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The Trans Discussion

Started by hooplala, June 03, 2015, 04:11:25 PM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: N E T on June 04, 2015, 02:44:12 AM

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.

I just want to point out that this is absolutely possible. I think it is very doubtful, but possible. If it does turn out to be the case, however, I predict that things will get very very bad for trans people because then there will be a physical, identifiable "disorder" that could be considered "curable". I kind of hope that doesn't happen, for everyone's sake.

Everyone who cares about freedom of gender expression, anyway.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 04, 2015, 04:54:15 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 03:22:53 AM

Something can affect everyone and not be real. Like what happened in the Salem witch trials; witchcraft sure affected everyone in that town despite the fact that there' no such thing as witches, there's no such thing as witchcraft, there never has been and there never will. Another good example would be Jehovah.

Police are a social fiction, and they'll kill you dead.

But no, you don't get it though, man

He's seen through the veil and everyone else still stuck in The Matrix. All this discussion of trans people or whatever is getting in the way of everyone acknowledging his intellectual breakthrough.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 04, 2015, 05:12:54 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 04, 2015, 04:54:15 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 03:22:53 AM

Something can affect everyone and not be real. Like what happened in the Salem witch trials; witchcraft sure affected everyone in that town despite the fact that there' no such thing as witches, there's no such thing as witchcraft, there never has been and there never will. Another good example would be Jehovah.

Police are a social fiction, and they'll kill you dead.

But no, you don't get it though, man

He's seen through the veil and everyone else still stuck in The Matrix. All this discussion of trans people or whatever is getting in the way of everyone acknowledging his intellectual breakthrough.

Yeah, sort of a Brother Nihil, without the Nazi bit.
Molon Lube

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

I mean ot exists, bit it's both useless and largely artificial. I'd say it's about 90% pointless arbitrary cultural inventions, 4.5% obsolete cultural practices, 4.5% evolutionary vestige, and 1% extant evolutionary function that is nonetheless detrimental to society as a whole.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Roly Poly Oly-Garch

I remember a couple years into that really long acid trip I decided that we're, none of us, male or female or gender or anything.  Something, something illusions and the oneness of all the stuff. This woman I know told me, "No. You're a man. I'm a woman. That's actual." I would have argued the point further, but then she tied me to a bed and I knew at once that she was right. 
Back to the fecal matter in the pool

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2015, 04:49:18 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 04, 2015, 02:44:12 AM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2015, 04:29:03 PM

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have.

That isn't the only way to interpret the vague phrase "born into the wrong body". That's merely a description of people's experience. I think you're reading way too much into it as a bit of a straw man to rationalize your beliefs.

There is no necessary condition of Cartesian dualism to explain the phenomenon. Whether people believe that is what is happening is really besides the point. If trans people all explained their condition in terms of the supernatural, would that in have any bearing on whether there is a genetic, physical cause for their strong need to change their sex organs?

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.

I think you are trivializing the power of cultural context on human experience, in addition to just generally being kind of needlessly insulting.

NET is right. It is entirely possible for it to have a physical or genetic basis. Said basis is likely not a random aberration either. It seems to me to be very likely analogous to the sexual mimicry seen in certain species of animals where some males look, behave, and presumably think in a manner typical of the females of the species. (It should be noted that they are nonetheless still classed as males and that female mimicry even paradoxially assists them in functioning as males)
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Johnny on June 04, 2015, 01:44:52 AM

Our fucking calendar year is based on imaginary events and ideas lol so go figure about the rest

No man, we can just dismiss it all with a little hand-waving and POOF!
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on June 04, 2015, 06:08:56 AM
I remember a couple years into that really long acid trip I decided that we're, none of us, male or female or gender or anything.  Something, something illusions and the oneness of all the stuff. This woman I know told me, "No. You're a man. I'm a woman. That's actual." I would have argued the point further, but then she tied me to a bed and I knew at once that she was right.

:lulz: A different take on the barstool experiment.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 06:24:29 AM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2015, 04:49:18 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 04, 2015, 02:44:12 AM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2015, 04:29:03 PM

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have.

That isn't the only way to interpret the vague phrase "born into the wrong body". That's merely a description of people's experience. I think you're reading way too much into it as a bit of a straw man to rationalize your beliefs.

There is no necessary condition of Cartesian dualism to explain the phenomenon. Whether people believe that is what is happening is really besides the point. If trans people all explained their condition in terms of the supernatural, would that in have any bearing on whether there is a genetic, physical cause for their strong need to change their sex organs?

Isn't it conceivable that there is a structure in the brain and body of transgendered individuals that creates this powerful sense of having the wrong sex organs? It's entirely possible for trans people to have physical causes for the need to physically transition that fit within the paradigm of the mind being an emergent property of the body.

