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Forward Progress

Started by Cramulus, July 16, 2007, 04:19:41 PM

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Cramulus

split from the From a BIP reader thread.

Cramulus' Suggestions for forward progress


1. identify the specific sections of the BIP which are considered too dark or too preachy (the two most common complaints about it).
2. modify them on the wiki.
3. take all this stuff and put it in a new PDF-book. In this book the BIP metaphor is mixed in with humorous stuff such as meme bombs, Discordians in History, the Parable of the Gong, a lot of Vex's stuff, and other more "high content / high humor" passages. Add art ranging from crazy cutups to WOMP nonsense to actual art from Fred, Syn, Vex, Silly, and the numerous other skilled artists on this board.


5. profit


Which specific sections of the BIP do you think are too dark or too preachy?

Provide links to the wiki. (hm, seems to be down at the moment)

Cramulus

Please note that sections can be "too dark or too preachy" without being poorly written. In the past, I've tried to isolate which parts need editing, but found myself tripped up because a lot of the dark passages are very cool and well written. I don't think any of the original authors will be offended by pointing these passages out as long as we clarify that it's not the writing we're focusing on, but the overall feel.

Was that clear?

LMNO

If I recall, some of the essays have very little to do with the BIP as a general concept, and more to do with the individual's perception of their own (or their neighbor's) cell.

I will do a quick re-reading, and get back to this.

AFK

Yes.  I'm assuming when you say "identify" that means it will be publically or privately identified to give the author a chance to plead their case.  
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

Nope. 

Especially because I don't remember who the original authors were.




First note: Almost any piece of writing in the "second person" will sound preachy.

Cramulus

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 16, 2007, 04:28:55 PM
Yes.  I'm assuming when you say "identify" that means it will be publically or privately identified to give the author a chance to plead their case. 

Yeah, hopefully people will quote the relevant sections here.
Optimally this discussion won't look like an "attack/defend" game where someone needs to 'plead their case'. In a perfect world filled with rainbows and unicorn farts, the author would suggest changes or rewrite the section himself, and everyone would go "mmhmm mhmm yeah much cooler".

LHX

what is preaching?

telling people that they are wrong and you are right?



and as for dark - is it dark when people makes bleak observations?




i mean - on the one hand - we are acknowledging that we are fucked by all conventional standards

so
we take it one step further and take unconventional approaches

1. how to best approach living on a sinking ship
2. suggesting that being 'doomed' (by conventional standards) might not be all as bad as we have been raised (and scared) into thinking it is (aka - fear of the unknown seems to be a irrational fear)


different people have different delivery

some writing seeks to make observations and inform
some writing seeks to motivate

occasionally we get both in one



the real sign of forward progress is the fact that we are posting in a forum where people start threads with titles like 'Forward Progress'
neat hell

LMNO

Dark Preaching:

"The world is a shithole and everyone in it are assholes, spewing the shit, and have done for 5000 years, so we're all drowing in other people's shit, which can never be changed, re-arranged, or fixed.  AND IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT."

AFK

Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 16, 2007, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 16, 2007, 04:28:55 PM
Yes.  I'm assuming when you say "identify" that means it will be publically or privately identified to give the author a chance to plead their case. 

Yeah, hopefully people will quote the relevant sections here.
Optimally this discussion won't look like an "attack/defend" game where someone needs to 'plead their case'. In a perfect world filled with rainbows and unicorn farts, the author would suggest changes or rewrite the section himself, and everyone would go "mmhmm mhmm yeah much cooler".

Nah, I think it will be civil enough.  And while the original authors aren't specifically credited, I'm sure everyone knows what they wrote and what got included.  If something's going to be edited I think we could probably go ahead and edit it on the wiki, but just make a reference to it somewhere here so the author can go check it out and then if there is any problem, they can talk it out with whoever changed it. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cramulus

Being Free

QuoteBeing Free/A touch of The Conspiracy/modern bullshit

Haven't you had enough yet? Are you getting sick of it all? You should be. Sickness is our way of life. Take this pill, do this job, but we wont give you enough time to cook, so eat this pre-made meal.

Hey, it may kill you...eventually, but think of the poor starving children in Ethiopia. Sure, your apathy over politics helped contribute to the mess, but think of them! Care for this, eat that, watch this, take your crap, drink your beer and stay smiling. We tell you where to go and what to do.

Tired of being bought and sold like cattle? Are you sheep or goat? Do you want to be led by the nose or do you want to headbutt the herders, then perhaps run amok the flock for a while, scaring the bejeezus out of them?

There's too much of everything nowadays, everything that in a special way is nothing. Keeping up with the neighbours and the fashions while trying to keep up with the bills while having your attention distracted by vacuous twits on the idiot box. It drains you to the point that caring becomes too much of a hassle and the depressives of society become an attractive choice to make.

And that,Äôs exactly how They want it! Tired little sheep kept running by the faithful hounds all day long until they are too tired and submit, they break. Who are They? Nowadays, practically everyone...your boss, your leaders, the media at large, the people responsible for American Idol/X-Factor/fill-in-pointless waste of music reality-TV program here....a huge faceless confederacy constantly trying to sway you this way and that, turn you into a follower of anything.

But you can be free. You can sign your very own Declaration of Independence today, turn the tables on this alliance of idiot leaders who would take you for all you have! How? By ignoring them and taking your own road. Yes, it,Äôs that simple. What has paying them attention ever done, other than distract and depress you? Until you do that, you cannot own yourself, despite having every material need in the world fulfilled. You can live the safe, numbing 'life' of a servant or you can live it how it was meant to be, exciting and terrifying but ultimately free.


