Persistence VS Hope

[Phox]

But the thing is, according to Hesiod's Works and Days, for some unexplained reason Hope didn't actually come out of Pandora's jar when it was opened: it was in fact the only thing that stayed in there. This suggests that while the ancient Greeks may have considered hope an evil, it had a rather special status. Also, the myth of Pandora seems nothing but a patriarchal sanitation meme, propaganda against clever and wilful women... how is it relevant?

I mentioned the Pandora myth as an example of how the ancient Greeks (at least during Hesiod's time) viewed hope.  The fact that the story is ultimately a tale of how women are the cause of all the problems in the world doesn't matter.

Here's the thing, though. In Hesiod, Pandora is not "LOL First Woman to exist ruined everything for everyone forever"(unlike some silly religions). Actually, Hesiod pegs Pandora as the first of a certain "kind" or as much as I hate the word "race" of women, not women as a whole. This kind of woman is, evidently, spiteful and deceptive, as opposed to "clever and willful". Strong, intelligent, even "willful" women, were often viewed positively by the Greeks, but of course, there are many conflicting sources, so it is rather difficult to say one way or another in broad strokes.

Now, on to the OP.

Alty, I completely agree with you. Hope is a... a rather unproductive frame of mind. At least insofar as "I hope that one day...". While the connotations of the word are hotly debated, I don't necessarily think that "I hope to get a Ph. D, and I'm going to do my damnedest to pull it off" is a negative mindset. when something is not fully in one's power, or when doing your absolute best still is not a guarantee of success, "hope" is not a dirty word. "Here's hoping that I do better this year, while maintaining the same practices as the last," "Here's hoping that this illness will go away on its own, and not do permanent damage, because I really, really don't want to go to the doctor," "here's hoping I can stop binge eating and lose some weight," etc. not so much, ya dig?

[Aucoq]

You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!

God wasn't always a great guy.  He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest.  His only job was to protect a single desert tribe.  And boy did He love it.  Butchering his tribe's enemies.  Killing firstborn sons.  Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire.  Turning people into salt.  Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles.  Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point.  To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.

Then something happened.  The Romans marched on ancient Judea.  The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire.  The tribe had thought God was going to protect them.  They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do.  But He was nowhere to be seen.  He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did.  God had flown the coop.

A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh.  But He had changed.  He was no longer filled with hate.  He was now filled with love.  He no longer liked to smash his enemies.  He now wanted to give them a hug.  He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough.  He now believed everyone deserved mercy.  God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.

What had happened?

There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being.  You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect.  Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try.  It takes practice, is what I'm saying.

But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself.  Look at it this way.  When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say?  He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory.  Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?

What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show.  And how would He practice such a thing?  He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course.  A test run.  So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up.  But something went wrong.  While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging.  The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger.  Then it stopped.  The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.

Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child.  He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.

God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan.  This plan had a new goal in mind.  You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts.  Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger.  With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power.  More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes.  And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely.  God wanted to start His own franchise.  A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food.  But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity. 

Of course, even that plan was flawed.  While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans.  So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world.  It turns out they were a bit bitter.  And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.

As for God's firstborn son?  Nobody knows what happened to him.  Not even God Himself.  Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead.  Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place.  But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing.  Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner?  Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult?  Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look?  We may never know.

[LMNO]

You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!

God wasn't always a great guy.  He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest.  His only job was to protect a single desert tribe.  And boy did He love it.  Butchering his tribe's enemies.  Killing firstborn sons.  Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire.  Turning people into salt.  Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles.  Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point.  To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.

Then something happened.  The Romans marched on ancient Judea.  The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire.  The tribe had thought God was going to protect them.  They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do.  But He was nowhere to be seen.  He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did.  God had flown the coop.

A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh.  But He had changed.  He was no longer filled with hate.  He was now filled with love.  He no longer liked to smash his enemies.  He now wanted to give them a hug.  He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough.  He now believed everyone deserved mercy.  God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.

What had happened?

There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being.  You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect.  Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try.  It takes practice, is what I'm saying.

But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself.  Look at it this way.  When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say?  He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory.  Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?

What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show.  And how would He practice such a thing?  He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course.  A test run.  So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up.  But something went wrong.  While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging.  The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger.  Then it stopped.  The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.

Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child.  He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.

God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan.  This plan had a new goal in mind.  You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts.  Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger.  With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power.  More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes.  And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely.  God wanted to start His own franchise.  A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food.  But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity. 

Of course, even that plan was flawed.  While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans.  So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world.  It turns out they were a bit bitter.  And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.

As for God's firstborn son?  Nobody knows what happened to him.  Not even God Himself.  Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead.  Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place.  But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing.  Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner?  Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult?  Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look?  We may never know.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!

God wasn't always a great guy.  He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest.  His only job was to protect a single desert tribe.  And boy did He love it.  Butchering his tribe's enemies.  Killing firstborn sons.  Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire.  Turning people into salt.  Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles.  Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point.  To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.

Then something happened.  The Romans marched on ancient Judea.  The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire.  The tribe had thought God was going to protect them.  They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do.  But He was nowhere to be seen.  He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did.  God had flown the coop.

