What is Chi?

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I haven't seen the video, but is it possible that the "energy transference" guy just used suggestion to make the researcher believe that he was being pushed down? I mean, that's half of martial arts anyway -- if you intimidate your opponent into believing they've lost, you've pretty much won. That's why there's so much emphasis on yelling and looking badass. At least in my experience. I'm a black belt in shotokan, but I haven't done any in several years.

Half the battle is looking fierce. Unless you do chin-na or another pressure point form. Then, causing intense pain while seeming totally relaxed and flippant seems to be the big thing. When I practiced that, I was the one being demonstrated on, and it got to the point at which when the instructor seemed to make a more relaxed movement than usual, I responded as though I was in one of the most painful joint locks ever, before he even did anything.

[Kai]

If you're looking for technical biological explanations of measurable psychosomatic phenomenon, I'd recommend the book "The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing" by Ernest Rossi.

It's over my head, and often extremely technical which makes me think you'd get more out of it Kai. I'm less interested in how precisely this may work on a biological level than in the techniques and practical theory. I'd mail you my copy if you'd help break it down for us.

Net, You could just lend it to me when I'm in Portland in a month.

I didn't know you were coming! I'm stoked.

I hope it's not in between the 31st and the 5th of January though, because I'll be in Oakland.

If that's the case I'm sure Nigel could hand it off to you.

You, Telarus, and I could get together for a discussion.

I have a voice recorder too, so we could post or transcribe it for the forums should it be relevant or lulzy.

I'm not cool at all in person so don't get your hopes up. But yeah, it will prolly be the 12th or 14th to the 22nd. Something like that.

[Kai]

I haven't seen the video, but is it possible that the "energy transference" guy just used suggestion to make the researcher believe that he was being pushed down? I mean, that's half of martial arts anyway -- if you intimidate your opponent into believing they've lost, you've pretty much won. That's why there's so much emphasis on yelling and looking badass. At least in my experience. I'm a black belt in shotokan, but I haven't done any in several years.

Half the battle is looking fierce. Unless you do chin-na or another pressure point form. Then, causing intense pain while seeming totally relaxed and flippant seems to be the big thing. When I practiced that, I was the one being demonstrated on, and it got to the point at which when the instructor seemed to make a more relaxed movement than usual, I responded as though I was in one of the most painful joint locks ever, before he even did anything.

There was no yelling, there was no looking fierce. Everyone was cool as pie. No pain as far as I could see either.
It looked to me like the guy aplied force at just the right angle, point and amount.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Was there staring? Or, a glance right before the moment of impact?

[Kai]

Was there staring? Or, a glance right before the moment of impact?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtT03lzCuvA

Watch it and see for yourself.

[Elder Iptuous]

that was interesting, i guess.
I wonder if the 'samurai' would have been willing to allow quantitative measurements to be made in comparison to some fighter using 'brute force'?  it looked to me, like he just smacked him.  didn't really see anything that made me  .

[Kai]

that was interesting, i guess.
I wonder if the 'samurai' would have been willing to allow quantitative measurements to be made in comparison to some fighter using 'brute force'?  it looked to me, like he just smacked him.  didn't really see anything that made me  .

There wasn't any preparation. Both of those things movements without any excess force. The second one wasn't a punch, it was a push.
I have some ideas of how they may work.

The first push on the head, if you notice, was not a direct push down, nor a direct push back. It was a diagonal push on the head and it was a complex movement of the hand in several planes. This is similar to a video I found on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFjAq6V64g Watch the way the hand moves in the short complex arch that causes the other people to fall backwards. It required no force. Also, listen to the commentary, the acceptance and letting go is a linguistic attempt to describe the complex action.

The second one seemed more just a concept of whole body moving forward at once. In the slow motion you can see him lean in. The main movement is coming from the legs. I can easily push over a person much larger than myself if I use my whole body and I take them from their root of balance.

[fomenter]

tai chi being used in combat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4&feature=related

[Kai]

tai chi being used in combat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4&feature=related

I'm not sure whether to  or  .

[fomenter]

I    - the power of chi in action it struck me as funny...

[Mu]

Heyy, here's my views on ki/chi

I study karate and practice zazen (zen meditation) regularly. I see ki (chi) as less of a physical force and more of a means or tool with which to focus your mind totally on the task you are doing. Its amazing (and to a casual onlooker may seem supernatural) what you can do when your mind is totally focused on a specific thing (and it is harder than you think to do it). That means from the moment you start the move to the moment you finish not a single thought passes through your mind. That is extremely difficult but visualizing and "feeling" the ki running through your arm or whatever helps you to focus as it keeps your mind occupied.

When you don't focus it is easy to slip up on silly little things like activating the wrong muscle groups. That sounds ridiculous i know but if you take your basic punch as an example; we naturally tense up our biceps as we punch. As the triceps are used to extend the arm and the biceps are used to contract it again the biceps are actually working against your triceps and it results in a weaker punch. (It makes you feel like Bruce lee but it is like a machine with two motors trying to turn kogs in the opposite direction). Obviously this is a rookie error and you eventually stop doing it even if you don't focus but it makes for a good example and you experience similar, if more complex, problems as you progress in the martial arts.

For me this is the real application of ki in a fight situation. Simply to help you focus. But there are still those weird things that your not really sure whether to believe or not which throw my perception of ki out of the window a bit...

Check this out for an example of what confuses me and makes me want to hide in science's loving embrace:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC45kYb9Sjg

Argh 

Sorry i went on a bit there but it is a subject i have given allot of thought over the years.
Obviously these are just my views and I'm sure many other people experience ki/chi/qi/psy differently.

[fomenter]

don't apologize i like seeing this thread reactivate and new comments being made, especially by some one with knowledge on the subject..

[Mu]

Thankyou 

Its my first proper post really so I'm glad i could contribute in something i have a small bit of experience in

I enjoyed reading other peoples views as well, seems between you you have pretty much every school of thought on the subject covered  . Its a topic that people normally just blindly dismiss as stupid or adamantly say its real with no proper evidence either way.
Seems to be the way of the world at the moment, everythings either write or wrong, no one likes gray areas 

Cheers

[Richter]

I had a buddy at work who I'd often talk with about this.  He was fairly experienced in martial arts, had done some Reiki, and was an avid gamer.  I've done some martial arts too, and when discussing various things, I'd always try to attribute various effects of "Chi" to psychosomatic effects, physics tricks, etc.
His take was that, as if we were qualifiying ourselves as D+D 3rd ed. characters, I was trying to explain a WIS (Wisdom) based skill in INT (Intelligence) terms.  The effect, the mechanism, the manifestation can certainly be described in empirical terms, but the act of producing it required a certain state of mind or focus that you can only really get internally.  Nothing weird or mystical, more like riding a bike.  You can never TELL someone, or write down how to ride a bike.  You can't consciously direct every motion to balance a bike either.  Everyone has to do it and get the intuitive sense for it themselves.   

[Mu]

That is a nice one. Haven't heard that before.
I can see how that would work

nice