News:

PD's body has a way of shutting pro-lifer's down.

Main Menu

The strange dichotomy of stupidity

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, May 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Today on the bus I was seated in front of a simple but charming young woman who was making conversation with her chaperone/coach, and I had the thought that retarded people really can be quite delightful.

Then I thought that it's interesting that we are taught compassion for those who fall below the 80 point line, but those who are just above it we treat with contempt, as though being stupid is a failure of merit, particularly if they break the rules.

Further, we aren't even supposed to acknowledge that such a thing is possible, as if everyone above that 80 point mark has equal inherent intellectual capacity. It's weird. "You are mentally retarded so we must be nice to you, but you, you're just stupid so we can totally make fun of you as cruelly as we wish". It doesn't make any fucking sense.

I can think of a way in which it does.  Sort of.  You have to sequentially order the beliefs however, then it becomes more clear.

Belief 1: Stupid people need to be mocked.
Belief 2: Mocking people whose stupidity results from a disease is a social faux pas.
Belief 3: Those belonging to the group who fall under the second belief are given a free pass, because it is easier than re-examining my assumptions about belief 1.

See?  Sorta makes sense, once you factor in the order beliefs and human psychology.

That makes sense from an individual perspective, but it's still lacking from a social perspective.

Mind you, I'm not talking about people with differing and/or inconsistent political or social views. I am not talking about people who are misinformed. I'm talking about people who are stupid; the people who do things that are stupid and then come to a bad end, after which people tend to react with phrases like "What an idiot! He had it coming" or comments about Darwinism in action. As a society, we generally condone the idea that the stupid deserve to get swindled, imprisoned, injured, or killed due to their stupidity.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

I don't have a problem with "stupid" people, as long as they don't get their stupid on my pant legs.  Filthy Assistant, for example, is stupid, and I hate him.  I hate him with the fire of 10,000 suns, because his stupidity makes him believe that he is the SGitR, and it also makes him believe that he is sly.  He is dishonest as hell, which is a trait found in many stupid people (probably because the smart people get away with it).

Mike is a different kind of stupid.  Mike is smart when it comes to his core competencies (chemical engineering and fluid dynamics), but also assumes - DEMANDS - that HE is the SGitR.  He is also blissfully unaware of how his behavior causes people to view him.

Safety Officer isn't really stupid, he's just an ass-lamprey looking for something to attach to.

So there's this mythological stupid person with a heart of gold.  Never met him/her.  I think instead that the stupidity means they cannot see cooperation as a winning strategy.

I'm probably wrong about this.  I can only speak from experience.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 14, 2014, 02:56:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Today on the bus I was seated in front of a simple but charming young woman who was making conversation with her chaperone/coach, and I had the thought that retarded people really can be quite delightful.

Then I thought that it's interesting that we are taught compassion for those who fall below the 80 point line, but those who are just above it we treat with contempt, as though being stupid is a failure of merit, particularly if they break the rules.

Further, we aren't even supposed to acknowledge that such a thing is possible, as if everyone above that 80 point mark has equal inherent intellectual capacity. It's weird. "You are mentally retarded so we must be nice to you, but you, you're just stupid so we can totally make fun of you as cruelly as we wish". It doesn't make any fucking sense.

I can think of a way in which it does.  Sort of.  You have to sequentially order the beliefs however, then it becomes more clear.

Belief 1: Stupid people need to be mocked.
Belief 2: Mocking people whose stupidity results from a disease is a social faux pas.
Belief 3: Those belonging to the group who fall under the second belief are given a free pass, because it is easier than re-examining my assumptions about belief 1.

See?  Sorta makes sense, once you factor in the order beliefs and human psychology.

That makes sense from an individual perspective, but it's still lacking from a social perspective.

Mind you, I'm not talking about people with differing and/or inconsistent political or social views. I am not talking about people who are misinformed. I'm talking about people who are stupid; the people who do things that are stupid and then come to a bad end, after which people tend to react with phrases like "What an idiot! He had it coming" or comments about Darwinism in action. As a society, we generally condone the idea that the stupid deserve to get swindled, imprisoned, injured, or killed due to their stupidity.

"It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
- Canada Bill Jones

That sort of thing?

Because, yeah, I can see that as being part of the American punishment mentality.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 14, 2014, 02:56:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 14, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Today on the bus I was seated in front of a simple but charming young woman who was making conversation with her chaperone/coach, and I had the thought that retarded people really can be quite delightful.

Then I thought that it's interesting that we are taught compassion for those who fall below the 80 point line, but those who are just above it we treat with contempt, as though being stupid is a failure of merit, particularly if they break the rules.

Further, we aren't even supposed to acknowledge that such a thing is possible, as if everyone above that 80 point mark has equal inherent intellectual capacity. It's weird. "You are mentally retarded so we must be nice to you, but you, you're just stupid so we can totally make fun of you as cruelly as we wish". It doesn't make any fucking sense.

I can think of a way in which it does.  Sort of.  You have to sequentially order the beliefs however, then it becomes more clear.