I modified it a bit to see how it sounds in the third person:


QuoteBeing Free/A touch of The Conspiracy/modern bullshit

Haven't they had enough yet? Are they getting sick of it all? They should be. Sickness is our way of life. Take this pill, do this job, but we wont give you enough time to cook, so eat this pre-made meal.

Hey, it may kill them... eventually, but think of the poor starving children in Ethiopia. Sure, their apathy over politics helped contribute to the mess, but think of them! Care for this, eat that, watch this, take a crap, drink a beer and stay smiling. The Machine tells them where to go and what to do.

it definitely reads differently. Loses some of its fire I think, because you're no longer appealing directly to the reader.

Do you guys feel this is one of the "preachy" passages? And if so, how can we update it?

AFK

This is just my opinion, but I think it loses it's punch when you put it in third person.  Plus, one could argue it sets up an "Us" vs. "Them" sceanario.  Yeah, I suppose it might be a bit direct, but I personally like it that way.  I see it as cutting through the bullshit and telling it like it is.  Considering my thread in Or Kill Me, very personally relevent now as well.

Anyway bottom line:  I like the original as it is.  My two cents. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cramulus

Yeah, I think I agree with you Rev.



what about Toxicity?

That one's always seemed kind of heavy to me, especially in that it "dehumanizes the opposition".

I think it's definitely one of those passages which is illustrating one person's prison rather than helping people out of it.

The last few lines (to the right of the graphic) I think could be cut / replaced.


this is the part I'm talking about--
Quoteare we witnessing some kind of separation occurring? an identifiable type of separation?

do we know what one of 'them' looks like?

a wide-eyed blank stare?

the type that is able to shuffle along?

the type that is able to perk their ears up to take an order?


some of us 'love' some of these beings which brings to light the messiness of the situation - do 'us' and 'them' have a future together?

to say no

implies some drama

some might suggest tragedy

i dont even think i want to continue


any thoughts there LHX?

LHX

lawls

to be honest - i think that was just me spouting off in Or Kill Me at around the same time PD06 picked up momentum

im not even sure how it ended up in the BIP in the first place



it was a incomplete rant

i remember being in a foul mood when i wrote it

hence that last line



re-reading it now tho - i guess i could still pose the same question


a study on the physical changes to the eye structure that has spent hours staring at a cell phone display





in all honesty Cram - please cut / paste / edit freely


for me personally i guess its a part of that 'prison' - a desire to reach out to those that cannot be reached

is that the one that had the Masta Killa lines on it?
neat hell

LMNO

#13
Page 2 is 2nd person.  It,Äôs mine, and if paired with the GSP, it might manage to make it through.  On consideration:  The ,ÄúJailbreak,Äù meme is misleading, as it implies freedom from prison.  Should I leave it in, only to reveal the horrible troof later?

Page 3-4 (Cain?) is good when it talks of the 2 ideology con as it pertains to politics.  I think it should stay, but it might needs some punching up to add pizzazz.

Page 5 (Wolfie?) is 2nd person, and preachy, and doesn,Äôt really pertain to the BIP as it is now.

Page 6 (?) is 2nd person, and preachy, and dark.  Perhaps a more positive take?  The theme so far seems to be 70% life sucks, 20% you,Äôre doing nothing about it, and 10% think for yourself.

Page 7 (?) is like a manifesto.  Not much lail, but I think it should stay.

Page 8 (TGRR) is obviously a 2nd person preachy rant.  But it,Äôs ironic satire, and it,Äôs got the most lulz content so far.  Keep it.

Page 9 (?) is 2nd person, and a bit condescending.  Dump it.

Page 10-11 (?) is 2nd person, and preachy.  Could be made more conversational, and more an explanation of how to throw a wrench in the Machine,Ñ¢ by ,Äúwaking up,Äù.

Page 12 (TGRR) is like Page 8.  Consider placing further away from previous rant.

Page 13 (?) is 2nd person, dark, and preachy.  Dump it.

Pages 14-15 are 2nd person, and intellectually condescending.  But I wrote it, so I want to keep it in there.  Feel free to argue this point.

Pages 16-17 (LHX?) are dark, but with a lot of content in the spaces between the words.  I suggest changing the last line, or adding a few more lines to end it differently.

Pages 18-19 (?) can probably be split between the 1st paragraph and the rest of it.  The premise ,ÄúExistence is not based on the Truth,Äù needs to be explained better.

Page 20 (RWHN) is 2nd person, and preachy.  Also, it doesn,Äôt really say much, just tells the reader they,Äôre sheep.

Pages 21-22 (?) are the same.  I get the feeling that when a lot of us were writing this, we were pissed off, and wanted to piss other people off, if for no other reason than to make them feel something.

Pages 23-24 (ECH) is 2nd person, but mostly talks about themselves, and even offers some advice.  It might need a little cleaning up, but it,Äôs got good content.

Page 25-26 (Cain?) has a good point, but ends rather flat.  The narrator isn,Äôt motivated to act, as much of the previous pages have extorted us to do so.  Ending should be revised.

Page 27 (?) states the problem well, but skimps when it comes to the solution.  More of that, please.


Now, I,Äôll suffer the beatings from the authors I just slagged.

Cramulus

Re: Toxicity

yeah, it begins with the Masta Killa line

how do you feel it should be modified / streamlined?


at the risk of being critical, I don't really think it belongs in the BIP material. I think it could be edited to fit better. In my opinion, a good edit might

-illustrate that Us and Them are the same people. This heightens the need to recognize Them - so we can avoid those traps
-focus on that idea of toxicity and bring it somewhere. Like how periodically it is necessary to purge toxic waste out of our systems.


I'd take a stab at it LHX, but I'm not sure I can match your tone and style.