Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 01:58:47 am

Title: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 01:58:47 am
Ok, so, look, this thing is pretty complicated. The actual children involved, who they belong to, how and when and what exactly happened. It's a mess. No one is all that sure, except maybe the people who found facts and made sure.

You might even ask yourself: who the fuck cares? Celebrity gossip, blah blah blah.

But here's the thing:

I don't usually concern myself with the lives of the rich and affluent. I didn't really give a damn when Tiger Woods was caught cheating on his spouse. Or that asshole Sandra Bullock was married to. These things, overall, do not concern me.

But recently, it is dawning on my that it should.

We do not live in a vacuum. The actions we carry out do not live in isolation except very rarely. Much, much less so  with people who have influence over the teeming, ignorant masses.

Woody Allen has a career that spans some 50 years. 5 decades of injecting his thoughts into the hearts and minds of human beings the world over. Given that, does he carry an intrinsic responsibility to the rest of us? I am apt to say, No. I frimly assert that people's choices are their own and they have to live it with a lot longer than I do.

HOWEVER, I have responsibilities too. I have to make sure my son grows up in such a fashion that he undoes what men have been doing to women since time out of mind. I am the only one who can make sure he knows to treat women with repsect, to not violate their boundaries. If my son raped someone and I found out I would beat the living shit out of him, you can believe that. Set you clocls by it. He will be an adult at that point, and I will spare him nothing. Will this fix anything? No, probably not. But he will suffer consequences, oh yes. I will do, I HAVE to do everything in my power to prevent that from happening.

By extention of that lovely thought, I cannot endorse anything that allows him to believe he is allowed to perpetuate the fucked up rape culture we find outselves in.

He has been enjoying Arkham City, his BATMANGAME. I cannot allow him to play it anymore. Why? Because when the thugs see the Dark Knight on the rooftops they shout, "Whaddya scared? C'mon down and fight!"

When they see Catwoman, who is all legs and tits, they shout, "I'm gonna make you beg me to stop." As well as ample use of the word bitch. Every woman gets called a bitch. Recenlty, I have edited this word out of my daily lexicon, the same way I don't way something is gay, or call people cunts. Not because people police me against it, but because I well and truly do not want to treat people like that. I do not want to reduce their humanity in that way, I refuse to do so.

He will be very upset. He won't get it. But I will not allow his mind to be poisoned to think that's casually ok, that women can be treated so drastically different from men. Small seeds grow very large.

So, from a broader perspecitve, is it ok to simply not give a fuck about Woody Allen? Sure. You do your thing and I will do mine, I am not going to sit here and tell you to fortify yourself with moral indignation.

At the same time, I will loudly bark in to people's faces that Woody Allen is NOT OK. That apologizing for him is even more so NOT OK.

And I would like to take the time to point out that there are far, far too many people who simply enjoy his movies without giving pause for thought that he is a detestable human being, and that this bland acceptance furthers a culture that promotes rape. molestation, and general montrousness.

We have a serious issue here, and elsehwere in the world, and it has to do with how women are treated. It isn't going to fix itself. It isn't going to be fixed by being passive or quiet about it. It is only undone by the slow crawl of generations, but the hard work falls to each of us, especially we white males.

Believe it or not, people listen to us more than anyone else. So it is we who have to look at these things and shout loudly about how wrong they are. We have to give a fuck about Woody Allen because we can so easily ignore him.

Who cares? Find out.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:06:55 am
Or Tiger Woods for that matter.

Or so many exmaples of men who could, and would, be role models for countless young men.

Here in the 21st Century, this is the best we can offer? These privileged few who treat women like garbage?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 02:19:15 am
I'm laughing at this whole thing because I'm suppose to care about what Woody Allen does.

Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:20:39 am
"Supposed" is a mighty strong word in this context.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:22:51 am
Quote
So, from a broader perspecitve, is it ok to simply not give a fuck about Woody Allen? Sure. You do your thing and I will do mine, I am not going to sit here and tell you to fortify yourself with moral indignation.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 02:29:15 am
Sorry I was referring to the outrage on facebook. More interested to see if he gets a slap on the wrist because he's Woody Allen if he is guilty.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:30:20 am
Oh, hah.

Yeah, I doubt it since it happened 20 years ago.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Bu☆ns on February 10, 2014, 02:30:36 am
You make a pretty convincing argument considering my current state of apathy about all of this.  What I'm taking away from this is more like regardless if its true or not, what is important is how we, as a collective, respond to these KINDS of claims. Because it's not so much about taking sides but about demonstrating a kind of collective openness to others who share a similar predicament. Hm.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 02:31:43 am
Or at least be stripped of his awards.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:35:38 am
You make a pretty convincing argument considering my current state of apathy about all of this.  What I'm taking away from this is more like regardless if its true or not, what is important is how we, as a collective, respond to these KINDS of claims. Because it's not so much about taking sides but about demonstrating a kind of collective openness to others who share a similar predicament. Hm.

