatically and without exception, an insecure asshole. I disagree with that assessment of the situation.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I happen to agree with this 100%.

I think part of Nigel's point though is that [at least subset of vocal] atheists do in fact think they are smarter than theists. Or at least saner. Hell, I was initially embarrassed to admit to being a theist of any stripe here because I figured that I would be mocked for it. Why would I feel that way if not for a perception that theists have about how atheists think of them?

Theists fear ridicule online, sure. That's a thing. Atheists? They can fear being disowned by their parents, shunned by coworkers, sometimes fired. I got evicted once. From public housing. Because it became known that I was an atheist. I haven't spoken to my parents in almost two years. I'm sorry that the Internet is a place where a bunch of mean old bullies might post a tasteless picture mocking religious beliefs, though.

The bottom line is that it's inexcusable to take a person's identity and tell them they are a bad person for holding to it. Maybe they go to far, maybe they don't know who they might offend. But there's a reason they hold to it and it makes more sense to find out who they are and why they call themselves whatever it is they call themselves, and hopefully help them to not be a wankstain in the process, than to get all belligerent and shout insults at people because you've decided that whatever it is they call themselves can only be bad.

Well, that is incredibly fucked up shit. Sorry all that happened to you.

Though I'm sure the same if not similar has happened to Muslims, Pagans, Jews, certain types of Christians, etc. It's not exactly like atheism has a monopoly on that. And atheists under certain regimes have not been so enlightened to not do the same when in a position of societal power.

At the end of the day, what some atheists have to go through (that shit wouldn't fly in Boston) isn't an excuse for their behavior. Being less of an asshole doesn't make one not an asshole.

I disagree with the premise that identifying with atheism is a matter of insecurity, unless insecurity is defined as lack of social capital, in much the same way that I said that theists force atheists to wear the atheist uniform.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

That is a candy coating. What she actually said was that anyone who chooses to have "atheist" as a defining characteristic is, automatically and without exception, an insecure asshole. I disagree with that assessment of the situation.

Well, if they make it their defining characteristic, wouldn't that be the case? Do you think of yourself as an atheist or do you just happen to be one? Because I've seen Nigel say that anyone who makes it a point to define themselves as anything is insecure about their identity in regards to that particular thing, whether it be ethnicity, religious inclination, musical preference, etc.

I'm guessing that whatever the reason, people latching onto the idea of being an atheist in particular are irking her lately and felt like sparking debate over the matter.

Also completely off topic, but I had a sudden craving for a chicken parm sub just now and needed to express that thought.

[Don Coyote]

not ignoring what you have said Twid, but this is basically how I feel.

That is a candy coating. What she actually said was that anyone who chooses to have "atheist" as a defining characteristic is, automatically and without exception, an insecure asshole. I disagree with that assessment of the situation.

and then being told I have a position of privledge or have to have one in order to say "hey I don't worship gods" and then to have roger invalidate my fucking rage Obert this shit because I didn't get his back on pent being a dick about religion.
that is is also why I am furious.
I evidently only matter in so far as I support and defend certain people here and only if I always do so.
because it's not life I haven't ripped into people for being shits before.  But I guess it only matters if its special topics.
I've been so furious I almost cut class because I am shaking with rage. This is the kind of rage that were those two assholes members of my family i would have cut ties with them after screaming at them until my throat bled.
so fuck them
I've been having a shitty quarter already. I don't need some selectively moralistic shits call me I am a fucking nazi for not kowtowing to invisible sky dudes.
It's not life I already hate myself for being tpo cowardly to be combat arms and for even being a member of the fucking us military who may have probably had a hand in killing hundreds of people simply by doing his job.
I don't need some fucking whit privilege giilt trip fire being an atheist.

or withdrawal it make you fucks happy if I just stopped posting here for f I bkung 3v er.
becaue evidently what little content I have provided,  directly to riger, us just not enough.  u need to do when he wants it and gods ducky forbid I fucking write a paper instead of coming up with clever insults or goi g trolling.  or whatever the dunk else us what he wants.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I happen to agree with this 100%.