I think you are trivializing the power of cultural context on human experience, in addition to just generally being kind of needlessly insulting.

NET is right. It is entirely possible for it to have a physical or genetic basis. Said basis is likely not a random aberration either. It seems to me to be very likely analogous to the sexual mimicry seen in certain species of animals where some males look, behave, and presumably think in a manner typical of the females of the species. (It should be noted that they are nonetheless still classed as males and that female mimicry even paradoxially assists them in functioning as males)

Oh my god you are a fucking idiot.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Roly Poly Oly-Garch

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 06:06:25 AM
I mean ot exists, bit it's both useless and largely artificial. I'd say it's about 90% pointless arbitrary cultural inventions, 4.5% obsolete cultural practices, 4.5% evolutionary vestige, and 1% extant evolutionary function that is nonetheless detrimental to society as a whole.

Umm, I think most of us get your point, it's just that it's about 99% pointless idealized naval gazing that corresponds to like .001% of the population's current experience of reality (less if you omit those under the influence of psychedelics or hyperspecialized speculative philosophy), 300% boring shit that we've all already had our pseudo-profound WHOA's over, and 2.08 x 10^53% glorious distant utopian fantasy that renders real people in the here and now irrelevant.
Back to the fecal matter in the pool

Ben Shapiro

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 03, 2015, 04:47:48 PM
That's entirely reasonable.

Nothing more to add than the implication that calling Trans* a mental disorder puts every other "long tail" behavior on the social construct scale in the same catagory.  Which either stigmatizes everything not generally considered "normal", or renders the term "mental disorder" irrelevant.

Feel the same way.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

To fucking clarify for the one or two who seem to have a terribly unclear impression of what I have said so far:

1. Yes, I think the experience of being transgender is real.
2. No, I don't think it's a disorder, outside of the social sense. In other words, it is not a pathology.
3. Yes, I think it is probably biological.
4. NO, I STILL don't think it's a disorder.
5. I think that the feeling of "being in the wrong body" is largely if not entirely due to social constructs, much like any other form of body dysmorphia.
6. I think that gender identity exists on a spectrum, much like sexuality.
7. Fuck off, that STILL DOESN'T MAKE BEING TRANSGENDER INHERENTLY A DISORDER.
8. I'm not opposed to body modification if that makes people happy.
9. I am opposed to a cultural norm that tells people that they MUST modify their bodies in order to be recognized as the gender they identify as.

Would anyone else like to try their hand at telling me what I really think and why I think it?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on June 04, 2015, 06:44:35 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 06:06:25 AM
I mean ot exists, bit it's both useless and largely artificial. I'd say it's about 90% pointless arbitrary cultural inventions, 4.5% obsolete cultural practices, 4.5% evolutionary vestige, and 1% extant evolutionary function that is nonetheless detrimental to society as a whole.

Umm, I think most of us get your point, it's just that it's about 99% pointless idealized naval gazing that corresponds to like .001% of the population's current experience of reality (less if you omit those under the influence of psychedelics or hyperspecialized speculative philosophy), 300% boring shit that we've all already had our pseudo-profound WHOA's over, and 2.08 x 10^53% glorious distant utopian fantasy that renders real people in the here and now irrelevant.

Well said, sir, well said.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 04, 2015, 05:12:54 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 04, 2015, 04:54:15 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 04, 2015, 03:22:53 AM

Something can affect everyone and not be real. Like what happened in the Salem witch trials; witchcraft sure affected everyone in that town despite the fact that there' no such thing as witches, there's no such thing as witchcraft, there never has been and there never will. Another good example would be Jehovah.

Police are a social fiction, and they'll kill you dead.

But no, you don't get it though, man

He's seen through the veil and everyone else still stuck in The Matrix. All this discussion of trans people or whatever is getting in the way of everyone acknowledging his intellectual breakthrough.

:lulz:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 03, 2015, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.

I agree but not for the same reason. I hold maleness and femaleness (and therefore manhood and womanhood) to be defined solely by gamete production, something which modern medicine is so-far powerless to alter.

EDIT:
And furthermore, if you acknowledge anything beyond that as a salient or meaningful or relevant or worst of all a defining difference between men and women you're a sexist pig.

You're equating sex (male; female) with gender (man; woman). Sex is a (mostly) binary biological construct. Gender is a social attempt to impose defined binary roles on people of a given sex.

Sex, for that matter, is not as binary as most people think. Primary sexual characteristics aside, all of the real, physical differences between males and females occur on a spectrum, with most males clustered to one side of the center and most females clustered to the other side. Look at any two overlapping normal curves for an illustration.

This is really not that difficult of a concept. Most eight-and-nine-year-olds are intellectually developed enough to grasp it. Maybe you should try a little harder?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."