I mean, it ain't a mistake. It took intricate and complex coding to pull it off, and an engineer wouldn't have done it proactively, because it's obviously and objectively designed to break the law.
So, you'd have to have a LOT of people involved, with fairly extensive knowledge of what was going on. But this wasn't exposed because someone talked; it was discovered by an independent investigation. Which means everyone had to keep their fucking mouths shut, which approaches the inconceivable, if the old adage that anything involving more than five people becomes unstable is true.
I dunno, the fact they almost got away with it fascinates me.
I'm going to go with "yes." It seems to me that using "conspire" as the word for the collective actions would be very appropriate.
Also, fuck them. I had been eyeballing a TDI A3 for years.
Quote from: LMNO on September 24, 2015, 04:50:32 PM
I mean, it ain't a mistake. It took intricate and complex coding to pull it off, and an engineer wouldn't have done it proactively, because it's obviously and objectively designed to break the law.
So, you'd have to have a LOT of people involved, with fairly extensive knowledge of what was going on. But this wasn't exposed because someone talked; it was discovered by an independent investigation. Which means everyone had to keep their fucking mouths shut, which approaches the inconceivable, if the old adage that anything involving more than five people becomes unstable is true.
I dunno, the fact they almost got away with it fascinates me.
What are you talking about?
The VW emissions scandal.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/22/analysis-deception-fuels-volkswagen-emissions-scandal/72608782/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-after-emissions-cheating-scandal-spreads/2015/09/23/6b09e540-6203-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html
In short, VW had their "clean diesel" engines running software that when undergoing an emissions test would enter clean engine mode to pass the test but otherwise put out something like 40x the allowed nitrogen oxide.
Quote from: Don Coyote on September 24, 2015, 05:11:17 PM
The VW emissions scandal.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/22/analysis-deception-fuels-volkswagen-emissions-scandal/72608782/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-after-emissions-cheating-scandal-spreads/2015/09/23/6b09e540-6203-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html
In short, VW had their "clean diesel" engines running software that when undergoing an emissions test would enter clean engine mode to pass the test but otherwise put out something like 40x the allowed nitrogen oxide.
Yeah, that's definitely a criminal conspiracy.
Holy shit, that's pretty intense. I can't help wondering why they would run a risk so great. I mean, what was that cost/benefit conversation like? "So if we do this it could ruin the company, but we might be able to get away with it"?
Next question being, are other companies doing the same, or similarly nefarious, things?
It would be absolutely stunning if other companies were doing it, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.
It's been floated that they thought they could get away with it because the software that does this is considered intellectual property, and therefore secret (the source code is not available). This was only discovered because someone did a real world test.
I'm waiting to see the impact this has on their new-ish plant in Chattanooga, that's brought about a lot of jobs to an area that sorely needed it.
Heard about this on NPR today. The CEO is stepping down and "taking responsibility" but not taking the blame as a conspirator. I thought I heard something like $18bn in potential fines spanning several nations and empowered international NGOs.
Plus, massive recalls and heavily gouging resale value.
The Germans are gonna have their arses for breakfast if any of these got sold in Germany.
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.
It makes the CIA look like amateurs.
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.
It makes the CIA look like amateurs.
Well, the main thing would be keeping the programmers' mouths shut.
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.
It makes the CIA look like amateurs.
Thanks to you, that's one of the first things that crossed my mind. How did they do it? Engineers aren't usually known for their allegiance to the corporate hierarchy.
Quote from: LMNO on September 24, 2015, 06:07:58 PM
It would be absolutely stunning if other companies were doing it, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.
It's been floated that they thought they could get away with it because the software that does this is considered intellectual property, and therefore secret (the source code is not available). This was only discovered because someone did a real world test.
Later that week, in the same industry:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/new-ttip-scandal-car-industry-buried-report-revealing-us-car-safety-flaws-10514716.html
Quote from: Faust on September 25, 2015, 10:39:09 AM
Quote from: LMNO on September 24, 2015, 06:07:58 PM
It would be absolutely stunning if other companies were doing it, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.
