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The Trans Discussion

Started by hooplala, June 03, 2015, 04:11:25 PM

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Cain

Everyone has pretty much said what I would've said, but I did just want to remind everyone of the time Mark Ames wounded Gavin McInnes' inner child:

QuoteI'm truly sorry that a 50-year-old theater-trained Confederate such as yourself has to run crying to a Canadian fashionista like Gavin McInnes, the biggest chickenshit who ever called himself a "white power" Confederate that Canada ever produced. Not sure if anyone remembers, but back in 2003, when Gavin was at the peak of his career, the New York Times quoted Gavin playing the "white power" hipster. And like the bad-assed "white power" Confederate Gavin is, the second his hipster stance turned into real controversy, a giant yellow stripe ran up his Canadian back as Gavin squealed "I'm just a hipster poseur! I didn't mean that white power stuff! I love The Nation magazine just as much as I love Pat Buchanan! I swear I'm just a fashion chickenshit who doesn't mean a single thing I say! I'm a pussy and a poseur, c'mon you guys!"

Here's how Gavin portrayed himself to the New York Times:

QuoteHe actually leans much further to the right than the Republican Party. His views are closer to a white supremacist's. "I love being white and I think it's something to be very proud of," he said. "I don't want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life."
    In an interview in The New York Press last year, Mr. McInnes's views came through in the coarse ethnic expressions he used in saying how pleased he was that most Williamsburg hipsters are white. As a result, he became the focus of a letter-writing campaign by a black reader. Vice apologized for Mr. McInnes's comments.

Welp, someone got upset–someone rich, of course, because suckup posers like Gavin only care if rich people don't appreciate his act. So at the first whiff of gunpowder, our Canadian Confederate emailed to the public one of the most shameful, embarassing mea culpas in the history of chickenshits: a long groveling letter to Gawker taking back all the edgy white power things he'd said: "No no no! Wait, I lost a client over saying something edgy! Tell everyone I didn't mean a thing!"

QuoteTHE EXILED PRESENTS: THE GAVIN MCINNES PLAYBOOK OF "WHITE POWER" DO'S & DON'TS!

DO: Shamelessly chicken out when you generate a single iota of real controversy, send a giant rambling knee-chattering letter to gossip site Gawker disowning everything vaguely dangerous you ever may have said that might be construed the wrong way, and to emphasize that you have no convictions or balls, send a self-debasing photo of yourself in a Speedo with your giant pussy backtracking apology letter, so that everyone will think you really are just a harmless poseur Canadian fashionista fraud, too harmless and middle-class to take your White Power stuff seriously;

DON'T: Talk White Power talk if you're just a pussy Canadian fashionista without the balls to follow through on what you started.

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

#16
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Bu🤠ns

I don't think we as a society have any business telling people how they should perceive themselves.  I get kind of upset for when people start going along the lines of 'so where do we draw the lines of acceptance? pedos?'  It's like trans people (and homosexuals as well) seem to hold on to this idea that if it's not something you're born with, it's not valid.  I think that line of thinking is a losing game and not even relevant to the situation.

Freeky

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.


I view it this way, e-prime r-prime this is my extremely simplified opinion:
Male =/= man, female =/= woman.  Man and Woman are genders, social constructs, and, depending on where you are, loosely embody roles that some people inherently link to those genders.  The people who feel like they would be happy in the role of Woman, while being male, are therefore trans, because being Man would suck, and so they want to be called Woman. 

You saying that gender and sex are the same thing, and all male are men and all females are women, that point of view is disregarding the wishes of those who want to be Man or Woman despite the sex not matching their gender, and that makes you a dick.

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

#19
Quote from: Choppas an' Sluggas on June 04, 2015, 12:25:27 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.


I view it this way, e-prime r-prime this is my extremely simplified opinion:
Male =/= man, female =/= woman.  Man and Woman are genders, social constructs, and, depending on where you are, loosely embody roles that some people inherently link to those genders.  The people who feel like they would be happy in the role of Woman, while being male, are therefore trans, because being Man would suck, and so they want to be called Woman. 

You saying that gender and sex are the same thing, and all male are men and all females are women, that point of view is disregarding the wishes of those who want to be Man or Woman despite the sex not matching their gender, and that makes you a dick.

