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i mean, pardon my english but this, the life i'm living is ww1 trench warfare.

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Masks

Started by Nephew Twiddleton, October 17, 2012, 05:30:00 AM

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Don Coyote

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on October 19, 2012, 05:24:02 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on October 19, 2012, 05:18:50 AM
Quote from: American Jackal on October 19, 2012, 05:14:21 AM
How does this fit in with not confusing the map for the territory?

The idea is still amorphous, as far as I'm concerned, but as I see it the idea that the projection of persona is not necessarily identical to the personality.

Or further, while you can have a pretty damn accurate map, you cannot have a mask that is not distorted in some way. Every mask, regardless of how many different masks can be made of the same person, will be a caricature, some grotesque, some idealized. But all of them have an inversion. The idealized masks have the blueprint for a grotesque counterpart on the concave side (for the narcissistic) and the grotesque masks have the blueprint for the idealized on the concave (for the perpetually self loathing).


Hmmm...

I hadn't thought of that before, but I like it.



How does this sound?

Everything you look at is not the thing you are looking at, even yourself. As you look at the territory you make a map. When you look at your face, you make a mask.

Or maybe they are two different metaphors for two different concepts that aren't related.

tyrannosaurus vex

I think maps are for getting to know what's around you. Masks are different, they're for broadcasting who or what you are. Maps are discovery, masks are communication (or, one kind of communication, anyway).
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Nephew Twiddleton

Masks are who you think you are (at that particular moment) and what you want others to think you are (at that particular moment).

Masks are interchangeable, but whatever the mask communicates to the outside world, and your conscious mind (ie, the role that you are in at the time), the rest of your being is written on the dark side. And on the dark side of the mask, there are always a few words that you will never see on the visible side of any of the masks tailored to the wearer.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

Further, some of the things that are consistently on the dark side of the mask, you might not be consciously aware of, either by choice, or inability to see. But they are there. And a part of you knows it.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

tyrannosaurus vex

Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Nephew Twiddleton

And ultimately that is why you can never not wear a mask in the presence of another. There are things written on the other side that you don't want others to read, and maybe you don't want to read yourself. So when you are alone and you take off the mask, you naturally cast it aside, and try not to read it.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: V3X on October 19, 2012, 05:53:13 AM
I need examples.

Ok. So, say you're a closet homosexual, and further, that you refuse to accept that you are gay.

On the back side of each mask that you own, there's a big red "FAG" written right on the forehead. It says fag instead of gay because it is something that you don't like about yourself. You can't admit to yourself that you are gay, and as a result, only have masks that project ubermasculinity or disinterest in relationships.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Bu🤠ns

#67
I think that a mask only really applies in two situations.  If we're trying to fool ourselves into thinking that we're something other than what is happening right now in the moment.  You have history and memory and they're important too, of course...but I suspect only relatively so. 

The other time is when we're around others.  I think that some of us might, in varying degrees and at different times,  change our behavior based upon who is currently in the environment.

I like the idea of resting in that undefinable place behind the mask where there's nothing in me that keeps you from having to wear a mask in order to relate with me. 

ETA: I just watched that TED talk--- LOL YOU COVERED THIS ALREADY HAHAHA  :lulz:

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Bu☆ns on October 19, 2012, 07:08:22 AM
I think that a mask only really applies in two situations.  If we're trying to fool ourselves into thinking that we're something other than what is happening right now in the moment.  You have history and memory and they're important too, of course...but I suspect only relatively so. 

The other time is when we're around others.  I think that some of us might, in varying degrees and at different times,  change our behavior based upon who is currently in the environment.

I like the idea of resting in that undefinable place behind the mask where there's nothing in me that keeps you from having to wear a mask in order to relate with me. 

ETA: I just watched that TED talk--- LOL YOU COVERED THIS ALREADY HAHAHA  :lulz:

Right.

But on the other side of the mask is a bunch of shit that's shouting at you, but you can't hear it until you take off the mask, look inside it, and then look at yourself honestly in the mirror.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on October 19, 2012, 02:07:41 AM
Once upon a time in a city on the river there lived Humble Lady Ermine and the young Queen Gogira.  Queen Gogira Pennyworth, Dweller in the Sinking Lands, had come to the city from the swamplands to the west, and there she learned the ways of the Goddess: of Jailbreaking and of Barstools, of Grids and Keeping Your Mouth Shut. These things she shared with Humble Lady Ermine, who was in her own lazy way a conduit for strangeness, and a protectress of the slimy things.

And so it was for many months that they lived together in the house of Lady Ermine, and Queen Gogira said unto her hostess "do you even notice the masks you wear?"
"I wear no mask," insisted Lady Ermine.
"Now come on," scolded Queen Gogira. "Don't be an idiot. Listen to yourself when you speak with Doctor Hand, and listen again when you speak with the Baron. You are not the same person. Even when you're here speaking with me, you are wearing a mask."
Lady Ermine reflected on this wisdom. "I suppose you could be right," she admitted. "But what should I do about it?"
"Fucked if I know!" Queen Gogira snorted.
It was a short conversation, and a boring one at that as no one caught fire or anything, but it weighed on Lady Ermine, and she resolved to get to the bottom of her masks and see what they were hiding.