I think part of Nigel's point though is that [at least subset of vocal] atheists do in fact think they are smarter than theists. Or at least saner. Hell, I was initially embarrassed to admit to being a theist of any stripe here because I figured that I would be mocked for it. Why would I feel that way if not for a perception that theists have about how atheists think of them?

Theists fear ridicule online, sure. That's a thing. Atheists? They can fear being disowned by their parents, shunned by coworkers, sometimes fired. I got evicted once. From public housing. Because it became known that I was an atheist. I haven't spoken to my parents in almost two years. I'm sorry that the Internet is a place where a bunch of mean old bullies might post a tasteless picture mocking religious beliefs, though.

The bottom line is that it's inexcusable to take a person's identity and tell them they are a bad person for holding to it. Maybe they go to far, maybe they don't know who they might offend. But there's a reason they hold to it and it makes more sense to find out who they are and why they call themselves whatever it is they call themselves, and hopefully help them to not be a wankstain in the process, than to get all belligerent and shout insults at people because you've decided that whatever it is they call themselves can only be bad.

Well, that is incredibly fucked up shit. Sorry all that happened to you.

Though I'm sure the same if not similar has happened to Muslims, Pagans, Jews, certain types of Christians, etc. It's not exactly like atheism has a monopoly on that. And atheists under certain regimes have not been so enlightened to not do the same when in a position of societal power.

At the end of the day, what some atheists have to go through (that shit wouldn't fly in Boston) isn't an excuse for their behavior. Being less of an asshole doesn't make one not an asshole.

I disagree with the premise that identifying with atheism is a matter of insecurity, unless insecurity is defined as lack of social capital, in much the same way that I said that theists force atheists to wear the atheist uniform.

This is all correct. I just oppose turning the word "atheist" into a slur, simply because a few assholes take it too far. If I say I'm an atheist, or a non-believer/unbeliever, or just "I do not personally subscribe to your views and/or beliefs," I think it's unreasonable to automatically meet that with hostility if there is no hostility in the statement itself. And no, one person, or a hundred people deciding to purposely turn the word "atheist" into an epithet by insisting that anyone who calls themselves that is pathetic, insecure, and rude, by definition, does not actually impart inherent hostility to someone who is none of those things but calls themselves "atheist" anyway.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

not ignoring what you have said Twid, but this is basically how I feel.

That is a candy coating. What she actually said was that anyone who chooses to have "atheist" as a defining characteristic is, automatically and without exception, an insecure asshole. I disagree with that assessment of the situation.

and then being told I have a position of privledge or have to have one in order to say "hey I don't worship gods" and then to have roger invalidate my fucking rage Obert this shit because I didn't get his back on pent being a dick about religion.
that is is also why I am furious.
I evidently only matter in so far as I support and defend certain people here and only if I always do so.
because it's not life I haven't ripped into people for being shits before.  But I guess it only matters if its special topics.
I've been so furious I almost cut class because I am shaking with rage. This is the kind of rage that were those two assholes members of my family i would have cut ties with them after screaming at them until my throat bled.
so fuck them
I've been having a shitty quarter already. I don't need some selectively moralistic shits call me I am a fucking nazi for not kowtowing to invisible sky dudes.
It's not life I already hate myself for being tpo cowardly to be combat arms and for even being a member of the fucking us military who may have probably had a hand in killing hundreds of people simply by doing his job.
I don't need some fucking whit privilege giilt trip fire being an atheist.

or withdrawal it make you fucks happy if I just stopped posting here for f I bkung 3v er.
becaue evidently what little content I have provided,  directly to riger, us just not enough.  u need to do when he wants it and gods ducky forbid I fucking write a paper instead of coming up with clever insults or goi g trolling.  or whatever the dunk else us what he wants.

I hear that man.

