Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 02, 2011, 03:37:56 PM

Title: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 02, 2011, 03:37:56 PM
Unlike Day of Rage, I kind of like the occupy movement. I predict lots and lots of arrests and actual disruption. What do you guys think about Occupy?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 02, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

The moment they realize the problem is too large to ignore it, there will be accusations of terrorism, and also most likely some horrific violence which will be blamed on the Occupiers. I predict a bombing. This will be used to "justify" extreme police violence against the Occupiers.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 02, 2011, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

Yesterday? I'm sure some wingnut already did and just nobody paid attention to them yet.

Also, what exactly is the difference between Day of Rage and OccupyWallstreet/Everywhere?

I got the idea that one sort of flowed from the other?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 02, 2011, 06:05:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 02, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

The moment they realize the problem is too large to ignore it, there will be accusations of terrorism, and also most likely some horrific violence which will be blamed on the Occupiers. I predict a bombing. This will be used to "justify" extreme police violence against the Occupiers.

I'll agree with that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 02, 2011, 06:07:25 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 02, 2011, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

Yesterday? I'm sure some wingnut already did and just nobody paid attention to them yet.

Also, what exactly is the difference between Day of Rage and OccupyWallstreet/Everywhere?

I got the idea that one sort of flowed from the other?

Yeah, the occupy thing seems to have emerged out of Day of "Rage".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 02, 2011, 06:20:34 PM
A Day of Rage is such a silly idea.

There needs to be a Forever of Rage, and it needs to be effectual, disruptive rage.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 02, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 06:20:34 PM
A Day of Rage is such a silly idea.

There needs to be a Forever of Rage, and it needs to be effectual, disruptive rage.

The name was stupid. It was already an ineffectual protest, made ridiculous by choosing such an absurd name. Rage? THAT WAS NOT RAGE.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2011, 06:41:57 PM
It was...for people who grew up with "Rage Against the Machine" as their symbols of resistance.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 02, 2011, 06:42:43 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 02, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 06:20:34 PM
A Day of Rage is such a silly idea.

There needs to be a Forever of Rage, and it needs to be effectual, disruptive rage.

The name was stupid. It was already an ineffectual protest, made ridiculous by choosing such an absurd name. Rage? THAT WAS NOT RAGE.

DAY OF MILD TO MODERATE DISPLEASURE, EXPRESSED AS POLITELY AS POSSIBLE!

:sotw:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: PopeTom on October 02, 2011, 07:26:20 PM
This is making the rounds on Facebook in regards to reporting on Occupy Wall Street.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316356_286107748083800_100000537317873_1077420_2024385679_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 03, 2011, 04:01:36 AM
i just found on this Zero Hedg (http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/wall-street-protest-starting-look-egypt)e article showing pics of the protest, that Fox News has a live feed (http://www.myfoxny.com/subindex/video/live_video_2) of the protests, but it's not showing much right now.

Also, there's a reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/kwtjl/calling_all_military_veterans_of_reddit_we_took/) where some Marine veterans are planning on joining the protestors to protect them from police.  It appears that the OP and 15 other Marines are going, but more in the thread said they would join.  if there becomes a sizable group of Marine veterans standing off with police, that could get interesting....
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on October 03, 2011, 06:54:05 AM
I think it's brilliant.

Not that it will solve anything or whatnot but this will at least (i hope anyway), get people used to grouping together.
I think most of the citizens in the states were fed up and ready for something like this prior to 9-11 but then that tragedy shocked and slumbered the citizens back into a slumber. I hope they are waking now.

Im going to Occupy Tampa on Oct. 6th.
I think the Every one should try to make it out to one of these. It's going viral all over-kinda like a lol cat on the tubes. :)


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 03, 2011, 07:43:18 AM
I'd go to Occupy Portland at noon at the Waterfront this Thursday, but I have class.

I'm definitely going to swing by if it's still going on when I get out though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on October 03, 2011, 09:39:45 AM
sleeping in the park is harder then it looks
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 03, 2011, 03:18:22 PM
from Dear Coke Talk (http://www.dearcoketalk.com/post/10948177405)..........


On occupying wall street.

fuck you for your lack of support to the wall street kids. you must be pretty fucking out of touch with reality. those "bunch of fuzzy-headed antiglobalization dorks loitering around lower Manhattan confusing their own vegan farts for a whiff of revolution" include my friends, many of whom are forced to work shitty underpaid jobs without insurance just to eat. my best friend just had to have emergency surgery without insurance. compounded with her student loan debt, she's now facing eviction. go to hell, seriously.



You're not gonna squeeze any sympathy out of me because your friends work underpaid jobs without insurance. I've been there, asshole. It's called being in your twenties. Everyone without a trust fund has to do it, so quit whining.

As for the protest, it was just a bunch of fuzzy-headed antiglobalization dorks when I wrote that two weeks ago. It's not anymore. They've picked up some momentum and a few celebrity endorsements. Good for them, but it isn't nearly enough, which has been my point all along.

This is still just the cultural equivalent of a temper tantrum. It's steam harmlessly escaping from a pressure release valve. It's toothless. That doesn't mean it can't explode into something with the potential to alter the American experience. Hopefully it will, but to do that, it'll have to evolve way beyond an unfocused expression of socio-economic frustration. It will have to grow teeth.

Wanting more from this protest doesn't mean I lack support for the kids out there on the street, especially when they're getting the shit kicked out of them by the NYPD.

I'm down for the revolution. Bring it.

But so far, this ain't it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 04:27:53 PM
The most likely thing to happen is some of the antiglobalization dorks will get beaten up a fair bit by the police, smarten up because of it, and start getting a little more radical in their demands.

PRO-TIP: when was the last time protests worked, anyway?  The Civil Rights movement?  Start looking at people who have been successful in their attempts to remake society.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 03, 2011, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 02, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

The moment they realize the problem is too large to ignore it, there will be accusations of terrorism, and also most likely some horrific violence which will be blamed on the Occupiers. I predict a bombing. This will be used to "justify" extreme police violence against the Occupiers.
I think what will happen if it starts to get too large, and I'm already seeing signs of this, is the movement will be co-opted and neutered by mainstream establishment Democrats.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 03, 2011, 06:08:37 PM
from IOZ (http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/10/best-practices.html)....

I guess what I like most is the sort of polite befuddlement of liberal Americans, your average NPRische type, colledgucated and vaguely sympathetic with the idea that Something Has Gone Wrong in America--perhaps not personally struggling too mightily, but, you know, one Subaru payment away from ruin--as they gaze on the Occupy Wall Street types.  They may vaguely recall that School of the Americas rally they attended as college students back in their Kenyon days or whatever . . . or was it Free Palestine?  But what they really want to know is, what do they want?  What is Occupy Wall Street's agenda?  What are their demands.  The course seems lacking in a syllabus.  It isn't in outline form.  No one seems prepared to PowerPoint it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 06:53:07 PM
Of course, it is not like any other ideologically incoherent group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement) has managed to garner mass media attention and gain political power in recent history.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 06:58:09 PM
All these fuckers are going to an unnamed facility just as soon as an "incident" can be arranged.

Protests...All they do is line up the hippies for photographing/arresting/beating/shooting.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 06:53:07 PM
Of course, it is not like any other ideologically incoherent group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement) has managed to garner mass media attention and gain political power in recent history.

See my above post.  And think about the horse in Animal Farm.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:01:56 PM
If they are antiglobalization dweebs, as Coke Talk attests...there will be more than a few undercover officers present, in addition to any the NYPD (which, let us not forget, was running intelligence for the CIA, illegally, in NYC) have smuggled in.

The best thing the protestors can do is immediately mob anyone who utters "black bloc" without the following words "are almost always fucking stupid ideas, dreamt up by undercover police officers, to give an excuse to arrest everyone and shut the protest down".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 07:04:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:01:56 PM
If they are antiglobalization dweebs, as Coke Talk attests...there will be more than a few undercover officers present, in addition to any the NYPD (which, let us not forget, was running intelligence for the CIA, illegally, in NYC) have smuggled in.

The best thing the protestors can do is immediately mob anyone who utters "black bloc" without the following words "are almost always fucking stupid ideas, dreamt up by undercover police officers, to give an excuse to arrest everyone and shut the protest down".

Protesting, to me, seems almost like watching the French (or America) "fight the last war", if you catch my drift.

Old ideas.  Old methods.  Methods that The Machine™ has had more than a century to figure out how to deal with.  Either something new will be devised, or the hippies all get beaten up and tossed in internment camps for nothing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
Yup.  They think because they're using iPhones (which can track everywhere you go and have a backdoor in them for government access) and using Facebook (ditto) and flickr (ok...flickr is actually pretty cool) that this somehow makes up for the complete and utter lack of imagination they exhibit, and the orthodoxy of their techniques.

And the thing is, the more they fail, the more likely we will eventually see a Baader-Meinhof style backlash, which will of course lead to an even greater state backlash.

There is a lot to be said for the application of fast, brutal but ultimately effective action.  What we are seeing here is someone picking at a festering wound.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 07:11:43 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
Yup.  They think because they're using iPhones (which can track everywhere you go and have a backdoor in them for government access) and using Facebook (ditto) and flickr (ok...flickr is actually pretty cool) that this somehow makes up for the complete and utter lack of imagination they exhibit, and the orthodoxy of their techniques.

And the thing is, the more they fail, the more likely we will eventually see a Baader-Meinhof style backlash, which will of course lead to an even greater state backlash.

There is a lot to be said for the application of fast, brutal but ultimately effective action.  What we are seeing here is someone picking at a festering wound.

That's because Americans have become pathologically incapable of doing ANYTHING full bore...or, for that matter, even finishing anything.  It started in 1969-1976.  We went to the moon and quit, and we haven't done a fucking thing properly since.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:33:54 PM
I will say, in their defence, that "this shit is broke, fix it" is actually a fairly coherent demand.

I don't recall anyone asking the Teabaggers for legislative drafts of alternatives to the American Healthcare Act.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 03, 2011, 07:43:41 PM
I would say that at this point, this has potential to actually go somewhere if the numbers of people who claim interest actually participate. Here in Portland over 6000 people are members of the FB group, and actively recruiting for more.

Of course, reality is that probably only a tiny percentage will actually GO OUTSIDE AND DO SOMETHING when it comes right down to it. Because going outside is scary, and they might get hurt.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:45:37 PM
Jaime, Alex, Tiffany and 7 more of your friends like VIOLENT REVOLUTION.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 07:47:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:45:37 PM
Jaime, Alex, Tiffany and 7 more of your friends like VIOLENT REVOLUTION.

But are NOT ATTENDING.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 03, 2011, 07:50:03 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 07:47:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:45:37 PM
Jaime, Alex, Tiffany and 7 more of your friends like VIOLENT REVOLUTION.

But are NOT ATTENDING.

:lulz:

Wow.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 03, 2011, 08:00:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 07:47:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:45:37 PM
Jaime, Alex, Tiffany and 7 more of your friends like VIOLENT REVOLUTION.

But are NOT ATTENDING.

:lulz:


:potd:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 03, 2011, 09:04:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
There is a lot to be said for the application of fast, brutal but ultimately effective action.  What we are seeing here is someone picking at a festering wound.

What sort of thing would that be? Anything I can think of would meet with such a backlash (terrorism, of course) it wouldn't be funny. And I bet the media could spin it to calm people down again.

I see more in the thing you said a while back, that any kind of protest movement won't / can't / hasn't shown to be effective unless there is some political voice behind it as well, explaining, being the mouth of the group, as it were. I think you said this in relation to the London Riots.
But it goes for the Teaparty as well, astroturf as they may be, those mindless zombies with the stupid signs, they are (nearly) enough to affect political change because there is a well-oiled political propaganda machine behind it.

But then, there is nobody in the US to be that voice, is there? Or is there?

Without people making the statements, it'll go nowhere, I mean, it's obvious, this goes for pretty much all protests I've seen anywhere, half the people don't even know why they are there, some are there because they are angry at something else, and only about 2-5% are able to really articulate wtf this is all about.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 03, 2011, 09:19:35 PM
a little bit about todays' bridge shenanigans:

Quote from: http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/jp-morgan-chase-donates-4-6-million-to-nypd-on-eve-of-protests/Today, OccupyWallStreet decided to march across the Brooklyn Bridge (a proud New York tradition) to Chase Manhattan Plaza in Brooklyn. Reports in the media indicate that the police at first seemed to be encouraging the protestors not only to cross the bridge, but were walking in front of the crowd, seemingly escorting them across. Over 700 of the marchers were arrested, and the media has a rather amusing "he said, she said" account, with OccupyWallStreet claiming entrapment and the cops batting their baby blues and trying to look innocent.

We simply don't know whether the police would have behaved one iota differently in the absence of the JP Morgan donation. But it raises the troubling perspective that they might have.


and a peek behind the curtain of the NY Times:

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/new-york-times-alters-its-lead-story-about-protests/

(http://disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/nytimes.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 03, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
What I am seeing here is very promising, because it's escalating. Once escalation passes a certain point, it becomes almost impossible to stop because efforts to stop it feed into it. The only way to stop escalation is to conscientiously ignore it as a form of suppression, and that tactic, which has been effective for decades, is no longer working.

The next tactic after ignoring it is to try to control it by cooperating with it, in which the authorities put on a show of allowing/abetting the protestors. "See? We are with you, guiding and protecting you until you get bored and go home".

That could work, but if at any point there is any kind of altercation of any kind, and it's more or less a guarantee that there will be, then the tension bubble will pop. The protests are on the cusp of being meaningful... if even a third of the people joining the Occupy groups actually show up, it is going to be a very tense situation for the affected cities. If the police attempt to control the protest through intimidation or violence, it is almost a guarantee that not only will the mob turn ugly, but also that more people will join in.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
My personal preference would be for a two-tiered approach.

Tier one would be the street level protest.  Only, this would be an actual occupation.  Take over the New York Stock Exchange.  Occupy the offices of Goldman Sachs etc  Down the power generators which supply energy to the offices of Wall Street plutocrats, or better yet, cut their internet connections off.  All of this would be non-violent (though it would be nearing the edge of that), cost the plutocrats real money and actually get them quite afraid.

Tier two would be the political level.  That's the more difficult one, due to the US's advanced political psychopathy.  Here, you need to connect the street level occupation with sympathetic politicians, to bolster and support them against a system that is really geared them to be inactive (and to provide a useful knife-to-the-throat should they consider defecting from the cause, like we discussed on the board in relation to Liz Warren).  Here, it becomes a lot less easier to see what is to be done.  Either you can work in reformist mode, but that will only work for so long.  Eventually, such a movement would likely have to engage in Tea Party-esque holding the nation hostage, threatening to stall the entire political process unless one's agenda is passed.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 03, 2011, 09:29:35 PM
Occupying private property would be trespassing, and taking out generators and internet would be vandalism. There is no good way to publicly organize those illegal actions.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2011, 09:31:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 03, 2011, 09:29:35 PM
Occupying private property would be trespassing, and taking out generators and internet would be vandalism. There is no good way to publicly organize those illegal actions.



Didnt seem to unduly trouble them in France, Greece etc
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 03, 2011, 09:32:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
My personal preference would be for a two-tiered approach.

ironically enough, Kalle Lasn (the spag behind Adbusters and, indirectly, these protests) agrees with this method. In his terrible book Culture Jam, Lasn describes what he calls "the jaws of change" - he says that to get anything done, to change the status quo, you need two angles working in concert. Below, you have grassroots movements run by regular shmucks, and above, you need some more entrenched support. A serious investor or government sponsor, for example. Somebody with political currency.



ETA: and while he doesn't explicitly advocate it, I suspect Lasn thinks that the lower jaw can't do its job without some seriously disruptive (but nonviolent) civil disobedience. One thing he advocates in Culture Jam is that we, as consumers, need to act as a monetary penalty for corporate behavior we don't like. Make it costly for them to screw us.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 03, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
The next tactic after ignoring it is to try to control it by cooperating with it, in which the authorities put on a show of allowing/abetting the protestors. "See? We are with you, guiding and protecting you until you get bored and go home".

Yep.  If the democrats had had any sense at all in 1968, they would have had the national guard go in to Lincoln Park to "protect" the demonstrators from the cops...The same way they sent a military hospital unit to Woodstock.  It's awful hard to stay angry with The Man, when he's holding off 300 Chicago PD apes, or treating your squashed foot in a tent surgery.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 03, 2011, 10:12:32 PM
Civilisation is too far away for me to participate.  I'd be down with occupy Wal-Mart, though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 10:13:09 PM
Quote from: rong on October 03, 2011, 10:12:32 PM
Civilisation is too far away for me to participate.  I'd be down with occupy Wal-Mart, though.

Do they have Wal-Marts in New Zealand?   :?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 03, 2011, 10:21:46 PM
Maybe my misspelling mislead you? But I'm not that far from civilization.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 04, 2011, 12:50:27 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2011, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 03, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
The next tactic after ignoring it is to try to control it by cooperating with it, in which the authorities put on a show of allowing/abetting the protestors. "See? We are with you, guiding and protecting you until you get bored and go home".

Yep.  If the democrats had had any sense at all in 1968, they would have had the national guard go in to Lincoln Park to "protect" the demonstrators from the cops...The same way they sent a military hospital unit to Woodstock.  It's awful hard to stay angry with The Man, when he's holding off 300 Chicago PD apes, or treating your squashed foot in a tent surgery.

OR, PERHAPS, the Marines?  :lulz: http://www.newsnet14.com/?p=81888
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 01:34:53 AM
i think this Reddit thread is what started the Marines coming in..
I'm hoping a shit ton of them show up.  and then i hope that the protestors slooowly up the ante to push the envelope with the cops while not alienating the Marines.

Quote from: Iptuous on October 03, 2011, 04:01:36 AM

Also, there's a reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/kwtjl/calling_all_military_veterans_of_reddit_we_took/) where some Marine veterans are planning on joining the protestors to protect them from police.  It appears that the OP and 15 other Marines are going, but more in the thread said they would join.  if there becomes a sizable group of Marine veterans standing off with police, that could get interesting....

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 04, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
I was thinking it would be pretty cool if, at a certain time and date, in a show of solidarity, American gun owners fired shots into the air.  A "shot heard round the world" so to speak.  I think it could be a very powerful message, but without the right "legalese" in the "call to action" it could go horribly wrong.

Sorry about all the commas and quotes.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on October 04, 2011, 12:35:04 PM
Quote from: rong on October 04, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
I was thinking it would be pretty cool if, at a certain time and date, in a show of solidarity, American gun owners fired shots into the air.  A "shot heard round the world" so to speak.  I think it could be a very powerful message, but without the right "legalese" in the "call to action" it could go horribly wrong.