Certainly that is a large part of it.

My own concern is the manner in which this illustrates quite clearly how we, as a society, demonize those who make claims of being abused, while giving men the benefit of the doubt to extraordinary degrees.

His daughter stands by what she said 21 years ago. Why are we so quick to question HER instead of HIM? What does a child have to gain from that? What does he stand to lose?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:36:19 am
It is an intregal component of rape culture.

It is also very difficult to see or care about if you have never been a victim of it.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:47:32 am
The same applies for many of the other things tumblr often loses its shit over.

They take it to far, but racism, body shaming, and all the rest are important.

In the same way I won't raise my son to hate women, I will not raise him to reduce human beings to their size.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 02:55:49 am
Or at least be stripped of his awards.

That's just it, it won't ever happen. That is the problem. There is no consequence socially or professionally.

Molest your daughter, keep your adoring fans.
How about this?

Quote
In 1977, after a photo shoot in Los Angeles, Polanski was arrested for the statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl and pleaded guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor.[17] To avoid sentencing, Polanski fled to his home in London, eventually settling in France. More than 32 years later, in September 2009, he was temporarily arrested by Swiss police at the request of U.S. authorities, who unsuccessfully asked for his extradition.[18][19][20] During an interview for a later film documentary, he offered his apology to the woman,[21] and later said that he had regretted that episode for the last 33 years.[22]

Polanski continued to make films such as The Pianist (2002), a WWII true story drama about Jewish-Polish musician Władysław Szpilman. The film won three Academy Awards including Best Director, along with numerous international awards. He also directed other films, including Oliver Twist (2005), a story which parallels his own life as a "young boy attempting to triumph over adversity".[2] His most recent films are The Ghost Writer (2010), a thriller focusing on a ghostwriter working with a former British Prime Minister, and Carnage (2011), a comedy-drama starring Jodie Foster and Kate Winslet.

And he was actually charged with the crime.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 03:03:49 am
Or Michael Motherfucking Jackson?

NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYkh1WF60x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 03:10:38 am
I have noticed a trend we Discordians tend to share:

We eschew these new modern gods, celebrities, for an old one who speaks to us.

But the bulk of the worlds clings to the lives and actions of entertainers. They live and breathe their words, actions, songs; their lives are considered public property. This is not to be discounted, and I don't think  we fully realize the full impact they have on humanity as a whole.

We can ignore that because it is stupid, but we cannot ignore the effects for long.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 03:15:33 am
And let's not forget R. Kelly.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 04:30:34 am
Wasn't Michael Jackson just a case of yellow journalism over and over again? Didn't one of the kids confess the parents made him lie about it?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 04:33:39 am
Didn't two of the jurors admit they were pressured into their verdict by the others? Didn't they both have book deals? Didn't everyone want to believe that that deeply psycholgically damaged icon of decades could never, ever possibly do anything wrong?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 04:42:14 am
Here is the truth:

We humble peons will never know what happened behind closed doors between to strange meatbags.

We do not know.

But our culture is deeply immersed in the avoidence of openly villainizing victims of sexual abuse. This causes thousands and thousands of unreported incidences.

I am not one to make assumptions off incomplete data if I can help it, but these are things that bear consideration.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 04:46:37 am
Maybe the fans see themselves as the accuser, and think that could be me. Think of how when the pre-rich defend corporations.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 04:49:13 am
Yes, they feel they own a part of that person. That it is the best of thenselves who are at risk if being defamed.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2014, 04:50:09 am
I have noticed a trend we Discordians tend to share:

We eschew these new modern gods, celebrities, for an old one who speaks to us.

But the bulk of the worlds clings to the lives and actions of entertainers. They live and breathe their words, actions, songs; their lives are considered public property. This is not to be discounted, and I don't think  we fully realize the full impact they have on humanity as a whole.

We can ignore that because it is stupid, but we cannot ignore the effects for long.

We often forget that Hollywood is in the business of giving America what it wants. It is a magnifying mirror held up to our culture.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2014, 04:53:09 am
Wasn't Michael Jackson just a case of yellow journalism over and over again? Didn't one of the kids confess the parents made him lie about it?