No, I'm saying that gender in this sense  doesn't exist at all, except in the sense that a hallucinatory image exists. It exists only as a shared delusion. It is, as you said, a social construct, and not even one which serves any extant purpose; rather than allow people to choose their role within it it should instead be phased out entirely (no more men only or women only anything) and relegated to he trash heap of history.

Also, believing that there is such a thing as "the role of a women" and assigning this idea a value that is not zero or negative is indeed a classic hallmark of being a sexist pig.

EDIT:
Also, wishes and desires are irrelevant to reality; totally powerless to change it in any way. That's why they're wishes and not facts.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Junkenstein

Holy shit that exiled piece is classic

QuoteAnd I said to Mr. Ames, "Thank you. But there's no point in explaining this to my retarded son Jim Goad."
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Freeky

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 12:45:34 AM
Quote from: Choppas an' Sluggas on June 04, 2015, 12:25:27 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.


I view it this way, e-prime r-prime this is my extremely simplified opinion:
Male =/= man, female =/= woman.  Man and Woman are genders, social constructs, and, depending on where you are, loosely embody roles that some people inherently link to those genders.  The people who feel like they would be happy in the role of Woman, while being male, are therefore trans, because being Man would suck, and so they want to be called Woman. 

You saying that gender and sex are the same thing, and all male are men and all females are women, that point of view is disregarding the wishes of those who want to be Man or Woman despite the sex not matching their gender, and that makes you a dick.

No, I'm saying that gender in this sense  doesn't exist at all, except in the sense that a hallucinatory image exists. It exists only as a shared delusion. It is, as you said, a social construct, and not even one which serves any extant purpose; rather than allow people to choose their role within it it should instead be phased out entirely (no more men only or women only anything) and relegated to he trash heap of history.

Also, believing that there is such a thing as "the role of a women" and assigning this idea a value that is not zero or negative is indeed a classic hallmark of being a sexist pig.

EDIT:
Also, wishes and desires are irrelevant to reality; totally powerless to change it in any way. That's why they're wishes and not facts.

You refusing to acknowledge that social constructs are real and have effects on everyone is naiive and misguided at best, and willfully ignorant or lying to yourself at worst.  A thing doesn't have to be true to be real, and other people's perception of the world has more impact on everything and everyone than you apparently realize.

For instance, I recently underwent a full on psych eval. One of the tests was a personality thing, can't remember what it was called, but I scored more towards "man"than I did "woman" because I like science and not makeup or gossiping.  Is that right, or make any sense at all?  Nope.  Did it still happen?  Yep.  It is a real thing, but not a true thing. 

The Johnny


Our fucking calendar year is based on imaginary events and ideas lol so go figure about the rest
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Freeky

Quote from: The Johnny on June 04, 2015, 01:44:52 AM

Our fucking calendar year is based on imaginary events and ideas lol so go figure about the rest

I know, right?

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2015, 04:29:03 PM

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have.

That isn't the only way to interpret the vague phrase "born into the wrong body". That's merely a description of people's experience. I think you're reading way too much into it as a bit of a straw man to rationalize your beliefs.

There is no necessary condition of Cartesian dualism to explain the phenomenon. Whether people believe that is what is happening is really besides the point. If trans people all explained their condition in terms of the supernatural, would that in have any bearing on whether there is a genetic, physical cause for their strong need to change their sex organs?

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Choppas an' Sluggas on June 04, 2015, 01:10:00 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 12:45:34 AM
Quote from: Choppas an' Sluggas on June 04, 2015, 12:25:27 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.


I view it this way, e-prime r-prime this is my extremely simplified opinion:
Male =/= man, female =/= woman.  Man and Woman are genders, social constructs, and, depending on where you are, loosely embody roles that some people inherently link to those genders.  The people who feel like they would be happy in the role of Woman, while being male, are therefore trans, because being Man would suck, and so they want to be called Woman. 

You saying that gender and sex are the same thing, and all male are men and all females are women, that point of view is disregarding the wishes of those who want to be Man or Woman despite the sex not matching their gender, and that makes you a dick.

No, I'm saying that gender in this sense  doesn't exist at all, except in the sense that a hallucinatory image exists. It exists only as a shared delusion. It is, as you said, a social construct, and not even one which serves any extant purpose; rather than allow people to choose their role within it it should instead be phased out entirely (no more men only or women only anything) and relegated to he trash heap of history.

Also, believing that there is such a thing as "the role of a women" and assigning this idea a value that is not zero or negative is indeed a classic hallmark of being a sexist pig.