A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh.  But He had changed.  He was no longer filled with hate.  He was now filled with love.  He no longer liked to smash his enemies.  He now wanted to give them a hug.  He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough.  He now believed everyone deserved mercy.  God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.

What had happened?

There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being.  You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect.  Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try.  It takes practice, is what I'm saying.

But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself.  Look at it this way.  When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say?  He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory.  Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?

What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show.  And how would He practice such a thing?  He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course.  A test run.  So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up.  But something went wrong.  While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging.  The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger.  Then it stopped.  The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.

Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child.  He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.

God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan.  This plan had a new goal in mind.  You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts.  Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger.  With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power.  More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes.  And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely.  God wanted to start His own franchise.  A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food.  But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity. 

Of course, even that plan was flawed.  While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans.  So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world.  It turns out they were a bit bitter.  And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.

As for God's firstborn son?  Nobody knows what happened to him.  Not even God Himself.  Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead.  Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place.  But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing.  Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner?  Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult?  Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look?  We may never know.

WOW.   

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Thread split by request.

[Salty]

Thanks.

Before I wrote the OP, I knew it would come down to definitions, so I checked wikipedia and found:

Hope is the emotional state which promotes the belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Despair is the opposite of hope.

This just confirmed that, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Except, I suppose I'm arguing that it is more often than not a FORCED emotional state and that when it is overtly forced it is nothing but bad.

This thread is actually a great example.

I don't continue to post threads on PD.com because I hope it will garner some kudos or lead to an intriguing conversation. It often does, but I certainly won't count on it. If the thread gets derailed, if a thousand threads get derailed, it will not stop me from posting because I do so for its own sake.

Maybe I'm thinking of a Buddhist sense of non-attachment. I can enjoy posting because I have no hope it will turn into anything.

[Salty]

You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!

God wasn't always a great guy.  He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest.  His only job was to protect a single desert tribe.  And boy did He love it.  Butchering his tribe's enemies.  Killing firstborn sons.  Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire.  Turning people into salt.  Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles.  Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point.  To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.

Then something happened.  The Romans marched on ancient Judea.  The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire.  The tribe had thought God was going to protect them.  They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do.  But He was nowhere to be seen.  He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did.  God had flown the coop.

A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh.  But He had changed.  He was no longer filled with hate.  He was now filled with love.  He no longer liked to smash his enemies.  He now wanted to give them a hug.  He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough.  He now believed everyone deserved mercy.  God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.

What had happened?

There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being.  You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect.  Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try.  It takes practice, is what I'm saying.

But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself.  Look at it this way.  When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say?  He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory.  Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?

What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show.  And how would He practice such a thing?  He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course.  A test run.  So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up.  But something went wrong.  While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging.  The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger.  Then it stopped.  The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.

Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child.  He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.

God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan.  This plan had a new goal in mind.  You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts.  Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger.  With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power.  More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes.  And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely.  God wanted to start His own franchise.  A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food.  But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity. 

Of course, even that plan was flawed.  While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans.  So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world.  It turns out they were a bit bitter.  And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.

As for God's firstborn son?  Nobody knows what happened to him.  Not even God Himself.  Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead.  Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place.  But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing.  Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner?  Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult?  Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look?  We may never know.

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

[Dildo Argentino]

I agree, it's completely wow.

[Aucoq]

WOW.   

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

Thank you, guys! 

And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty.  Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

WOW.   

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

Thank you, guys! 

And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty.  Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.

I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. 

[Aucoq]

WOW.   

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

Thank you, guys! 

And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty.  Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.

I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. 

Thank you too!

I don't know why your post would be moved to the holist thread.  I can't imagine anyone mistaking you for him. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

WOW.   

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

Thank you, guys! 

And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty.  Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.

I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. 

Thank you too!

I don't know why your post would be moved to the holist thread.  I can't imagine anyone mistaking you for him. 

I know, right? It's really weird. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

WOW.   

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

Thank you, guys! 

And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty.  Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.

I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. 

Sorry, that's my bad.  I was shoveling out the poomp for Alty yesterday, and I became confused at the sheer number of Hungarians.  I almost split Alty's posts out, too, and he started the thread.

I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO BE AT MY BEST WHEN SURROUNDED BY (SUPPOSEDLY) FORMER COMMUNISTS.  I SHOVEL THE POOMP.  THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY.  NONE OF THIS RUSSIAN SHIT IS MY JOB.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

WOW.   

I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.

Thank you, guys! 

And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty.  Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.

I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. 

Sorry, that's my bad.  I was shoveling out the poomp for Alty yesterday, and I became confused at the sheer number of Hungarians.  I almost split Alty's posts out, too, and he started the thread.

I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO BE AT MY BEST WHEN SURROUNDED BY (SUPPOSEDLY) FORMER COMMUNISTS.  I SHOVEL THE POOMP.  THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY.  NONE OF THIS RUSSIAN SHIT IS MY JOB.

IS OK, COMRADE.