Isn't your question a symptom of the fact that we will go to extraordinary lengths and spectacular intellectual gymnastics in order to seek ways to exonerate the rich, famous, and powerful men in our society?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 04:56:10 am
I am glad for it, it is a clear example of the larger problem. It is exactly that which I woukd like to bring attention to.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2014, 04:57:48 am
Here is the truth:

We humble peons will never know what happened behind closed doors between to strange meatbags.

We do not know.

But our culture is deeply immersed in the avoidence of openly villainizing victims of sexual abuse. This causes thousands and thousands of unreported incidences.

I am not one to make assumptions off incomplete data if I can help it, but these are things that bear consideration.

Well, and that really is the interesting thing, isn't it? The fact that America so badly yearns for Woody Allen to be exonerated that it openly latches onto the story that Mia Farrow is a terrible, vindictive brainwashing bitch, that it is not Woody, who had an affair with and then married Farrow's daughter, who tore the family apart, but that conniving, jealous, false-memory-planting witch Farrow. It was her, it was all her fault.

This is the same story we've been fed about the balance of blame when abuse happens for centuries. She was asking for it. He wouldn't have had to do it if she hadn't made him. If Mommy hadn't been a cold fish in bed, Daddy wouldn't have turned to little Jenny to have his needs met. It was her fault. HER fault. HER FAULT.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 04:59:55 am
Wasn't Michael Jackson just a case of yellow journalism over and over again? Didn't one of the kids confess the parents made him lie about it?

Isn't your question a symptom of the fact that we will go to extraordinary lengths and spectacular intellectual gymnastics in order to seek ways to exonerate the rich, famous, and powerful men in our society?

Probably? I do remember people stopped caring after new accusations were coming out. To the point it numbed and trivilized accusations of child molestation. So the media won?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 05:03:07 am
Here is the truth:

We humble peons will never know what happened behind closed doors between to strange meatbags.

We do not know.

But our culture is deeply immersed in the avoidence of openly villainizing victims of sexual abuse. This causes thousands and thousands of unreported incidences.

I am not one to make assumptions off incomplete data if I can help it, but these are things that bear consideration.

Well, and that really is the interesting thing, isn't it? The fact that America so badly yearns for Woody Allen to be exonerated that it openly latches onto the story that Mia Farrow is a terrible, vindictive brainwashing bitch, that it is not Woody, who had an affair with and then married Farrow's daughter, who tore the family apart, but that conniving, jealous, false-memory-planting witch Farrow. It was her, it was all her fault.

This is the same story we've been fed about the balance of blame when abuse happens for centuries. She was asking for it. He wouldn't have had to do it if she hadn't made him. If Mommy hadn't been a cold fish in bed, Daddy wouldn't have turned to little Jenny to have his needs met. It was her fault. HER fault. HER FAULT.

Yes. And it is so simple and easy to do!

I spoke with my father a few weeks ago.

"Now I am not trying to talk bad about your mom. But she could have done a better job of.letting me know where you were."

Where I was, in Anchorage, AK for 20+ years. Yeah.

So easy to blame the women who broke your poor, poor heart.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 05:10:37 am
Shit, I get dirty looks from people now.

Because of my attitude, certainly I desverved the abuse I got. Maybe it didn't even feel that bad to me because I am a dick to people.

Even if Mia Farrow IS an unstable mean person, you cannot weigh that against the monstrousity of abusing a child.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 05:13:01 am
Shit, I get dirty looks from people now.

Because of my attitude, certainly I desverved the abuse I got. Maybe it didn't even feel that bad to me because I am a dick to people.

Even if Mia Farrow IS an unstable mean person, you cannot weigh that against the monstrousity of abusing a child.
Here is the truth:

We humble peons will never know what happened behind closed doors between to strange meatbags.

We do not know.

But our culture is deeply immersed in the avoidence of openly villainizing victims of sexual abuse. This causes thousands and thousands of unreported incidences.

I am not one to make assumptions off incomplete data if I can help it, but these are things that bear consideration.

Well, and that really is the interesting thing, isn't it? The fact that America so badly yearns for Woody Allen to be exonerated that it openly latches onto the story that Mia Farrow is a terrible, vindictive brainwashing bitch, that it is not Woody, who had an affair with and then married Farrow's daughter, who tore the family apart, but that conniving, jealous, false-memory-planting witch Farrow. It was her, it was all her fault.

This is the same story we've been fed about the balance of blame when abuse happens for centuries. She was asking for it. He wouldn't have had to do it if she hadn't made him. If Mommy hadn't been a cold fish in bed, Daddy wouldn't have turned to little Jenny to have his needs met. It was her fault. HER fault. HER FAULT.

