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Pros and Cons of Optimism/Pessimism...

Started by maphdet, March 13, 2011, 02:32:10 AM

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The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 06:20:39 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 14, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 14, 2011, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 02:09:20 PM
If you use only one perception filter, optimism and pessimism both have major flaws. However, in problem solving, an optimist is at least likely to come up with 23 different things to try (maybe one of the will work), while a pessimist is more likely to sit on their hands (which almost never works). In survival situations, an optimist or pragmatist are probably more likely to survive...

I can't really think of a situation where a pessimist is likely to have the advantage.




Balls.  I see this shit every day in maintenance.  Everyone talks best case, and then buys their own hype.  I state what could very possibly go wrong, and when it does, every one blames me after the fact because THEIR stupid, rosy-eyed idea didn't fucking work.

I plan for the very worst case in all things, as much as I am able.  When shit breaks down, I'm ready for it, and when the starry-eyed ideas of the engineer & planner fail, I'm there to plod up and fix it right.

Optimists are a plague on mankind.


That's proper engineering, You don't know your control limits until you test them. The first thing any proper engineer does when confronted with a new system is how to break it.


Agreed. That's what I do everyday, though I tend to see it as paranoid pragmatism/realism rather than pessimism.

What type of engineering do you guys do?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 14, 2011, 07:10:56 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 06:20:39 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 14, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 14, 2011, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 02:09:20 PM
If you use only one perception filter, optimism and pessimism both have major flaws. However, in problem solving, an optimist is at least likely to come up with 23 different things to try (maybe one of the will work), while a pessimist is more likely to sit on their hands (which almost never works). In survival situations, an optimist or pragmatist are probably more likely to survive...

I can't really think of a situation where a pessimist is likely to have the advantage.




Balls.  I see this shit every day in maintenance.  Everyone talks best case, and then buys their own hype.  I state what could very possibly go wrong, and when it does, every one blames me after the fact because THEIR stupid, rosy-eyed idea didn't fucking work.

I plan for the very worst case in all things, as much as I am able.  When shit breaks down, I'm ready for it, and when the starry-eyed ideas of the engineer & planner fail, I'm there to plod up and fix it right.

Optimists are a plague on mankind.


That's proper engineering, You don't know your control limits until you test them. The first thing any proper engineer does when confronted with a new system is how to break it.


Agreed. That's what I do everyday, though I tend to see it as paranoid pragmatism/realism rather than pessimism.

What type of engineering do you guys do?

Software/Network etc.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 07:11:45 PM

Software/Network etc.

You guys are even worse than the mechanical/electrical geeks. 

TGRR,
Blue screen of death is my OS.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

Quote from: Doktor Phox on March 13, 2011, 06:43:34 AM
Quote from: maphdet on March 13, 2011, 02:46:30 AM
Quote from: Sigmatic on March 13, 2011, 02:33:27 AM
Optimism is a con.


Why?
Maybe i'm reading too much into this, but I think Siggie's saying that optimism is a confidence trick.  :lulz:

Heh.  Maybe.  :)

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 14, 2011, 07:12:53 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 07:11:45 PM

Software/Network etc.

You guys are even worse than the mechanical/electrical geeks. 

TGRR,
Blue screen of death is my OS.

LOL, thats why I don't use Windows ;-)

My job is looking for security holes in existing software/networks/webapps/etc and helping to design secure solutions for new stuff. So when I look at something I have to consider how many ways it could be broken, what might get exposed if it gets broken and what data might be compromised if it is broken... and then figure out what to do to protect the data, mitigate the risk and fix the flaw.

I recently uncovered a major problem with a system from *insert large software vendor name here*. The system handled credit card numbers. Every transaction was recorded with an encrypted version of the card number, a truncated version of the card number ( 123456******1234 ) and a SHA-1 hash of the card. I came across this as part of an audit and wondered what someone might try to do if they got the file with this data.

Although the encrypted value was secure, a few lines of perl code allowed me to try all possible numbers in the truncated version and then hash them with SHA-1 and compare the hash. We captured about one card every 10 seconds.

:lulz:

So then we got to help the company figure out how to mitigate the risk until the vendor could provide a fix.

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Faust

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 14, 2011, 07:10:56 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 06:20:39 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 14, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 14, 2011, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 14, 2011, 02:09:20 PM
If you use only one perception filter, optimism and pessimism both have major flaws. However, in problem solving, an optimist is at least likely to come up with 23 different things to try (maybe one of the will work), while a pessimist is more likely to sit on their hands (which almost never works). In survival situations, an optimist or pragmatist are probably more likely to survive...

I can't really think of a situation where a pessimist is likely to have the advantage.




Balls.  I see this shit every day in maintenance.  Everyone talks best case, and then buys their own hype.  I state what could very possibly go wrong, and when it does, every one blames me after the fact because THEIR stupid, rosy-eyed idea didn't fucking work.

