Discourse 24: Monsters

[Trollax]

There's no such thing as evil in this world. I've seen into the monster, it's not a monster. Just another human being who was mistreated, left out, abused. Another person who needed compassion at a critical moment and got none. Just people, in pain, living out nightmares, committing gross attrocities, in some twisted way, trying to make it better by making it worse. Trying to transmute their life, to turn lead into gold.
But when we cross that line, we must deal wirth the consequences, we must be dealt with, but dealt with as we are. Not as monsters, as subhuman, but as the people we are. People with problems. People just the same.
The real evil lies not in the poersecuted, but in the persecutors, memetically labeling people forever. Is an alcoholic forever an alcoholic? If so, doesn't that mean that we all are? Somewhere in each of us, we could be? From Pohl pot and Hitler right down to Self-mutilation, it's all there inside us. The "dark" side of human potential, but it's not dark, it just is.
Am I forever violent if I hit a haemopheliac in the nose at age 8? Age 12? Age 20? I did. 8 years old and all the compassion drained out of their faces when they found out. But could they honestly say that they would never do the same? They don't know what went on in my brain, what lead up to it, what lead away from it. Doesn't that matter? There doesn't have to be an excuse, a pardon or any kind of justification. But who ever asked why?
As I got older, and I committed other transggressions, the disapproval was more severe. I was "stupid." I was "hopeless." I was "letting my emotions get the better of me." And yet we all do at times, and when we do there is no compassion for us. We reserve our sympathy, our understanding, for children. We don't expect them to fully understand. Sometimes as adults we don't fully understand, they're "immature." But we're all still growing up. Our bodies grow old and die, but we're always children. Every moment is new, and strange, and confusing, no matter how familiar we are with the scenario.
We're not always thankful for the chance, sometimes we still act out that drama. Trying to make it better by making it worse. It doesn't change the way things are. That we're all human, that we're all worthy, somehow.

~Trollax~

[Out of the Wasteland]

There's no such thing as evil in this world. I've seen into the monster, it's not a monster. Just another human being who was mistreated, left out, abused.

One word.  Just ONE word.

Auschwitz.

Theory discounted.

[Bella]

Yup. People on this forum call me evil and we joke around about it,
but all kidding aside.....there is real evil in this world.

Which is not to say that I think for one minute the mistakes you, or
anyone else, made as children can in anyway be construed as evil.

[Guido Finucci]

Auschwitz.
Theory discounted.

Not at all. You seem to be under the impresion that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity because they thought it would be fun.

[Trollax]

There's no such thing as evil in this world. I've seen into the monster, it's not a monster. Just another human being who was mistreated, left out, abused.

One word.  Just ONE word.

Auschwitz.

Theory discounted.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

There's something you've all got to try some time. It's called Neckering. It's based around Necker's cube. A drawing of a cube net that can be either facing one way or the other. In idea space you turn your mind around an issue from one side, to the other. I never said you could justify and explain away the things that people do, but if you can come to the place where you can see how and why they happened, how they were justified and rationalised, you can move past them. Believe me, I have enough of my own experiences to discount this theory.
In the end you end up seeing everything you can become, what could have happened if you had reacted a second later, experienced that moment slightly differently, it could be you pulling the trigger.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

[Trollax]

Auschwitz.
Theory discounted.

Not at all. You seem to be under the impresion that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity because they thought it would be fun.

Ouch.

[Out of the Wasteland]

Auschwitz.
Theory discounted.

Not at all. You seem to be under the impresion that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity because they thought it would be fun.

It doesn't matter what their motives were.

It was evil, so were they.

[Bella]

I just want to say: Howard

I know there's evil because I've seen it.

[Out of the Wasteland]

There's no such thing as evil in this world. I've seen into the monster, it's not a monster. Just another human being who was mistreated, left out, abused.

One word.  Just ONE word.

Auschwitz.

Theory discounted.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

There's something you've all got to try some time. It's called Neckering. It's based around Necker's cube. A drawing of a cube net that can be either facing one way or the other. In idea space you turn your mind around an issue from one side, to the other. I never said you could justify and explain away the things that people do, but if you can come to the place where you can see how and why they happened, how they were justified and rationalised, you can move past them. Believe me, I have enough of my own experiences to discount this theory.
In the end you end up seeing everything you can become, what could have happened if you had reacted a second later, experienced that moment slightly differently, it could be you pulling the trigger.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

Nonsense.  That's moral relevance taken to an extreme.

Tell you what, Trollaxe.  Find a surviving death camp inmate, and tell them how, that on some moral level, what happened to them was not Evil.  Note the capital E.

I then suggest you duck.  Those old folks can be deceptively quick.

[Trollax]

I just want to say: Howard

I know there's evil because I've seen it.

Funnily enough, so have I. We call it different things. We deal with it in different ways.

"If you have a staff I will give you one. If you do not have a staff, I will take it from you."

[Bella]

I just want to say: Howard

I know there's evil because I've seen it.

Funnily enough, so have I. We call it different things. We deal with it in different ways.

"If you have a staff I will give you one. If you do not have a staff, I will take it from you."

Call it what you will, you and I will never agree on this one.

[Trollax]

There's no such thing as evil in this world. I've seen into the monster, it's not a monster. Just another human being who was mistreated, left out, abused.

One word.  Just ONE word.

Auschwitz.

Theory discounted.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

There's something you've all got to try some time. It's called Neckering. It's based around Necker's cube. A drawing of a cube net that can be either facing one way or the other. In idea space you turn your mind around an issue from one side, to the other. I never said you could justify and explain away the things that people do, but if you can come to the place where you can see how and why they happened, how they were justified and rationalised, you can move past them. Believe me, I have enough of my own experiences to discount this theory.
In the end you end up seeing everything you can become, what could have happened if you had reacted a second later, experienced that moment slightly differently, it could be you pulling the trigger.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

Nonsense.  That's moral relevance taken to an extreme.

Tell you what, Trollaxe.  Find a surviving death camp inmate, and tell them how, that on some moral level, what happened to them was not Evil.  Note the capital E.

I then suggest you duck.  Those old folks can be deceptively quick.

One word.

Palestine.

Rebuttal discounted.

[Out of the Wasteland]

I just want to say: Howard

I know there's evil because I've seen it.

Funnily enough, so have I. We call it different things. We deal with it in different ways.

"If you have a staff I will give you one. If you do not have a staff, I will take it from you."

When did discordianism descend into sophistry?

[Out of the Wasteland]

There's no such thing as evil in this world. I've seen into the monster, it's not a monster. Just another human being who was mistreated, left out, abused.

One word.  Just ONE word.

Auschwitz.

Theory discounted.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

There's something you've all got to try some time. It's called Neckering. It's based around Necker's cube. A drawing of a cube net that can be either facing one way or the other. In idea space you turn your mind around an issue from one side, to the other. I never said you could justify and explain away the things that people do, but if you can come to the place where you can see how and why they happened, how they were justified and rationalised, you can move past them. Believe me, I have enough of my own experiences to discount this theory.
In the end you end up seeing everything you can become, what could have happened if you had reacted a second later, experienced that moment slightly differently, it could be you pulling the trigger.

Hard to accept yes.
I still don't believe in evil.

Nonsense.  That's moral relevance taken to an extreme.

Tell you what, Trollaxe.  Find a surviving death camp inmate, and tell them how, that on some moral level, what happened to them was not Evil.  Note the capital E.

I then suggest you duck.  Those old folks can be deceptively quick.

One word.

Palestine.

Rebuttal discounted.

At what point did I say that the Jews were angels?

I did not.

What I said was that the camps were Evil.  In turn, they have engendered a "never again" mentality that has bred more evil.

Evil feeds on itself, and prospers when good men (and women) do nothing.  Moral relevance is just another rationalization for doing nothing.

[Trollax]

I just want to say: Howard

I know there's evil because I've seen it.

Funnily enough, so have I. We call it different things. We deal with it in different ways.

"If you have a staff I will give you one. If you do not have a staff, I will take it from you."

When did discordianism descend into sophistry?

The minute you disagreed with something someone said. Oh, wait, but that's just moral relativism taken to the extreme. I'm not actually getting at the "truth."
*Has a heart attack from laughing*