Yes. And it is so simple and easy to do!

I spoke with my father a few weeks ago.

"Now I am not trying to talk bad about your mom. But she could have done a better job of.letting me know where you were."

Where I was, in Anchorage, AK for 20+ years. Yeah.

So easy to blame the women who broke your poor, poor heart.

Yeah, when people justify rape/murder to people they don't like. "Yeah it sucks that happened, but hey they were assholes right?"
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2014, 05:26:12 am
Wasn't Michael Jackson just a case of yellow journalism over and over again? Didn't one of the kids confess the parents made him lie about it?

Isn't your question a symptom of the fact that we will go to extraordinary lengths and spectacular intellectual gymnastics in order to seek ways to exonerate the rich, famous, and powerful men in our society?

Probably? I do remember people stopped caring after new accusations were coming out. To the point it numbed and trivilized accusations of child molestation. So the media won?

What, exactly, are you trying to say here? That people shut out the accusations because they made them uncomfortable and they preferred not to think about them? I would agree with that. Or are you trying to imply that victims should not make their allegations public because they "numb and trivialize" accusations of molestation? What, exactly, is your point?
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2014, 05:27:32 am
For the record, these are the exact same allegations they have been for 20 years. There are no "new" allegations.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2014, 05:30:23 am
I think it's worth pointing out that the argument that "people stopped caring because of new allegations" is pretty much indistinguishable from blaming the victim. It is basically a form of "shut up shut up SHUT UP".
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Junkenstein on February 10, 2014, 09:21:04 am
I can't help but think when hearing the latest on Jimmy, Rolf and company that sooner or later the US version is going to happen and there's going to be actual celebrity lynchings.

Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2014, 10:56:37 am

When they see Catwoman, who is all legs and tits, they shout, "I'm gonna make you beg me to stop." As well as ample use of the word bitch. Every woman gets called a bitch. Recenlty, I have edited this word out of my daily lexicon, the same way I don't way something is gay, or call people cunts. Not because people police me against it, but because I well and truly do not want to treat people like that. I do not want to reduce their humanity in that way, I refuse to do so.


How old is he? I only ask because it IS a fifteens certificate game.

I remember there was a lot of furore over Catwoman being called a bitch, by the CONVICTED MURDERERS/DRUG DEALERS/RAPISTS who have escaped the maximum security prison (or the city is the prison I cant recall), I don't think children should be playing it, not because of the way women are portrayed but of the overall casual violence and the overriding message that Vigilantism is the ONLY solution.

Catwomans role was actually one of the stronger aspects of the game, she is strong, independent, is in full control of and utilises her sexual agency, and when said convicts call her a bitch or so much as get in between her and what she wants, she proceeds to knock them out.

She is placed in the trope position of a female in jeopardy at the start from Batmans perspective, but it's turned around nicely as the plot progresses, he get's himself into a far bigger mess than she did and you as the player as Catwoman have to save him.

But the overarching themes of the game are insanity, voilence as a means to achieve what you want and a society that has failed to the point that a mad vigilante dressed as a bat is the only solution.

It is a good story with one of the more positive portrayals of women in games but it's dark themes and content, as the guideline on the box states are not for children.

As to Woody Allen, I don't like the man, and I don't know what to make of the charges,  they are serious and if true I hope the police investigation and court case  get justice for the victim.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Ben Shapiro on February 10, 2014, 12:02:43 pm
Nigel:What, exactly, are you trying to say here? That people shut out the accusations because they made them uncomfortable and they preferred not to think about them? I would agree with that.

Yes, this is my point

Nigel: Or are you trying to imply that victims should not make their allegations public because they "numb and trivialize" accusations of molestation? What, exactly, is your point?


Of course not people should be investigated when allegations of rape, or molestation surface.With the MJ case I brought up. The angry monkeys get into a shout fest with each other (MJ fans and non MJ fans) about attacking his "character" that the attention shifts from the child(ren) to "leave Michael alone". A new allegation surfaces MJ fans refuse to accept the idea of MJ might be molesting children, and now this time they're for sure they're after his money because he was found innocent the first time. This is what I meant with my "numb and trivialize" comment.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 05:38:02 pm
Faust, he is way too young for it.  :lol:

You make a lot of good points,
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Cramulus on February 10, 2014, 06:11:19 pm
I've gotta be honest, I've never actually seen a Woody Allen movie. Weird, right? And I don't care about him enough to do research in order to formulate an opinion on this.

My default position is to believe somebody who claims they were raped or abused. In this case too, I see no reason not to believe the girl.