The first mask she found was the Mask of Submission, which she wore among those monkeys that believed they were more powerful than she. It was the mask that spoke in low tones, that apologized for non-offenses, that scraped and groveled and toed the lines. She had never submitted her will to anyone else's, but she had worn the mask to get things done. She cataloged this mask, and put it away.

The second mask she found was the Mask of Authority, which she wore among those monkeys that believed she was more learned than they. It was the mask that explained, that condescended and smirked. It was a smug bastard of a thing, even though she was not. She wore the mask to make others listen to her, and to make herself feel big. She cataloged this mask, and put it away.

The third mask she found was the Mask of Amiability, which she wore among the monkeys that thought she was their friend. It was the mask that laughed and made small talk, that hosted gatherings and smiled broadly. She was often tired, and grumpy, and hungry, and bored, but the mask kept her in their good graces. She cataloged this mask, and put it away.

And so it was that she spent many months, naming and scraping away the things that separated her from the world. And she became difficult to deal with - moody and unpredictable - and so others came to shun her home. But she realized that the Mask of Brooding was another affectation, an archetype she had absorbed from the narratives of others, and so she named and shelved that one as well. She found the Mask of Immaturity, the Mask of Worldliness, the Mask of Indifference and the Mask of the Victim. These things, too, she put away, until at last one night in her house she found the final mask, the Mask of Identity.

"All this time, I have been trying to separate myself from the masks I show others," she said to no one in particular, because though she had already abandoned the Mask of the Mad Genius some habits are really hard to break. "I knew all along that these masks also affect how I see myself, but now I see that even the idea of an identity is itself a mask. The narrative of who I am cakes on my face and hides me as well as any masquerade ball prop. The world is but a masquerade."

She took off the final mask, proud of her enlightenment. She looked in the mirror to learn what she was, and nothing looked back.



They say Humble Lady Ermine lies dreaming, still.

Fucking coolest thing I've read in ages :mittens:

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Verbal Mike

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on October 19, 2012, 05:24:02 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on October 19, 2012, 05:18:50 AM
Quote from: American Jackal on October 19, 2012, 05:14:21 AM
How does this fit in with not confusing the map for the territory?

The idea is still amorphous, as far as I'm concerned, but as I see it the idea that the projection of persona is not necessarily identical to the personality.

Or further, while you can have a pretty damn accurate map, you cannot have a mask that is not distorted in some way. Every mask, regardless of how many different masks can be made of the same person, will be a caricature, some grotesque, some idealized. But all of them have an inversion. The idealized masks have the blueprint for a grotesque counterpart on the concave side (for the narcissistic) and the grotesque masks have the blueprint for the idealized on the concave (for the perpetually self loathing).


Hmmm...

I hadn't thought of that before, but I like it.
THIS.

I think the way this ties in with the map-territory thing is that both are parts of some human tendency to hang on to simplified, orderly, structured, easy-to-understand summaries of reality, rather than dealing with it in all its incomprehensible complexity. The masks are how we try to summarize ourselves, both for ourselves and for others, thereby inevitably ignoring some details, providing a simplified, comprehensible but incomplete picture of who/what we are. But with masks, more than with other maps, there's a lot of emotional baggage attached to our choice of summary – the writing on the back of the mask, the stuff we don't want (certain) people to know/think about us and hence work hard to negate.

Masks are a special case of maps. Masks are maps designed to be confused for the territory (your face.)
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Q. G. Pennyworth

The way I approached it was that masks are a story about ourselves. Some of them are really obvious lies, some of them are subtle ones, but all of them in the end are constructs that we create both to relate to others and to relate to ourselves. Like walls, you can try to tear them down, but that's probably much more damaging than leaving things alone. Like bars in the window, we can evaluate the pros and cons of wearing each mask, and try to make better decisions about which ones we wear and which ones get thrown in the drawer.

Twid's point about a mask reflecting inward is a really good one. A mask isn't just something that exists between us and other people, it's something that affects our own ideas about self. And ultimately (in my worldview) the self is an unreliable third person narrator using a single character point of reference. You can't get at the narrator, because anything it says about itself is just part of the story. I wanted to write an example of the narrator creating a mask, but it's not coming out right just yet.

Verbal Mike

If I get you right, then I totally agree.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

P3nT4gR4m

Some random thoughts...

Masks are not a bad thing in and of themselves, they're just part of how it works.

There are good and bad masks.

Good masks make the wearer seem "real" and "genuine" and "cool"

Bad masks make the wearer seem "fake" and "twisted" and "uncool"

A lot of the time the wearers themselves don't realise they're wearing a mask

This is because the masks work both ways


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."