Sorry about all the commas and quotes.

Yep. Just word it right and it couldn't possibly go horribly wrong.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 04, 2011, 01:22:08 PM
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/10/03/erin-burnett-seriously-wall-street.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

:lol:  I love Erin Burnett.  Really missed her on CNBC, but glad CNN has given her a show of her own.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trippinprincezz13 on October 04, 2011, 04:35:18 PM
Quote from: rong on October 04, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
I was thinking it would be pretty cool if, at a certain time and date, in a show of solidarity, American gun owners fired shots into the air.  A "shot heard round the world" so to speak.  I think it could be a very powerful message, but without the right "legalese" in the "call to action" it could go horribly wrong.

Sorry about all the commas and quotes.

And if everyone involved remembers those bullets have to land somewhere, eventually. Don't just fly up into space, ya know.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/i9wet.jpg)

the comments on this image at m[c]s are mostly about how this protest fails because there are drum circles
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 04, 2011, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/i9wet.jpg)

the comments on this image at m[c]s are mostly about how this protest fails because there are drum circles

Regardless, that's a great photograph.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 04, 2011, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: Net on October 04, 2011, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/i9wet.jpg)

the comments on this image at m[c]s are mostly about how this protest fails because there are drum circles

Regardless, that's a great photograph.

I like the guy on the right, you can tell he's thinking that if he ignores it, it won't ever happen. The guy on the left looks like he is thinking about it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 04, 2011, 05:37:48 PM
Quote from: The Rev on October 04, 2011, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: Net on October 04, 2011, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/i9wet.jpg)

the comments on this image at m[c]s are mostly about how this protest fails because there are drum circles

Regardless, that's a great photograph.

I like the guy on the right, you can tell he's thinking that if he ignores it, it won't ever happen. The guy on the left looks like he is thinking about it.

Yeah, the body language is almost too perfect.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 04, 2011, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: rong on October 04, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
I was thinking it would be pretty cool if, at a certain time and date, in a show of solidarity, American gun owners fired shots into the air.  A "shot heard round the world" so to speak.  I think it could be a very powerful message, but without the right "legalese" in the "call to action" it could go horribly wrong.

Sorry about all the commas and quotes.

Wow, THAT'S not a completely retarded idea for too many reasons to enumerate.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2011, 06:32:00 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: rong on October 04, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
I was thinking it would be pretty cool if, at a certain time and date, in a show of solidarity, American gun owners fired shots into the air.  A "shot heard round the world" so to speak.  I think it could be a very powerful message, but without the right "legalese" in the "call to action" it could go horribly wrong.

Sorry about all the commas and quotes.

Wow, THAT'S not a completely retarded idea for too many reasons to enumerate.

I think it's a great idea, if it's restricted to Texas and Phoenix.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 04, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 04, 2011, 01:22:08 PM
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/10/03/erin-burnett-seriously-wall-street.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

:lol:  I love Erin Burnett.  Really missed her on CNBC, but glad CNN has given her a show of her own.

Wow, she's a stupid cunty tool of the 1% who completely misses the point. What a puppet.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 04, 2011, 06:36:41 PM
Actually, I take it back. She's not stupid, she knows EXACTLY what she's doing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2011, 06:42:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 04, 2011, 01:22:08 PM
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/10/03/erin-burnett-seriously-wall-street.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

:lol:  I love Erin Burnett.  Really missed her on CNBC, but glad CNN has given her a show of her own.

Wow, she's a stupid cunty tool of the 1% who completely misses the point. What a puppet.

BUT NIGEL, DIDNT YOU KNOW TAXPAYERS MADE MONEY ON THE WALL STREET BAILOUT???

(ignore that they only actually made money on TARP...one minor part of a much larger bailout...and, oh yeah, some fuckers in Congress are like "government spending is socialism and evil" and so refused to spend the money in their states, so actually, the Treasury made money on the bailouts...and then lost it due to the giant black hole of further loans to financial institutions and neverending foreign war.  But MONEY WAS MADE!  Stupid hippies can go home now, everything is OK.  The 9% unemployment rate is just a temporary blip, a hiccup in the natural order of things.  Sucks if you starve due to it, though, I guess.  Oh well).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 04, 2011, 01:22:08 PM
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/10/03/erin-burnett-seriously-wall-street.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

:lol:  I love Erin Burnett.  Really missed her on CNBC, but glad CNN has given her a show of her own.

Okay ... what exactly did you like about that segment? From where I'm sitting, all she communicated was that she didn't understand the protests in the slightest.

It's summed up pretty well by the title of the segment "Seriously??" - that is to say, her objection is purely tonal, not substantive. It's like debating with somebody who's only rebuttal is "Come on, really?"

First half of the video: commentary that the protest didn't look protesty enough. They were wearing DESIGNER CLOTHES. OMG.

Second bit: she cherry picks an unemployed software developer and informs him that taxpayers made money on the bailout. He says he did not know that, and she basically rolls her eyes at him. This is irrelevant because (a) the protests are barely about the bailouts, (b) the dude's unemployed -- is this supposed to comfort him?

Third bit: A factoid about how much money taxpayers made on the bailout. Who is this addressing? Do you know anybody who feels that they "made money" on the bailouts? She is not investigating the reasons for the protests, she's just reframing them as a non-issue. And in doing so, she chooses to do a style column instead of journalism.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 04, 2011, 06:57:06 PM
My reply to you will be a pager at least Cram, but I can't do it right this moment.  I'll sit down when I get home and hammer it out.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 07:02:51 PM
it's all good!  :)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 04, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 04, 2011, 06:57:06 PM
My reply to you will be a pager at least Cram, but I can't do it right this moment.  I'll sit down when I get home and hammer it out.



I hope you'll also address the points that Cain made. Because right now I am failing to see how any thinking person could feel anything but insulted by the steaming pile of corporate dung she extruded from her mouth in that segment.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 08:21:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2011, 06:32:00 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: rong on October 04, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
I was thinking it would be pretty cool if, at a certain time and date, in a show of solidarity, American gun owners fired shots into the air.  A "shot heard round the world" so to speak.  I think it could be a very powerful message, but without the right "legalese" in the "call to action" it could go horribly wrong.

Sorry about all the commas and quotes.

Wow, THAT'S not a completely retarded idea for too many reasons to enumerate.

I think it's a great idea, if it's restricted to Texas and Phoenix.

How would we distinguish it from all the other shots in the air, though?

hold on.... it's 2:15. i gotta go shoot the Westminster quarters on the church bell with m'wheelguns. brb.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 09:03:57 PM
this thread sparked some thoughts, which I've posted here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30438.0
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 04, 2011, 09:08:26 PM
It was recently explained to me that I live in "the Texas of the Midwest"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 09:12:55 PM
Quote from: rong on October 04, 2011, 09:08:26 PM
It was recently explained to me that I live in "the Texas of the Midwest"

Better than living in the midwest of Texas....
(that's what direction we point when we shoot into the air.)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 04, 2011, 09:23:25 PM
I would've expected the direction to be "up"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 09:31:42 PM
We may be slightly off kilter in Texas, but we know enough not to shoot straight up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 09:31:42 PM
We may be slightly off kilter in Texas, but we know enough not to shoot straight up.

It's OK if the bullet hits someone else.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2011, 10:02:19 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 09:31:42 PM
We may be slightly off kilter in Texas, but we know enough not to shoot straight up.

And this is a fucking shame and a disgrace.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 04, 2011, 10:10:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2011, 10:02:19 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 09:31:42 PM
We may be slightly off kilter in Texas, but we know enough not to shoot straight up.

And this is a fucking shame and a disgrace.

Shoot straight up, hand the gun to an enemy, walk away.

FFS, we have to teach you kids everything.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on October 04, 2011, 11:10:57 PM
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

The proposed list of demands for Occupy Wall Street. (My opinion of "Let's protest, THEN decide what we're protesting FOR is withheld, for the sake of the children."

Includes:
QuoteDemand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

:facepalm:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2011, 11:16:24 PM
What's so stupid about that?  Apart from the fact it's unachievable.

The simple fact is, paying off debt is economically unproductive activity, in the long run.  When debt becomes unreasonably large, when people are being pushed into absolute povery to pay their debts, it is crushing potential and should be put aside.  The Third World spent decades paying off the debts of dictators, and look at those poor bastards.  Debt repayment turned Africa, one of the richest continents in the world in terms of resources, into an economic black hole in the global economy (corruption, by the same dictators taking out the loans, also contributed).

Athens became the city we know, the classical Athens of philosophy and democracy, precisely because the citizenry rose up, deposed their tyrants and their new leader, Solon, forgave all debts.  Within a couple of decades, Athenians were dominating the Aegean sea and many of their markets.

Debt relief would be a jolt in the arm to the global economy.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 04, 2011, 11:17:40 PM
yeah, i don't think that's a facepalm at all. i'm all for it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on October 04, 2011, 11:21:40 PM
Oh, I'd LOVE to have my debt wiped out, don't get me wrong.

However, I fail to see how getting all debt "on the planet" abolished will be accomplished.  As you said, Cain, unachievable.

Also, there's the bit where I believe that I DID borrow the fucking money, I need to pay it back.

Now...  Set it up so that all interest is on debt is capped at 5% so people have a chance to actually pay the money OWED instead of interest forever, and I'm all for it.  THAT I can see happening...  But we'll never see universal debt forgiveness.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 04, 2011, 11:54:20 PM
Quote from: Luna on October 04, 2011, 11:21:40 PM
Oh, I'd LOVE to have my debt wiped out, don't get me wrong.

However, I fail to see how getting all debt "on the planet" abolished will be accomplished.  As you said, Cain, unachievable.

Also, there's the bit where I believe that I DID borrow the fucking money, I need to pay it back.

Now...  Set it up so that all interest is on debt is capped at 5% so people have a chance to actually pay the money OWED instead of interest forever, and I'm all for it.  THAT I can see happening...  But we'll never see universal debt forgiveness.

Self-enforced double standard when you have been forced into a position that it is nearly to get out of by paying your debt off? This is why we declared bankruptcy, we applied for a government bailout and never heard a word back.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 05, 2011, 12:07:09 AM
I don't really like the punitive approach to making bad decisions under a bad system where there is little choice.

I vastly prefer a solution-based approach. Our governments have managed to fuck shit up royally, but taking the view that we made that bed and now we have to lie in it is profoundly unproductive.

I am far more interested in the question of what can be done to fix it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 05, 2011, 12:17:28 AM
I don't understand why mortgage interest is tax deductible, but credit card interest is not
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 05, 2011, 12:55:48 AM
I'd first like to say that the following reply is in no way a personal remark on you Cram.  You've got some really good stuff bouncing around in that head of yours and I've questioned a few of the things I've learned over the years by reading your posts.  Though we disagree on a few things know that anything I write below is not a personal attack in any way, even as it may attack what you think and believe.  When I use the term "you" it's not to say you specifically, but it does point to the general feel I get from a group that exists on this board, and if it seems like I'm talking to you (any of you) then I probably am.  If it sounds aggressive, that's because that's the easiest way I found to get it out of my head.  See also O:KM & Effective Methods of Ranting.  (I'm sure it's here somewhere)

The first thing I'd like to note is that it's perfectly ok to make fun of a protest movement as a whole, or even just the fringe elements of it, just so long as you don't agree with the movement.

That's what I took from the posts following my share of that clip.  You agree with them so making fun of them: pointing out someone who is uninformed about an issue that is part of the protest, making funny comments about their clothing and accessories, pointing out that they are protesting corporate excess while spending their money on major corporations, buying Gatorade and walking around with top tech, it's all off limits.

(I have to admit, a bunch of unemployed 20 somethings wearing designer clothes, using G3 phones and carrying macbooks is pretty funny.  I don't buy designer clothing, I have a 3 year old phone, my laptop is a PC I built myself and getting on in years and I've only ever been unemployed 3 months in the last 10 years)

Please to see every single thread about the Tea Party on this board, and apply the same logic. 

And you know what?  That's fine.  It's perfectly ok, just so long as you're not putting yourself out there as an impartial judge sitting in the middle of the bell curve, laughing at the extremes.  When you stop laughing at the extremes, you are one, or are becoming one.

That's not to say I'm using a broad brush here.  Many of the people here (Cain, you come to mind specifically) are more than able to point out ridiculousness even when you probably agree with the sentiment.

So what did I like about the segment?  I'll address everything you posted below but broadly speaking, I liked it because it was pretty damn funny coming from a financial analyst who's made her living talking about financial matters and is informed enough for CNBC and CNN to have employed her for many years.  I'll admit I'm partial to her in much the same way you may be partial to Olberman or Matthews.  I am at a loss to post a left leaning financial analyst to compare her to because that's a species that I've never encountered.  If anyone knows of one I'd love to read their take on the whole thing.

QuoteOkay ... what exactly did you like about that segment? From where I'm sitting, all she communicated was that she didn't understand the protests in the slightest.

That's the thing, no one really does because it's not coherent.  It has no central message other than "we're unemployed and we're angry"
which COULD be a message, except that the people who's attention they're trying to get have likely been unemployed and angry before in their lives and they solved it by compromising on their wants in favor of their needs and doing whatever they had to do to keep the lights on.  They didn't go join a protest and they can't now even if they wanted to because they'd loose their job to someone who was more hungry for it.  That, IMO, is as it should be, but that's another post entirely.

QuoteIt's summed up pretty well by the title of the segment "Seriously??" - that is to say, her objection is purely tonal, not substantive. It's like debating with somebody who's only rebuttal is "Come on, really?"

It's a play on the SNL skit "Really?" but I expect you worked that out.  It IS tonal, the way humor is supposed to be.  It was substantive by picking "one from the crowd" and pointing out to him that one of the things that is commonly misunderstood by people who protests against TARP. (I'm one of them FTR.  I thought the institutions mired in those securities should have failed and been bought up at a lower price by people with real capital, as it would have been without a central bank to intervene on behalf of their buddies.  The fact that the Treasury made money on it does nothing to sway me from that.)

If this was not substantive then the Matt Taibbi article in Rolling Stone where he talked with one couple who were the perfect storm of hypocrisy as small government people, and implied they were indicative of the entire protest group, should be dismissed on the same grounds.

QuoteFirst half of the video: commentary that the protest didn't look protesty enough. They were wearing DESIGNER CLOTHES. OMG.

Talked about that earlier. 

QuoteSecond bit: she cherry picks an unemployed software developer and informs him that taxpayers made money on the bailout. He says he did not know that, and she basically rolls her eyes at him. This is irrelevant because (a) the protests are barely about the bailouts, (b) the dude's unemployed -- is this supposed to comfort him?

Again, pulling someone from the crowd (and really, she could have been much less impartial and pulled one of the "bring wall street to a halt" types, if she'd really wanted to color the sentiment a shade of crazy) to gauge the sentiment is only ok and funny if you disagree with what the group is protesting.  Got It.

I didn't interpret her follow up as rolling her eyes at him, but again, I am biased toward her way of giving information.  It's her PROFESSION to give information like this to people who need it, to people without it, and to people who dig in their heels and reject it because it does not fit into their world view. 

If the protest is barely about the bailouts, then what the hell are they about?  If the firms they are protesting against (investment banks) had been allowed to fail as they would in a system without government safeguards, the billion and millionairs they are protesting against would have found themselves homeless, or at the very least, in bankruptcy and very close to their same situation, except for their networking contacts.  They're barking up the wrong god damned building.  They should be in D.C. or at every Federal Reserve Bank building in the country.

QuoteThird bit: A factoid about how much money taxpayers made on the bailout. Who is this addressing? Do you know anybody who feels that they "made money" on the bailouts? She is not investigating the reasons for the protests, she's just reframing them as a non-issue. And in doing so, she chooses to do a style column instead of journalism.

It's addressing the misinformation that taxpayers paid these guy's salary and fueled giant bonuses on our dime.  As much as I hate to admit it, the Treasury made money on the thing, and that's a bad precedent IMO.   No, the guy on the street isn't going to feel that, unless they had money invested with one of those major banks and didn't move it around before the crash took a big chunk of it.  Otherwise, yes.  He's going to think it was a good idea.  Now that I think about it, I'll change what I wrote to say yes, I do feel that I "made money" from the bailouts because (and this is hard for me to admit, because I was asleep at the wheel a bit in 08, having just had a kid) my entire investment didn't go up in smoke and electrons.  The money I had tied up in several mutual funds didn't completely disappear and had a place to go.  I knew from the start that the money was a gamble.  That's how a risk/reward system works.  I still think that collectively, as a species, we'd have learned a lot more had the banks been allowed to fail. 

I think I addressed all of your points.  This entire post took me an hour to write and refine.  PickleGF even called me from her class to ask if I was still writing the same post.    :lol:

I've been feeling a bit nostalgic for some old C&C:Tiberian Sun and had plans to do that tonight, so any ignoring of replies TTP are not personal.  I will not come back to it until tomorrow at 7am and I'll probably be a little bitchy.  I'll try and not be bitchy in my replies. 

TRY.

[ETA: Cain, I agree with you on the jubilee, but only if it's understood that we can never allow that amount of debt to be a driving force for economic growth, ever again.  I have low hopes that would ever happen.]
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 05, 2011, 01:14:09 AM
just a quick note to say thanks for the detailed reply, pickles. I can appreciate where you're coming from, and I'll return the favor a bit later. Presently, all these guys named Sam Adams want to hang out and I don't want to be a bad host.  :wink:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on October 05, 2011, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: NigelI don't really like the punitive approach to making bad decisions under a bad system where there is little choice.

I vastly prefer a solution-based approach. Our governments have managed to fuck shit up royally, but taking the view that we made that bed and now we have to lie in it is profoundly unproductive.

I am far more interested in the question of what can be done to fix it.

(And in general to the 'debt forgiveness' side of things)

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Mostly because my dad told me he expects my generation to spend our lives paying off the debt his generation made, much like the post-WW2 generation spent their lives paying off war debt. This is entirely fair, he says, because we reaped the benefit of that debt as we were growing up. Not, entirely sure I buy into that argument.

Cain's right - and he and I have both said it before on this forum - wiping out the debt, completely, and starting over is a very sensible idea. There are massive logistical problems with organizing it, but I personally don't believe that I will live long enough to see the economy recover if we're labouring under this debt burden. My children might, but I wouldn't like to guess where we'll be in twenty years time. Bearing in mind that resources are limited, and we're running towards the end of those reserves, the cost of basic living is going to massively increase right alongside us ploughing billions upon billions back into the pockets of our debtors.