That being said - there was a time when a lot of people went to jail because they were accused of performing ritual satanic abuse on children. And we would later discover that the way that you ask a kid a question greatly influences what they think they remember. Elizabeth Loftus (at the time, the head of the American Psychological Association) felt very strongly that the American court system had convicted people on flimsy evidence which quickly fell apart when examined. "Better for 10 guilty people to go free than for 1 innocent person to go to jail" and all that. She freed many innocent people, but the media reported it as if she was just trying to free pedophiles and psychopaths. She was getting death threats. She was jeered out of the american psychological association and had to flee to Australia. Our outrage towards shitbags readily transitions into being shitbags ourselves.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Woody Allen should be excused or given a pass. The crux of the matter seems like it's less about Woody Allen specifically, and more about rape culture in general and how we respond to this type of information. So to that end, and because I am quite ignorant of the details, I default to believing the girl.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 06:18:38 pm
It is, I think, very, very rare that children make false claims against close family and relations.

Unless they are sociopaths, I would imagine humans are mostly wired against causing the harm that result from such claims.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Cramulus on February 10, 2014, 06:44:22 pm
just wanted to drop a link to the satanic ritual abuse thing in case anybody's interested -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

Quote
A 1996 investigation of more than 12,000 allegations of satanic, ritual and religious abuse resulted in no cases that were considered factual or corroborated.

Children are generally unreliable witnesses and courts don't use their testimony as evidence unless its necessary.  In the SRA debacle, the main thing was that kids give totally different answers depending on how you lead the question. They were also using hypnosis / regression techniques which we now know to be false memory factories.

That's neither here nor there re: the woody case though, sorry. Again, I do believe the girl and don't think she was brainwashed or whatever.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: President Television on February 10, 2014, 08:40:10 pm
To me, as someone who actually has been molested as a kid, it seems glaringly obvious that Woody Allen is guilty. I didn't tell anyone for years because I was terrified that nobody would believe me and I'd end up in the exact position Farrow did. It was only when I came to realize that everyone hated my molester anyway that I began to open up. What people fail to realize is that there really isn't anything to gain from false accusations of this sort that makes them worth the massive wave of public hate. It's not like I can sue him for money. Attention? Most of the time, the names of the victims are censored in the press, so there goes the fame angle. And whatever attention we do get is... exactly the kind of attention Dylan Farrow's getting. It's because of cases like this that I still haven't taken the bastard to court. If he walks, I'm fucked forever. I wouldn't want to be in Farrow's shoes.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 08:47:59 pm
That's just it. If you have never known abuse, it is so easy to give benefit of the doubt, especially to anyone who appears as though they would never do sonething like that.

If you have experienced abuse, it's all too obvious.

Everyone sees your abuser in a different light, because there is no single body or facial or personality type, no outward sign that gives clues to their true nature. They look just like people.

I am sorry you have to deal with that.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Pergamos on February 10, 2014, 09:04:49 pm
False accusations do happen, that's part of why courts need to presume innocence and there has to be a substantial burden of proof on the accuser.  The link in the OP made it quite clear though that public opinion is not a court and the same burden of proof does not apply. 

I wasn't aware of all this until I saw this thread, but the arguements given were convincing enough for me to believe Woody Allen is a child molester.  Doesn't mean I am in favor of lynching him but it does mean I am not going to ever spend any of my money to see one of his movies, and I'll discourage anyone else who I might have the power to discourage from doing so.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2014, 10:19:36 pm
False accusations do happen, that's part of why courts need to presume innocence and there has to be a substantial burden of proof on the accuser.  The link in the OP made it quite clear though that public opinion is not a court and the same burden of proof does not apply.

And in many cases  that same public opinion can end up interfering with the criminal investigation and making an already difficult to prove case nigh on impossible, what with biasing investigators, potential jurors, and polarising peoples beliefs with anecdotal evidence, kneejerking to defend Allen or hanging him without his day in court. Or worse still they build up to the point that he will flee the country like Roman Polanski and absolutely no justice will be accomplished either way.

Comments like "glaringly obvious that Woody Allen is guilty" don't help.

I suspect he is guilty, but I am not in a position to say it's obvious that he is. Nor would I have the credibility or involvement in the case to say so.

All I can offer is a hope that a support net of friends and people are there to help Ms Farrow and that despite so much time having passed there will be a way to substantiate what she is saying, and that a ruling would be in her favour without the process being more difficult for her than it has been.
I would not insult her pretending my knowledge or involvement extends beyond that.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 11:12:41 pm
In this particular instance I don't think public opinion that is negative toward Woody Allen is going to do much harm, compared with the harm that leaving his precious reputation unsoiled will do. I say precious because there is an overwhelming number of people who will rush to defend him, presumably because they enjoyed Small Time Crooks just that much.