Belief 1: Stupid people need to be mocked.
Belief 2: Mocking people whose stupidity results from a disease is a social faux pas.
Belief 3: Those belonging to the group who fall under the second belief are given a free pass, because it is easier than re-examining my assumptions about belief 1.

See?  Sorta makes sense, once you factor in the order beliefs and human psychology.

That makes sense from an individual perspective, but it's still lacking from a social perspective.

Mind you, I'm not talking about people with differing and/or inconsistent political or social views. I am not talking about people who are misinformed. I'm talking about people who are stupid; the people who do things that are stupid and then come to a bad end, after which people tend to react with phrases like "What an idiot! He had it coming" or comments about Darwinism in action. As a society, we generally condone the idea that the stupid deserve to get swindled, imprisoned, injured, or killed due to their stupidity.

"It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
- Canada Bill Jones

That sort of thing?

Because, yeah, I can see that as being part of the American punishment mentality.

Yes, this exactly. Or the way people hoot and holler when someone gets themselves hurt or killed by doing something that's obviously stupid to someone who, well, isn't stupid.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 15, 2014, 04:06:37 AM


Yes, this exactly. Or the way people hoot and holler when someone gets themselves hurt or killed by doing something that's obviously stupid to someone who, well, isn't stupid.

I usually just feel bad that someone gets maimed or killed.  Unless what they were doing at the time was malicious, in which case I usually just don't care (in very extreme cases, I am happy about it, but that's restricted to people like Martin Bormann, Adolf Eichmann, etc).

I was a little bothered by all the hooting and ass-slapping that went on when Fred Phelps died.  The man wasted his entire life hating.  That's tragic.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
I don't have a problem with "stupid" people, as long as they don't get their stupid on my pant legs.  Filthy Assistant, for example, is stupid, and I hate him.  I hate him with the fire of 10,000 suns, because his stupidity makes him believe that he is the SGitR, and it also makes him believe that he is sly.  He is dishonest as hell, which is a trait found in many stupid people (probably because the smart people get away with it).

Mike is a different kind of stupid.  Mike is smart when it comes to his core competencies (chemical engineering and fluid dynamics), but also assumes - DEMANDS - that HE is the SGitR.  He is also blissfully unaware of how his behavior causes people to view him.

Safety Officer isn't really stupid, he's just an ass-lamprey looking for something to attach to.

So there's this mythological stupid person with a heart of gold.  Never met him/her.  I think instead that the stupidity means they cannot see cooperation as a winning strategy.

I'm probably wrong about this.  I can only speak from experience.

I find that the kind of people who get under my skin with their stupidity are the people who aren't actually what I would call stupid... just stupider than me, and usually smart enough to have been told their whole life how smart they are. Smart enough to assume that they're smarter than everybody else they encounter, but not quite smart enough to recognize when they're in the presence of someone smarter. Those are the SGiTRs.

Then there are the REALLY stupid people, the people who just can't grasp complex or abstract concepts very well. They range from good-hearted to mean bastards, just like everyone else, but they have a hard time understanding perspectives outside of their own experience, and relatively simple functions like reading a map or a bus schedule or a book may be harder and more time-consuming for them. They are slower to learn new things and don't make leaps of logic... or if they do, their leaps are often wildly inaccurate. These are people who, if they really put their minds to it and work hard, get straight C's, and are rightfully proud to have managed it.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 15, 2014, 04:20:05 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
I don't have a problem with "stupid" people, as long as they don't get their stupid on my pant legs.  Filthy Assistant, for example, is stupid, and I hate him.  I hate him with the fire of 10,000 suns, because his stupidity makes him believe that he is the SGitR, and it also makes him believe that he is sly.  He is dishonest as hell, which is a trait found in many stupid people (probably because the smart people get away with it).

Mike is a different kind of stupid.  Mike is smart when it comes to his core competencies (chemical engineering and fluid dynamics), but also assumes - DEMANDS - that HE is the SGitR.  He is also blissfully unaware of how his behavior causes people to view him.

Safety Officer isn't really stupid, he's just an ass-lamprey looking for something to attach to.

So there's this mythological stupid person with a heart of gold.  Never met him/her.  I think instead that the stupidity means they cannot see cooperation as a winning strategy.

I'm probably wrong about this.  I can only speak from experience.

I find that the kind of people who get under my skin with their stupidity are the people who aren't actually what I would call stupid... just stupider than me, and usually smart enough to have been told their whole life how smart they are. Smart enough to assume that they're smarter than everybody else they encounter, but not quite smart enough to recognize when they're in the presence of someone smarter. Those are the SGiTRs.

Then there are the REALLY stupid people, the people who just can't grasp complex or abstract concepts very well. They range from good-hearted to mean bastards, just like everyone else, but they have a hard time understanding perspectives outside of their own experience, and relatively simple functions like reading a map or a bus schedule or a book may be harder and more time-consuming for them. They are slower to learn new things and don't make leaps of logic... or if they do, their leaps are often wildly inaccurate. These are people who, if they really put their minds to it and work hard, get straight C's, and are rightfully proud to have managed it.

