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Have You Heard About Fukushima?

Started by Comedentis of the Fructum, May 12, 2012, 10:08:40 AM

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The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on June 26, 2012, 12:22:15 AM
Well then I'd say Reagan gave you good advice anyway, just for the wrong reason. I mean, who wants to be out and about in Naperville? It's just as bad as Joliet or Rockford, just for the opposite reasons.

It wasn't too bad from 79-87, when I lived there.  When I got out of the service and went back, it had somehow turned into fucking Barrington.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Why are you focused on winds? It's in the water, both rain and seawater.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


East Coast Hustle

The heavier isotopes are extremely unlikely to make it from Japan to Oregon in a concentration that concerns me via water-borne delivery. And the prevailing wind patterns ARE the prevailing rain patterns.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on July 19, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
The heavier isotopes are extremely unlikely to make it from Japan to Oregon in a concentration that concerns me via water-borne delivery. And the prevailing wind patterns ARE the prevailing rain patterns.

Nope... the prevailing rain contamination patterns correspond with ocean currents.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Wizard Joseph

It is also worth considering the effects of bio accumulation.  Reactors are not going to stop leeching radioactive waste into the ecosystem for quite some time.  The particles are often chemical mimics of other elements. IIRC plutonium is an iron mimic for example.  They can be carried by almost any life form, and the higher up the chain a life form is the greater the concentration becomes over time.  It is a vector that takes longer to spread, but it is not readily detected as the creature must often be chemically processed to release the radioactive particles. 

It's seems a little too morbid and pointless to me to try to prove which disaster is worse, but whatever the truth is the problem from both reactors will persist for generations.  Even the "coffin" that the Chernobyl reactor is encased in is only a temporary measure.  The radioactive material inside of it is infinitely patient and will steadily burn through it.  The cost of building it was immense in terms of material expense and lives.  We NEED at least 3 more similar efforts in Japan, and after that we will have bought time to figure out the riddle of how to move something you cannot get close enough to touch.

Then we need to hope or pray or whatever that the other containment on the hundreds of other reactors world wide remains perfect in function.  Of course this is impossible, entropy being what it is. 

You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 20, 2012, 03:36:18 AM
It is also worth considering the effects of bio accumulation.  Reactors are not going to stop leeching radioactive waste into the ecosystem for quite some time.  The particles are often chemical mimics of other elements. IIRC plutonium is an iron mimic for example.  They can be carried by almost any life form, and the higher up the chain a life form is the greater the concentration becomes over time.  It is a vector that takes longer to spread, but it is not readily detected as the creature must often be chemically processed to release the radioactive particles. 

It's seems a little too morbid and pointless to me to try to prove which disaster is worse, but whatever the truth is the problem from both reactors will persist for generations.  Even the "coffin" that the Chernobyl reactor is encased in is only a temporary measure.  The radioactive material inside of it is infinitely patient and will steadily burn through it.  The cost of building it was immense in terms of material expense and lives.  We NEED at least 3 more similar efforts in Japan, and after that we will have bought time to figure out the riddle of how to move something you cannot get close enough to touch.

Then we need to hope or pray or whatever that the other containment on the hundreds of other reactors world wide remains perfect in function.  Of course this is impossible, entropy being what it is.

Yep.

Historically, escalating technology seems to come with escalating problems, due to unintended consequences from solutions to other problems.

It's a bit of a dilemma.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 20, 2012, 03:42:44 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 20, 2012, 03:36:18 AM
It is also worth considering the effects of bio accumulation.  Reactors are not going to stop leeching radioactive waste into the ecosystem for quite some time.  The particles are often chemical mimics of other elements. IIRC plutonium is an iron mimic for example.  They can be carried by almost any life form, and the higher up the chain a life form is the greater the concentration becomes over time.  It is a vector that takes longer to spread, but it is not readily detected as the creature must often be chemically processed to release the radioactive particles. 