A debt writeoff would probably be catastrophic in the short term, due to the fact that many banks would go down, and even if personal savings were secured, they'd take the ability of businesses to borrow with them - something which would take a fair number of businesses who do not have enough money stockpiled to pay their payrolls. However, from where I'm sitting, if you need to borrow huge amount of money just to meet the obligations you have to your staff, then your business is basically dead and on life support anyway. It is a legitimate concern, though, and I'm not sure how you'd get through that short-term pain.

Obviously, there's also the issue with capturing the debate and actually convincing people that this path is an acceptable one. If I remember my figures right, all the money in the world is equal to approximately 1/5th of world debt. Which means if you gathered it all in one place, down to the last cent, congratulations! You can pay off 1/5th of what we owe ourselves.

The situation is patently insane. What we need to do is start discussing it, loudly, and get politicians to discuss it... after a certain point, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If the banks even suspected that it were to be a remote possibility, their share prices would begin to dive. As they dive, the effect of the debt would be felt more harshly (because banks will squeeze to try and recoup their losses), which will feed into the rhetoric about scrapping the debt altogether... which will cause the share price to dive, etc.

... that's my thought, anyway. It is getting that initial legitimacy to the idea which is hard. Since the vast majority of people would benefit hugely if they suddenly owned their house and had no outstanding debts, it will become attractive very quickly to the average person. But most people think it is just plain unrealistic. But we have eaten our elites in the past. This may actually be one of the few ways of bringing them low with comparatively little open bloodshed and violence. You'd think they'd be grateful!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2011, 08:23:07 AM
Elizabeth Warren has just called on the protestors to obey the law.  Not the police, just the protestors.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on October 05, 2011, 03:01:36 PM
You know who supports Occupy Wall Street? communists

Quote from: Chen WeihuaOne of the best-kept secrets in the United States over the past two weeks seems to be the protest on and near Wall Street in New York.
More than 1,000 people protested on the first day, September 17, marching and chanting slogans. Yet the demonstration, known as Occupy Wall Street, did not appear on the major networks' evening news or in major newspapers the next day.

The protest, now in its 14th day, only got limited coverage last Saturday when heavy-handed police arrested close to 100 people and pepper-sprayed several female demonstrators. But most coverage that day was not in-depth.

While there are many videos of harsh police action on the Internet, I have witnessed how the formerly helpful police patrolling the streets have suddenly resorted to force in Zuccotti Park, also known as Liberty Plaza, in Lower Manhattan.

In one scene, several policemen jumped on one skinny man who was not acting violently. They pushed him down and handcuffed him. Just five minutes later, a policeman waved his fist at a man. That day, seven people were arrested, with one suffering a serious leg injury.

Again, none of these incidents made the major networks' evening news or the major newspapers.

As a journalist, I have wondered why the so-called mainstream US media, which is either headquartered in New York or maintains a strong presence in the city, has chosen to ignore the prolonged demonstration since it started. Why have those journalists, who made their names covering various protests around the world, suddenly become silent in reporting the mass rally? That clearly does not match their enthusiasm to cover demonstrations in recent months in places such as North Africa and the Middle East.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2011-09/30/content_13823311.htm


:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 05, 2011, 05:26:41 PM
I haven't read it yet, but here's the OCCUPIED WALL STREET JOURNAL, the DIY newspaper which was distributed at the protests on Saturday.

I had a hard time finding a PDF of it, so the image quality is iffy. It looks like I'm the first one to upload it to scribd, which surprises me. EDIT: nm, found a copy on scribd.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/67613880/The-Occupied-Wall-Street-Journal

take a look, let us know what you think

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 05, 2011, 07:20:43 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 05, 2011, 12:55:48 AM
The first thing I'd like to note is that it's perfectly ok to make fun of a protest movement as a whole, or even just the fringe elements of it, just so long as you don't agree with the movement.

That's what I took from the posts following my share of that clip.  You agree with them so making fun of them: pointing out someone who is uninformed about an issue that is part of the protest, making funny comments about their clothing and accessories, pointing out that they are protesting corporate excess while spending their money on major corporations, buying Gatorade and walking around with top tech, it's all off limits.

I think I must watched that clip with the wrong expectations.

I thought she was reporting on the protests.

I totally didn't realize it was a humor piece.


Quote(I have to admit, a bunch of unemployed 20 somethings wearing designer clothes, using G3 phones and carrying macbooks is pretty funny.  I don't buy designer clothing, I have a 3 year old phone, my laptop is a PC I built myself and getting on in years and I've only ever been unemployed 3 months in the last 10 years)

There was this clip on fox news a few weeks ago examining "what poverty looks like". They framing the people complaining about poverty as a bunch of cry babies because they have luxuries like refrigerators and microwaves.

(http://www.theculturezone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/mhc-rectorpoor1.jpg)
(I love how they put the word "poor" in quotes, like "these guys are just PRETENDING to be poor. Do they think we're suckers? They're not even starving, lol!")

I get this sense that people think poor people are supposed to look like Tiny Tim or something. Like these protests would be valid if only the protesters looked a little more destitute. If they were limping around on a crutch and dying of cholera, then they'd have a point.

The unemployment rate is above 9%, but that's clearly not a big deal because these guys aren't wearing fingerless gloves and huddling around a trash can fire for warmth. "If these guys were REALLY poor, they would be wearing shittier clothes!" ---- in the end, you are dismissing the reality of the situation because it has the wrong aesthetics. It's like saying "This isn't a revolution - nobody's wearing berets!"

QuoteI'll admit I'm partial to her in much the same way you may be partial to Olberman or Matthews.  I am at a loss to post a left leaning financial analyst to compare her to because that's a species that I've never encountered.  If anyone knows of one I'd love to read their take on the whole thing.

I think you make some incorrect assumptions about me right here!  :lol:


QuoteThat's the thing, no one really does because it's not coherent.  It has no central message other than "we're unemployed and we're angry"
which COULD be a message, except that the people who's attention they're trying to get have likely been unemployed and angry before in their lives and they solved it by compromising on their wants in favor of their needs and doing whatever they had to do to keep the lights on.  They didn't go join a protest and they can't now even if they wanted to because they'd loose their job to someone who was more hungry for it.  That, IMO, is as it should be, but that's another post entirely.

I would be extremely surprised to find out that a significant number of the people who comprise the top 1% wealthiest have ever had to choose between luxury and food/electricity.

Your language here suggests you believe the protesters are merely unwilling to get jobs or make sacrifices.

The absurdly high unemployment rate is not a result of some personality defect that jobless people have. It's not like they're these losers who just need to man up and put their nose to the grindstone. The dollar is falling, jobs are moving overseas, cost of living is rising, should these guys just wait patiently with their hands folded until there are jobs again?


QuoteIt's a play on the SNL skit "Really?" but I expect you worked that out.  It IS tonal, the way humor is supposed to be.

Ah I missed the SNL reference. And I didn't realize Erin Burnett was a humor writer.

QuoteIt was substantive by picking "one from the crowd" and pointing out to him that one of the things that is commonly misunderstood by people who protests against TARP.

It's just kind of silly because the dude is at the protest because he doesn't have a job.

She suggested that he made money off of the bailout, and in her mind, this addressed his problem.

Then why is he at the protest?

QuoteAgain, pulling someone from the crowd (and really, she could have been much less impartial and pulled one of the "bring wall street to a halt" types, if she'd really wanted to color the sentiment a shade of crazy) to gauge the sentiment is only ok and funny if you disagree with what the group is protesting.  Got It.

But we don't actually hear the guy's opinion. She doesn't show his side of the story.

Her goal was to paint a picture of the protesters as uninformed, that's why she shows a clip of her explaining things to the protester rather than him explaining his position.

QuoteI didn't interpret her follow up as rolling her eyes at him, but again, I am biased toward her way of giving information.  It's her PROFESSION to give information like this to people who need it, to people without it, and to people who dig in their heels and reject it because it does not fit into their world view. 

that's a curious way to do journalism - usually a journalist ask somebody involved what's going on, rather than explaining it to them.  :p

btw the dismissive gesture occurs at 1:25


QuoteIf the protest is barely about the bailouts, then what the hell are they about?  If the firms they are protesting against (investment banks) had been allowed to fail as they would in a system without government safeguards, the billion and millionairs they are protesting against would have found themselves homeless, or at the very least, in bankruptcy and very close to their same situation, except for their networking contacts.  They're barking up the wrong god damned building.  They should be in D.C. or at every Federal Reserve Bank building in the country.

dude, after the tax payer funded bailout, AIG gave out 1.2 billion dollars in bonuses.

a lot of the signs I see people holding also protest the bailouts

QuoteIt's addressing the misinformation that taxpayers paid these guy's salary and fueled giant bonuses on our dime. 

Maybe I've been misinformed. I was under the impression that the fed gave zillions of dollars to bail out banks, who then gave massive bonuses to their employees.

In March 2009, Obama said, "It's hard to understand how derivative traders at AIG warranted any bonuses, much less $165 million in extra pay. How do they justify this outrage to the taxpayers who are keeping the company afloat?" and "In the last six months, AIG has received substantial sums from the U.S. Treasury. I've asked Secretary Geithner to use that leverage and pursue every legal avenue to block these bonuses and make the American taxpayers whole."

Is that a lie?

QuoteNow that I think about it, I'll change what I wrote to say yes, I do feel that I "made money" from the bailouts because (and this is hard for me to admit, because I was asleep at the wheel a bit in 08, having just had a kid) my entire investment didn't go up in smoke and electrons.  The money I had tied up in several mutual funds didn't completely disappear and had a place to go.  I knew from the start that the money was a gamble.  That's how a risk/reward system works.  I still think that collectively, as a species, we'd have learned a lot more had the banks been allowed to fail. 

So you think you made money, not because you actually have more of it, but because some other people lost money?

And when Erin Burnett says that the protesters are misinformed because taxpayers actually made money on the bailout, she really just means they didn't lose everything?

QuoteI've been feeling a bit nostalgic for some old C&C:Tiberian Sun and had plans to do that tonight

nice! oldschool gaming at its best
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 05, 2011, 07:30:45 PM
99.6% have a refrigerator and that's a GOOD THING. Having a fridge is a basic necessity for living. Maybe not like clean water and shelter, but the next thing. Especially if you live on a tight budget, you need a fridge, otherwise you'd be throwing away food all the time.

I know preaching to the choir here.

Funny how they didn't say 99.6 has a TV, right? Because the numbers are probably pretty high as well. Except to a corporate media entity like Fox, a TV is more a basic life necessity than a fridge :) It doesn't understand these hu-mans. They just need to watch, not eat, wtf?!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 05, 2011, 07:33:59 PM
Quote from: DPthe people who's attention they're trying to get have likely been unemployed and angry before in their lives and they solved it by compromising on their wants in favor of their needs and doing whatever they had to do to keep the lights on.

right after I wrote my reply, somebody linked me to this onion article, which has a cute symmetry to the above bit

Layoffs Are Necessary If We Want To Keep The Lights On,' Says CEO Halfway Through Tasting Menu (http://www.theonion.com/articles/layoffs-are-necessary-if-we-want-to-keep-the-light,26250/)


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 05, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
woah, have you guys seen this clip?

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/80727/wall-street-demonstrators-meet-champagne-club-during-protest

Protesters march down wall street

The traders come to the balconies to drink champagne and laugh at them

pretty cocky!


                   :asshat:
:angrymob:  :angrymob:  :angrymob:  :angrymob:

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 05, 2011, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 05, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
woah, have you guys seen this clip?

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/80727/wall-street-demonstrators-meet-champagne-club-during-protest

Protesters march down wall street

The traders come to the balconies to drink champagne and laugh at them

pretty cocky!


                   :asshat:
:angrymob:  :angrymob:  :angrymob:  :angrymob:



Why the hell not?  I would.  It's not like the hippies are going to DO anything, right?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 05, 2011, 08:56:07 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 05, 2011, 07:30:45 PM
99.6% have a refrigerator and that's a GOOD THING. Having a fridge is a basic necessity for living. Maybe not like clean water and shelter, but the next thing. Especially if you live on a tight budget, you need a fridge, otherwise you'd be throwing away food all the time.

I know preaching to the choir here.

Funny how they didn't say 99.6 has a TV, right? Because the numbers are probably pretty high as well. Except to a corporate media entity like Fox, a TV is more a basic life necessity than a fridge :) It doesn't understand these hu-mans. They just need to watch, not eat, wtf?!

Ugh, I know! WTF people. Plus, if you don't have a fridge and a way to heat food, you end up having to buy vastly more expensive pre-prepared food in order to eat.

Yes, the poor mostly also have indoor plumbing, as well.

The thing is, due to housing codes, the urban poor HAVE to have these things. It's not like one of the rental options in NYC is "dirt floor shack".

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2011, 09:00:54 PM
99.8% of the poor still have both of their kidneys.

Clearly, they don't want to be rich, on the extremely lucrative organ black market.  They just aren't trying hard enough
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 05, 2011, 09:11:04 PM
:lulz:

You know it's funny.  I hear Teabaggin types talking up one streak and down another that it's those "damned welfare mothers" (!) and all their ilk that are ruining the cuntry.

Oh fuck off, already.  At least a quarter of the fucking Teabagger Nayshun is ON assistance of one kind or another--just by virtue of their fucking demographics. So diaf, assholes.  A fucking refrigerator does NOT a rich boy make.

As for Wall Street not giving a fuck...that's par for the course.  The protestors chose a target that really couldn't give a flying finger about their issues.  I know the media loves it, but Wall Street is only amused and feeling entitled.

But I still say I like them doing SOMEthing rather than NOTHING.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on October 05, 2011, 09:15:34 PM
one man doing stand up comedy for the Occupy peeps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaFdIa-F2GM&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on October 05, 2011, 09:49:25 PM
There's an Occupy here, which I kind of want to go to. Tomorrow and Thursday are occupying the federal building (3:30-5:30, iirc) and Friday and Saturday are our big strip mall-y thing (early afternoon). I'm not sure what there is to occupy there, except maybe the movie theater. Not sure if I will yet.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2011, 09:51:16 PM
I'm going to declare an Occupy my PANCE day in London.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on October 05, 2011, 09:55:28 PM
Quote from: Jenne on October 05, 2011, 09:11:04 PM
:lulz:

You know it's funny.  I hear Teabaggin types talking up one streak and down another that it's those "damned welfare mothers" (!) and all their ilk that are ruining the cuntry.

Oh fuck off, already.  At least a quarter of the fucking Teabagger Nayshun is ON assistance of one kind or another--just by virtue of their fucking demographics. So diaf, assholes.  A fucking refrigerator does NOT a rich boy make.

As for Wall Street not giving a fuck...that's par for the course.  The protestors chose a target that really couldn't give a flying finger about their issues.  I know the media loves it, but Wall Street is only amused and feeling entitled.

But I still say I like them doing SOMEthing rather than NOTHING.



If the protestors were engaging in actual occupying and systemic disruption wall street would definitely give a fuck.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on October 05, 2011, 09:59:47 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 05, 2011, 09:51:16 PM
I'm going to declare an Occupy my PANCE day in London.
:lulz: I'm totally not expecting it to do anything, but at least I got off the couch, so to speak.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2011, 12:24:20 AM
From the Chicago protests:

(http://i.imgur.com/jnyel.jpg)

Yeah, not helping your case there, guys.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 12:24:20 AM
From the Chicago protests:

(http://i.imgur.com/jnyel.jpg)

Yeah, not helping your case there, guys.

It's really just a matter of time, isn't it?

They WANT class warfare.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2011, 12:26:50 AM
It's not quite "let them eat cake", but it's not far off, either.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 12:27:43 AM
or maybe there's more people that got the same idea as me, that what these protests need, is a bunch of loud pricks in business suits :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 01:29:45 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 12:27:43 AM
or maybe there's more people that got the same idea as me, that what these protests need, is a bunch of loud pricks in business suits :lol:

Oh HELL yes. Agent provocateurs can work for both sides.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/29436/

Fabius suggests here that the OWS movement is going to go the way of the Tea Party, and get co-opted.  This may have already started, with the Unions getting in on the act.  There is, apparently a very savvy and organised core group handling the media aspects of the protest, which would be the perfect point to takeover from.

Because the protests are essentially low-investment, low risk activities, they pose little real threat to Wall Street on their own.  Which means the OWS would need to forge political alliances to push their agenda.  I'm sure a few "progressive" and "reformist" Democrats in the mould of Elizabeth Warren are already preparing to win some campaigns on the back of this.  And then, as always, do nothing once in office.

Thus, OWS becomes the Tea Party of the left (only probably less racist).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 06, 2011, 03:20:00 AM
Called it :)

Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 03, 2011, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 02, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

The moment they realize the problem is too large to ignore it, there will be accusations of terrorism, and also most likely some horrific violence which will be blamed on the Occupiers. I predict a bombing. This will be used to "justify" extreme police violence against the Occupiers.
I think what will happen if it starts to get too large, and I'm already seeing signs of this, is the movement will be co-opted and neutered by mainstream establishment Democrats.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on October 06, 2011, 03:28:35 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/29436/

Fabius suggests here that the OWS movement is going to go the way of the Tea Party, and get co-opted.  This may have already started, with the Unions getting in on the act.  There is, apparently a very savvy and organised core group handling the media aspects of the protest, which would be the perfect point to takeover from.

Because the protests are essentially low-investment, low risk activities, they pose little real threat to Wall Street on their own.  Which means the OWS would need to forge political alliances to push their agenda.  I'm sure a few "progressive" and "reformist" Democrats in the mould of Elizabeth Warren are already preparing to win some campaigns on the back of this.  And then, as always, do nothing once in office.

Thus, OWS becomes the Tea Party of the left (only probably less racist).




Quote from: Nigel on October 05, 2011, 09:15:48 PM
That was fascinating, and I may be a bad man because my first thought was "Ooooh, how can I use this to my our advantage?"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Suu on October 06, 2011, 03:34:30 AM
We had this discussion today after class.

Great, America! You're protesting! Now what?

...You're looking like a bunch of filthy hippies and punk rockers while doing so.

Of COURSE inbred middle Americans are going to laugh at you when you're on TV getting your head kicked in, shitdick. DRESS LIKE THEM. Dress like you went to Texas A&M. Wear a collared shirt! Look a bit more PRESENTABLE and maybe you'll get better results............................................but no promises.


Question: Now that we've established that we're the 3rd Estate, when do we get our Tennis Court Oath? Because this better not be it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 03:45:38 AM
http://www.launch.is/blog/be-the-1-chamath-airbnb-occupy-wall-street-and-the-choice-mi.html

Relevant to this thread and better worded than I possibly could.

prediction: I'll still get shit for it, and so will he.  Hell, he has, in the comments.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:13:48 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 03:45:38 AM
http://www.launch.is/blog/be-the-1-chamath-airbnb-occupy-wall-street-and-the-choice-mi.html

Relevant to this thread and better worded than I possibly could.

prediction: I'll still get shit for it, and so will he.  Hell, he has, in the comments.



