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Early meditations on Mind

Started by Jasper, October 22, 2008, 09:38:31 PM

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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

I thought all animals were not particularly intelligent in any human sense. Then I spent the last 6 years sharing a home with an African Gray Parrot*.

Cats got nothing on those bastards.

*The Alex experiments indicate that African Grays may have an intelligence on par with a 5 year old human and the emotional maturity of a 2 year old human.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 13, 2008, 10:13:57 PM

*The Alex experiments indicate that African Grays may have an intelligence on par with a 5 year old human and the emotional maturity of a 2 year old human.


Why in the hell would anyone willingly subject themselves to a monster creature like that?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


P3nT4gR4m

They are capable of more than 100 word vocabulary.

I spent about 2 years in the company of a rescued wild caught one, unfortunately it was clinically insane (no joke) Something to do with being crated up with a couple of hundred of it's wild pals and shipped across to britain. Typically between 33 and 50% of them survive the trip.

The "lucky" ones are a tad mistrusting of humans by the time they arrive.

Fkin incredible animal tho.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
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walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Rococo Modem Basilisk

I heard about the experiments with that parrot. It took them years and years, and the parrot died the day after it first learned to count to seven. Or maybe five. I forget.

There was also something about figuring out a UI so that it could surf the internet. Say what you want about my love for cats, but I never spent any time figuring out a way that my cat could use a web browser. But I never did it for my grandfather's african grey parrot either. Or my grandfather.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Listen, I have a five-year-old and I'm grateful that she has the emotional development of a three-year-old (demon) because two-year-olds are insanely selfish. Why would anyone want to keep such a nightmare beast as a pet? I only have mine because of biological imperative. Don't get me wrong, I love her, I like her, she's super entertaining, but I can't imagine signing on to such a creature if it was strictly optional.

Also, how are they measuring intelligence? Puzzle-solving? Wondering because the five-year-olds I am familiar with can count for as long as they have breath (because once they figure out the number system, it's obvious) and have vocabularies of at least 15,000 words.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Kai

As we know quite well from this forum, being able to speak doesn't necessarily imply you have anything interesting to say.
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Cainad (dec.)

I'd just like to say that although my cat was certainly not some sort of animal prodigy, or above-average intelligence in every way, he still survived for 18 years as an indoor-outdoor cat and didn't afraid of anything. Loyal as a dog, even if he had no real notion of pack mentality.

Cainad,
Misses that lovable old crank

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

#37
IN our case, Sjaantze's ex bought her as a 'surprise pet'. Parrots are not good pets, they should live free in the Jungle. :(

However, Alex was purchased specifically for testing.

http://www.alexfoundation.org/index2.html

There are lots of videos of him as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYk-wE18BTo
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

P3nT4gR4m


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Payne



Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 14, 2008, 05:23:48 AM
IN our case, Sjaantze's ex bought her as a 'surprise pet'. Parrots are not good pets, they should live free in the Jungle. :(

However, Alex was purchased specifically for testing.

http://www.alexfoundation.org/index2.html

There are lots of videos of him as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYk-wE18BTo

Testing what? Whether parrots are intelligent? It's not a surprise to me when animals can talk or count or analyze objects in their environment... we're animals, if we can do it then all other animals are somewhere on a familiar spectrum of intelligence and communication.

And I agree with you, parrots belong in the wild. I have parakeets, and these noisy little bastards also belong in the wild, but one was a rescue from a household which was literally going to knowingly let her die of beakmites instead of shelling out a few bucks for treatment, and the other is her companion so she's not lonely.

Parakeets, at least, are too stupid to get neurotic the way parrots do.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2008, 05:42:00 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on November 14, 2008, 05:23:48 AM
IN our case, Sjaantze's ex bought her as a 'surprise pet'. Parrots are not good pets, they should live free in the Jungle. :(

However, Alex was purchased specifically for testing.

http://www.alexfoundation.org/index2.html

There are lots of videos of him as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYk-wE18BTo

Testing what? Whether parrots are intelligent? It's not a surprise to me when animals can talk or count or analyze objects in their environment... we're animals, if we can do it then all other animals are somewhere on a familiar spectrum of intelligence and communication.

And I agree with you, parrots belong in the wild. I have parakeets, and these noisy little bastards also belong in the wild, but one was a rescue from a household which was literally going to knowingly let her die of beakmites instead of shelling out a few bucks for treatment, and the other is her companion so she's not lonely.

Parakeets, at least, are too stupid to get neurotic the way parrots do.



They wanted to figure out how much a bird could learn. When Alex was started, the presumption by most biologists was that a large brain was needed for intelligence. So dolphins, apes, whales etc were potentials... birds, it was assumed, were simply parroting humans.

At this point, though, that view has changed dramatically, in part because of Alex. Interestingly though, they think that corvids (crows, ravens etc), may be more intelligent than parrots.

One of my favorite Alex stories involves an IQ test. A nut is tied to a string and then hung from the perch. They judge the intelligence of the bird by how quickly it figures out a way to get the nut. Some birds will just look at it and squak, some will climb/slide down the string and some will pull the string up.

They told Alex "Get the nut."
Alex said "No. You get nut."
They replied "Alex, get the nut"
Alex looked at the nut, looked at the trainer and sais "NO. YOU GET NUT" (loudly)
The trainer said "No, Alexs, You get the nut."
Alex said "N U T... You Get NUT!"

And then he refused to discuss the matter further.

:lulz:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Crows are super-smart, for sure. Also, incredibly strange. Every time I've been pregnant the local crows have been fascinated with me (maybe they do this with all pregnant women? and there was a large family of crows that lived near my last home that was OBSESSED with my oldest daughter. They would congregate around the house and if we went to the store several would go with us, and be waiting outside the store to follow us home again. If we were in the back yard they would come around back to watch us. They were pretty cool, really, but it creeped out some of my friends. Then we moved, and the new crows seem to like us (especially after I had another baby) but not like those other ones did.

A few years ago a crow decided it couldn't stand my friend Pete, and would dive-bomb and harass her every time she left the house. He'd follow her for BLOCKS on foot, trying to drop stuff on her head, and would throw things at her car as well. He kept it up for months.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2008, 06:34:25 PM
Crows are super-smart, for sure. Also, incredibly strange. Every time I've been pregnant the local crows have been fascinated with me (maybe they do this with all pregnant women? and there was a large family of crows that lived near my last home that was OBSESSED with my oldest daughter. They would congregate around the house and if we went to the store several would go with us, and be waiting outside the store to follow us home again. If we were in the back yard they would come around back to watch us. They were pretty cool, really, but it creeped out some of my friends. Then we moved, and the new crows seem to like us (especially after I had another baby) but not like those other ones did.

A few years ago a crow decided it couldn't stand my friend Pete, and would dive-bomb and harass her every time she left the house. He'd follow her for BLOCKS on foot, trying to drop stuff on her head, and would throw things at her car as well. He kept it up for months.

The crow is now the official Discordian bird.