Can't argue with that. I was referring to the former of your examples.

My wife's best friend, now that I think about it, is pretty thick...But she's nice enough, and she tries hard.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

P3nT4gR4m

Some "Thick" people frustrate me because I can't help myself from thinking they're not using their brain. They're walking around with a piece of hardware that would be capable or working out new quantum equations if it wasn't stuck in a - "Hello world" ... Goto 10 - loop.

You can make stupid. Just repeatedly them they're an idiot all their lives and some people will end up believing it.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 15, 2014, 06:06:32 AM
Some "Thick" people frustrate me because I can't help myself from thinking they're not using their brain. They're walking around with a piece of hardware that would be capable or working out new quantum equations if it wasn't stuck in a - "Hello world" ... Goto 10 - loop.

You can make stupid. Just repeatedly them they're an idiot all their lives and some people will end up believing it.

I'm interested in this assumption, which seems to be the most common one, that garden-variety stupidity is willful rather than inherent, which seems to be based on the belief that most people are issued a standard brain. Most interesting to me is that it generally co-exists with the comprehension that some people are mentally retarded, ie. have an IQ under 80 (or 75, depending on whose criteria you're using). The understanding of one seems to contradict the other, yet it's nonetheless the prevalent belief.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


P3nT4gR4m

I try not to have a prevalent belief. I think there's truth in both - brain "damage" and the "wilful" stupidity, although wilful isn't the word I'd use since more often than not what seems to have happened is an institutionalised or self imposed erosion or corruption of will.

If someone believes they're stupid it isn't necessarily willful or lazy or any of the other things we accuse them of (although in some cases it might be), it's faulty self-reinforcing code, like an addiction, which is probably pretty fucking difficult to break out of. Requires a strong will. Oh yeah, that's right, the will has been corrupted. Whaddya do?

Education?  8)


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

LMNO

Can we separate "smart" and "intelligent"?  I know this guy who is certainly smart, but he simply refuses to read.  Like, he's proud of not reading.  And as a result, is incredibly dumb.  Even though he's smart.  You just can't have a conversation with this guy about anything other than the weather.

P3nT4gR4m

I think there's probably a lot of different 'flavours' of stupid. I'm reminded of people who can be geniuses in some field of science or art but unable to figure out a stick shift or order a pizza over the phone kind of thing.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Q. G. Pennyworth

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 15, 2014, 11:52:56 AM
Can we separate "smart" and "intelligent"?  I know this guy who is certainly smart, but he simply refuses to read.  Like, he's proud of not reading.  And as a result, is incredibly dumb.  Even though he's smart.  You just can't have a conversation with this guy about anything other than the weather.

I think the right terminology here is "dumb" and "ignorant." The willfully ignorant are infuriating, and there's a whole culture of willful ignorance in the US right now that (quite justifiably) makes smart people crazy. It can be very difficult to determine if someone is dumb or ignorant at first glance, and it's important to reject ignorance culture, so I think a lot of dumb people wrongly get caught in the crossfire. There are also a disproportionate number of dumb people who ascribe to ignorance culture, because it makes them feel better about themselves, so people in the "educated" culture camp may make the mistake of conflating the two. There's also the difference between ignorance and willful ignorance to unpack in that baggage, but I think ignorance and stupid are the key things.

Junkenstein

Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 15, 2014, 12:52:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 15, 2014, 11:52:56 AM
Can we separate "smart" and "intelligent"?  I know this guy who is certainly smart, but he simply refuses to read.  Like, he's proud of not reading.  And as a result, is incredibly dumb.  Even though he's smart.  You just can't have a conversation with this guy about anything other than the weather.

I think the right terminology here is "dumb" and "ignorant." The willfully ignorant are infuriating, and there's a whole culture of willful ignorance in the US right now that (quite justifiably) makes smart people crazy. It can be very difficult to determine if someone is dumb or ignorant at first glance, and it's important to reject ignorance culture, so I think a lot of dumb people wrongly get caught in the crossfire. There are also a disproportionate number of dumb people who ascribe to ignorance culture, because it makes them feel better about themselves, so people in the "educated" culture camp may make the mistake of conflating the two. There's also the difference between ignorance and willful ignorance to unpack in that baggage, but I think ignorance and stupid are the key things.

Oh this. The wilful ignorance thing is stunning and not just in the US. It appears to be a factor in most of the western world, and probably other places too. I only hesitate in that regard as there is again a difference between wilful ignorance and ignorance through lack of choice.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 15, 2014, 11:52:56 AM
Can we separate "smart" and "intelligent"?  I know this guy who is certainly smart, but he simply refuses to read.  Like, he's proud of not reading.  And as a result, is incredibly dumb.  Even though he's smart.  You just can't have a conversation with this guy about anything other than the weather.

There's a word for that, and it's "ignorance", which is distinct from "stupidity" (although choosing ignorance can have a self-limiting effect on intelligence, just as choosing education has a correlated rise in intelligence).
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."