:lulz: Relevant if you just pleasingly ignore the facts. Wow, that was one of the stupidest things I've read in a while. I... wow. Yeah. Um. As a startup business owner (I've owned three) who was married to a business owner who worked for startups, with friends who mostly own their own startups, I can tell you that the reason that article is retarded magical-thinking illogical bullshit is right IN THE FUCKING TITLE.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:15:04 AM
At some point I might have to properly rip it to shreds using logic and actual startup business statistics, but right now I'm too busy facepalming.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:16:27 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 05, 2011, 12:55:48 AM
(I have to admit, a bunch of unemployed 20 somethings wearing designer clothes, using G3 phones and carrying macbooks is pretty funny.  I don't buy designer clothing, I have a 3 year old phone, my laptop is a PC I built myself and getting on in years and I've only ever been unemployed 3 months in the last 10 years)

QuoteNow that I think about it, I'll change what I wrote to say yes, I do feel that I "made money" from the bailouts because (and this is hard for me to admit, because I was asleep at the wheel a bit in 08, having just had a kid) my entire investment didn't go up in smoke and electrons.  The money I had tied up in several mutual funds didn't completely disappear and had a place to go.  I knew from the start that the money was a gamble.  That's how a risk/reward system works.  I still think that collectively, as a species, we'd have learned a lot more had the banks been allowed to fail. 

So you never buy nice things but you have money to throw at things like investments and mutual funds. You're not poor, you're cheap.

QuoteIf the protest is barely about the bailouts, then what the hell are they about?  If the firms they are protesting against (investment banks) had been allowed to fail as they would in a system without government safeguards, the billion and millionairs they are protesting against would have found themselves homeless, or at the very least, in bankruptcy and very close to their same situation, except for their networking contacts.  They're barking up the wrong god damned building.  They should be in D.C. or at every Federal Reserve Bank building in the country.

I'd lol if those guys were homeless. I'm against capital punishment, but if they brought back the guillotine for those assholes I'd make an exception.




Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:21:11 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:13:48 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 03:45:38 AM
http://www.launch.is/blog/be-the-1-chamath-airbnb-occupy-wall-street-and-the-choice-mi.html

Relevant to this thread and better worded than I possibly could.

prediction: I'll still get shit for it, and so will he.  Hell, he has, in the comments.



:lulz: Relevant if you just pleasingly ignore the facts. Wow, that was one of the stupidest things I've read in a while. I... wow. Yeah. Um. As a startup business owner (I've owned three) who was married to a business owner who worked for startups, with friends who mostly own their own startups, I can tell you that the reason that article is retarded magical-thinking illogical bullshit is right IN THE FUCKING TITLE.

OMFG WHAT IS THIS HORATIO ALGER BULLSHIT?

Not since the nadir of Mystic Pricks, Pawnman and American Me...   :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:23:48 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:16:27 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 05, 2011, 12:55:48 AM
(I have to admit, a bunch of unemployed 20 somethings wearing designer clothes, using G3 phones and carrying macbooks is pretty funny.  I don't buy designer clothing, I have a 3 year old phone, my laptop is a PC I built myself and getting on in years and I've only ever been unemployed 3 months in the last 10 years)

QuoteNow that I think about it, I'll change what I wrote to say yes, I do feel that I "made money" from the bailouts because (and this is hard for me to admit, because I was asleep at the wheel a bit in 08, having just had a kid) my entire investment didn't go up in smoke and electrons.  The money I had tied up in several mutual funds didn't completely disappear and had a place to go.  I knew from the start that the money was a gamble.  That's how a risk/reward system works.  I still think that collectively, as a species, we'd have learned a lot more had the banks been allowed to fail. 

So you never buy nice things but you have money to throw at things like investments and mutual funds. You're not poor, you're cheap.

QuoteIf the protest is barely about the bailouts, then what the hell are they about?  If the firms they are protesting against (investment banks) had been allowed to fail as they would in a system without government safeguards, the billion and millionairs they are protesting against would have found themselves homeless, or at the very least, in bankruptcy and very close to their same situation, except for their networking contacts.  They're barking up the wrong god damned building.  They should be in D.C. or at every Federal Reserve Bank building in the country.

I'd lol if those guys were homeless. I'm against capital punishment, but if they brought back the guillotine for those assholes I'd make an exception.


yeap, I'm "cheap"

Instead of buying the top of the line of "whatever" I'm intelligently (i.e. paying the fuck attention to what's going on) risking money on company stock that could possibly, but not absolutely, help me fund my own retirement and my kids' college education, should he decide that's what he wants to do.

How fucking stupid is that?

I mean, right?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:28:13 AM
I like how he's critical of people having iPhones or droids. Lots of people use those to check email and make job contacts. I even have an iPhone and I use it to answer customer emails when I'm away from my computer.

Designer clothes? Hello Buffalo Exchange. I don't pass on buying something secondhand just because it was expensive when it was new, that would be dumb. And, of course, it should be obvious that people don't throw away all their nice things as soon as they lose their job. We're in a terrible recession... those unemployed people USED TO HAVE JOBS. Not that that shouldn't be obvious, but...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I think that the root of the kind of smug judgmentalism inherent in Libertarianism is, at its root, fear. Because if you believe that the reason you are successful is 90% that you've made good decisions and only 10% pure dumb luck, then you can feel secure in your position in life, whereas if you accept that good luck (including the luck of being able to make good decisions) probably accounts for closer to 80% of your success, life can feel a little precarious because then you're also accepting that chance could pull the rug out from under you at any time. Not like all those dumbfucks on the streets; obviously, they made bad decisions, and you're better than them so that would never happen to you.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:39:04 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:28:13 AM
I like how he's critical of people having iPhones or droids. Lots of people use those to check email and make job contacts. I even have an iPhone and I use it to answer customer emails when I'm away from my computer.

Designer clothes? Hello Buffalo Exchange. I don't pass on buying something secondhand just because it was expensive when it was new, that would be dumb. And, of course, it should be obvious that people don't throw away all their nice things as soon as they lose their job. We're in a terrible recession... those unemployed people USED TO HAVE JOBS. Not that that shouldn't be obvious, but...

I like you Nigel, you give it to people straight and that's one of my favorite qualities in a person.  

Keep talking around me instead of to me and I'll just write you off as another asshole.

I'm sure you'll cry about it.

We're likely more alike than you think.  I hit Bell's outlet for most of my clothing, and the thrift stores in my neighborhood know me as a regular.  

I subscribe to a different philosophy on people than you do.  It doesn't make me 100% wrong, it doesn't make you 100% right.  

I'm trying to find a middle on this board that teaches me something other than what I thought was 100% correct.  

Feel free to continue to be right all of the time in spite of me.  It's an endearing quality that must make you an excellent person to be involved with intimately.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:40:43 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:28:13 AM
I like how he's critical of people having iPhones or droids. Lots of people use those to check email and make job contacts. I even have an iPhone and I use it to answer customer emails when I'm away from my computer.

Designer clothes? Hello Buffalo Exchange. I don't pass on buying something secondhand just because it was expensive when it was new, that would be dumb. And, of course, it should be obvious that people don't throw away all their nice things as soon as they lose their job. We're in a terrible recession... those unemployed people USED TO HAVE JOBS. Not that that shouldn't be obvious, but...

It's the FOX mindset. Poor people aren't supposed to have refrigerators.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:44:20 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:23:48 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:16:27 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 05, 2011, 12:55:48 AM
(I have to admit, a bunch of unemployed 20 somethings wearing designer clothes, using G3 phones and carrying macbooks is pretty funny.  I don't buy designer clothing, I have a 3 year old phone, my laptop is a PC I built myself and getting on in years and I've only ever been unemployed 3 months in the last 10 years)

QuoteNow that I think about it, I'll change what I wrote to say yes, I do feel that I "made money" from the bailouts because (and this is hard for me to admit, because I was asleep at the wheel a bit in 08, having just had a kid) my entire investment didn't go up in smoke and electrons.  The money I had tied up in several mutual funds didn't completely disappear and had a place to go.  I knew from the start that the money was a gamble.  That's how a risk/reward system works.  I still think that collectively, as a species, we'd have learned a lot more had the banks been allowed to fail. 

So you never buy nice things but you have money to throw at things like investments and mutual funds. You're not poor, you're cheap.

QuoteIf the protest is barely about the bailouts, then what the hell are they about?  If the firms they are protesting against (investment banks) had been allowed to fail as they would in a system without government safeguards, the billion and millionairs they are protesting against would have found themselves homeless, or at the very least, in bankruptcy and very close to their same situation, except for their networking contacts.  They're barking up the wrong god damned building.  They should be in D.C. or at every Federal Reserve Bank building in the country.

I'd lol if those guys were homeless. I'm against capital punishment, but if they brought back the guillotine for those assholes I'd make an exception.


yeap, I'm "cheap"

Instead of buying the top of the line of "whatever" I'm intelligently (i.e. paying the fuck attention to what's going on) risking money on company stock that could possibly, but not absolutely, help me fund my own retirement and my kids' college education, should he decide that's what he wants to do.

How fucking stupid is that?

I mean, right?



No stupider than cutting every corner possible so you can blow your paycheck on scratch tickets, I suppose.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:46:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I think that the root of the kind of smug judgmentalism inherent in Libertarianism is, at its root, fear. Because if you believe that the reason you are successful is 90% that you've made good decisions and only 10% pure dumb luck, then you can feel secure in your position in life, whereas if you accept that good luck (including the luck of being able to make good decisions) probably accounts for closer to 80% of your success, life can feel a little precarious because then you're also accepting that chance could pull the rug out from under you at any time. Not like all those dumbfucks on the streets; obviously, they made bad decisions, and you're better than them so that would never happen to you.


That last post was pretty antagonistic.  But then, your replies seems pretty damn antagonistic and almost demand a similar retort.

I think we covered this bit in the other thread.  I have changed my script to acknowledge I was born with certain advantages, even as I was given certain disadvantages that required me to change and overcome, or fall into a repeating pattern.

Yeap, that's the problem with libertards.  The ones who were destitute and made it out have blinders about the luck that helped getting them out of it.

I'm working on that.  I appreciate yours and Freeky's assistance in that.  

Bitch.    :D

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:50:17 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:39:04 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:28:13 AM
I like how he's critical of people having iPhones or droids. Lots of people use those to check email and make job contacts. I even have an iPhone and I use it to answer customer emails when I'm away from my computer.

Designer clothes? Hello Buffalo Exchange. I don't pass on buying something secondhand just because it was expensive when it was new, that would be dumb. And, of course, it should be obvious that people don't throw away all their nice things as soon as they lose their job. We're in a terrible recession... those unemployed people USED TO HAVE JOBS. Not that that shouldn't be obvious, but...

I like you Nigel, you give it to people straight and that's one of my favorite qualities in a person.  

Keep talking around me instead of to me and I'll just write you off as another asshole.

I'm sure you'll cry about it.

We're likely more alike than you think.  I hit Bell's outlet for most of my clothing, and the thrift stores in my neighborhood know me as a regular.  

I subscribe to a different philosophy on people than you do.  It doesn't make me 100% wrong, it doesn't make you 100% right.  

I'm trying to find a middle on this board that teaches me something other than what I thought was 100% correct.  

Feel free to continue to be right all of the time in spite of me.  It's an endearing quality that must make you an excellent person to be involved with intimately.

I have addressed you directly several times. That time I was replying to Stella.

That last line of yours puts you on my shit list for as long as I remember that you said it. Which might not be long, if you're lucky. Seriously? Dragging my love life into this discussion? That was completely tacky and uncalled-for.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:54:12 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:44:20 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:23:48 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 04:16:27 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 05, 2011, 12:55:48 AM
(I have to admit, a bunch of unemployed 20 somethings wearing designer clothes, using G3 phones and carrying macbooks is pretty funny.  I don't buy designer clothing, I have a 3 year old phone, my laptop is a PC I built myself and getting on in years and I've only ever been unemployed 3 months in the last 10 years)

QuoteNow that I think about it, I'll change what I wrote to say yes, I do feel that I "made money" from the bailouts because (and this is hard for me to admit, because I was asleep at the wheel a bit in 08, having just had a kid) my entire investment didn't go up in smoke and electrons.  The money I had tied up in several mutual funds didn't completely disappear and had a place to go.  I knew from the start that the money was a gamble.  That's how a risk/reward system works.  I still think that collectively, as a species, we'd have learned a lot more had the banks been allowed to fail. 

So you never buy nice things but you have money to throw at things like investments and mutual funds. You're not poor, you're cheap.

QuoteIf the protest is barely about the bailouts, then what the hell are they about?  If the firms they are protesting against (investment banks) had been allowed to fail as they would in a system without government safeguards, the billion and millionairs they are protesting against would have found themselves homeless, or at the very least, in bankruptcy and very close to their same situation, except for their networking contacts.  They're barking up the wrong god damned building.  They should be in D.C. or at every Federal Reserve Bank building in the country.

I'd lol if those guys were homeless. I'm against capital punishment, but if they brought back the guillotine for those assholes I'd make an exception.


yeap, I'm "cheap"

Instead of buying the top of the line of "whatever" I'm intelligently (i.e. paying the fuck attention to what's going on) risking money on company stock that could possibly, but not absolutely, help me fund my own retirement and my kids' college education, should he decide that's what he wants to do.

How fucking stupid is that?

I mean, right?



No stupider than cutting every corner possible so you can blow your paycheck on scratch tickets, I suppose.



what the fuck are you talking about?

yes, it's a gamble.  

more decisions in life than I can possibly list are a gamble.

you either take a risk for a potential reward, or you sit on the side lines and putter away in mediocrity.

I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

Here's a newsflash: not everyone is going to make it.  and not everyone should.  

May fortune favor the bold, etc, etc.

It occurs to me that I've had too much to drink to continue this conversation without being belligerent.  

I'll see you spags tomorrow.  
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:55:29 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:46:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I think that the root of the kind of smug judgmentalism inherent in Libertarianism is, at its root, fear. Because if you believe that the reason you are successful is 90% that you've made good decisions and only 10% pure dumb luck, then you can feel secure in your position in life, whereas if you accept that good luck (including the luck of being able to make good decisions) probably accounts for closer to 80% of your success, life can feel a little precarious because then you're also accepting that chance could pull the rug out from under you at any time. Not like all those dumbfucks on the streets; obviously, they made bad decisions, and you're better than them so that would never happen to you.


That last post was pretty antagonistic.  But then, your replies seems pretty damn antagonistic and almost demand a similar retort.

I think we covered this bit in the other thread.  I have changed my script to acknowledge I was born with certain advantages, even as I was given certain disadvantages that required me to change and overcome, or fall into a repeating pattern.

Yeap, that's the problem with libertards.  The ones who were destitute and made it out have blinders about the luck that helped getting them out of it.

I'm working on that.  I appreciate yours and Freeky's assistance in that.  

Bitch.    :D



Did I poke a nerve? Fuck you. I'm done with you, except inasmuch as I can make your time spent here as unpleasant as possible. I have addressed you pretty politely in this thread, I have complimented the obvious advantages you have over other people even while I pointed out that it was very lucky for you to be granted such advantages. In return, you call me names and intimate that my convictions must make me a ball-buster in relationships.

Wow.

Because, obviously, it's not like I might be sensitive at all about my tenuous and heartbreaking relationship status, or struggling with personal issues, or have any normal girly feelings. Just go right for the personal stuff.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:58:52 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:50:17 AM


That last line of yours puts you on my shit list for as long as I remember that you said it. Which might not be long, if you're lucky. Seriously? Dragging my love life into this discussion? That was completely tacky and uncalled-for.

completely uncalled for.  

cheap shot was cheap.  

I could blame it on the alcohol but that would be disingenuous.  

It was just a dick move designed to get a rile out of you.

I won't do it again.  I'll talk with you on the subject.

Sorry about that.  I know that's no conciliation.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:03:23 AM
Clearly, the best way to shut down a woman in an argument is to either call her a slut or inform her that her strong opinions are the reason she can't keep a man.

Conciliation? You don't even have the balls to apologize. You are a cheap, trashy coward.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 06, 2011, 05:05:54 AM
Funny thing, Pickles, is your seeming in ability to divorce yourself from the stereotype long enough for us to think you are different than the folks who you link. The thing with that article you linked... it's so horribly flawed that we can barely stop laughing long enough to try to logically address it.

For the record, Pickles, I was gifted with many of the same advantages as you, and in a slightly better situation to boot (my parents were drugged up), and I'm damn lucky that I'm living comfortably right now.  Thing is, I know how lucky I am/was, and I know just how tenuous my position is. I don't have an iPhone. I don't have designer clothes, as my wardrobe consists mostly of hand-me-downs from my sister, and I certainly ain't no rags-to-riches story (and neither is she).

Gah... I can't think right now.... let me see if I can't flesh that out more later...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 06, 2011, 05:06:10 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:46:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I think that the root of the kind of smug judgmentalism inherent in Libertarianism is, at its root, fear. Because if you believe that the reason you are successful is 90% that you've made good decisions and only 10% pure dumb luck, then you can feel secure in your position in life, whereas if you accept that good luck (including the luck of being able to make good decisions) probably accounts for closer to 80% of your success, life can feel a little precarious because then you're also accepting that chance could pull the rug out from under you at any time. Not like all those dumbfucks on the streets; obviously, they made bad decisions, and you're better than them so that would never happen to you.


That last post was pretty antagonistic.  But then, your replies seems pretty damn antagonistic and almost demand a similar retort.

I think we covered this bit in the other thread.  I have changed my script to acknowledge I was born with certain advantages, even as I was given certain disadvantages that required me to change and overcome, or fall into a repeating pattern.

Yeap, that's the problem with libertards.  The ones who were destitute and made it out have blinders about the luck that helped getting them out of it.

I'm working on that.  I appreciate yours and Freeky's assistance in that.  

Bitch.    :D



Woah, dude.  I (and probably Nigel too, am not mind reader) actually WAS trying to help you, and then you come over all passive aggressive and do this shit?  You fucking use me as ammunition because Nigel touched a nerve?  What the fucking hell is wrong with you?  Why are you digging your heels in like a goddamn monkey, proving every single point made against libertarianism on this board?  Do you think this is going to make you friends?  Make you right?  

Guess what.  Go fuck yourself.  If this is the way you're going to treat my attempt at breaking you of a bad habit (particularly faulty logic) then you can suck my left nut.  Goddammit.  GOD FUCKING DAMN IT.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 05:14:45 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:03:23 AM
Clearly, the best way to shut down a woman in an argument is to either call her a slut or inform her that her strong opinions are the reason she can't keep a man.