EDIT:
Also, wishes and desires are irrelevant to reality; totally powerless to change it in any way. That's why they're wishes and not facts.

You refusing to acknowledge that social constructs are real and have effects on everyone is naiive and misguided at best, and willfully ignorant or lying to yourself at worst.  A thing doesn't have to be true to be real, and other people's perception of the world has more impact on everything and everyone than you apparently realize.

For instance, I recently underwent a full on psych eval. One of the tests was a personality thing, can't remember what it was called, but I scored more towards "man"than I did "woman" because I like science and not makeup or gossiping.  Is that right, or make any sense at all?  Nope.  Did it still happen?  Yep.  It is a real thing, but not a true thing.

Something can affect everyone and not be real. Like what happened in the Salem witch trials; witchcraft sure affected everyone in that town despite the fact that there' no such thing as witches, there's no such thing as witchcraft, there never has been and there never will. Another good example would be Jehovah.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: N E T on June 04, 2015, 02:44:12 AM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2015, 04:29:03 PM

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have.

That isn't the only way to interpret the vague phrase "born into the wrong body". That's merely a description of people's experience. I think you're reading way too much into it as a bit of a straw man to rationalize your beliefs.

There is no necessary condition of Cartesian dualism to explain the phenomenon. Whether people believe that is what is happening is really besides the point. If trans people all explained their condition in terms of the supernatural, would that in have any bearing on whether there is a genetic, physical cause for their strong need to change their sex organs?

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.

I think you are trivializing the power of cultural context on human experience, in addition to just generally being kind of needlessly insulting.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Doktor Howl

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production,

So, voting for Rick Santorum, are we?
Molon Lube

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 03:22:53 AM
Quote from: Choppas an' Sluggas on June 04, 2015, 01:10:00 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 12:45:34 AM
Quote from: Choppas an' Sluggas on June 04, 2015, 12:25:27 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.


I view it this way, e-prime r-prime this is my extremely simplified opinion:
Male =/= man, female =/= woman.  Man and Woman are genders, social constructs, and, depending on where you are, loosely embody roles that some people inherently link to those genders.  The people who feel like they would be happy in the role of Woman, while being male, are therefore trans, because being Man would suck, and so they want to be called Woman. 

You saying that gender and sex are the same thing, and all male are men and all females are women, that point of view is disregarding the wishes of those who want to be Man or Woman despite the sex not matching their gender, and that makes you a dick.

No, I'm saying that gender in this sense  doesn't exist at all, except in the sense that a hallucinatory image exists. It exists only as a shared delusion. It is, as you said, a social construct, and not even one which serves any extant purpose; rather than allow people to choose their role within it it should instead be phased out entirely (no more men only or women only anything) and relegated to he trash heap of history.

Also, believing that there is such a thing as "the role of a women" and assigning this idea a value that is not zero or negative is indeed a classic hallmark of being a sexist pig.

EDIT:
Also, wishes and desires are irrelevant to reality; totally powerless to change it in any way. That's why they're wishes and not facts.

You refusing to acknowledge that social constructs are real and have effects on everyone is naiive and misguided at best, and willfully ignorant or lying to yourself at worst.  A thing doesn't have to be true to be real, and other people's perception of the world has more impact on everything and everyone than you apparently realize.

For instance, I recently underwent a full on psych eval. One of the tests was a personality thing, can't remember what it was called, but I scored more towards "man"than I did "woman" because I like science and not makeup or gossiping.  Is that right, or make any sense at all?  Nope.  Did it still happen?  Yep.  It is a real thing, but not a true thing.

Something can affect everyone and not be real. Like what happened in the Salem witch trials; witchcraft sure affected everyone in that town despite the fact that there' no such thing as witches, there's no such thing as witchcraft, there never has been and there never will. Another good example would be Jehovah.

Social constructs are real; language and education and commerce and government are all social constructs.

However, unlike biological constructs, they evolve very rapidly and are subject to purposeful changes within short time spans.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Doktor Howl

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 03:22:53 AM

Something can affect everyone and not be real. Like what happened in the Salem witch trials; witchcraft sure affected everyone in that town despite the fact that there' no such thing as witches, there's no such thing as witchcraft, there never has been and there never will. Another good example would be Jehovah.

Police are a social fiction, and they'll kill you dead.
Molon Lube