It's seems a little too morbid and pointless to me to try to prove which disaster is worse, but whatever the truth is the problem from both reactors will persist for generations.  Even the "coffin" that the Chernobyl reactor is encased in is only a temporary measure.  The radioactive material inside of it is infinitely patient and will steadily burn through it.  The cost of building it was immense in terms of material expense and lives.  We NEED at least 3 more similar efforts in Japan, and after that we will have bought time to figure out the riddle of how to move something you cannot get close enough to touch.

Then we need to hope or pray or whatever that the other containment on the hundreds of other reactors world wide remains perfect in function.  Of course this is impossible, entropy being what it is.

Yep.

Historically, escalating technology seems to come with escalating problems, due to unintended consequences from solutions to other problems.

It's a bit of a dilemma.

:lol:
Welcome to Earth!
We have a bit of a dilemma here.

It's not the tech that causes it, it's the addiction of our species to the Easy Fix.  It's the mentality that guides our use of what we learn.  I really think it's that WE, the species, are the dilemma.  Do you do the easy thing that will most likely do for now, or do you do the much more difficult and demanding thing that just might be better in the long run? 
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 20, 2012, 03:51:54 AM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 20, 2012, 03:42:44 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 20, 2012, 03:36:18 AM
It is also worth considering the effects of bio accumulation.  Reactors are not going to stop leeching radioactive waste into the ecosystem for quite some time.  The particles are often chemical mimics of other elements. IIRC plutonium is an iron mimic for example.  They can be carried by almost any life form, and the higher up the chain a life form is the greater the concentration becomes over time.  It is a vector that takes longer to spread, but it is not readily detected as the creature must often be chemically processed to release the radioactive particles. 

It's seems a little too morbid and pointless to me to try to prove which disaster is worse, but whatever the truth is the problem from both reactors will persist for generations.  Even the "coffin" that the Chernobyl reactor is encased in is only a temporary measure.  The radioactive material inside of it is infinitely patient and will steadily burn through it.  The cost of building it was immense in terms of material expense and lives.  We NEED at least 3 more similar efforts in Japan, and after that we will have bought time to figure out the riddle of how to move something you cannot get close enough to touch.

Then we need to hope or pray or whatever that the other containment on the hundreds of other reactors world wide remains perfect in function.  Of course this is impossible, entropy being what it is.

Yep.

Historically, escalating technology seems to come with escalating problems, due to unintended consequences from solutions to other problems.

It's a bit of a dilemma.

:lol:
Welcome to Earth!
We have a bit of a dilemma here.

It's not the tech that causes it, it's the addiction of our species to the Easy Fix.  It's the mentality that guides our use of what we learn.  I really think it's that WE, the species, are the dilemma.  Do you do the easy thing that will most likely do for now, or do you do the much more difficult and demanding thing that just might be better in the long run?

Yep.

That, in a nutshell, is what I'm in school to study and hopefully someday understand. But explaining it's complicated, so usually I just say "epidemiology", because that gets a glimmer of recognition and/or an approving nod 70% of the time.  :lol:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Wizard Joseph

This youtube link here is an interesting and maddening look at the mentality of the pro nuclear.  The links in the description lead to more of the same.  This just happened to be at the top of the YT list for my recommended viewing when I ducked out of here for a few minutes after the last post.  I'm going to listen to the whole speech before I crash tonight and read the articles over the next few days, but at a glance it seems like it'll be a bunch of shit-diving.  If I find any real pearls I'll post them here.

QuoteYep.

That, in a nutshell, is what I'm in school to study and hopefully someday understand. But explaining it's complicated, so usually I just say "epidemiology", because that gets a glimmer of recognition and/or an approving nod 70% of the time.  :lol:

I've been studying it on my own for quite some time.  It's an important puzzle to solve! Maybe we can compare notes someday.
Gotta crash and get to work in the morning. Peace, I'll be back later!
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 20, 2012, 03:06:08 AM
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on July 19, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
The heavier isotopes are extremely unlikely to make it from Japan to Oregon in a concentration that concerns me via water-borne delivery. And the prevailing wind patterns ARE the prevailing rain patterns.