Conciliation? You don't even have the balls to apologize. You are a cheap, trashy coward.

I sincerely apologise.  as much as I possibly can across an entire continent.

I let me emotions get in the way of what should have been a reasoned discussion.

I did take your replies to be personal and that was my mistake.

I should never have brought your personal relationships into the discussion as a reflection on you.  

That was wrong.  

I'll never do that again.

If this isn't enough of an apology to you, considering I'm just some electrons on the other side of the world, I'm not sure what will ever be.

I'm sorry.

That might seem disingenuous from someone else, but I really mean it.  

I was a dick there.  Nothing you have said deserved that dickishness.

I hope we can get past it at some point.  I learn a lot from you.

lot of spaces in between those statements, isn't there?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:21:49 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 05:06:10 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 04:46:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I think that the root of the kind of smug judgmentalism inherent in Libertarianism is, at its root, fear. Because if you believe that the reason you are successful is 90% that you've made good decisions and only 10% pure dumb luck, then you can feel secure in your position in life, whereas if you accept that good luck (including the luck of being able to make good decisions) probably accounts for closer to 80% of your success, life can feel a little precarious because then you're also accepting that chance could pull the rug out from under you at any time. Not like all those dumbfucks on the streets; obviously, they made bad decisions, and you're better than them so that would never happen to you.


That last post was pretty antagonistic.  But then, your replies seems pretty damn antagonistic and almost demand a similar retort.

I think we covered this bit in the other thread.  I have changed my script to acknowledge I was born with certain advantages, even as I was given certain disadvantages that required me to change and overcome, or fall into a repeating pattern.

Yeap, that's the problem with libertards.  The ones who were destitute and made it out have blinders about the luck that helped getting them out of it.

I'm working on that.  I appreciate yours and Freeky's assistance in that.  

Bitch.    :D



Woah, dude.  I (and probably Nigel too, am not mind reader) actually WAS trying to help you, and then you come over all passive aggressive and do this shit?  You fucking use me as ammunition because Nigel touched a nerve?  What the fucking hell is wrong with you?  Why are you digging your heels in like a goddamn monkey, proving every single point made against libertarianism on this board?  Do you think this is going to make you friends?  Make you right?  

Guess what.  Go fuck yourself.  If this is the way you're going to treat my attempt at breaking you of a bad habit (particularly faulty logic) then you can suck my left nut.  Goddammit.  GOD FUCKING DAMN IT.

Very seriously, the last guy I knew who had the mindset that external influences shape our lives much less than internal influences went into a severe depression and tried to kill himself when his girlfriend dumped him and he lost his job & couldn't find a new one despite being a very well-regarded, highly talented and hardworking CGI animator. He lost his shit because, according to his worldview, he must have done something wrong. It had to be his fault.

Luckily, the suicide attempt left him with a certain degree of personality-altering brain damage, and while he's much more of a dick now, he's also a lot happier. Upside!



(Incidentally, while he was in the mental institution in the months following his suicide attempt, I had his car towed. I felt so guilty; I didn't know it was his and it had been in front of my house for weeks.)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:22:30 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 05:14:45 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:03:23 AM
Clearly, the best way to shut down a woman in an argument is to either call her a slut or inform her that her strong opinions are the reason she can't keep a man.

Conciliation? You don't even have the balls to apologize. You are a cheap, trashy coward.

I sincerely apologise.  as much as I possibly can across an entire continent.

I let me emotions get in the way of what should have been a reasoned discussion.

I did take your replies to be personal and that was my mistake.

I should never have brought your personal relationships into the discussion as a reflection on you.  

That was wrong.  

I'll never do that again.

If this isn't enough of an apology to you, considering I'm just some electrons on the other side of the world, I'm not sure what will ever be.

I'm sorry.

That might seem disingenuous from someone else, but I really mean it.  

I was a dick there.  Nothing you have said deserved that dickishness.

I hope we can get past it at some point.  I learn a lot from you.

lot of spaces in between those statements, isn't there?

OK, thank you.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 06:33:46 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:03:23 AM
Clearly, the best way to shut down a woman in an argument is to either call her a slut or inform her that her strong opinions are the reason she can't keep a man.

Conciliation? You don't even have the balls to apologize. You are a cheap, trashy coward.

Look at the crap he posts, look at the crap he links to.
I'm only surprised that he hasn't called anyone a "feminazi".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 06:36:57 AM
Apologies were in order, but they don't make everything all better, DP. We know you're like that now.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2011, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 06, 2011, 03:20:00 AM
Called it :)

Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 03, 2011, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 02, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Quote from: Cainad on October 02, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
I heard about this on the radio. I'm rather surprised that this is actually happening, and I am eagerly awaiting the tales of mass disruption.

QUICK, place your bets on how long it will be before the propaganda machine tries to connect the Occupiers to terrorism!

The moment they realize the problem is too large to ignore it, there will be accusations of terrorism, and also most likely some horrific violence which will be blamed on the Occupiers. I predict a bombing. This will be used to "justify" extreme police violence against the Occupiers.
I think what will happen if it starts to get too large, and I'm already seeing signs of this, is the movement will be co-opted and neutered by mainstream establishment Democrats.

In the comments, someone gives a good way Wall Street and the NYPD could come out of this smelling like roses.  I'll quote it, because it's a good one:

QuoteMy father is a historian, whose specialty is the history of the French revolution(s) – so I absorbed a lot of stuff on that topic as a young pup, rather inadvertently. I grew up reading Saul Alinksi's "Rules for Radicals" – unlike, apparently, whoever 'organized' the OWS effort.

One of the reasons protests like OWS are important is because they happen at all, and how they end. Generally, the first few protests are fairly peaceful unless they are met with violence, and the best response of the forces in power is to defuse them by allowing them to get bored. The quintessential example of this was some protests at NSA back in the 90s, in which a few dozen people hopped up and down outside the barbed wire. NSA sent a spokesperson with a couple minions, some tables, chairs, kool-ade (it was a hot day) and ice, and made the protestors comfortable while the spokesperson "engaged" with the people – not with an intent of changing anyone's mind but of simply letting them talk themselves out and boring them to tears. It worked. One of the points that Alinsky makes is that the organizer of a movement is screwed if they have no agenda, or if they have an agenda that is easy to meet. Indeed, when you go out to organize the masses, the thing you want to ask for is an unachievable goal, because your opponent can pull your fangs by the simple expedient of promising you whatever it is you asked for, and then reneging on it after everyone has gone home and gotten comfortable on the couch, again.

The OWS protest will go on longer than it should have, thanks to officer Bologna and his ill-advised pepper spray, who gave them a perfect example of what they are standing against. If I were his superior, I would have him out there, right now, with a table and a gigantic quantity of donuts and coffee with NYPD napkins and paper cups serving the protestors. If I were on the other side, I'd rummage around some Wall St companies and get them to send human resources people with job postings and turn the occupation into a jobs fair. Alinsky makes the point, over and over that whoever can maintain the most stark distinction between "us" and "them" will be able to maintain a coherent force, whereas the other side can always be pressured by encouraging them to "become part of 'us'" Protests like this are not revolutions, yet, they should be more like an amoeba than a praying mantis: surround, absorb, digest later.

The 60s were a time when there still were professional radicals, offering a counter-current ideology that was plausible enough to attract adherents. Marxism sounds really good, because it's mostly idealistic bafflegab, especially through loud speakers at a rally, where nobody has a chance to question whether it's really a viable alternative. And, that's what OWS (and the Tea Party) lack – a viable alternative. In the 60s there still were professional radicals who could fire up a crowd with ideological cant. The OWS crowd and the Tea Party have ideology but it's all anti-this, anti-that – you only get a revolution, in those situations, if the state responds with excessive force and there is a serious long-standing popular grudge. One of the things most people never learn is that there was not just "one" French revolution – there were a series, which culminated in the big one. For a country to reach a level of discontent that severe, the plutocracy has to be horribly dysfunctional (viz: the Romanoffs, The Bourbons) and the political unbalance must be massive. Or, the state has to lead with its chin by getting violent and the "real revolution" turning-point is virtually always the moment when the standing military decides it's not going to take orders. (That's why the Chinese imported a mechanized corps from the north to break up Tienamen Square – it'd be hard to get local residents to open fire on streets that they know)

The short form of all of this is that we don't look like we've got anything remotely like a level of discontent that would spark a real revolution. In the 60s, with apartheid and people being drafted to die pointlessly in Vietnam, it was potentially there – which is why the rulers loosened the leash a bit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 12:40:29 PM
Quote from: Shitpickle
I subscribe to a different philosophy on people than you do.  It doesn't make me 100% wrong, it doesn't make you 100% right.  

Possibly. By my admittedly rough estimate you've been wrong about 75% of the time.

Utter and complete stupidity can only account for 50% of that!

Quote from: Discocunt PicklepooperFeel free to continue to be right all of the time in spite of me.  It's an endearing quality that must make you an excellent person to be involved with intimately.

WOw you're a shithead.

I know you apologized and shit, but I just wanted to press your face in it, like housebreaking a puppy.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 12:42:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 12:23:08 PMIn the comments, someone gives a good way Wall Street and the NYPD could come out of this smelling like roses.  I'll quote it, because it's a good one:

QuoteMy father is a historian, whose specialty is the history of the French revolution(s) – so I absorbed a lot of stuff on that topic as a young pup, rather inadvertently. I grew up reading Saul Alinksi's "Rules for Radicals" – unlike, apparently, whoever 'organized' the OWS effort.

One of the reasons protests like OWS are important is because they happen at all, and how they end. Generally, the first few protests are fairly peaceful unless they are met with violence, and the best response of the forces in power is to defuse them by allowing them to get bored. The quintessential example of this was some protests at NSA back in the 90s, in which a few dozen people hopped up and down outside the barbed wire. NSA sent a spokesperson with a couple minions, some tables, chairs, kool-ade (it was a hot day) and ice, and made the protestors comfortable while the spokesperson "engaged" with the people – not with an intent of changing anyone's mind but of simply letting them talk themselves out and boring them to tears. It worked. One of the points that Alinsky makes is that the organizer of a movement is screwed if they have no agenda, or if they have an agenda that is easy to meet. Indeed, when you go out to organize the masses, the thing you want to ask for is an unachievable goal, because your opponent can pull your fangs by the simple expedient of promising you whatever it is you asked for, and then reneging on it after everyone has gone home and gotten comfortable on the couch, again.

The OWS protest will go on longer than it should have, thanks to officer Bologna and his ill-advised pepper spray, who gave them a perfect example of what they are standing against. If I were his superior, I would have him out there, right now, with a table and a gigantic quantity of donuts and coffee with NYPD napkins and paper cups serving the protestors. If I were on the other side, I'd rummage around some Wall St companies and get them to send human resources people with job postings and turn the occupation into a jobs fair. Alinsky makes the point, over and over that whoever can maintain the most stark distinction between "us" and "them" will be able to maintain a coherent force, whereas the other side can always be pressured by encouraging them to "become part of 'us'" Protests like this are not revolutions, yet, they should be more like an amoeba than a praying mantis: surround, absorb, digest later.

The 60s were a time when there still were professional radicals, offering a counter-current ideology that was plausible enough to attract adherents. Marxism sounds really good, because it's mostly idealistic bafflegab, especially through loud speakers at a rally, where nobody has a chance to question whether it's really a viable alternative. And, that's what OWS (and the Tea Party) lack – a viable alternative. In the 60s there still were professional radicals who could fire up a crowd with ideological cant. The OWS crowd and the Tea Party have ideology but it's all anti-this, anti-that – you only get a revolution, in those situations, if the state responds with excessive force and there is a serious long-standing popular grudge. One of the things most people never learn is that there was not just "one" French revolution – there were a series, which culminated in the big one. For a country to reach a level of discontent that severe, the plutocracy has to be horribly dysfunctional (viz: the Romanoffs, The Bourbons) and the political unbalance must be massive. Or, the state has to lead with its chin by getting violent and the "real revolution" turning-point is virtually always the moment when the standing military decides it's not going to take orders. (That's why the Chinese imported a mechanized corps from the north to break up Tienamen Square – it'd be hard to get local residents to open fire on streets that they know)

The short form of all of this is that we don't look like we've got anything remotely like a level of discontent that would spark a real revolution. In the 60s, with apartheid and people being drafted to die pointlessly in Vietnam, it was potentially there – which is why the rulers loosened the leash a bit.

Wowww that's a good one, very insightful!

I'm getting more and more that these protests really need "1% Agent Provocateurs" ...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 06, 2011, 02:02:07 PM
You think the 1% crowd could be provoked into violence?
:?
That seems unlikely.

or, are you saying that the Occupy crowd should be provoked?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2011, 02:04:39 PM
I believe Trip is saying the OWS crowd need agent provocateurs pretending to be the "1%" and acting like complete, entitled assholes in order to better heighten the "us and them" dynamic needed for a successful protest movement.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 02:05:43 PM
What Cain said.

Quote from: Iptuous on October 06, 2011, 02:02:07 PM
You think the 1% crowd could be provoked into violence?
:?
That seems unlikely.

or, are you saying that the Occupy crowd should be provoked?

The latter.

Whether it's done by the actual 1% peoples or not is immaterial.

Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 12:24:20 AM
From the Chicago protests:

(http://i.imgur.com/jnyel.jpg)

Yeah, not helping your case there, guys.

Like this ^^^

And that thing where they were looking down upon the protestors sipping champagne.

Need Moar enraging shit like that!!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 06, 2011, 02:37:41 PM
ah, i see...
i guess i was thinking agent provocateurs were always pretending to be on the side of those that they are stirring up to act violently.

So to taunt the occupy crowd to grow teeth, a demonstration of a wall street type bagging on a protester, mocking him/her for using nonviolence when the people they are protesting against hold all the cards and couldn't care less how the 99% end up...

this could be staged at the actual event, but then there's a greater risk that it's exposed that it's a production.  if it was done in a controlled environment and put on youtube, the protesters at wall st. would still get the rise out of it, but it would be a safer bet.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 02:39:19 PM
Footage from last night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEBAGIool0

INTENSE

my buddy was there (at the protest yesterday, not at the event in this video), says his friend was in one of the apartments which overlooked this.

(fun fact: there's a ton of student housing on wall street. Turns out the rent is really low over there. Apparently 9/11 made wall st real estate plummet)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
a fox news reporter & camera man got maced during the struggle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YrIRmamVqk




Yesterday (Wed Oct 5) was the biggest day of the protest so far. My friend who was there said they hit the 20K mark, which was their original target size. It was so big because of the vets showing up, the unions showing up, and there were walkouts staged at all the city colleges and surrounding schools (including my alma mater, SUNY Purchase! yay purchase!).

So there were 20,000 people there yesterday, but there will be much fewer today.

My cabalmate says that people are prepared to camp out all winter.

He also said that if you want the breaking news, go to twitter - everybody's posting to twitter every 10 seconds. Everybody has their phones out. If a cop farts, 10 cameras catch it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 02:51:12 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 05, 2011, 08:56:07 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 05, 2011, 07:30:45 PM
99.6% have a refrigerator and that's a GOOD THING. Having a fridge is a basic necessity for living. Maybe not like clean water and shelter, but the next thing. Especially if you live on a tight budget, you need a fridge, otherwise you'd be throwing away food all the time.

I know preaching to the choir here.

Funny how they didn't say 99.6 has a TV, right? Because the numbers are probably pretty high as well. Except to a corporate media entity like Fox, a TV is more a basic life necessity than a fridge :) It doesn't understand these hu-mans. They just need to watch, not eat, wtf?!

Ugh, I know! WTF people. Plus, if you don't have a fridge and a way to heat food, you end up having to buy vastly more expensive pre-prepared food in order to eat.

Yes, the poor mostly also have indoor plumbing, as well.

The thing is, due to housing codes, the urban poor HAVE to have these things. It's not like one of the rental options in NYC is "dirt floor shack".


I for one will not rest until the poor are smeared with dirt, living in rubbish bins, wearing tattered rags, and performing elaborate song and dance numbers.

I also demand that we bring back chimney sweeps. I find them delightful. 

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
I am becoming encouraged.  Protesting while people are actually there is a big step.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 03:33:30 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 02:39:19 PM
Footage from last night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEBAGIool0

INTENSE

my buddy was there (at the protest yesterday, not at the event in this video), says his friend was in one of the apartments which overlooked this.

(fun fact: there's a ton of student housing on wall street. Turns out the rent is really low over there. Apparently 9/11 made wall st real estate plummet)

Whooow. Jetzt geht los!

Big question: who were the guys in the suits and ties?

I kinda got chills when that crowd started chanting "we are the 99%"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 06, 2011, 03:43:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
I am becoming encouraged.  Protesting while people are actually there is a big step.

Shits getting real Dok. I guess hope still lives. I, for one, am proud of the protestors, they are sticking to it.

Had to edit to add "hope", guess it's been too damn long since I had any.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:31:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 02:04:39 PM
I believe Trip is saying the OWS crowd need agent provocateurs pretending to be the "1%" and acting like complete, entitled assholes in order to better heighten the "us and them" dynamic needed for a successful protest movement.

I agree.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 04:35:28 PM
Maybe we should send Trix and Pickle?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
Steady on now...we don't want a re-run of the French Revolution.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:36:57 PM
 :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 04:37:24 PM
Quote from: The Rev on October 06, 2011, 03:43:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
I am becoming encouraged.  Protesting while people are actually there is a big step.

Shits getting real Dok. I guess hope still lives. I, for one, am proud of the protestors, they are sticking to it.

Had to edit to add "hope", guess it's been too damn long since I had any.

I'm not to the hope stage yet, but I can see it from here.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:09:46 PM
Mr. Language states that for there to be any possibility of change, people will have to get hurt. I agree; it will have to snowball a fair bit from here.

He's going downtown at noon, I asked him to send me pics since I'm going to stay home like a good little woman, making soup and carrot cake for the children.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 05:10:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 04:37:24 PM
Quote from: The Rev on October 06, 2011, 03:43:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
I am becoming encouraged.  Protesting while people are actually there is a big step.

Shits getting real Dok. I guess hope still lives. I, for one, am proud of the protestors, they are sticking to it.

Had to edit to add "hope", guess it's been too damn long since I had any.

I'm not to the hope stage yet, but I can see it from here.

That's the best we've had since 1963.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 06, 2011, 05:14:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:09:46 PM
Mr. Language states that for there to be any possibility of change, people will have to get hurt. I agree; it will have to snowball a fair bit from here.

He's going downtown at noon, I asked him to send me pics since I'm going to stay home like a good little woman, making soup and carrot cake for the children.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BRING THEM TO THE PROTEST!?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:28:01 PM
Quote from: Net on October 06, 2011, 05:14:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:09:46 PM
Mr. Language states that for there to be any possibility of change, people will have to get hurt. I agree; it will have to snowball a fair bit from here.