The case is closed, legally. No legal machine in the world would touch this case as A)It's two decades old, B)It would be a circus, and C)Nobody in a position to care seems to. And anyway, it was already decided when it happened. Charges were not held up.

The issue at hand is not even whether anyone can prove or disprove Dylan Farrow's claims. The issue is our culture's strong desire to avoid soiling the good name of a well known and influencial public figure, and the consequences of that behavior. The issue is, the man is highly respected, he won a Lifetime Acheivement award, FFS. The problem with that isn't that he isn't raked over coals by the entertainment industry, it's that there (seemingly) is no public discussion of the possibility that we, collectively, have idolized a sexual abuser.

Do you suppose the assholes who decided on that award sat around having a discussion like this?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/boy-ive-really-put-you-in-a-tough-spot-havent-i,34949/

Innocent until proven guilty is for the system of governing bodies that rule over us with power we cannot fight. But a Lifetime Acheivement Award? A motherfucking Lifetime Acheivement Award?

This doesn't demand a lynching, but it does demand a discourse that make people decidedly uncomfortable.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 10, 2014, 11:14:12 pm
BTW, Faust, thanks for helping to pull my head out of my ass RE: Arkham City. I told him it was broken and got him Legos Batman instead. Dunno what I was thinking.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2014, 11:39:21 pm
In this particular instance I don't think public opinion that is negative toward Woody Allen is going to do much harm, compared with the harm that leaving his precious reputation unsoiled will do. I say precious because there is an overwhelming number of people who will rush to defend him, presumably because they enjoyed Small Time Crooks just that much.

The case is closed, legally. No legal machine in the world would touch this case as A)It's two decades old, B)It would be a circus, and C)Nobody in a position to care seems to. And anyway, it was already decided when it happened. Charges were not held up.

The issue at hand is not even whether anyone can prove or disprove Dylan Farrow's claims. The issue is our culture's strong desire to avoid soiling the good name of a well known and influencial public figure, and the consequences of that behavior. The issue is, the man is highly respected, he won a Lifetime Acheivement award, FFS. The problem with that isn't that he isn't raked over coals by the entertainment industry, it's that there (seemingly) is no public discussion of the possibility that we, collectively, have idolized a sexual abuser.

Do you suppose the assholes who decided on that award sat around having a discussion like this?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/boy-ive-really-put-you-in-a-tough-spot-havent-i,34949/

Innocent until proven guilty is for the system of governing bodies that rule over us with power we cannot fight. But a Lifetime Acheivement Award? A motherfucking Lifetime Acheivement Award?

This doesn't demand a lynching, but it does demand a discourse that make people decidedly uncomfortable.

I wasn't familiar with the details of the case. I lived in hopeful ignorance that the charges would be brought to trial. That's unfortunate and looks like a failure of justice at the time and as you say a reflection of our culture. Despite his bizarre relationship with his current girlfriend/daughter people still seem to jump to defend him.

Guess all that's left is for people to vote with their wallets, if you want to get someone out of the entertainment industry it's only possible by making them financially toxic to the producers. If no one goes to see his films pretty soon he wont be able to make any more.
Ironically though the attention positive or negative will boost sales of any upcoming projects he has.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2014, 11:42:01 pm
BTW, Faust, thanks for helping to pull my head out of my ass RE: Arkham City. I told him it was broken and got him Legos Batman instead. Dunno what I was thinking.

It's not the worst game to let a kid play, and fifteens probably conservative, plenty of 10-12 year old would be mature enough to distinguish that the darker themes aren't reflective of real life.

My mother and I had several arguments over my brother playing the new grand theft auto. He is only 11 and there is a pretty graphic torture scene in it. The rest of the game is vulgar but not too bad, I would have preferred if he had waited a few more years before playing it.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 11, 2014, 12:33:13 am
In this particular instance I don't think public opinion that is negative toward Woody Allen is going to do much harm, compared with the harm that leaving his precious reputation unsoiled will do. I say precious because there is an overwhelming number of people who will rush to defend him, presumably because they enjoyed Small Time Crooks just that much.

The case is closed, legally. No legal machine in the world would touch this case as A)It's two decades old, B)It would be a circus, and C)Nobody in a position to care seems to. And anyway, it was already decided when it happened. Charges were not held up.

