Burgers?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Just out of interest (not going anywhere with this, just genuinely curious) How much of your belief is based on your own particular ideas and thoughts on what a deity might be and how much comes out the bible? Like on a scale of "there seems to be intent behind all this" and "Jesus reanimated the corpse of Lazarus" where are you?

It's pretty clear that the bible is a combination of Sumerian mythology and a mash-up of Middle Eastern mythology, at least until the apocrypha. It has been lost and found, translated a million times, and handed over to power-mongers for "editing".

So I don't put a lot of stock in it, to be perfectly honest.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Given that I have never discounted the (staggeringly high) probability that there's some form of conscious entity either behind or emergent from this universe, I don't think we're really opposed on this issue. You give the impression you've perhaps made up your mind to a greater extent than me but that would be about it?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Given that I have never discounted the (staggeringly high) probability that there's some form of conscious entity either behind or emergent from this universe, I don't think we're really opposed on this issue. You give the impression you've perhaps made up your mind to a greater extent than me but that would be about it?

No, I think your mind is equally made up.

In any case, I think parts of the bible are fascinating, and in general it's a great read; like A Game of Thrones with more treachery and mayhem, but again, it's been monkeyed with since the beginning.

And then there's parts where it just goes "I ate the brown acid", like Ecclesiastes 9:9 or Genesis 16: 8-9 or for added hilarity, Exodus 7: 10-11 and Leviticus 21: 18-20.

[P3nT4gR4m]

No, I think your mind is equally made up.

If it's any consolation, I'm leaning much more heavily toward there being something, I just have absolutely no idea what. Actually that's not strictly true, I have fucking millions of ideas what, it's working out which that has me stumped. I don't even completely rule out the Cartman-jehova scenario but I do find that one a lot more far fetched than most of the others.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No, I think your mind is equally made up.

If it's any consolation, I'm leaning much more heavily toward there being something, I just have absolutely no idea what. Actually that's not strictly true, I have fucking millions of ideas what, it's working out which that has me stumped. I don't even completely rule out the Cartman-jehova scenario but I do find that one a lot more far fetched than most of the others.

Well, it's not a consolation, really, because what other people believe - as one filthy hippie once said - "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.  I do not care if another person worships a thousand gods or none."

The thing that most people don't seem to understand - on ALL sides of the debate - is that personal beliefs are just that: Personal.  I have no right to impose my beliefs on others, and I'll be fucked if I let someone else impose their beliefs on me.

[Junkenstein]

Well LMNO hit that note:

It's when their anti-rational and non-reality-based ideas and beliefs affect me, is when it starts mattering to me.

And that's probably the key point for me. I don't give a fuck if you think drinking two shots of bleach on tuesdays keeps you regular, it's when you turn up at my house with a bottle that I take umbrage with.

I'm not too keen on you telling others about your bleach beliefs either as this would likely end badly for some. So problems then arise.

Don't take that to imply that I think religious beliefs are equivalent to drinking bleach. There just happens to be a bottle next to me and I'm pulling examples from my arse. Also, P3nt, Roger, have a look at that Sapolsky lecture if you can. There's a lot of other shit that could probably be dragged into this but I've honestly got no idea where to start right now.

[LMNO]

Yeah, it's the imposing parts that get to me.

Although, I suppose it could be rightly said that either side could be total dicks about imposing their worldview.  I fall into the "benevolent scientist-king" way of thinking pretty easily, but that has it's own special horror.

"I am become Death, destroyer of worlds."

[Ben Shapiro]

Yes, this is what I was talking about. The pursuit of scientific inquiry was considered one of the most God-glorifying pursuits, because what more noble subject is there for man than to study the Creation of God?

I'm not really sure what happened after that, or why for some reason most Born-Agains hate science.

For people like Twid and I, it still is the ultimate holy work.  Figuring out God's rulebook, so to speak.

And there was always an anti-science crowd.  In the time period we're talking about, it was mostly in England.

Count me in. I'm convinced it's somewhere spread over Heavy Metal albums.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, it's the imposing parts that get to me.

Although, I suppose it could be rightly said that either side could be total dicks about imposing their worldview.  I fall into the "benevolent scientist-king" way of thinking pretty easily, but that has it's own special horror.

"I am become Death, destroyer of worlds."

Balls.

"I AM BECOME COMMON SENSE, ENDER OF GLOBAL WAR."

