Cain contra Robert Anton Wilson

[hooplala]

Incidental to my main point.

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Dude: that's fuckin rude.

I'm done with this conversation.

[LMNO]

despite popular opinion there isn't really any Joycean text in Illuminatus.

NO— because I'd be a fool to think miracles can occur in this world before somebody pays the rent and the taxes and shows that their papers are in order and the people who are running it can always tell you your papers are not in order No because there are no magicians and even Hagbard is mostly a fraud and a con man even if he means well No because I'm not Pope Joan if there ever was a Pope Joan No because like the song says I'm not a queen I'm a woman and the wrong color woman to boot No because there will be rivers of blood and the earth will be shaken before we can overturn Boss Charlie because it isn't a simple one-night symbolic Armageddon like Hagbard fooled them all into thinking No because Hagbard is some kind of magician and put us all on his own trip for a while but the real world isn't a trip it's a bummer No because the lovers don't live happily ever after what happens is that they get married and get into debt and live in slavery ever after and I've got to find something better than that No because none of us are driving the car it's the car that's driving us No because it's like that old joke "Balls" said the queen "if I had them I'd be king" and "Nuts" said the prince "I've got them and I'm not king" and "Crap" said the king and thirty thousand royal subjects squatted and strained for in those days the king's word was law Hagbard would call it anality and sexism and ageism but it just comes down to the women and children getting all the crap right in the face and a few males owning everything the truth is all in the old jokes especially the bad jokes I'm still tripping but this is true they can always say your papers are not in order No because sometimes you've got to be a hermit and then come back later when you're together No because the wheel keeps spinning and doesn't give a fuck if there's going to be any change it's got to be that some human being somewhere does give a fuck No because I've never found a way to shut Simon's mouth and make him listen No because Jesus Christ was a black man and they've even lied about that he was another black man they killed and they won't admit it No because death is the currency in every empire Roman or American or any other all empires are the same Death is always the argument they use No because the whole world can go to the Devil and I'm taking care of Mary Lou No because look at that professor they killed at the UN building and none of them arrested yet No because there's a perpetual motion machine inside me and I'm learning to let it run No because I'll put a curse on all of them I'll burn them I'll condemn them I'll have the world No because look what happened to Daddy and Mommy.

CF:

"...I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes. "

[Cain]

Dude: that's fuckin rude.

I'm done with this conversation.

Yeah?  We'll I'll remember that next time you complain someone is ignoring the point you are making entirely and then the next person goes on to do the exact same thing.

Fucktard.  I dont have to put up with that sort of shit from you, or anyone else.  Go run off, because I refuse to play the game the way you want me to.

[LMNO]

Is this your main point?

But the reason I really dislike RAW is he took something that was meant to be, to a degree, indefinable and went and created a whole damn subculture based around it.

[Cain]

If I have to tell you, whats the point?  I may as well never fucking bother writing if I have to spell every single goddamn thing out, and then take a ton of shit anyway from people who either had a knee jerk reaction to their idol being attacked or otherwise are incapable of reading and thinking at the same time.

[LMNO]

I didn't really want to post a response if you were gonna do the "incidental" thing again.



Oh well.

[A.N. Other]

Dude: that's fuckin rude.

I'm done with this conversation.

Yeah?  We'll I'll remember that next time you complain someone is ignoring the point you are making entirely and then the next person goes on to do the exact same thing.

Fucktard.  I dont have to put up with that sort of shit from you, or anyone else.  Go run off, because I refuse to play the game the way you want me to.

Personally, I was just agreeing with you. It would of have been a kind of silly post for me to just have said, "Oh, yeah."

[Cain]

Dude: that's fuckin rude.

I'm done with this conversation.

Yeah?  We'll I'll remember that next time you complain someone is ignoring the point you are making entirely and then the next person goes on to do the exact same thing.

Fucktard.  I dont have to put up with that sort of shit from you, or anyone else.  Go run off, because I refuse to play the game the way you want me to.

Personally, I was just agreeing with you. It would of have been a kind of silly post for me to just have said, "Oh, yeah."

Apologies, I meant "the one after the next".

[A.N. Other]

No, my mistake. I tend to take things personally. But let's not turn this into an apology thread.

I will now leave this conversation, so that other's may continue to annoy you.

[hooplala]

(Yes, from the title you have probably guessed I am getting my Nietzsche on)

OK, so you wanna know why I don't like RAW?  Why I have a tendency to stomp n00bs who mention his name, why I make fun of Illuminatus! And generally act like a jerk towards people who ape his ideas?

Alright then.  I'll go with the aesthetics then go a bit deeper with the other stuff.  But first, I really don't like his writing style.  When I read something, I don't particularly want to be playing mental mind games with the text, or having to flip over three pages of pretentious imitation Joyce style writings about taking acid.  There's being complex due to the subject matter and then there is just being a pain in the ass, which RAW's fiction tends towards.

