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Free Will: Necessary Delusion?

Started by ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞, January 04, 2007, 03:09:58 AM

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ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

"Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people's lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

'It's an illusion, but it's a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back,' he said, comparing it to a magician's trick that has been seen again and again. 'Even though you know it's a trick, you get fooled every time. The feelings just don't go away.'"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html?em&ex=1167973200&en=30114785d6264b5f&ei=5087%0A



No troll.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Thurnez Isa

QuoteThat is hardly a new thought. The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said, as Einstein paraphrased it, that “a human can very well do what he wants, but cannot will what he wants.”

Einstein, among others, found that a comforting idea. “This knowledge of the non-freedom of the will protects me from losing my good humor and taking much too seriously myself and my fellow humans as acting and judging individuals,” he said.

I think I have to think about that one for a while...

I think it maybe best to try to think of a situation to scrutinize
I don't think the writers chocolate menu example is very good
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

Jenne

The Einstein paraphrase of Schopenhauer stood out to me too...throwing in the morality with the inability to enact free will is also interesting.

Hangero

If it were neccessary, we wouldn't be able to believe it doesn't exist.
Or find out.  It isn't so crushing as you might think to resign yourself to fate.

You're still the same afterwards as you were before, and still just as important.
I always tied in the lack of free will with determinism, which when taken with only that one idea, can be a bummer.  It would mean you're never in real control, and the idea of control that you once had, was bullshit.

But then again, it does mean that your actions have true consequence, and you do contribute to this Universe and crazy human comedy in a much more real way.  If we could all act outside of cause-effect, we would all be Gods with the ability to askew and rend the achievements of other from time and space.

It can't exist, and that isn't so disturbing.

LMNO

It seems that the terms are being used loosely.

Being able to do as you will within the confines of what is physically possible to do might be more accurate.

And then, the conditioning and imprints of this domesticated primate life would have to be overcome, as well.

Which makes it highly improbable to have completely free will.  Not to mention, anyone who did have completely free will would probably be locked up by society.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

"A bevy of experiments in recent years suggest that the conscious mind is like a monkey riding a tiger of subconscious decisions and actions in progress, frantically making up stories about being in control."

:lol:
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

LMNO

Actually, that does sound about right.

AFK

Quote from: Netaungrot on January 04, 2007, 03:09:58 AM
"Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people,Äôs lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

Heh, I think most people wouldn't even bother reading this article.  And I can see many starting then just giving up and flipping to Garfield. 

It is an interesting read though.  I really liked the discussion of Hitler and evil. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Thurnez Isa

“The greatest gift which humanity has received is free choice. It is true that we are limited in our use of free choice. But the little free choice we have is such a great gift and is potentially worth so much that for this itself, life is worthwhile living.”

thats actually a worthy ending
i still dislike his chocolate cake situation
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

B_M_W

If one doesn't have free will, then free will is irrelevant.

What is relevant, is that one still has choices.
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

     --Reverse Brainwashing: A Guide http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=9801.0


6.5 billion Buddhas walking around.

99.xxxxxxx% forgot they are Buddha.

Jenne

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 04, 2007, 02:26:19 PM
,ÄúThe greatest gift which humanity has received is free choice. It is true that we are limited in our use of free choice. But the little free choice we have is such a great gift and is potentially worth so much that for this itself, life is worthwhile living.,Äù

thats actually a worthy ending
i still dislike his chocolate cake situation

Yeah, it didn't fit...but then, I think his context of free will differs from the one here in the BIP.  The rest of his text was mish-mashed and jumbled, but interesting stuff (I found the article didn't flow so well), like the tip of the iceberg phenomenon.

Cramulus

I agree, the article wasn't terribly well put together. But the subject matter (free will vs determinism) has interested / bugged me for years.

The melioration principle is a property of animal behavior. It basically says that an organism will engage in a behavior until there are greater rewards for engaging in a different behavior. To me, this crystalizes the whole issue. Animal behavior is incredibly predictable when you look at it in terms of rewards. People are just trying to maximize their rewards.

So my take on all this is that the only real way to demonstrate independence from this principle, (aka free will) is to do something that you honestly don't want to do, something that won't give you a good reward. Are you getting a better reward for defying the system than you were for trying to live within its confines? Is that defiance in itself just a function of the melioration principle?

I mean, all that squishy human stuff (choices, emotions, brain chemistry, etc) is just a product of basic physical systems and governed by basic physical laws. You can't escape it!

sorry to ramble, this is one of those topics that I get really frustrated about.


LMNO

So far, best post you've made to date, Prof.


I see it not as making choices that won't give you a reward, but as making a choice that goes against the easy reward.   

Human physiology seems to gravitate towards immediate gratification, so an excercise of free will would seem to be a rejection of the immediate for the long-term.


Maybe.

AFK

Would not quitting a job you hate (short-term gratification) because you need to put food on the table (long-term) fall into this category then? 

Because I think a lot of people, myself included, have been in that situation. 

Of course, I guess it depends on how serious people actually think about immediately quitting their job as opposed to being just talk. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

Or, you could say that the short term gratification is the social acceptance, and paycheck you receive from working a "normal" job, and the long term would be sufferring in order to do what you actually love.