Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

[Epimetheus]

Good thing we have all that racism cleaned up, here in America.

You know, when I was in elementary school, I distinctly remember asking my sister when she was writing some paper on racism, "Wait, but people aren't racist now, right?" 

[Bruno]

While I'm still holding my neutral position, and believe it's plausible that Martin overreacted to an overzealous Zimmerman, and initiated violence, the shitnuts going around calling Martin "thug", "goon", "etc." are really starting to grate my cheese.

How do you overreact to being stalked by someone with a gun?

Depends on what you mean by "with a gun" and what, exactly, makes it "stalking".

If he was carrying the gun legally, not brandishing it, then attacking him because he wanted to talk was not the right thing to do.

[Epimetheus]

IIRC, Zimmerman was in casual clothing, not a uniform. Whether "carrying it legally" or "brandishing it" (whatever the difference is), as long as it's visible (or even if it's not), the target (apologies for that term) would feel in danger, no?

[Cain]

Here's a definition of stalking: continuing to follow Martin once ordered not to by the police dispatcher.

[Bruno]

Here's a definition of stalking: continuing to follow Martin once ordered not to by the police dispatcher.

The dispatcher tells him "we don't need you to do that.", and he replies "ok" at about 2 minutes in to the call.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-04-20/justice/us_florida-zimmerman-timeline_1_gated-community-gunshot-martin-punches?_s=PM:JUSTICE

To me, it sounds like he continued following him for about 10-15 seconds after that, and it doesn't sound like he was running at full sprint.

How far do you think he followed him after that point?

[Cain]

Well, that's not what Martin's girlfriend says.

Crump said that during the final phone call with his girlfriend, who was back home in Miami, Martin told her that a stranger was following him, according to an affidavit she recorded. Martin had then tried unsuccessfully to get away from the stranger.

"He says: 'Oh, he's right behind me. He's right behind me again,'" Crump said the girl told him. "She says: 'Run.' He says: 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast.'

She then heard Martin saying "Why are you following me" and another voice saying "What are you doing here?" She told Crump they both repeated themselves, and then she thinks she heard Zimmerman push Martin "because his voice changes, like something interrupted his speech." She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off, Crump said.

When police arrived a minute later, at 7.17pm, Martin was lying dead in the street.

I mean, gosh, who would consider that to be stalking behaviour?

Have you actually done any research at all into this case?  Or are you just spouting stupid contrarianism here to seem edgy?

[Luna]

Even if we discount the girlfriend's testimony (and a court won't) as biased...

Just look at a map of the area.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

Zimmerman had to follow Martin up the sidewalk between the houses in order for the shooting to occur where it did.

[Bruno]

I haven't found enough information to come to a conclusion, no, but I am leaning mostly in the general direction of Zimmerman being responsible to some degree.

I mean, that is the side I want to be on, anyway. I just have this nagging sense of some obligation to try to be all impartial and junk until I see something more conclusive than anything I've seen so far. Maybe I'm trying too hard on that. I don't know.

I can tell from his voice that Zimmerman's demeanor isn't that of a friendly neighbor, waving and smiling. I'm sure he was giving Martin the stink eye. To which a natural response would be "What the fuck do you want, asshole?" or something like it.

If Zimmerman did shove Martin, then I have no doubt that he is culpable for creating the situation.

[Bruno]

Even if we discount the girlfriend's testimony (and a court won't) as biased...

Just look at a map of the area.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

Zimmerman had to follow Martin up the sidewalk between the houses in order for the shooting to occur where it did.

Thanks. I could use some good sources like that.

I've spent most of my time devoted this issue, so far, to trolling pro-Zimmerman douchebags rather than doing actual research. That's mainly consisted of sarcastically concocting terrible arguments to their terrible arguments, which was fun, but didn't make me any smarter.

[Luna]

That map may be what convicts Zimmerman...   along with the bit of Zimmerman's story that "he tried to take my gun, so I had to shoot him."  IF Martin DID try to take the gun... how did he know it was there?  Zimmerman had a Kal-Tec PF9.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/

That isn't a cannon, thing weighs less than a pound.  I haven't seen any reports on how Zimmerman was carrying it, but if he had it "concealed," I don't see how, in any scuffle that was over in minutes, Martin could have found it and atempted to take it.

[Elder Iptuous]

That map may be what convicts Zimmerman...   along with the bit of Zimmerman's story that "he tried to take my gun, so I had to shoot him."  IF Martin DID try to take the gun... how did he know it was there?  Zimmerman had a Kal-Tec PF9.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/

That isn't a cannon, thing weighs less than a pound.  I haven't seen any reports on how Zimmerman was carrying it, but if he had it "concealed," I don't see how, in any scuffle that was over in minutes, Martin could have found it and atempted to take it.

that gun is specifically made for concealed carry with its small frame, light weight, and single stack magazine.
even though it is good for this, and doesn't print as easily as a larger gun, i can see how its presence would become quickly obvious in a close scuffle.
on the other hand, i would imagine if i got in a close scuffle with an unknown 'assailant', i would quickly (attempt to) draw anyways.
If i ever shot someone, there are stock phrases that i would stick to.  "i feared for my life" (or the life of a loved one) and "i shot in order to stop the attack"
although "he tried to take my gun" seems unnecessarily specific and likely to be refuted if not true, it seems like the same type of statement.

ETA: also, if i was in a scuffle with someone that had a pistol, i would certainly try to take it as well!

[Triple Zero]

Here's a definition of stalking: continuing to follow Martin once ordered not to by the police dispatcher.

which can be heard in this recording of the 911 call:

The CNN article links a PDF in which the filenames of the recorded 911 calls are mentioned, googling those turns up one of them, which is apparently Zimmerman's initial call to 911: http://soundcloud.com/geedee215/20120571656-s13pir
I couldn't find the other one, this one's before any shooting occurs, but includes Zimmerman complaining about how these fuckers always get away, and the 911 guy telling him he shouldn't follow him.

unfortunately I haven't been able to locate any recordings of things that happened after. I'm not sure if they're made public, even.

[navkat]

I don't even know what to think anymore. All I can hope for is a smart Jury.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

People are over-analyzing this shit.

Zimmerman created and then escalated - against police advice - a dangerous and unnecessary situation with reckless disregard for life.  A life was lost.

It's a murder.

[navkat]

People are over-analyzing this shit.

Zimmerman created and then escalated - against police advice - a dangerous and unnecessary situation with reckless disregard for life.  A life was lost.

It's a murder.

That's how I see it. I just hope that fact isn't obfuscated by the creation of "reasonable doubt" with regards to provocation.