Discuss libertarianism for the Nth time

[Cain]

It must just me then who's tired of seeing the same argument, with the same people, making the same points, influencing exactly no-one because all the participants are set in their ways, in thread after thread.

Later then.  You all enjoy recycling your posts.

[Jenne]

I apologize for enjoying what must be a boring discussion to some of you.

I didn't mean to imply anything, sorry.  It's not boring, if only because each new discussion of it brings up more points on the original points...like your Merck example (which was awesome, btw).

I just know there was also a very lengthy and protracted discussion earlier in subforum that was actually very much to the point.

But, meh, I've overstayed myself itt.  *moving on*

[Doktor Howl]

Where were we?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There are Free Markets... they're also known as Black Markets...

Until someone murders you for your market share.  Or simply forces you to cough up a chunk of your profits.

It's still a free market... an entirely Free Market. And as part of that Freedom, your own protection is your own responsibility.

Free doesn't mean Utopia.

[Doktor Howl]

There are Free Markets... they're also known as Black Markets...

Until someone murders you for your market share.  Or simply forces you to cough up a chunk of your profits.

It's still a free market... an entirely Free Market. And as part of that Freedom, your own protection is your own responsibility.

Free doesn't mean Utopia.

So, being extorted is a free market?

Okay.

I don't see any advantage whatsoever to this free market, then.  I have no urge to live in Somalia.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There are Free Markets... they're also known as Black Markets...

Until someone murders you for your market share.  Or simply forces you to cough up a chunk of your profits.

It's still a free market... an entirely Free Market. And as part of that Freedom, your own protection is your own responsibility.

Free doesn't mean Utopia.

So, being extorted is a free market?

Being protected from Extortion is in fact a control ON the market.

Okay.

I don't see any advantage whatsoever to this free market, then.  I have no urge to live in Somalia.

Controlled markets offer some security and protection in exchange for less Freedom. Black markets, or anarchic markets (like Somalia) provide total freedom and no protection. That was the point of my comment, not that it was desirable, only that 'free markets' exist.

[Doktor Howl]

Controlled markets offer some security and protection in exchange for less Freedom. Black markets, or anarchic markets (like Somalia) provide total freedom and no protection. That was the point of my comment, not that it was desirable, only that 'free markets' exist.

Nonsense.  Living in constant fear, and being at the mercy of the strongest isn't freedom, it's a nightmarish version of feudalism.

[hooplala]

Where is it written that freedom isn't frightening?  There's no security blanket in freedom.

[Doktor Howl]

Where is it written that freedom isn't frightening?

Of course it is (frightening).  So are other things.

But "unofficial" feudalism is not freedom.  It's frightening, too, but has none of the advantages of freedom.

Fact:  Put 99% of anarchists/minarchists in the world they think they want, and they'll start setting up a government the moment they look around them.  Or they'll just become slaves.

Fact:  99% of anarchists/minarchists think they're the 1% that will thrive in that situation.

[hooplala]

Good point.

[Doktor Howl]

Good point.

Semi-related true story:  When I was just a little girl, some skinny stoner was ranting at me at a party that the strong should be able to take what they want, by virtue of being strong.  I thought about this for a moment and, having a head full of rum and annoyance at his shrill shit, punched his lights out and took his cigarettes.

How free was he?  Did he have the fruits of his labor, or did I?

[Elder Iptuous]

There has never been a free market, Iptuous.  It's a fantasy, like communism.

So is world peace.  should we not aim for it though?

Also, i would like to disagree with Rat that having extortion being controlled by the govt. is an oppression on the free market.  extortion, and fraud and shit is criminal, and the govt. should crack down on that.  that doesn't make the market less free...
further, i would say that using the black markets as an example of an existing free market is unfortunate, because there could be a free market that is in the light of day where the protection of govt. against fraud and extortion and shit is available, but it's just not set up that way...  

Also i would point out to Cain, if he is fibbing about not following this thread anymore, that i have in fact incrementally changed my political and economic views over the past couple years that i have been here, and it is in part due to these rehashed and same-old, same-old threads....
so, i'm glad some people are willing to stick it out on a topic that i find interesting...

[hooplala]

Good point.

Semi-related true story:  When I was just a little girl, some skinny stoner was ranting at me at a party that the strong should be able to take what they want, by virtue of being strong.  I thought about this for a moment and, having a head full of rum and annoyance at his shrill shit, punched his lights out and took his cigarettes.

How free was he?  Did he have the fruits of his labor, or did I?

Sounds like the satanic philosophy... 

My view would be that in that situation he was still free.  Free doesn't mean safe.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Controlled markets offer some security and protection in exchange for less Freedom. Black markets, or anarchic markets (like Somalia) provide total freedom and no protection. That was the point of my comment, not that it was desirable, only that 'free markets' exist.

Nonsense.  Living in constant fear, and being at the mercy of the strongest isn't freedom, it's a nightmarish version of feudalism.

Why do you think that total freedom would be a positive thing? I'm not arguing that its a utopia... only that its a Free Market with no government controls (for or against the 'capitalist'). If a Capitalist wants to do business with no laws governing the business... then that means no laws... either for good or ill. However, very few capitalists would actually WANT a totally free market (no matter what they might whine about on Faux News or while licking their copy of Atlas Shrugged). Most Capitalists/Investors/Businesses WANT legal protection for themselves and thus its only fair that the market includes legal protection for their clients/customers. That's the core of the issue with Libertarian thought IMO.

Now, from a philosophical standpoint, a truly free nation of people would have a voluntary choice of markets, but that choice would come with consequences.
So in my fantasy world example here... we would have two markets in the US, one market regulated by the social system in place (aka government) and a 'Free Market' which is unregulated AND unprotected by the social system. A business wouldn't be FORCED to follow the socially agreed upon rules, but they would not have the benefits of the socially agreed upon rules.

If you are in the regulated market and Guido tries to strong arm you, you have cops, the SEC, the Justice Dept etc to help you. If you're in a Free Market and Guido tries to strong arm you, you better have a stronger arm than Guido.

I (and I think most people) would prefer regulated protection in exchange for regulated freedom.

[Doktor Howl]

There has never been a free market, Iptuous.  It's a fantasy, like communism.

So is world peace.  should we not aim for it though?

For which?  Communism?

Also, i would like to disagree with Rat that having extortion being controlled by the govt. is an oppression on the free market.  extortion, and fraud and shit is criminal, and the govt. should crack down on that.  that doesn't make the market less free...

Yep.  You can't have freedom without laws, and laws mean regulation.