The issue at hand is not even whether anyone can prove or disprove Dylan Farrow's claims. The issue is our culture's strong desire to avoid soiling the good name of a well known and influencial public figure, and the consequences of that behavior. The issue is, the man is highly respected, he won a Lifetime Acheivement award, FFS. The problem with that isn't that he isn't raked over coals by the entertainment industry, it's that there (seemingly) is no public discussion of the possibility that we, collectively, have idolized a sexual abuser.

Do you suppose the assholes who decided on that award sat around having a discussion like this?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/boy-ive-really-put-you-in-a-tough-spot-havent-i,34949/

Innocent until proven guilty is for the system of governing bodies that rule over us with power we cannot fight. But a Lifetime Acheivement Award? A motherfucking Lifetime Acheivement Award?

This doesn't demand a lynching, but it does demand a discourse that make people decidedly uncomfortable.

I am incredibly impressed that the Onion managed to pull that off and make it funny! Damn, that's some good work.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 11, 2014, 12:40:33 am
Right? It rolls the bulk of the issue up so neatly, without cheapening anyone's experience. Definitely one of the best Onion pieces ever.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: LMNO on February 11, 2014, 01:25:01 pm
It really does hit the nail on the head.  Luckily, I'm not a terribly big fan of his.  I've never found the "nervous neurotic" Author Avatar schtick all that entertaining.  So for me, I'm more apt to reject his work based upon his distasteful alleged personal life.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 11, 2014, 05:53:56 pm
Yeah, I gotta wonder why people even like his crappy movies to begin with. And I've ALWAYS thought he was a creepy little sex abuser ever since the whole "Sorry, wife, I'm actually nailing our adopted daughter" thing.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 11, 2014, 05:55:13 pm
What a fucking piece of crud. Sorry, I don't actually have anything valuable to add to the conversation but the very existence of Woody Fucking Allen irritates the shit out of me. But not as much as the existence of people who make it possible for a piece of shit like Woody Allen to have a successful career.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 11, 2014, 06:22:00 pm
I actually enjoyed what stuff of his I have seen, and have thought him as funny.

But it doesn't matter.

I truly enjoyed Michael Jackson's music since I was 11 or so.

Buuut it does not matter.

Talent or no, that still comes down to personal taste, fuck those guys.

But I am not going to eat a delicious pie if it's loaded with cyanide.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 11, 2014, 06:29:44 pm
I have to admit that I tend to place Michael Jackson in a different category from people like Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. Not that I'm defending the things he did AT ALL. But it's easy to look at his life and his lack of agency through most of it and how his personal development was so horribly stunted and come to the conclusion that he really probably didn't view his actions as being wrong or even understand why other people thought they were wrong. Doesn't mean they weren't HORRIBLY HORRIBLY wrong, but I tend to view that more as "victim victimizes other victims" as opposed to "shitbag predator".

But now I wonder how much of that is just because Billie Jean has the sickest bassline ever.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 11, 2014, 06:35:21 pm
I would tend to agree, much like Britney Spears, he never had a chance.

But Britney nevet did anything like that, that we know.

Plus,

Quote
But now I wonder how much of that is just because Billie Jean has the sickest bassline ever.


Yup.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 11, 2014, 06:36:51 pm
If it helps, he didn't create that bassline, he just liked it, said he could dance to it, which is how his crew knew it was a winner.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Junkenstein on February 11, 2014, 06:41:29 pm
Just calling it now - Woody Allen will be the U.S version of Jimmy Saville.

He'll die, be venerated and then about a year later all the skeletons will leap out.

I can't recall offhand a major US celebrity being seriously punished for child abuse in the recent past. When this shit hits it's going to make the McCarthy hearings look fair and even-handed.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 11, 2014, 06:52:12 pm
Given that I don't pay for my media, I'm in a fortunate position to be able to separate the art from the artist. If I'd ever bought Thriller or Hanna and her Sisters I'd be feeling pretty fucking conflicted right now but, hey, I buy clothes and other consumer goods from companies that probably have a child slave or two somewhere in their production pipeline. These days who the fuck can tell?

Taking money out the equation we have a kiddie fiddler who just fiddles with kiddies on one hand and one who also creates beautiful, inspiring art on the other. Does the child molesting necessarily detract from the art? I'm not sure. I want to say yes but if it came out that Davinci was a pedo would the Mona Lisa be any less awesome?

Luckily we're not talking about beautiful inspiring art, we're talking a boring, dull, pseudo-intellectual whining snorefests. Yeah fuck Woody Allen movies - if you like them then you're a molester by proxy!
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 11, 2014, 07:03:44 pm
Yeah, I gotta wonder why people even like his crappy movies to begin with. And I've ALWAYS thought he was a creepy little sex abuser ever since the whole "Sorry, wife, I'm actually nailing our adopted daughter" thing.