It's been floated that they thought they could get away with it because the software that does this is considered intellectual property, and therefore secret (the source code is not available). This was only discovered because someone did a real world test.
Later that week, in the same industry:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/new-ttip-scandal-car-industry-buried-report-revealing-us-car-safety-flaws-10514716.html
Yeah, see, in nature if you see one occurrence of something, it's a flag telling you that this is something that actually happens a lot, but you haven't known to look for it.
I can't help thinking it's much the same in industry.
Quote from: LMNO on September 25, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.
It makes the CIA look like amateurs.
Thanks to you, that's one of the first things that crossed my mind. How did they do it? Engineers aren't usually known for their allegiance to the corporate hierarchy.
Engineers are, however, known for their allegiance to making a lot of money.
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 25, 2015, 07:28:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 25, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.
It makes the CIA look like amateurs.
Thanks to you, that's one of the first things that crossed my mind. How did they do it? Engineers aren't usually known for their allegiance to the corporate hierarchy.
Engineers are, however, known for their allegiance to making a lot of money.
And lifetime job security.
That would be my guess.
I also wouldn't be entirely surprised if the major car manufacturers also kept a blacklist of some kind. Sure, it would be illegal, but...
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 11:52:05 PM
That would be my guess.
I also wouldn't be entirely surprised if the major car manufacturers also kept a blacklist of some kind. Sure, it would be illegal, but...
Yeah, that doesn't seem to really be a problem for them.
I heard about this on npr. Complete dick move what they did, especially that their getting off relatively free from it.
Everyone who bought the car has a right to sue.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 25, 2015, 07:30:26 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 25, 2015, 07:28:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 25, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.
It makes the CIA look like amateurs.
Thanks to you, that's one of the first things that crossed my mind. How did they do it? Engineers aren't usually known for their allegiance to the corporate hierarchy.
Engineers are, however, known for their allegiance to making a lot of money.
And lifetime job security.
And a greatly lower chance of suffering a tragic life event or two, possibly just one REALLY final one. Just saying.
It would seem to me that the likelihood of a conspiracy staying quiet beyond the "5 people" LMNO mentioned grows exponentially in proportion to the parties' certainty of prosecution, humiliation, torture, or death for themselves and/or their families. Not saying all that was the case here, but prosecution and humiliation are on the table for sure. Wouldn't rule out a real or perceived threat of the others either. I imagine that billions of dollars in "clean" money can lead to justifying some mighty dirty deeds if it's threatened.
i'm curious - since the engine can switch to "i'm being tested for emissions" mode and still run - and pass emissions testing . . . then, how well (or poorly) would the engine run if it simply stayed in this mode? that seems like it would be an easy mod
Essentially, that's what will happen. However, that also means the car will lose either horsepower or fuel efficiency, making it a substandard product.
They should be forced to buy them back. Full sticker price refunds.
Switzerland has temporarily halted the sale of Volkswagen cars while they investigate.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on September 26, 2015, 08:28:20 AM
And a greatly lower chance of suffering a tragic life event or two, possibly just one REALLY final one. Just saying.
Engineers don't think that way.
Quote from: Cain on September 26, 2015, 08:37:51 PM
Switzerland has temporarily halted the sale of Volkswagen cars while they investigate.
The investigation reduced unemployment by 1 (One) standard deviation.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2015, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on September 26, 2015, 08:28:20 AM
And a greatly lower chance of suffering a tragic life event or two, possibly just one REALLY final one. Just saying.
Engineers don't think that way.
Point taken. Apparently I do by default and projected. I gotta watch out for that tendency.
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 24, 2015, 05:38:55 PM
Next question being, are other companies doing the same, or similarly nefarious, things?
From where I work, I'd say yes because it can be hidden so easily.
Where I work they've intentionally made it so all parts of a service line only do one thing, and no one has any idea how anyone else in the chain does their job. So say I found a bunch of servers that were only on for inventory count/billing purposes and had no other reason to be on, I can not be sure if that's really the case or someone in the line is an idiot.
Idiot is far more likely so I discard the nefarious idea.
*edit* Thought about it more: I'd say yes to similar nefarious things, no on the hidden easily bit for the level that VW was on.