He's going downtown at noon, I asked him to send me pics since I'm going to stay home like a good little woman, making soup and carrot cake for the children.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BRING THEM TO THE PROTEST!?

hahahahahahhahahahahahahaaaa
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:31:00 PM
I know people are taking their kids to the protest, and especially on the first day it's likely to be very safe. EFO has been to protests (and has seen people pepper-sprayed by the police) but I can't just take her (because she's the babysitter one) and I won't take LO, because LO exists in a slightly alternate universe where none of it would make sense and it would either terrify her or activate her bloodlust.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 06, 2011, 06:32:21 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:31:00 PM
I know people are taking their kids to the protest, and especially on the first day it's likely to be very safe. EFO has been to protests (and has seen people pepper-sprayed by the police) but I can't just take her (because she's the babysitter one) and I won't take LO, because LO exists in a slightly alternate universe where none of it would make sense and it would either terrify her or activate her bloodlust.

I figure if kids are pretty much adult-sized they'll be ok, but parents that bring very small children really grinds my gears. They can get hurt more easily and yeah, psychologically messed up too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 06:37:20 PM
Quote from: Net on October 06, 2011, 06:32:21 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:31:00 PM
I know people are taking their kids to the protest, and especially on the first day it's likely to be very safe. EFO has been to protests (and has seen people pepper-sprayed by the police) but I can't just take her (because she's the babysitter one) and I won't take LO, because LO exists in a slightly alternate universe where none of it would make sense and it would either terrify her or activate her bloodlust.

I figure if kids are pretty much adult-sized they'll be ok, but parents that bring very small children really grinds my gears. They can get hurt more easily and yeah, psychologically messed up too.

I feel the same way about science fiction conventions.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on October 06, 2011, 06:45:57 PM
I will take my kids with me on Saturday afternoon if I go.  I'm kind of weird in that I make them watch the news so they know what is happening in the world around them, so they are a bit caught up in what is happening in NY. 

We've had arrests here, but the protestors were in a park that had a posted curfew time and it was after that time. 

I think it will be fairly safe.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 06, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
Occupy Boston seems to be going rather quietly. Menino made some comment about making sure the protesters have ample food and restroom accommodations, room for tents,  on the evening news.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on October 06, 2011, 07:49:57 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 06, 2011, 03:45:38 AM
http://www.launch.is/blog/be-the-1-chamath-airbnb-occupy-wall-street-and-the-choice-mi.html

Relevant to this thread and better worded than I possibly could.

prediction: I'll still get shit for it, and so will he.  Hell, he has, in the comments.



Why do people keep insisting there is no mission statement?  They have one right on their website.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on October 06, 2011, 07:59:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:31:00 PM
I know people are taking their kids to the protest, and especially on the first day it's likely to be very safe. EFO has been to protests (and has seen people pepper-sprayed by the police) but I can't just take her (because she's the babysitter one) and I won't take LO, because LO exists in a slightly alternate universe where none of it would make sense and it would either terrify her or activate her bloodlust.

First day of the Seattle WTO protests the police teargassed and peppersprayed like mad bastards.  I think you are making the right choice keeping them home.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on October 06, 2011, 08:40:21 PM
http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/occupy-official-statement

an offical statement from the occupy wall street peeps.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 08:45:42 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 06, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
Occupy Boston seems to be going rather quietly. Menino made some comment about making sure the protesters have ample food and restroom accommodations, room for tents,  on the evening news.

Didn't Cain mention that tactic earlier? Boston is trying to get rid of them.  :sad:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 08:54:59 PM
The Tea Party responds to the official statement from OWS. Pasted here for convenience. I don't know if this is "official" or not.

The original post has several links in each paragraph which I'm not going to transcribe.


http://www.teapartynation.com/profiles/blogs/the-daily-blade-occupy-haight-ashbury

Occupy Haight Ashbury

The "Occupy Wall Street" protesters finally figured out what they want – sorta; their Website lists 13 proposed demands. As a beleaguered taxpayer, conservative and patriotic American, The Stiletto has her own list of demands for President Barack Hussein Obama, Congress and the Supreme Court – her revolution will be televised on C-SPAN:



Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by stopping the endless flow of illegal immigrants into our country to work at wages that are not only below a "living wage" – which the brains behind Occupy Wall Street have pegged at "twenty dollars an hr" – but too often are below the minimum wage (which currently ranges from $5.15 to $8.25 per hour, but will rise in several states in 2012). The more illegal immigrants drive down wages for less-educated workers, the bigger the impact on black Americans. Therefore, enabling and supporting illegal immigration is a form of racism.



Demand two: Free hospitals from the legal obligation to provide free, long-term medical treatment to patients who are illegal, underinsured or uninsured (usually, all three). There is no free medical care in Mexico; only the US gives away a labor-intensive and expensive commodity like kidney dialysis away for free to anyone who needs it. The result is that public hospitals serving our poorest and most vulnerable citizens are going bankrupt and shutting their doors forcing inner city elderly and disabled people who rely on public transportation to go miles out of their neighborhoods to get medical care (last item on page).



Demand three: Guaranteed right to work laws in every state, regardless of the influence of labor unions' political donations.


Demand four: Freedom to attend the college and professional school of your choice, with admission based on academic and athletic achievement rather than race-based preferences.


Demand five: Begin a fast track process to resolve the question of whether fracking (hydraulic fracturing, or underground shale gas drilling) should be regulated on the state or federal level; Congress should pass HR 1230 to revive offshore leasing; Congress should pass S 706/HR 1287 to open up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) to oil exploration and production; Congress should pass HR 1231 to reverse President Barack Hussein Obama's offshore drilling moratorium.



Demand six: If the American Jobs Act of 2011 ever comes to a vote, Congress should strip out the proposal to reduce the tax break on municipal bond interest that "rich" taxpayers earning more than $250,000 per year can take from 35 percent to 28 percent. Municipal bonds prices will sink, meaning that it will cost more for state and local governments to borrow the money needed for infrastructure projects and they will either have to impose more taxes to proceed with shovel-ready projects, or either postpone or scrap them altogether.


Demand seven: Reallocate a percentage of foreign aid to Mexico towards reversing the ecological damage to the Sonoran desert caused by several million illegals crossing into Southern Arizona from Mexico and picking up the 25 million pounds of trash they have left behind, as well as restoration of national park land, forests and watersheds that Mexican drug gangs growing marijuana have polluted with fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides that have been banned in the U.S. 


Demand eight: Balanced budget amendment.


Demand nine: Except in cases of documented persecution or ethnic cleansing, end chain migration, in which resettling one immigrant, refugee, or asylee in the U.S. opens the door to the admission of their children, parents, in-laws, siblings – and the children and in-laws of their siblings (many of whom do not work). Congress should pass HR 692, and investigate fraudulent applications.


Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards by passing state voter ID laws to prevent voter fraud, which has been documented to have occurred in several states.


Demand eleven: Immediate across the board reduction in foreign aid to Clinton administration levels, and ensure taxpayer dollars are used to further U.S. national security interests rather than being sent to countries that repurpose it to undermine our foreign policy goals, or that provide safe haven and other support to terrorists who kill our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Demand twelve: Outlaw neighborhood medical marijuana dispensaries – immediately closing down those located near schools – and require them to be operated by hospitals and administered by trained medical personnel, and subject to accounting audits to prevent money laundering.


Demand thirteen: Ban automatic payroll deductions for union dues, and require each union member to consent in writing to his or her dues being used to back or defeat specific candidates or ballot initiatives. 



The Stiletto calls upon right-thinking Americans to converge upon the intersection of Haight and Ashbury Streets in San Francisco – the epicenter of  hippie-dippydom – and press these demands.



"Hey, hey, ho, ho. Illegal aliens got to go!"



"One, two, three four. Don't raise my taxes any more!"



"What do we want? Economic growth! When do we want it? Now!" 



"Hey BHO, how many trillions did you spend today?"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 06, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 08:54:59 PMThe Stiletto calls upon right-thinking Americans to converge upon the intersection of Haight and Ashbury Streets in San Francisco – the epicenter of  hippie-dippydom – and press these demands.
45 years ago.  It's an outdoor shopping mall now.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 09:17:45 PM
These are obviously the demands of TRUE AMERICANS. I know I lay awake at night praying that the government would end the time-consuming regulatory process that prevents me from starting my own fracking operation and planting a couple of oil rigs in Alaska and off-shore.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 06, 2011, 09:26:16 PM
@stelz- i missed cains post but yeah it seems like a clever way to go for a mayor.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on October 06, 2011, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 06, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 08:54:59 PMThe Stiletto calls upon right-thinking Americans to converge upon the intersection of Haight and Ashbury Streets in San Francisco – the epicenter of  hippie-dippydom – and press these demands.
45 years ago.  It's an outdoor shopping mall now.

:lulz:

Also, who exactly are they making these demands of?  The grand high poobahs of the hippie conspiracy that secretly runs this nation?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 09:29:57 PM
Glenn Greenwald tore up that Erin Burnett segment that Disco Pickle posted the other day

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/05/erin_burnett_voice_of_the_people/singleton/

it includes some hilarious comments she made on twitter which she then deleted.

And here's some fun facts about Burnett's background:

Quote[Burnett] is set to tie the knot with Citigroup executive David Rubulotta. . . .

The American-born journalist started her career as a financial analyst for worldwide investment banking and securities firm Goldman Sachs.

During her time at the company she was headhunted by CNN for the position of writer and booker for the network's hit show Moneyline.

When Burnett later became Vice President of Citigroup/CitiMedia, she met Rubulotta, who currently serves as an executive with the company.


HuffPo has a pretty good piece too

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/occupy-wall-street-erin-burnett_n_998494.html





edit to add: a line from the Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/tv/z-on-tv-blog/bal-cnn-erin-burnett-smug-insensitive-superficial-20111005,0,5545277.story):

QuoteTwo of the fundamental attributes of good journalism are curiosity and a respect for the people on whom you report. Burnett got an "F" on both those counts with her Occupy Wall Street piece. Not only didn't she listen hard enough to learn anything from the people in the group, she and her producers positioned the speakers to be seen as objects of derision. That is deplorable.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 11:45:25 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 06, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 08:54:59 PMThe Stiletto calls upon right-thinking Americans to converge upon the intersection of Haight and Ashbury Streets in San Francisco – the epicenter of  hippie-dippydom – and press these demands.
45 years ago.  It's an outdoor shopping mall now.

:lulz:

THIS.

But we knew the baggers have been on another planet since Jerry Garcia's beard was black.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 11:48:00 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 09:29:57 PM
Quote[Burnett] is set to tie the knot with Citigroup executive David Rubulotta. . . .
During her time at the company she was headhunted by CNN for the position of writer and booker for the network's hit show Moneyline.

For some reason, at first glance my brain registered that as "writer and hooker".  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 06, 2011, 09:26:16 PM
@stelz- i missed cains post but yeah it seems like a clever way to go for a mayor.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30415.msg1102121#msg1102121

Probably consulted with a bunch of experts from Harvard or something on how to best shut this thing down.  :x
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 07, 2011, 04:18:21 AM
Quote(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsob11hjc91r25y9yo1_500.jpg)
Trying to get through college now i deliver pizza because i need the flexible hours. I work for the top !% I am the 99%

Many more like this at link:
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 07, 2011, 07:29:04 AM
Transfer Day is sounding like something that potentially has teeth. Open an account at a credit union, 11/5 transfer all of your funds from your corporate bank account into it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on October 07, 2011, 07:37:09 AM
the daily fail has actually produced a measured report on Occupy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046029/Occupy-Wall-Street-NYPD-officer-caught-bragging-beating-protesters.html

Oh and this is for Cram, the Occupy Wall St Press he was looking for. http://paper.li/occupymanhattan/1317517749
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on October 07, 2011, 08:08:14 AM
So, this is interesting: http://pastebin.com/r2jB1wN4

A group of individuals are currently handing out business cards at OccupyLA that have the anon logo on them. They are suggesting to people to start looting and burning. They are claiming to BE anon. Anonymous stands for peaceful protest at all costs. That is our message. spread it.

CARD IMAGE: http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/1895/38516505819364459261317939907nrnEfquFLvHW9iNl14Us.JPG
The information on the card is as follows:

Name: S. Spicer
Cell: 213-447-4630
E: anonintelopscmd@gmail.com
web: http://www.anonintelopscmd.com



PLEASE BE ADVISED!!!!!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 07, 2011, 08:35:14 AM
Interesting. The domain anonintelopscmd.com does not exist. You could even still register it (I'd advise against it).

Further "anonintelopscmd" is a Youtube account, but at least one video lays down a bunch of rules for very peaceful conduct at demonstrations, good advice, bordering on the toothless, even.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 07, 2011, 08:52:12 AM
I missed today's protest because I was fucking exhausted and opted for a nap instead. I did drive by the horde gathered at Pioneer Square and it looked like a massive turnout.

Here's the condensed report from Oregonlive:

Quote
Sgt. Pete Simpson of the Portland Police Bureau said officers monitored the participants camped out and planned to stay through the night to ensure things continued to run smoothly.

Officers will work with organizers Friday morning to make sure demonstrators leave the park by 9 a.m. so setup can begin for the Portland Marathon.

As of 10 p.m., no arrests were made and no reports of vandalism were received, Simpson said.

He credited the participants, police and community as a whole for what he called a "tremendous" day.

I'm impressed.

However, I heard from my baby's Momma and my baby's Auntie who lives in San Fransisco that the SF protest got somewhat ugly. Apparently the police jacked the protesters tents and personal belongings as well as lashing out at the protesters. The protesters linked up in a ring around the police who had converged on their encampment and apparently some people got beat. But what do you expect to happen when you pen the police in?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2011, 09:14:56 AM
Quote from: Telarus on October 07, 2011, 08:08:14 AM
So, this is interesting: http://pastebin.com/r2jB1wN4

A group of individuals are currently handing out business cards at OccupyLA that have the anon logo on them. They are suggesting to people to start looting and burning. They are claiming to BE anon. Anonymous stands for peaceful protest at all costs. That is our message. spread it.

CARD IMAGE: http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/1895/38516505819364459261317939907nrnEfquFLvHW9iNl14Us.JPG
The information on the card is as follows:

Name: S. Spicer
Cell: 213-447-4630
E: anonintelopscmd@gmail.com
web: http://www.anonintelopscmd.com



PLEASE BE ADVISED!!!!!

HB Gary.  169% certain.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 02:10:49 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 07:29:04 AM
Transfer Day is sounding like something that potentially has teeth. Open an account at a credit union, 11/5 transfer all of your funds from your corporate bank account into it.

that is INSANELY AWESOME

my roommate and I were just talking about how National Buy Nothing Day would be a lot more effective if it was National "Pull Your Cash Out Of The Private Banks and Put It In a Co-Op Bank Day"

glad somebody beat us to it!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 07, 2011, 02:44:09 PM
what's the difference between private banks and co-op banks and credit unions?

also, does this work? with the whole 99/1% thing going on, would the funds from a 99er even make a dent? especially the ones living from paycheck to paycheck, wouldn't have a lot of funds in their account in the first place, would they?

I guess it all depends on how much people you can realistically expect to do this. If it's 10,000 people and they all pull $200, that's 2 million dollars. And those are real dollars, the ones you can eat, not those fake multi billion dollars which are just electronic numbers and promises.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 07, 2011, 02:49:37 PM
i don't think it would considerably hurt the banks seeing as how their retail portions are so small in comparison to their investment banking portions.
further, if it did start to hurt them, i would imagine that they would just get some temporary reserve requirement waiver, or something.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 07, 2011, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 07, 2011, 02:49:37 PM
i don't think it would considerably hurt the banks seeing as how their retail portions are so small in comparison to their investment banking portions.
further, if it did start to hurt them, i would imagine that they would just get some temporary reserve requirement waiver, or something.

I think forcing them to do anything would be a small victory. Americans have danced to their tune long enough.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 07, 2011, 02:44:09 PM
what's the difference between private banks and co-op banks and credit unions?

It has to do with how the bank is managed

Private Bank = really owned by the principle shareholders
Cooperative bank = cooperatively owned by everybody that uses it


Private bank: 1 dollar = 1 vote
Co-Op Bank: 1 person = 1 vote


Quotealso, does this work? with the whole 99/1% thing going on, would the funds from a 99er even make a dent? especially the ones living from paycheck to paycheck, wouldn't have a lot of funds in their account in the first place, would they?

The idea is that you don't want to support the commercial banks. Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but it would make a lot of people feel better about where their money is and what it's being used for.

Also, credit unions don't get a lot of press. I just found out they existed about a year ago. The big drawback to using them is accessibility - but apparently somebody worked some magic behind the curtain and now you can withdraw from any McDonald's. That's actually more accessible than Chase!

People are so angry at these giant banks - most of these people don't realize that there IS an alternative.

QuoteI guess it all depends on how much people you can realistically expect to do this. If it's 10,000 people and they all pull $200, that's 2 million dollars. And those are real dollars, the ones you can eat, not those fake multi billion dollars which are just electronic numbers and promises.

We must, step by step, become a market which demands fiscal responsibility.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 07, 2011, 03:06:04 PM
oh cool, thanks for the explanation, cram!

I need to check, I'm pretty sure that at least one of the popular banks here is a co-op. But not mine, the Internationale Nederlanden Groep, homely as their orange Dutch lion seems, the ING is a pretty big global powerhouse :)


Quote from: Iptuous on October 07, 2011, 02:49:37 PM
i don't think it would considerably hurt the banks seeing as how their retail portions are so small in comparison to their investment banking portions.
further, if it did start to hurt them, i would imagine that they would just get some temporary reserve requirement waiver, or something.

yeah I figured something like that.

But as Cram said, the message is also somewhat important .. maybe?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 07, 2011, 03:10:36 PM
oh, i fully support doing it, and am considering it myself (even though, for various reasons it will be a major headache).

I've just heard people say that if we all take our money out of our checking accounts and put them into CUs, then the Big Bank will fall, and i don't believe that it would...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 07, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
http://www.findacreditunion.com/

Another difference is that credit unions are technically not open to the general public, but to a defined field of membership.  They will typically have a list on their website showing companies, churches, trade associations, etc., and if you are an employee/member or immediate family of an employee/member, then you are eligible.

I know of at least one credit union serving a trade association with a cheap lifetime membership fee, which seems to exist for no other purpose than to allow people to join the credit union.  I think it's supposed to have a newsletter or something, but I can't remember the last time I received one.