THAT is something I've never been able to fathom, yet people will sit there and bald-faced try  to minimize and justify it. It's goddamn amazing.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Junkenstein on February 11, 2014, 07:09:18 pm
Err, about Da Vinci....

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=da+vinci+pederast&oq=da+vinc&aqs=chrome.1.69i59l3j69i57j0l2.3089j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 11, 2014, 07:10:37 pm
I have to admit that I tend to place Michael Jackson in a different category from people like Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. Not that I'm defending the things he did AT ALL. But it's easy to look at his life and his lack of agency through most of it and how his personal development was so horribly stunted and come to the conclusion that he really probably didn't view his actions as being wrong or even understand why other people thought they were wrong. Doesn't mean they weren't HORRIBLY HORRIBLY wrong, but I tend to view that more as "victim victimizes other victims" as opposed to "shitbag predator".

But now I wonder how much of that is just because Billie Jean has the sickest bassline ever.

This also goes back to the discussion about how much harm it does to demonize child molesters. Some of them are actually sociopaths and narcissists, sure, but most of them are just people who got damaged and fucked in the head to the point where they have weird, irrational, horrible compulsions they can't control. The fact that we demonize them makes their investment in HIDING those compulsions much deeper than their investment in getting help for them, and it complicates matters even more by making their victims more afraid to spill the beans as well. "If you tell they'll take me away and put me in jail forever" or "if you tell, Mommy will divorce me" is even scarier, as well as more plausible, for many children than "If you tell I'll kill you". Which is not as common a threat as many people believe it is. It's often the real consequences of telling that children are afraid of.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 11, 2014, 07:16:27 pm
Which is, as I have said before, yet another reason I wish people would think twice before saying things like "Child molesters should be put to death". The implicit message that sends to someone who has been molested is that what was done to them was tantamount to murder. That that is how much damage was done to them; it is deserving of the death penalty. An eye for an eye.

It is a very short step from there to Babylon Horuv's "if my daughter is ever raped I hope they kill her so she doesn't have to live with that".

It is, essentially, an implicit statement that someone who has been molested is better off dead.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 11, 2014, 07:19:17 pm
Yep. It's hard to find a space in my Bag O' Compassion for sexual predators but without it the problem never gets addressed proactively or effectively.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 11, 2014, 07:19:33 pm
Just calling it now - Woody Allen will be the U.S version of Jimmy Saville.

He'll die, be venerated and then about a year later all the skeletons will leap out.

I can't recall offhand a major US celebrity being seriously punished for child abuse in the recent past. When this shit hits it's going to make the McCarthy hearings look fair and even-handed.

I find this absolutely plausible. I am really interested in what Soon Yi, and their adopted children, will have to say about him after he's dead.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Junkenstein on February 11, 2014, 07:24:56 pm
I'm also guessing R. Kelly for the first proper jail sentence. Because fuck R. Kelly. 
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Salty on February 11, 2014, 07:29:34 pm
It comed down to a matter of advocacy.

For whom do you advocate? How much time and energy do you have. Many in the entertainment industry advocate for artists because MONEY.

Most of us shlubs try to advocate with those who we feel deserve sympathy.

There's no actual need for demonizing either way, but, monkeys,
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 11, 2014, 08:05:52 pm
Yep. It's hard to find a space in my Bag O' Compassion for sexual predators but without it the problem never gets addressed proactively or effectively.

I don't even see it as a matter for compassion. More a case of objective analysis. Cause and effect. Same way I see anything that people describe as "Evil". Evil is a fucking symptom. To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever cured measles by yelling at spots.   
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 11, 2014, 10:21:57 pm
I think that I view the entire idea of "compassion" as "the objective analysis that not adding to the shittiness of everything is better for everyone in the long run".
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Bu☆ns on May 11, 2016, 08:43:23 pm
https://www.yahoo.com/celebrity/father-woody-allen-danger-questions-unasked-guest-column-100415073.html

update, written by Ronan Farrow, Woody Allen and Mia Farrow's son.
Title: Re: This god damned Woody Allen thing,
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 05, 2016, 01:30:34 am
https://www.yahoo.com/celebrity/father-woody-allen-danger-questions-unasked-guest-column-100415073.html

update, written by Ronan Farrow, Woody Allen and Mia Farrow's son.

Wow, that is some powerful stuff. The guy is a good writer, and I'm glad he wrote that.