And you know, doesn't matter to me if you jumped in on the convo with Pent. Even if I didn't already know that you would, and have, as mentioned previously, it's possible that you didn't have time for it that day or anything else. Fuck, I know you're a busy guy. I am too. I haven't posted much as I used to myself.

It is an interesting thing though. Religion, or lack thereof, is the one thing still available to us that socially acceptable to publicly shit all over each other for. Minus Judaism, which might bring up accusations of Nazism from everyone.

We all know it's wrong to be anti-whateveryouareist unless its anti-whateveryoubelievism

If you ever need to drop a line a vent about the military thing, give me a heads up. Seems like that's been weighing on your mind quite a bit lately. I won't understand what it's like but I'll listen.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

That is a candy coating. What she actually said was that anyone who chooses to have "atheist" as a defining characteristic is, automatically and without exception, an insecure asshole. I disagree with that assessment of the situation.

Well, if they make it their defining characteristic, wouldn't that be the case? Do you think of yourself as an atheist or do you just happen to be one? Because I've seen Nigel say that anyone who makes it a point to define themselves as anything is insecure about their identity in regards to that particular thing, whether it be ethnicity, religious inclination, musical preference, etc.

I'm guessing that whatever the reason, people latching onto the idea of being an atheist in particular are irking her lately and felt like sparking debate over the matter.

Also completely off topic, but I had a sudden craving for a chicken parm sub just now and needed to express that thought.

If I were to make a list of ten sentences beginning with the words "I am," the word "atheist" would probably be in there somewhere. Not sure where, it would depend on the day and my mood. But somewhere in those ten lines would be a statement where I call myself an atheist. It's important to me, not because I need reassurance, or because I need to seek a tribe or an echo chamber where my beliefs can be magnified without being questioned, or because I think the most important thing about my self-identity is that I purposely choose not to believe. It would be there because saying "I am an atheist" is an affirmation of identity in a society where atheism is still sometimes shamed. Not because I have constructed this idea of what it means to be an "atheist" and must remind myself to live up to it; but because that is what I am, in this culture's vocabulary, and there's nothing wrong with differing from the majority -- even adamantly, even loudly sometimes. And because people who could easily assume atheism is a niche should be reminded that they probably know some atheists personally, and they should be mindful of that.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

That is a candy coating. What she actually said was that anyone who chooses to have "atheist" as a defining characteristic is, automatically and without exception, an insecure asshole. I disagree with that assessment of the situation.

Well, if they make it their defining characteristic, wouldn't that be the case? Do you think of yourself as an atheist or do you just happen to be one? Because I've seen Nigel say that anyone who makes it a point to define themselves as anything is insecure about their identity in regards to that particular thing, whether it be ethnicity, religious inclination, musical preference, etc.

I'm guessing that whatever the reason, people latching onto the idea of being an atheist in particular are irking her lately and felt like sparking debate over the matter.

Also completely off topic, but I had a sudden craving for a chicken parm sub just now and needed to express that thought.

If I were to make a list of ten sentences beginning with the words "I am," the word "atheist" would probably be in there somewhere. Not sure where, it would depend on the day and my mood. But somewhere in those ten lines would be a statement where I call myself an atheist. It's important to me, not because I need reassurance, or because I need to seek a tribe or an echo chamber where my beliefs can be magnified without being questioned, or because I think the most important thing about my self-identity is that I purposely choose not to believe. It would be there because saying "I am an atheist" is an affirmation of identity in a society where atheism is still sometimes shamed. Not because I have constructed this idea of what it means to be an "atheist" and must remind myself to live up to it; but because that is what I am, in this culture's vocabulary, and there's nothing wrong with differing from the majority -- even adamantly, even loudly sometimes. And because people who could easily assume atheism is a niche should be reminded that they probably know some atheists personally, and they should be mindful of that.

I dig.

I'm about to go to sleep. I'll undoubtedly catch up on the next 10 pages sometime in the morning.