Typical membership requirements include maintaining a $25 balance in a savings account (known as a "share account" in credit union lingo).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 07, 2011, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 07, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
http://www.findacreditunion.com/

Another difference is that credit unions are technically not open to the general public, but to a defined field of membership.  They will typically have a list on their website showing companies, churches, trade associations, etc., and if you are an employee/member or immediate family of an employee/member, then you are eligible.

I know of at least one credit union serving a trade association with a cheap lifetime membership fee, which seems to exist for no other purpose than to allow people to join the credit union.  I think it's supposed to have a newsletter or something, but I can't remember the last time I received one.

Typical membership requirements include maintaining a $25 balance in a savings account (known as a "share account" in credit union lingo).

Here, without membership in any organization, CU's are advertising invitations to join.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 07, 2011, 05:21:58 PM
it appears that you can be a member of a community CU if you live in the defined area.
there's several near me that have that as their only requirement.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 07, 2011, 06:04:44 PM
Recently laws about Credit Union membership changed so that anyone local can join. I am not sure whether that was an Oregon law or a Federal law, though.

What I would really like to see are consumer choice laws that give the consumer more control over who can buy the servicing rights to their mortgage, and under what conditions those rights can be sold.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 07, 2011, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 06:04:44 PM
Recently laws about Credit Union membership changed so that anyone local can join. I am not sure whether that was an Oregon law or a Federal law, though.

What I would really like to see are consumer choice laws that give the consumer more control over who can buy the servicing rights to their mortgage, and under what conditions those rights can be sold.

GLWT
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 08:50:47 PM
If you're not friends with any tea party spags on facebook, here the sort of stuff you're missing:

(http://i.imgur.com/XPzpp.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 08:50:47 PM
If you're not friends with any tea party spags on facebook, here the sort of stuff you're missing:

(http://i.imgur.com/XPzpp.jpg)

Saw that on Capitol Grilling.

It's like saying that if you oppose abusive policies by oil companies, you should not drive or heat your home.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on October 07, 2011, 08:54:48 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 08:50:47 PM
If you're not friends with any tea party spags on facebook, here the sort of stuff you're missing:

(http://i.imgur.com/XPzpp.jpg)

Saw that on Capitol Grilling.

It's like saying that if you oppose abusive policies by oil companies, you should not drive or heat your home.

Oh yes, another cutting off ones nose thing?  I can't understand the thinking behind that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Eater of Clowns on October 07, 2011, 11:11:45 PM
All protests must be done naked with body paint signs made from gathered berries.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2011, 11:24:39 PM
I did not know banks made smartphones, cameras, posters and makeup.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 11:40:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 07, 2011, 11:24:39 PM
I did not know banks made smartphones, cameras, posters and makeup.

The framing I've heard is that without Wall Street/Banks, the companies that make them couldn't get funding. Because, you know, private citizens never invest in potentially profitable ideas.

And just for the record, I only protest while wearing garments of woven flax and hand-carved wooden shoes. I'm not going to tell you how I make my signs because it involves killing an adorable woodland creature.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2011, 11:44:37 PM
Also, banks have been notoriously stingy when it comes to loans for the past few years, even with massive and well known firms (our town had a major ie international firm headquarted there, and they were having trouble securing loans.  They made lighting systems for fucks sake.  Everyone needs new lights at some point).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2011, 11:57:14 PM
http://asiancorrespondent.com/66717/occupy-wall-street-protests-staged-by-chinese-pensioners/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 11:57:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 07, 2011, 11:44:37 PM
Also, banks have been notoriously stingy when it comes to loans for the past few years, even with massive and well known firms (our town had a major ie international firm headquarted there, and they were having trouble securing loans.  They made lighting systems for fucks sake.  Everyone needs new lights at some point).

I think a teabagger would inform you that lights are just a luxury that the nanny state has convinced us that we need. Not entirely sure how that ties to the idea that it's perfectly legitimate to take huge bailouts while cutting lending, but I think Kevin Bacon is involved somehow.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 08, 2011, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 08:50:47 PM
If you're not friends with any tea party spags on facebook, here the sort of stuff you're missing:

(http://i.imgur.com/XPzpp.jpg)

Saw that on Capitol Grilling.

It's like saying that if you oppose abusive policies by oil companies, you should not drive or heat your home.

Yes, exactly. It's like saying that you're a hypocrite for wanting options other than the corporate town, because after all you LIVE in the corporate town.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 08, 2011, 04:19:20 AM
It's saying these people are UNGRATEFUL and instead of protesting they should be on their knees THANKING Dow Corning, Samsung, Clairol, etc. EVEN THOUGH THEY ALREADY PAID INFLATED PRICES FOR THE CHEAP SHODDY SHIT FROM CHINA.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 08, 2011, 04:27:38 AM
I think this is concentrated, bottled-up butthurt from those photographs of TP protesters where all the things that were paid for with taxes are pointed out.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 08, 2011, 07:21:21 AM
Quote from: Net on October 08, 2011, 04:27:38 AM
I think this is concentrated, bottled-up butthurt from those photographs of TP protesters where all the things that were paid for with taxes are pointed out.

I'm stunned and impressed that they had the brainpower to make the correlation.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Epimetheus on October 08, 2011, 07:52:25 AM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on October 07, 2011, 11:11:45 PM
All protests must be done naked with body paint signs made from gathered berries.

I would argue this without any political reason at all.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2011, 12:51:12 PM
In reference to the earlier sneering, about how "people still have fridges"....well, I hate to go all Poli Sci 101 on everyone again, but most revolutions by a dispossessed underclass actually happen after the worst of it is over and things look like they're recovering.

In the French Revolution, for example, there had been an economic crash shortly before hand (I can't exactly remember when) but prices of bread etc were going down and wages were going up when the revolution struck.  Equally, going by the CIA World Factbook data on Libya, there was a country where, by African and Middle East standards, things were pretty good and getting better (economically, at least).

When times are really bad, people are just looking to survive.  But when things improve a little....well, then they're looking for revenge.  If anything, this should cause concern, not sneering among the pundit class.

But it wont, because almost none of the pundit class have the necessary historical awareness to think in those terms.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 08, 2011, 03:37:50 PM
Considering what a lot of us have had to go through, revenge is appropriate.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on October 08, 2011, 11:34:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzeNkhXAIm0

Now Alex Jones is doing "Occupy the FED"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 08, 2011, 11:38:53 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 08:50:47 PM
If you're not friends with any tea party spags on facebook, here the sort of stuff you're missing:

(http://i.imgur.com/XPzpp.jpg)

Saw that on Capitol Grilling.

It's like saying that if you oppose abusive policies by oil companies, you should not drive or heat your home.

Yes, exactly. It's like saying that you're a hypocrite for wanting options other than the corporate town, because after all you LIVE in the corporate town.

It's also over looking why people are angry. They're not angry that corporations are giving us all sorts of products. They're angry because they basically own the government and fucked the economy.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:49:46 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 08, 2011, 11:38:53 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2011, 08:50:47 PM
If you're not friends with any tea party spags on facebook, here the sort of stuff you're missing:

(http://i.imgur.com/XPzpp.jpg)

Saw that on Capitol Grilling.

It's like saying that if you oppose abusive policies by oil companies, you should not drive or heat your home.

Yes, exactly. It's like saying that you're a hypocrite for wanting options other than the corporate town, because after all you LIVE in the corporate town.

It's also over looking why people are angry. They're not angry that corporations are giving us all sorts of products. They're angry because they basically own the government and fucked the economy.

Yeah, it's essentially a red herring.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 09, 2011, 08:34:38 AM
the razors by gillette guy seems pretty cool
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:43:46 PM
Sooooo....I went down to the Tucson occupy, and I was the only guy there.

JUST LIKE WHEN I TROLL FROM PD.

:crankey:

Dok,
What if you had a revolution, and nobody came?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:43:46 PM
Sooooo....I went down to the Tucson occupy, and I was the only guy there.

JUST LIKE WHEN I TROLL FROM PD.

:crankey:

Dok,
What if you had a revolution, and nobody came?

Oh, Tucson. Seriously? I AM ASHAME.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:46:22 PM
Oh Dok. I looked it up and it's NEXT Saturday!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:48:19 PM
In Portland, the mayor and the police department are joining the rally today for a march down the waterfront.

The mayor is a douche, but a smart douche. It's really hard to feel righteously indignant when the Authoratay is like, standing in solidarity for your cause, man.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 09, 2011, 05:48:50 PM
Whew.
I mean, if nobody's dissatisfied in Tuscon, we're fucked.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:49:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:46:22 PM
Oh Dok. I looked it up and it's NEXT Saturday!

Can I get one of those DERP things you have?  I promise to read the label this time.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 09, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:48:19 PM
In Portland, the mayor and the police department are joining the rally today for a march down the waterfront.

The mayor is a douche, but a smart douche. It's really hard to feel righteously indignant when the Authoratay is like, standing in solidarity for your cause, man.

Maybe somebody can publicly unmask his bullshit, somehow.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:50:02 PM
I hear that downtown is full of tents. I need to go check it out.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 09, 2011, 05:56:29 PM
Do eet. Keep us posted...  :D
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 06:00:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:49:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:46:22 PM
Oh Dok. I looked it up and it's NEXT Saturday!

Can I get one of those DERP things you have?  I promise to read the label this time.

:lulz:

Everybody's done it. Alone and seething with RAAAAAGE, until they get home and look at the calender and say "oh."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on October 09, 2011, 06:02:15 PM
When I first started hearing about objections to the Occupy protests, the imediatly reminded me of that fallacious argument Dawkins used at that conference to belittle a woman harassed at night in an elevator.

I think, because I'm seeing this everywhere, it needs a name, so I'm going to start calling it the argumentum ad oblitum, or more simply the Dawkins Fallacy.

The Dawkins fallacy is when a problem of larger scope is used as a foil to dismantle protest over a problem seemingly of smaller scope. The smaller scope argument superficially seems to disappear under the larger scope, but it is actually only dismissed or belittled, not refuted.

The lowest level and least insidious version of this is the child who argues about eating their poorly cooked vegetables and the parent uses children starving in Africa to quiet them. The worst offenders use the foil of international problems to keep individuals from seeking to improve their lives, they should be content with what they have because others have it worse off. Don't like your shitty job? At least you HAVE a shitty job, tones of people don't, so you should be content with it. Don't like getting harrassed in the workplace? Why are you complaining about workplace harassement when women in the middle east have to wear burkhas and get raped daily?

It may be cognitive bias, but I'm starting to see Dawkins Fallacy everywhere.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 06:14:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 06:00:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:49:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 05:46:22 PM
Oh Dok. I looked it up and it's NEXT Saturday!

Can I get one of those DERP things you have?  I promise to read the label this time.

:lulz:

Everybody's done it. Alone and seething with RAAAAAGE, until they get home and look at the calender and say "oh."


(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa417/DoktorHowl/derp1.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 09, 2011, 06:15:24 PM
 :lulz: :lulz:

NICE. The expressions are dead-on.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 06:31:02 PM
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa417/DoktorHowl/derp2.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:22:56 PM
 :lulz:  These are glorious!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:23:55 PM
Also, that second one is terrifying.

:scared:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 07:26:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:22:56 PM
:lulz:  These are glorious!

Working on a BIG one, but it will be at least Wednesday before it's done.  When I post it, would you please c&p your original piece?  I want to mix things up a bit and then maybe take out an ad.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 07:27:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:23:55 PM
Also, that second one is terrifying.

:scared:

I'm sort of banking on the fact that I downloaded the original causing some horrible child to crawl out of my mirror and kill us all.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 09, 2011, 08:07:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 07:26:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:22:56 PM
:lulz:  These are glorious!

Working on a BIG one, but it will be at least Wednesday before it's done.  When I post it, would you please c&p your original piece?  I want to mix things up a bit and then maybe take out an ad.

I certainly will, but the funny thing is that I don't know what piece you're referring to, and I've been wondering if I managed to post something awesome without knowing it.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2011, 04:49:12 AM
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/10/09/339788/conservative-infiltrate-99-percent-movement/

QuoteAn assistant editor with a right-wing magazine admitted in a column Saturday evening to posing as part of the 99 Percent Movement in D.C. "in order to mock and undermine" it. Patrick Howley, an assistant editor for the American Spectator, was committed enough to his deception to be at the vanguard of a demonstration that saw police firing pepper spray and closing a downtown Washington museum.

In his column, Howley says he took part in the demonstration Saturday at the Smithsonian Institute's Air and Space Museum reportedly directed at an exhibit about the unmanned drone aircraft used by the U.S. and others for spying and, increasingly, targeted killings in far-flung hotspots.

As between 100 and 200 anti-war demonstrators arrived at the steps of the museum — some of them affiliated with a group organizing the "Occupy DC" spinoff of the Wall Street protests — a few intrepid protesters made a rush for the door despite apparent warnings from security guards. One of them was Howley, who recounts that "as far as I could tell I was the only one who got inside the museum."

I am shocked, SHOCKED to discover people infiltrating the protests.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 05:52:40 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 10, 2011, 04:49:12 AM
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/10/09/339788/conservative-infiltrate-99-percent-movement/

QuoteAn assistant editor with a right-wing magazine admitted in a column Saturday evening to posing as part of the 99 Percent Movement in D.C. "in order to mock and undermine" it. Patrick Howley, an assistant editor for the American Spectator, was committed enough to his deception to be at the vanguard of a demonstration that saw police firing pepper spray and closing a downtown Washington museum.

In his column, Howley says he took part in the demonstration Saturday at the Smithsonian Institute's Air and Space Museum reportedly directed at an exhibit about the unmanned drone aircraft used by the U.S. and others for spying and, increasingly, targeted killings in far-flung hotspots.

As between 100 and 200 anti-war demonstrators arrived at the steps of the museum — some of them affiliated with a group organizing the "Occupy DC" spinoff of the Wall Street protests — a few intrepid protesters made a rush for the door despite apparent warnings from security guards. One of them was Howley, who recounts that "as far as I could tell I was the only one who got inside the museum."

I am shocked, SHOCKED to discover people infiltrating the protests.

I KNOW, RITE?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 10, 2011, 01:12:49 PM
Occupy has gone global. Looks like people are pissed.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 10, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
I think these two are just hoping for mindless violence.

(http://pics.livejournal.com/evandorkin/pic/000gpg21/s640x480)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2011, 01:26:19 PM
I love how the Teabaggers are collectively losing their shit over one of the most middle-class and reformist (as opposed to revolutionary) movements out there, as if Leon Trotsky and Zombie Lenin were leading the "Occupy" movement.

Lets face it: "I have a law degree but I now work as a barista, something has fucked up" is not exactly "workers of the world, unite!"

This further proves my thesis that if a Teabagger actually met a Communist, they would shit themselves in terror.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 10, 2011, 01:34:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 10, 2011, 01:26:19 PM
I love how the Teabaggers are collectively losing their shit over one of the most middle-class and reformist (as opposed to revolutionary) movements out there, as if Leon Trotsky and Zombie Lenin were leading the "Occupy" movement.

Lets face it: "I have a law degree but I now work as a barista, something has fucked up" is not exactly "workers of the world, unite!"

This further proves my thesis that if a Teabagger actually met a Communist, they would shit themselves in terror.

I love your take on this, it also has me giggling over the teabagger meeting a communist.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 10, 2011, 01:38:27 PM
There have been some very good posters circulating recently, but this could be my favorite.

(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/295825_2379089752543_1109621843_32778084_741179334_n.jpg)

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 10, 2011, 01:54:22 PM
I was pretty sure this was going to happen, and I believe Roger had a rant concerning this: 

Liberal protest scope creep.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/07/politics/occupy-wall-street/index.html

Not content with staying on point, activists are starting to branch out and use the Occupy movement to further their own agenda.

I expect PETA to show up any time now.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 10, 2011, 02:15:01 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 10, 2011, 01:54:22 PM
I was pretty sure this was going to happen, and I believe Roger had a rant concerning this: 

Liberal protest scope creep.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/07/politics/occupy-wall-street/index.html

Not content with staying on point, activists are starting to branch out and use the Occupy movement to further their own agenda.

I expect PETA to show up any time now.

And Obama continues to bend over for Wall Street while trying to toss the protestors a dried up bone. Do we have no leaders left in this country?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 03:59:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 10, 2011, 01:26:19 PM
I love how the Teabaggers are collectively losing their shit over one of the most middle-class and reformist (as opposed to revolutionary) movements out there, as if Leon Trotsky and Zombie Lenin were leading the "Occupy" movement.

Lets face it: "I have a law degree but I now work as a barista, something has fucked up" is not exactly "workers of the world, unite!"

This further proves my thesis that if a Teabagger actually met a Communist, they would shit themselves in terror.

You know, shit is really wrong here. As facile as it is to try to boil it down to overly entitled college graduates who can't get the job they want, shit is really, actually, very wrong here. At this point, it doesn't matter whether Occupy has a strong united message. In fact, it's better that it doesn't, because that means more people will get off their unemployed, indebted, in-danger-of-being-homeless asses and stand in the street screaming.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2011, 04:14:20 PM
Oh, I know its not entirely that.  However, it is far closer to that than it is to a Communist uprising, as the Teabaggers would have it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 10, 2011, 04:14:20 PM
Oh, I know its not entirely that.  However, it is far closer to that than it is to a Communist uprising, as the Teabaggers would have it.

Yeah, that's true. Teabaggers.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 10, 2011, 01:54:22 PM
I was pretty sure this was going to happen, and I believe Roger had a rant concerning this: 

Liberal protest scope creep.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/07/politics/occupy-wall-street/index.html

Not content with staying on point, activists are starting to branch out and use the Occupy movement to further their own agenda.

I expect PETA to show up any time now.

HAW HAW!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

This is true.

However, the way Occupy Portland has been handling this so far is to treat any groups with an actual message as a separate group, and say that they are grateful to have their support.

Working fairly well so far. "Gosh war protesters, we're sure glad you came out to stand with us today!"

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

This is true.

However, the way Occupy Portland has been handling this so far is to treat any groups with an actual message as a separate group, and say that they are grateful to have their support.

Working fairly well so far. "Gosh war protesters, we're sure glad you came out to stand with us today!"



Problem:  The media just LOVES mixed messages.  So the anti-war guys have their signs, and the WTO guys have their signs, and the animal rights folks have THEIR signs, and the media settles into "Look at the cute activists", which is what they really, desperately want to do.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:25:06 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

This is true.

However, the way Occupy Portland has been handling this so far is to treat any groups with an actual message as a separate group, and say that they are grateful to have their support.

Working fairly well so far. "Gosh war protesters, we're sure glad you came out to stand with us today!"



Problem:  The media just LOVES mixed messages.  So the anti-war guys have their signs, and the WTO guys have their signs, and the animal rights folks have THEIR signs, and the media settles into "Look at the cute activists", which is what they really, desperately want to do.