I plan for the very worst case in all things, as much as I am able.  When shit breaks down, I'm ready for it, and when the starry-eyed ideas of the engineer & planner fail, I'm there to plod up and fix it right.

Optimists are a plague on mankind.


That's proper engineering, You don't know your control limits until you test them. The first thing any proper engineer does when confronted with a new system is how to break it.


Agreed. That's what I do everyday, though I tend to see it as paranoid pragmatism/realism rather than pessimism.

What type of engineering do you guys do?
Automation and control from a physics point of view, but I'm currently working on embedded networks and sensor tech which means I'm working in the electronic side.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

maphdet

Ok, so each on it's own is flawed. I see this pattern with many things/scenarios/emotions/isims....each on it's owned is flawed and better left to be open to many views/thoughts that can achieve one's best results. 

Hmmm, So we could say in essence balance is a key?


Personally, I have tried to be both Optimistic and Pessimistic. However-I had failed to open my self to other possibilities.

Note to self: Do Not Forget To Find And Include All Possibilities.

But still-Pessimism still bothers me more than Optimism. What kind of conditioning went on there in my brain.
I wish I was in Tijuana
Eating barbequed iguana-

Telarus

Simple 'Balance' isn't the key, because static balance is Stagnation.

The ever constant push-pull of the Hodge and the Podge is the best metaphor I've found so far.
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

maphdet

Quote from: Telarus on March 20, 2011, 04:18:22 AM
Simple 'Balance' isn't the key, because static balance is Stagnation.

The ever constant push-pull of the Hodge and the Podge is the best metaphor I've found so far.

Not to nit pick-But will do so anyway-;) Wouldn't then the push-pull of anything eventually become stagnant?

Ok-so balance not so much the key.  I can see that.

Hmmm....I think Kai said something about reality. Look at reality. Maybe there is something there. Reality is a constant change. Can constant change become stagnant in of itself as well? If so, then can that be said for most everything/anything. Maybe. No?



Oh, and btw, really, I was not sure where I was going with this thread. I just wanted to see how and where it would roll to.
Almost like a trick question (like Trip said), without the trickery, if you will.
I wish I was in Tijuana
Eating barbequed iguana-

Don Coyote

Quote from: maphdet on March 20, 2011, 05:02:36 AM
Quote from: Telarus on March 20, 2011, 04:18:22 AM
Simple 'Balance' isn't the key, because static balance is Stagnation.

The ever constant push-pull of the Hodge and the Podge is the best metaphor I've found so far.

Not to nit pick-But will do so anyway-;) Wouldn't then the push-pull of anything eventually become stagnant?

Ok-so balance not so much the key.  I can see that.

Hmmm....I think Kai said something about reality. Look at reality. Maybe there is something there. Reality is a constant change. Can constant change become stagnant in of itself as well? If so, then can that be said for most everything/anything. Maybe. No?



Oh, and btw, really, I was not sure where I was going with this thread. I just wanted to see how and where it would roll to.
Almost like a trick question (like Trip said), without the trickery, if you will.

If it were a simple pull-push from equally fixed points with equal force, probably. But there are several hodges and podges, they are not uniformly distributed and are of varying strengths.

Telarus

#40
Well, right. Look at Art, for example. Take the poses of early statues (static egyptian 'one leg forward, hands at the sides' pose) vs/ the later Renaissance masters. The Masters discovered the concept of "contrapposto", or 'balanced-unbalance' (you get all these verbal paradoxes when you try to describe this state with abstract symbolism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapposto

QuoteWouldn't then the push-pull of anything eventually become stagnant?

Ah, but it's never the same push-pull. The labels are simply for our pattern matching software's convenience. :fnord: [edit: Ah, Coyote got there with a very apt metaphor.]

Technically, Contrapposto is the sense of capturing ~ not any single pose, but the transition from one pose to the next ~ (real people never hold a pose, and even mimes and other stage performers know that holding a static pose for more than 30 seconds will start a muscle cramp somewhere).

This _constantly_seeking_balance_ runs through the whole of really Real reality, as the Taoist saw well in advance modern technology.
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

President Television

My shit list: Stephen Harper, anarchists that complain about taxes instead of institutionalized torture, those people walking, anyone who lets a single aspect of themselves define their entire personality, salesmen that don't smoke pipes, Fredericton New Brunswick, bigots, philosophy majors, my nemesis, pirates that don't do anything, criminals without class, sociopaths, narcissists, furries, juggalos, foes.

maphdet

I'm going to go reflect on this thread some.
I wish I was in Tijuana
Eating barbequed iguana-

Cain

The pros and cons of optimism and pessimism are exactly the same - they're pre-set ways of looking at the world through a lense which will affect your ability to judge and analyse information on its own merits, instead trying to force it into a chosen narrative.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Cain on March 21, 2011, 08:47:17 PM
The pros and cons of optimism and pessimism are exactly the same - they're pre-set ways of looking at the world through a lense which will affect your ability to judge and analyse information on its own merits, instead trying to force it into a chosen narrative.

:mittens:

EOT
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson