Justice

[the other anonymous]

Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

It's because it's always the right answer.

YAY ! FUCKING ME IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT ANSWER!

[The Wizard]

YAY ! FUCKING ME IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT ANSWER! Big grin

Ha! See? Wonderful.

[Golden Applesauce]

Justice is always symbolized by a set of scales.
Who is putting what on the scales?

More importantly:
Who or what is holding the scales?

Both of these variables are important because they give substance to an intangible concept, and also because they determine your parameters.

You made me think today.  Thanks.

[Golden Applesauce]

Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

In general, polls need a "nonsense" answer to be valid.  Real polls have some kind of "don't know / don't care / unsure" answer - the simple act of making a respondent choose one way or the other when they don't like either of the options biases the results.

[The Wizard]

That's why I add Fuck You. Well, that and for the humor.

[Golden Applesauce]

This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

[President Television]

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I like the way you think.
Of course, you have to make sure that the group you're in really does care about you, and that you're not just another component in a vast unfeeling mechanism. But I see what you're getting at. Really, it's a matter of balance between individualism and collectivism. Ideally, one would provide optimal contribution to a working society that one loves to be a part of while still retaining a sense of individual identity and independent thought.
Actually, fuck that. That's boring. You're boring. ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY! 

[President Television]

But really, I like the general idea, I just don't think one should become solely dedicated to the well-being of the group above all else. Which I think you addressed.

[LMNO]

I can understand why you snapped in the OP, but then again, the actions of Jake were entirely understandable.

If your ego is constantly hindered and warped by being picked on, it won't restore itself to health just because you removed the bully.  It will stay deformed until he makes deciscive steps to correct the problem within himself.  Because his ego is shaped to fit the Bully Game, he will keep playing it out, in whatever role he can find. 

Removing the pressure doesn't strenghthen the character.  The Justice you appear to be seeking comes from the core of every individual who starts acting like a biped, and stops playing out the same silly monkey games.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

Why so upset?  This is normal monkey behavior.  Jake gets his ass kicked by a bigger monkey, so he now has a drive to ensure that he isn't at the bottom of the pecking order, so he beats hell out of an even smaller monkey, to establish his place in the pack (This is how Southern aristocrats convinced poor Whites to fight to establish a permanent aristocracy in the South a couple of hundred years ago...they would not be on top, but they would be guaranteed not to be on the bottom).

This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

And where do you fit in?  You're using your slightly higher place in the pecking order to enforce your values with respect to the lesser monkeys.  Please note that this is not necessarily a bad thing, and is also perfectly normal.  In fact, the entire system is - in all primates - kept from turning into hell based on the fact that some of the stronger monkeys have values that are worth enforcing.

Justice isn't dead.  Justice just relies on the right monkey in the right place at the right time.  If I were you, I'd drag Jake aside and ask him what the fuck he was thinking (now that you obviously have his attention).  See if you can make Jake a better monkey.

[LMNO]

The question however, is whether "normal" is the desired behavior.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The question however, is whether "normal" is the desired behavior.

Normal is what you're going to get, LMNO.  The system will not change.  What people do WITHIN that system can be changed, if monkeys on top can be tricked or taught to do what's desired.

[LMNO]

A subtle but distressing difference, to be sure.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

A subtle but distressing difference, to be sure.

One of the few original ideas that RAW expressed that was worth a fuck is that humans fail to realize that they are primates, and their primate wiring causes people to act in ways that seem fucked up, when all we're doing is following 2 million+ years of programming.  Interestingly enough, the people complaining typically do the very same things, but don't see it because they're doing it automatically.

[LMNO]

Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".