Nope... the prevailing rain contamination patterns correspond with ocean currents.

you got a link or citation? I don't disbelieve you, but it seems counterintuitive.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Anna Mae Bollocks

People on facebook have been posting pictures of deformed plants and animals in the US and panicking that it's from Fukushima.
Of course it's facebook and WE HAVE PLENTY OF TOXIC CRAP OF OUR OWN THAT FUCKS THINGS UP, but I'm not totally ruling it out.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Xooxe

And even so, when large groups of people go looking for something they sometimes end up discovering normal patterns on a large scale and panic about why it is happening. Anyone remember the dead fish and birds from a few years back?

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on July 20, 2012, 05:26:20 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 20, 2012, 03:06:08 AM
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on July 19, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
The heavier isotopes are extremely unlikely to make it from Japan to Oregon in a concentration that concerns me via water-borne delivery. And the prevailing wind patterns ARE the prevailing rain patterns.

Nope... the prevailing rain contamination patterns correspond with ocean currents.

you got a link or citation? I don't disbelieve you, but it seems counterintuitive.

Counterintuitive how? Rainwater in coastal areas is largely evaporate from the ocean's surface.

I think I posted links earlier in the thread. If I have time later today I'll find and repost them.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


minuspace

#58
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 20, 2012, 03:36:18 AM
It is also worth considering the effects of bio accumulation.  Reactors are not going to stop leeching radioactive waste into the ecosystem for quite some time.  The particles are often chemical mimics of other elements. IIRC plutonium is an iron mimic for example.  They can be carried by almost any life form, and the higher up the chain a life form is the greater the concentration becomes over time.  It is a vector that takes longer to spread, but it is not readily detected as the creature must often be chemically processed to release the radioactive particles. 

It's seems a little too morbid and pointless to me to try to prove which disaster is worse, but whatever the truth is the problem from both reactors will persist for generations.  Even the "coffin" that the Chernobyl reactor is encased in is only a temporary measure.  The radioactive material inside of it is infinitely patient and will steadily burn through it.  The cost of building it was immense in terms of material expense and lives.  We NEED at least 3 more similar efforts in Japan, and after that we will have bought time to figure out the riddle of how to move something you cannot get close enough to touch.

Then we need to hope or pray or whatever that the other containment on the hundreds of other reactors world wide remains perfect in function.  Of course this is impossible, entropy being what it is.

Not that I consume anything other than pure light, another handy way to "increase" the gradient of that vector is to describe bio-magnification, in addition to accumulation.  I tnk magnification is supposed to be when you factor exposure to greater concentrations as you move up the predator ranks.  Humans that eat big fish that eat smaller fish that eat littler fish etc...  Essentially it's just to show that the accumulation is not linear, it's worse, if you practice unholy acts like whatever it is you do with the fishy fish-sticks  :lulz:
(eh, sorry about the hair splitting, I don't even think magnification is part of the lexicon anymore and was adequatly described by your account of accumulation, like I said  :lol:

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 21, 2012, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on July 20, 2012, 05:26:20 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 20, 2012, 03:06:08 AM
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on July 19, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
The heavier isotopes are extremely unlikely to make it from Japan to Oregon in a concentration that concerns me via water-borne delivery. And the prevailing wind patterns ARE the prevailing rain patterns.

Nope... the prevailing rain contamination patterns correspond with ocean currents.

you got a link or citation? I don't disbelieve you, but it seems counterintuitive.

Counterintuitive how? Rainwater in coastal areas is largely evaporate from the ocean's surface.

I think I posted links earlier in the thread. If I have time later today I'll find and repost them.

Yeah, I don't know why I had a case of the dumb on that one.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"