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Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It

Started by NWC, December 13, 2010, 08:37:05 PM

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NWC


So, as we often see here on this board, many people find the Principia, read it, and then swear by it. While reading some stuff on Wittgenstein lately, I came across something he wrote at the end of this Tractacus that seemed quite relevant to this situation. It was his belief that his, and any other, philosophy, should be considered as a ladder. You climb the ladder to get a better view of your surroundings, but then you don't stay up there, you get down and get on with your life. My personal addition to this concept is that each philosophy is a ladder that will show you a different secion of the landscape, and so you can climd as many as you wish in order to get varied views, and then remember what you've seen, but move on.

Andre Compte-Sponville, in his books L'Amour, la Solitude, referenced a slightly different version of this, which apparently comes from the Buddhist tradition. The Buddha, arriving at a river, building himself a raft to cross it. Once built, the raft serves its purpose of bringing him to the other side. However, having crossed the river, the Buddha would not continue to carry the raft on his back, which would only weigh him down.


So yeah, once the Principia has served its purpose, the pineal crap should be left behind. Not saying I don't still get a laugh out of the pentabarf, but come on.
PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED

hooplala

I would firmly agree with that.

It should inform your life, not become your life.  It's my primary objection to monastery living.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

NWC

I know it's anything but revolutionary on this board to reject the strict adherence to the Principia, or the application of the pineal crap everywhere, but the reason I felt like it was a good idea to write this out is to not discredit that which one can take from the book.

For me, the Principia helped me get across a river, but I left it at opposite shore once I'd arrived there.


Also they're just useful metaphors that are worth sharing to anyone, in my opinion.
PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED

hooplala

Quote from: NWC on December 14, 2010, 02:44:52 PM
I know it's anything but revolutionary on this board to reject the strict adherence to the Principia, or the application of the pineal crap everywhere, but the reason I felt like it was a good idea to write this out is to not discredit that which one can take from the book.

For me, the Principia helped me get across a river, but I left it at opposite shore once I'd arrived there.


Also they're just useful metaphors that are worth sharing to anyone, in my opinion.

I also agree with this, me too.  Sorry I don't have much more to contribute to the conversation, you pretty much said what I would say.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Cramulus

It's sad, but you're right. One day I will move on from this. Johnny Brainwash calls himself a "post-Discordian" in the same kind of been there done that vibe that many of us call ourselves "Post-Occult". I think I'm ready for it though, I could be something else if I found something else worth being.

I saw a line the other day on a message board, somebody had said that they were a Discordian, and somebody else said something to the effect of, "If you took it seriously enough to identify with, you are honestly missing the point." and I giggled because of course this spag has no authority when it comes to what stupid shit I believe, but he has a point in some sense, there will be a time when it's hard to still call it a joke.

I have this zealot tendency. Back when I was a Christian (we're talking early teen here) I was relatively faithful. When I was an atheist I was fucking serious about atheism. When I called myself a Taoist I couldn't goddamn shut up about the Tao. (embarrassed about that in hindsight, it was a lot of blah blah blah). And now I'm a Discordian and fuck me if I'm not yammering on about it more than 80% of the other people who are bent out of shape about this in-joke from the 1960s. I don't know what my problem is, I think I'm just a religious nutjob with a healthy mistrust for organization. In a parallel universe I am rocking out buddha style in monastic silence. In another parallel universe I am an ordained protestant minister.

And this is the main thing holding me back from getting the Chao tattooed to me, it's that I want to stay like water, fluid, able to change form completely at the drop of a hat, and be a different kind of nutjob tomorrow.

hooplala

Just to be clear, I don't consider myself past Discordianism... I just don't feel the need to think about it constantly anymore.  It informs my world view, and that is enough for me.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

LMNO

I think that you can still "be" a Discordian, or at least self-identify, without holding on to much of the trappings it originally came in.  

The way I see it, there are a few principles: Don't be afraid of disorder, keep asking questions, and take responsibility for your own Fun™.

Because it is what it is, we can swap out different projections of these principles as we see fit, or in ways that make the most sense to us at the moment, be it Pinealism or Horrormirth.