But the reason I really dislike RAW is he took something that was meant to be, to a degree, indefinable and went and created a whole damn subculture based around it.  If you read some of the other stuff by Hill and Thornley, you'll notice they were quite into their Zen.  One point that really stuck with Thornley in Zen thought is that naming something essentially destroys it.  Once you have a name, you can caricature it, you can define and exclude and you can eventually subvert it.  Once something has a definable set of ideas and symbols linked with it, it'll be in Hot Topic next week.  And once the Con has its hands on a movement, it ceases to be relevant or dangerous to the prevailing orthodoxy.

Now Illuminatus! did contain a lot of things that were only mentioned in passing by Thornley and Hill, yet were definitely in the Principia Discordia.  The Illuminati, the fate of Ambrose Bierce and Yog-Sothoth come to mind.

But now, every aspiring Discordian seems to think they have to be into these sort of things!  If you can't jabber on for hours about the mystic import of the number 23 (none), or the majesty of the works of H. P. Lovecraft (relatively mediocre), talk like you've been dropping acid non-stop since your third birthday or act like you're stuck in the 1960s then you aren't doing it right.

RAW, in essence, has created his own counter-orthodoxy within a group that shouldn't stand for any of it.  Now because every basement dwelling sockfucker once played Call of Cthulhu, he thinks that makes him a Discordian.  He created a set of interests every Discordian should have and can be identified by, because he created a common reality in Illuminatus! that is probably the single most harmful thing anyone has done to Discordianism since its creation.  Drawing people into a common reality stifles the creative processes and growth of group, because everyone comes to the table with their ideas pre-defined for them.  Thats one of the many reasons I am glad I discovered Discordianism in general and PrincipiaDiscordia.com in particular long before I read any RAW.

There is also the matter of his status.  I remember a ,ÄúDiscordian,Äù coming onto this here board asking for ,Äúwords of wisdom,Äù from one of the Discordian founders.  Create your own damn words of wisdom!  Shit, didn't any of that book actually sink into your skulls?  You are your own spiritual authority.  You can steal as many ideas as you can get away with, but for the love of sweet Baby Jeebus stop looking to others for your own development, you fucking Cabbages!  Thats what created this mess in the first place, people constantly looking to others for orders instead of doing their own thing.  How aneristic.  And RAW is one of the people most of this sort of Cabbage look to for leadership.

Now, I don't hold this against RAW personally.  Going by his personality, he is probably just as tired of people sucking up to him as I am.  I'm sure he didn't intend to be become the cult figure he did, which is what makes it all the more tragic.  I'm almost certain he didn't intend for the book to be as popular as it was.  Personally, he seems a nice guy who has done a lot of interesting things, written some interesting books (Prometheus Rising is fascinating, its hard to deny, as well as his non-fictional work on conspiracies) and is much smarter in a lot more fields than I could be.

But seriously, the only word for some of you people is Bobbies.  You're trying to turn this irreligion which has some pretty interesting and insightful ways of looking into the world into a Bob Anton Wilson fan club.  Didn't you fuckers learn anything from the example of Jesus?  Shit.

After reading this again I've come to the conclusion that there is no response that you would have given reasonable arguments toward, clearly you are blowing out of a megaphone in this rant, not inviting discussion.

It also seems you are in the middle of one of your quarterly nutcase sessions when you fly off the handle with anyone who dares to disagree with you, or not understand your oh-so-well-thought-out point.  How can anyone have the temerity to disagree with YUO?? You're Cain, FFS!

Fuck off and die.

[Cain]

After reading this again I've come to the conclusion that there is no response that you would have given reasonable arguments toward, clearly you are blowing out of a megaphone in this rant, not inviting discussion.

It also seems you are in the middle of one of your quarterly nutcase sessions when you fly off the handle with anyone who dares to disagree with you, or not understand your oh-so-well-thought-out point.  How can anyone have the temerity to disagree with YUO?? You're Cain, FFS!

Fuck off and die.

Thanks for proving my point Hoopla.

Now go die in a fire or something.  I'd hate for you to get even more upset at your inability to see a point dangled right in front of your face, or more criticism of your hero, so ending it now might be the best way for this to go.

[hooplala]

And thank you also for proving MY point. 

[Cain]

And thank you also for proving MY point. 

Yes, of course.  Me getting annoyed that you decide to answer what you want instead of the main point of the debate, and then you going ad hominem when called on it proves your point entirely.

Why are you so blatantly dishonest, Hoopla?

[Cain]

I'm done with this conversation.

Why are you so blatantly dishonest, Hoopla?

[hooplala]

Yes, of course.  Me getting annoyed that you decide to answer what you want instead of the main point of the debate, and then you going ad hominem when called on it proves your point entirely.

You have no point, which was MY point.