The bomb is the best thing that happened to humanity in the last century, in terms of less dead people.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yes, this is what I was talking about. The pursuit of scientific inquiry was considered one of the most God-glorifying pursuits, because what more noble subject is there for man than to study the Creation of God?

I'm not really sure what happened after that, or why for some reason most Born-Agains hate science.

For people like Twid and I, it still is the ultimate holy work.  Figuring out God's rulebook, so to speak.

And there was always an anti-science crowd.  In the time period we're talking about, it was mostly in England.

Count me in. I'm convinced it's somewhere spread over Heavy Metal albums.

Any Molly Hatchet cover would have made an appropriate illustration for the Book of Samuel.

[P3nT4gR4m]

No, I think your mind is equally made up.

If it's any consolation, I'm leaning much more heavily toward there being something, I just have absolutely no idea what. Actually that's not strictly true, I have fucking millions of ideas what, it's working out which that has me stumped. I don't even completely rule out the Cartman-jehova scenario but I do find that one a lot more far fetched than most of the others.

Well, it's not a consolation, really, because what other people believe - as one filthy hippie once said - "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.  I do not care if another person worships a thousand gods or none."

The thing that most people don't seem to understand - on ALL sides of the debate - is that personal beliefs are just that: Personal.  I have no right to impose my beliefs on others, and I'll be fucked if I let someone else impose their beliefs on me.

Can't disagree in principle but in practice some beliefs are viral. Especially the more politically exploited ones. The more people believe those, the more unpleasant the situation seems to be. The imposition thing is exactly what I stand against. Catch 22 - how do you prevent a faith from imposing it's beliefs on you without imposing your own beliefs (ie "I can believe whatever I like") on them.

So I attack, I ridicule, but no bones about it - what I'd like to happen is for a specific subset of believers to realise how fucking retarded their belief is in the hope that they'll stop believing it and, thus, stop trying to impose it on me.

I'm not really talking about belief or faith, what I'm talking about is religion, the - we've got it all sussed out and you had better listen up if you know what's good for you - crowd. The organisation, the structure, it's mostly diluted nowadays (used to be a lot nastier) but it's still just a toothless monster, no less monstrous for the lack of fangs.

Yeah, it's the imposing parts that get to me.

Although, I suppose it could be rightly said that either side could be total dicks about imposing their worldview.  I fall into the "benevolent scientist-king" way of thinking pretty easily, but that has it's own special horror.

"I am become Death, destroyer of worlds."

Balls.

"I AM BECOME COMMON SENSE, ENDER OF GLOBAL WAR."

The bomb is the best thing that happened to humanity in the last century, in terms of less dead people.

By fuck, you have a point there! Never looked at it quite like that before 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Can't disagree in principle but in practice some beliefs are viral.

The idea of not being allowed to transmit a belief is odious; it is just that nobody should be able to FORCE the idea.

By fuck, you have a point there! Never looked at it quite like that before 

Can you imagine what the last half of 20C would have looked like without a massive, world-ending shit hammer suspended over it?  World War II would have been a sideshow by comparison.

[Junkenstein]

Last half of the 20C? Lets look at 2014, in no particular order - Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Ukraine, Greece, Venuzeula, Egypt, Israel, North Korea..... All perfectly capable of gearing towards conventional warfare in a flash and standing armies all round in iffy situations that could easily go very badly and drag in neighbours.

If it wasn't for various nuclear powers threatening the IRL banhammer then there'd probably be wars ongoing all over the show.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Last half of the 20C? Lets look at 2014, in no particular order - Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Ukraine, Greece, Venuzeula, Egypt, Israel, North Korea..... All perfectly capable of gearing towards conventional warfare in a flash and standing armies all round in iffy situations that could easily go very badly and drag in neighbours.

If it wasn't for various nuclear powers threatening the IRL banhammer then there'd probably be wars ongoing all over the show.

Small wars happen all the time.  It takes a special set of circumstances to go full potato.

For example, Russia and USA/UK staring at each other over the ruins of Nazi Germany, thinking about being the last man standing.

[Junkenstein]

This is making me wonder if there's a current graph or chart of the various defensive treaties currently in place.

The other side is, who knows what small war or event will drag in everyone else? I doubt many soldiers understood why they were in a trench because a foreign archduke was shot, for example. The modern equivalents abound.