Free Will

[Kai]

I think the other problem with free will discussions is the assumption that the mind is somehow separate from the body and the rest of the universe...you know....Decartes style.

Like I said earlier, it either boils  down to "I am part of the universe, the universe is part of me, and everything is connected, intertwined, interdependent",

OR

nihilism

OR

solipsism.

I prefer the first of those. That, and Emergence.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think I like trying to figure out as many 'maybe' configurations as I can... because we're never gonna be able to prove any of them and it likely won't matter if we did! 

I like the idea of Emergence too... but I dunno if thats juts because I was determined to like it or if I chose to like it 

[Kai]

I think I like trying to figure out as many 'maybe' configurations as I can... because we're never gonna be able to prove any of them and it likely won't matter if we did! 

I like the idea of Emergence too... but I dunno if thats juts because I was determined to like it or if I chose to like it 

The best phrase I have found against the uselessness of pure mental fappery is from Biological Systematics by Schuh.

As a way of providing a boundary of r what they believed to be the yet-unstated conditions implied in the application of parsimony, Swofford et al. went on to say that "At a minimum, acceptance of an optimal tree under the parsimony criterion requires one to assume that conditions that can cause parsimony to estimate an incorrect tree are unlikely to have occurred." The arguments of Sober and Swofford et al. seem to us to be no more compelling than Descartes' genius malignus--the idea that all of our "perceptions" might be figments placed in our heads by an evil demon. Yes, the evidence could be misleading in some absolute, metaphysical sense, and the hypothesis of relationships implied could be false with respect to the actual historical genealogy. But these are fundamentally untestable claims. The solipsist stands unassailable in his fortress, but neither can he sally forth, so we will pass him by.

[MMIX]

I see the sky as blue although I know it isn't
I feel the earth is flat although I know it isn't
I understand my life is directed by my free-will although I know it isn't . . .




PS why do so many of you seem to think that "smaller" decisions are more amenable to "free-will" than "big picture" decisions . . .

[Kai]

WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS FUCKING USELESS MEANINGLESS CONCEPT??

No one in this thread has seriously explained to me the concept of free will and why it is meaningful. IT DOESN'T MEAN A DAMN THING! IT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE!

[Rumckle]

I think the other problem with free will discussions is the assumption that the mind is somehow separate from the body and the rest of the universe...you know....Decartes style.

Like I said earlier, it either boils  down to "I am part of the universe, the universe is part of me, and everything is connected, intertwined, interdependent",

This.

If you feel like you have free will, then, as far as it effects you, you have it.

Similarly you could say to a Solipsist, it doesn't matter if you are a brain in a vat, you can't do anything about it.


Interestingly, at the moment I am taking a philosophy course on the mind and specifically looking at the extended mind, that you can separate the person from their environment, ie what Kai said. Last lecture we discussed caddisfly larvae, and how you can consider their self built home part of the organism, they are awesome.

[Kai]

That makes me happy. 

I wish I could have been there. I would have expanded upon how the case is more than just a shield, its a respiratory organ that allows maximum siphoning of water along the cuticle, increasing oxygen uptake, an anchor or ballast, and a developmental chamber. In the net spinning caddisflies, its a stationary food collector.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS FUCKING USELESS MEANINGLESS CONCEPT??

No one in this thread has seriously explained to me the concept of free will and why it is meaningful. IT DOESN'T MEAN A DAMN THING! IT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE!

It makes PERFECT sense, Kai, because Free Will is what allowed Adam and Eve to disobey God's command and eat of the Fruit of Knowledge, which is why baby Jesus had to die on a cross to wash away the sins of humanity with his blood.

Of course. Everyone knows that.

[MMIX]

Like I said earlier, it either boils  down to "I am part of the universe, the universe is part of me, and everything is connected, intertwined, interdependent",

This.

If you feel like you have free will, then, as far as it effects you, you have it.

But now none of us can have free-will because Kai has said it is a meaningless concept


I am sad now - because it is kind of inevitable that I would be . . .

[Kai]

Like I said earlier, it either boils  down to "I am part of the universe, the universe is part of me, and everything is connected, intertwined, interdependent",

This.

If you feel like you have free will, then, as far as it effects you, you have it.

But now none of us can have free-will because Kai has said it is a meaningless concept


I am sad now - because it is kind of inevitable that I would be . . .

no one can /not/ have free will either.

[Rumckle]

But now none of us can have free-will because Kai has said it is a meaningless concept


I am sad now - because it is kind of inevitable that I would be . . .

Well, if you feel like you don't have free will, then don't worry about it, just enjoy the (meaningless) ride.


@Kai: Wow, caddisflies are cool.
(and now I can try and look smart in my tutorial, thanks)

[MMIX]

Why are you so dead set against the utility of the concept of free-will? Or, to put it another way, - since you are pursuing an ongoing project to devise your own religion is it actually determinism which you find so unacceptable?  


@Rumckle - WTF does free-will have to do with "meaning" . . . ?

[Rumckle]

I assumed you were sad because a lack of free will for some people indicates a meaningless life, if not then, whatever, my point still stands.

[Kai]

Why are you so dead set against the utility of the concept of free-will? Or, to put it another way, - since you are pursuing an ongoing project to devise your own religion is it actually determinism which you find so unacceptable?  


@Rumckle - WTF does free-will have to do with "meaning" . . . ?

It's a meaningless concept derived from old religious arguments, and it only has one utility:



Getting into arguments about whether it exists or not.


It's stupid, REALLY stupid, mental fappery. "Like, lets sit around getting high and fap about completely unecessary metaphysical concepts."

[MMIX]

@Rumckle

I understand my life is directed by my free-will although I know it isn't . . .

Cognitive dissonance FTW!

Maybe I should have said " I experience my behaviour as being self-directed even though I am fully aware that it isn't that simple"

And, yeah, since life is the only game in town, don't just live it - live the fuck out of it . . .