NWC's insight holds true for a lot of things, and without putting words in his mouth, I would paraphrase thusly:

"Your experiences should guide, but not dictate, your behavior."

What you learn as you go through life, be it good or bad, in books or in the street, whether you agree or reject it, will end up affecting how you act and what you think.  But don't let that experience dominate your behavior above all other things.

Or, perhaps a BIP metaphor:

"You won't get very far by constantly staring at a single brick in your cell."

Phox

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 14, 2010, 03:15:40 PM
I think that you can still "be" a Discordian, or at least self-identify, without holding on to much of the trappings it originally came in.  

The way I see it, there are a few principles: Don't be afraid of disorder, keep asking questions, and take responsibility for your own Fun™.

Because it is what it is, we can swap out different projections of these principles as we see fit, or in ways that make the most sense to us at the moment, be it Pinealism or Horrormirth.



NWC's insight holds true for a lot of things, and without putting words in his mouth, I would paraphrase thusly:

"Your experiences should guide, but not dictate, your behavior."

What you learn as you go through life, be it good or bad, in books or in the street, whether you agree or reject it, will end up affecting how you act and what you think.  But don't let that experience dominate your behavior above all other things.

Or, perhaps a BIP metaphor:

"You won't get very far by constantly staring at a single brick in your cell."
:motorcycle:

Epimetheus

I haven't heard the ladder analogy, but I like it and I'll remember it.
The concept of both metaphors is very refreshing and important to remember (one might even say cling to ;) ).
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


NWC

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 04:42:55 AM
I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 14, 2010, 03:15:40 PM
I think that you can still "be" a Discordian, or at least self-identify, without holding on to much of the trappings it originally came in. 

This sums up pretty well what I would have said. I still consider myself a Discordian as well, as I still appreciate and apply the thought patters that Discordianism brought me. That doesn't mean, however, that I continue to read the texts that originally taught me those thought patterns. I kept the form while leaving behind the material.

Quote from: Cramulus on December 14, 2010, 03:02:08 PMAnd this is the main thing holding me back from getting the Chao tattooed to me, it's that I want to stay like water, fluid, able to change form completely at the drop of a hat, and be a different kind of nutjob tomorrow.

The reason I got the chao tattooed on my leg is the very opposite. I knew that I would change, I knew that in the future I could be vastly different than what I was, but I understood that the chao represented something very important for me that I didn't want to forget. So if I end up someday, through some bizarre turn of events, as a businessman in a corporation, I don't want to be able to forget the ideas that are inextricably linked to my ankle. Identity preservation insurance, if you will. I never want to be without the joy of nonsense.
PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I like to re-read the PD every once in a while simply because I find new things in it every time I do. Underneath the silliness there is a whole lot of not-silliness, and I've found it worth it to read it a few times in order to get at the not-silliness.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


LMNO

Yeah, it's front-loaded with silliness. But about a third of the way through, it starts getting a little heavier.  Next time I read it, I think I'll go back-to-front, and see what I pick up.

Triple Zero

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 04:42:55 AM
I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.

Why am I not surprised?
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

AFK

For me, the PD was something of a catalyst.  That is, when I read it, it wasn't really one of those "Eureka" moments.  It sort of brought together a lot of thoughts and philosophies I already had, but hadn't quite pieced together.  It was like, I realized I was always a Discordian.  I just hadn't ever had a proper title for it.  It crystallized for me so many of the reasons I left the Christian faith of my youth for a more expansive, self-regulated and self-determined religion/spirituality. 

As for the book itself, it's been awhile since I've read it.  But there are parts that resonate with me in particular and I suspect they are the same passages that resonate with many of you.  Nonsense as Salvation, Sermon on Ethics and Love, the Sacred Chao (text)/Reality grids, and of course Greyface. 

I still think of myself as a Discordian.  I don't really go around telling other people I'm a Discordian.  I generally avoid the discussion of religion around friends and family as it doesn't seem to be a very fruitful discussion. 

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this anymore so I'll stop right about here. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.