Yes, they will latch onto anything to try to diffuse the threat. But the funny thing is that their responses are revealing that they ARE seeing it as a threat now, and I find that HILARIOUS.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:25:06 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

This is true.

However, the way Occupy Portland has been handling this so far is to treat any groups with an actual message as a separate group, and say that they are grateful to have their support.

Working fairly well so far. "Gosh war protesters, we're sure glad you came out to stand with us today!"



Problem:  The media just LOVES mixed messages.  So the anti-war guys have their signs, and the WTO guys have their signs, and the animal rights folks have THEIR signs, and the media settles into "Look at the cute activists", which is what they really, desperately want to do.

Yes, they will latch onto anything to try to diffuse the threat. But the funny thing is that their responses are revealing that they ARE seeing it as a threat now, and I find that HILARIOUS.

So do I.  But they have this shit down to a science, now, and the inability of the left to stay on message will give them whatever they need to turn this into a joke like the anti-war rallies of 2003-2005.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:54:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:25:06 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

This is true.

However, the way Occupy Portland has been handling this so far is to treat any groups with an actual message as a separate group, and say that they are grateful to have their support.

Working fairly well so far. "Gosh war protesters, we're sure glad you came out to stand with us today!"



Problem:  The media just LOVES mixed messages.  So the anti-war guys have their signs, and the WTO guys have their signs, and the animal rights folks have THEIR signs, and the media settles into "Look at the cute activists", which is what they really, desperately want to do.

Yes, they will latch onto anything to try to diffuse the threat. But the funny thing is that their responses are revealing that they ARE seeing it as a threat now, and I find that HILARIOUS.

So do I.  But they have this shit down to a science, now, and the inability of the left to stay on message will give them whatever they need to turn this into a joke like the anti-war rallies of 2003-2005.

I am unconvinced. It's still picking up momentum... I predict it will last until flu breaks out in the encampments.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:55:12 PM
(Next month. Though if I were the banks, I'd make sure it happened sooner than that.)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on October 10, 2011, 06:58:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8svbm4WYmU
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 10, 2011, 07:56:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

But the people that get that, can do their utmost best to confuse matters, right?

And about picking up momentum ... REAL momentum gets picked up in less than 3 days. Otherwise it's just waiting until something happens.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:01:12 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 10, 2011, 07:56:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

Doesn't matter.  Each subgroup involved in the protest will HAVE to pimp out their own message, at the expense of the actual purpose of the occupy movement.

They can't help themselves.  Fanatics are that way.

But the people that get that, can do their utmost best to confuse matters, right?

And about picking up momentum ... REAL momentum gets picked up in less than 3 days. Otherwise it's just waiting until something happens.

Are you saying that participation in Occupy HASN'T been picking up speed since the inception?  :? Because yesterday there was some sick number of thousands of people milling around Portland in the name of Occupy.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 10, 2011, 08:04:52 PM
No no, not at all, sorry.

I just read today is the 21st day of these protests?

How long did that Arab Spring stuff take before shit started changing?

It was more of a badly worded cheering on :)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:10:43 PM
I mean...

(http://cmsimg.statesmanjournal.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=J0&Date=20111007&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=110070337&Ref=AR&MaxW=300&Border=0&Thousands-demonstrate-Portland-part-Occupy-Wall-Street-movement)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e2/This_Is_What_Occupied_Portland_Looks_Like.jpg/300px-This_Is_What_Occupied_Portland_Looks_Like.jpg)

It's still growing here.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
Oh, OK. :) It's only been four days for Portland, but it's growing really fast.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:13:08 PM
Here's the article I ripped those pics off from: http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20111007/NEWS/110070337/Thousands-demonstrate-Portland-part-Occupy-Wall-Street-movement?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CNews

It will be interesting to see what next weekend brings.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
Oh, OK. :) It's only been four days for Portland, but it's growing really fast.

How long before some "protesters" give the cops an excuse to Seattle everyone?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:17:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
Oh, OK. :) It's only been four days for Portland, but it's growing really fast.

How long before some "protesters" give the cops an excuse to Seattle everyone?

I don't know, but the cops are under strict orders not to use threatening movements of intimidating body language, which I think is  :lulz:

The protesters and the cops are making a distinct effort to be friendly to one another, and there are signs everywhere that say things like "be nice to the police, they're 99%ers too". When I was there yesterday I saw a lot of cops and protesters talking and joking. It's a little strained, but I think the realization is that there's a lot at stake. A massacre in the park in front of the courthouse would not go over easy.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 08:18:21 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:17:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
Oh, OK. :) It's only been four days for Portland, but it's growing really fast.

How long before some "protesters" give the cops an excuse to Seattle everyone?

I don't know, but the cops are under strict orders not to use threatening movements of intimidating body language, which I think is  :lulz:

The protesters and the cops are making a distinct effort to be friendly to one another, and there are signs everywhere that say things like "be nice to the police, they're 99%ers too". When I was there yesterday I saw a lot of cops and protesters talking and joking. It's a little strained, but I think the realization is that there's a lot at stake. A massacre in the park in front of the courthouse would not go over easy.

Here, the cops either looked into it, or stood around bored and drank coffee.

Which is how things ought to be.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 10, 2011, 08:23:27 PM
I didn't see/hear it, but I heard some of the cops were actually doing the whole "solidarity fist pump" and chanting with us at the march in Portland on Saturday.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2011, 08:24:06 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 10, 2011, 08:23:27 PM
I didn't see/hear it, but I heard the cops were actually doing the whole "solidarity fist pump" and chanting with us at the march on Saturday.  :lulz:

OH, SHIT!  Terrorist cops!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 10, 2011, 08:33:51 PM
I'm going to write up a piece on the idea of symbolism as it regards the Occupy movement today. I already wrote a piece on trying to find "meaning" for the movement (http://laughinjude.com/2011/10/in-search-of-the-meaning-of-the-occupation-movement/) yesterday. I'm wondering if it might be best to look at the Occupy movement as a type of social networking platform in meatspace for various groups that are dissatisfied. We're probably shooting ourselves in the foot if we start trying to stand for something specific, though of course the media/government (same thing) want us to do so because that makes us easier to argue against directly. Still working on how I want to put it...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 11, 2011, 12:54:03 AM
GIT OFF MAH LAWN!
\
:bankster:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 11, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
It begins...

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/the_worst_ows_moment_so_far/

QuoteOn Monday night, Boston police broke up the Occupy Boston protest, and in the process, they tore down an American flag and knocked down at least one American military veteran...when the American flag starts to totter, it's like the Iwo Jima moment in reverse.


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 11, 2011, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 11, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
It begins...

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/the_worst_ows_moment_so_far/

QuoteOn Monday night, Boston police broke up the Occupy Boston protest, and in the process, they tore down an American flag and knocked down at least one American military veteran...when the American flag starts to totter, it's like the Iwo Jima moment in reverse.




I will leave it to you to guess which master was chosen.

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God  America and Money.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 11, 2011, 04:29:35 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 11, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
It begins...

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/the_worst_ows_moment_so_far/

QuoteOn Monday night, Boston police broke up the Occupy Boston protest, and in the process, they tore down an American flag and knocked down at least one American military veteran...when the American flag starts to totter, it's like the Iwo Jima moment in reverse.




It's only gonna get funnier from here.

What, you fuckers want more Slack™? 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 04:50:01 PM
Conservatives are getting their counter-meme on.

Red State owner, Erik Erikson (yes, that is his real name, sadly) has helped set up a blog called "We are the 53%", based on the statistic that only 53% of Americans pay taxes and, uh, non-taxpayers are not allowed to get involved in politics, or something.

Erikson's own post to the site is hilarious:

QuoteI work 3 jobs.
I have a house a can't sell.
My family insurance costs are outrageous.
But I don't blame Wall Street.
Suck it up you whiners.
I am the 53% subsidizing you so you can hang out on Wall Street and complain.

Two of those jobs involve blogging, and one of them involves appearing on CNN.  Clearly, Erik son of Erik is a true representative of the average working American.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 11, 2011, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 11, 2011, 04:50:01 PM
Conservatives are getting their counter-meme on.

Red State owner, Erik Erikson (yes, that is his real name, sadly) has helped set up a blog called "We are the 53%", based on the statistic that only 53% of Americans pay taxes and, uh, non-taxpayers are not allowed to get involved in politics, or something.

Erikson's own post to the site is hilarious:

QuoteI work 3 jobs.
I have a house a can't sell.
My family insurance costs are outrageous.
But I don't blame Wall Street.
Suck it up you whiners.
I am the 53% subsidizing you so you can hang out on Wall Street and complain.

Two of those jobs involve blogging, and one of them involves appearing on CNN.  Clearly, Erik son of Erik is a true representative of the average working American.

Total fail.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 11, 2011, 05:06:09 PM
Surely, he only means income taxes, and not payroll, et al?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:07:02 PM
Oh, it gets even better!  Erikson is working with Josh Trevino, blah blah think tank wotsit, but better known for his endorsement of concentration camps in Iraq (http://joshua.trevino.at/?p=168):

QuoteThe fundamental strategic flaw in the American war effort has always been one of under-manning coupled with a too-soft approach to the civilian population in which the insurgency thrives. This last may seem grotesque in light of the recent Lancet study alleging c.600,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since 2003 (which, unlike most of my conservative colleagues, I suspect is not wildly off the mark), but the point is not to urge killing or repression of civilians for its own sake. Rather, the point is to do what it takes to win. In this case, with a popular resistance to occupation and ethnic divisions at play, the applicable counterinsurgency models are Algeria and South Africa. In the former, the French military was able to seal Algerian borders to virtually end the influx of weapons and men to the FLN; and they put more Muslims under arms for France â€" the harkis â€" than fought for independence. (Algeria was lost due to French politics rather than military events, so we may still look to it for pragmatic lessons on the latter front.) In the latter, the Boer War period saw the Afrikaner nation virtually united in its opposition to British conquest. The exploits of the Boer guerrilla columns were models for insurgencies in the subsequent century, tying down nearly a quarter-million Imperial soldiers in pursuit of a few thousand horsemen. The British did what they had to do to win: they separated the women and children from the men, and caused the veld to be strewn with barbed wire and blockhouses. It was massive, it was expensive, it was heartbreaking, and it worked. A decade later, South African units went into battle for the King in the First World War.

    [...]Conceptually, the Algerian-style sealing of Iraqi borders coupled with Boer War-style civilian control measures are workable and even just.[...]

Trevino is quite obsessed with the British response to the Boer War, as any casual reading of his blog will show.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:08:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 11, 2011, 05:06:09 PM
Surely, he only means income taxes, and not payroll, et al?

Federal level income, yes.

That the 47% earn so little that they do not get taxed is fundamentally an indictment not of the economic situation of the USA or the unreasonable expectations of the Federal Government, but those lazy, welfare bums protesting in New York.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 11, 2011, 05:11:31 PM
One of the more horrific thing I've seen in the "poor people should shut the hell up" genre (which I'm assuming the 53% nonsense is a part of):

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/09/registering_the_poor_to_vote_is_un-american.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/09/registering_the_poor_to_vote_is_un-american.html)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on October 11, 2011, 05:13:30 PM
i got full up on stupid just reading the URL...
too stupid; didn't click
:lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 11, 2011, 05:16:00 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 11, 2011, 05:13:30 PM
i got full up on stupid just reading the URL...
too stupid; didn't click
:lol:

It gets much stupider from there.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:23:47 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/PUZ0M.png)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:40:31 PM
Just checked.  Federal income tax doesn't kick in unless you're earning about $50,000 a year.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 11, 2011, 05:50:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:40:31 PM
Just checked.  Federal income tax doesn't kick in unless you're earning about $50,000 a year.

The mode income is $19,800/yr.

And this guy is saying that only those who pay income tax should have a vote?

Pretty sure that's what the confederate states wanted.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 11, 2011, 05:57:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 11, 2011, 05:50:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:40:31 PM
Just checked.  Federal income tax doesn't kick in unless you're earning about $50,000 a year.

The mode income is $19,800/yr.

And this guy is saying that only those who pay income tax should have a vote?

Pretty sure that's what the confederate states wanted.


It's been a while since I read the article I linked, but he was mainly against allowing people receiving government assistance to vote--don't remember if he took it out to exclude those who don't pay income tax as well or not. I don't think Erik Erik Erikson of Erikland has argued that only people who pay taxes should have a vote, but he certainly seems to be suggesting that only people who pay taxes should have a voice. Different nuts, same tree.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 11, 2011, 06:06:44 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 11, 2011, 05:57:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 11, 2011, 05:50:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:40:31 PM
Just checked.  Federal income tax doesn't kick in unless you're earning about $50,000 a year.

The mode income is $19,800/yr.

And this guy is saying that only those who pay income tax should have a vote?

Pretty sure that's what the confederate states wanted.


It's been a while since I read the article I linked, but he was mainly against allowing people receiving government assistance to vote--don't remember if he took it out to exclude those who don't pay income tax as well or not. I don't think Erik Erik Erikson of Erikland has argued that only people who pay taxes should have a vote, but he certainly seems to be suggesting that only people who pay taxes should have a voice. Different nuts, same tree.



Well, that eliminates most of the Tea Party, at least.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 11, 2011, 08:36:45 PM
I liked this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/protesters-against-wall-street.html?_r=1
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on October 11, 2011, 09:12:28 PM
I've heard that the London version kicks off this weekend.

I literally just realized that this is going to be the first big protest since the London Riots took place. Given the amount of conflation in the media regarding how 'toothless' the police were 'forced' to be after the criticism they received for the G20 protests, as though the riots and peaceful protests are the same thing... and this will be the first test of the new Commissioner. Who interestingly, had a career primarily focused on financial fraud, and has an MBA.

I suspect that it is going to become very bloody before the day is out. If the police can instigate a second round of 'riots' in the heart of London before the end of the year, the chances of the 20% cuts going through becomes rather slimmer, and they'll get free rein to use whatever tactics they like to stop the next bunch of 'sick elements of our society' acting up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 09:13:53 PM
It'll be interesting, for sure.

Glad I'm working that weekend, to be honest.  Not that I expect Islington to be the front line of battling the police.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on October 11, 2011, 09:15:54 PM
I'm in two minds. I have plans for Sunday, but I almost want to drop it and be there.

On the other hand, I'm attached to my teeth.

It is a dilemma.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2011, 09:19:58 PM
I would say not going there for fear of the police is letting police brutality win (but check you're registered with an affordable dentist).

On the other hand, if you've already committed to something...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on October 11, 2011, 09:48:09 PM
I want to go but I need a new washing machine more.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2011, 09:54:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 11, 2011, 05:50:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 11, 2011, 05:40:31 PM
Just checked.  Federal income tax doesn't kick in unless you're earning about $50,000 a year.

The mode income is $19,800/yr.

And this guy is saying that only those who pay income tax should have a vote?

Pretty sure that's what the confederate states wanted.

It gets even better http://plainblogaboutpolitics.blogspot.com/2011/10/that-53-tumblr.html

Quotethe other story in the "53%" group is that I'm pretty confident that a substantial portion of them...don't actually pay income taxes, and therefore are not, in fact, part of the 53% of households who do. For example, this citizen claims to be a college senior working "30+ hours a week making just barely over minimum wage." Which is great and all, but if that's all he's got he's not paying any income tax. Just as a guess, I'd be surprised if any fewer than 10% of the posters are actually income-tax free, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's about 50/50.

What I'd be curious about is what some of these folks would say if they realized that they're not actually part of "the 53%." Of course, to be fair they all do pay taxes; they just -- perhaps -- don't pay income taxes.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
Meanwhile, in DC...

http://news.yahoo.com/democrats-seek-own-occupy-wall-street-movement-222048239.html

QuoteOccupation can lead to ownership, whether or not you want it.

The spread of the "Occupy Wall Street" movement was met with initial hesitation in both the Democratic and Republican parties. That might be an appropriate response to any protests that aim themselves squarely at the establishment, particularly those with goals that are diverse and diffuse as the current protesters' are.

But a consensus is emerging among Democrats that the "Occupy" movement is worth tapping into, even helping along and joining with in some instances.

"I support the message to the establishment," House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said on ABC's "This Week." "Change has to happen. We cannot continue in a way that does not -- that is not relevant to their lives. People are angry."

To Democrats eager for a liberal antidote to the Tea Party energy that lifted Republicans to power last year, the "Occupy" rallies that started in New York last month and have spread to cities nationwide are tempting to embrace.

In their broadest focus, the protesters channel the indignation Democrats are trying to stir up in the year before the presidential election. The Obama White House is seeking to rally the public for a jobs package and deficit-reduction ideas that argue for the rich and corporate America to pay more -- goals the protesters largely share.

"The protesters are giving voice to a more broad-based frustration about how our financial system works," President Obama said last week when asked at a news conference about the "Occupy Wall Street" events.

It may be that occupiers wind up playing a role for the political left that tea partiers did for the right. But Republicans had one significant advantage in taking ownership of the Tea Party phenomenon: they were entirely out of power in Washington when the movement took root.

To occupiers, at least some of the blame for their perceived lack of accountability in corporate America rests with the current Democratic administration. A persistent liberal critique of Obama administration has been its coziness with Wall Street, and the lack of more drastic actions to repair the economy after eight years under George W. Bush.

In that sense, the protests may highlight divisions inside the Democratic Party even more than they motivate the party faithful.

The tea party faced major internal rifts -- including some that almost certainly cost Republicans Senate seats last year -- in its infancy. But most of those divisions have long since healed, as tea partiers work almost entirely in concert with Republicans, with the prospect of defeating Obama next year serving as a unifying influence.

The movement has some Republicans concerned -- worried enough to start swinging back.

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Va., has expressed concern about the "growing mobs" that are engaged in "the pitting of Americans against Americans."

Cantor's condemnation of members of Congress who are rooting the protesters on echoes conservative commentators who are belittling and delegitimizing the protests. "Occupy Wall Street" hasn't matched the Tea Party when it comes to numbers, or to concrete goals, though neither movement could ever boast of being monolithic.

Others have gone farther in denouncing the current round of protests. Tea Party Rep. Paul Broun, R-Ga., last week labeled the "Occupy" protests as an "attack upon freedom," and suggested that labor unions have hijacked the movement to boost the president's reelection prospects.

"They don't know why they're there. They're just mad," Broun said of the protesters, on ABC's "Top Line."

Anger, of course, respects no political boundaries these days. Many of the Republicans who are now critical of "Occupy" were cheering the Tea Party movement on.

Now it's Democrats who get to learn the lesson: Channeling the emotions of anger in politics is seldom as simple as it seems.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 12, 2011, 02:10:11 PM
Um. First have them put their money where there mouth is.

If the Occupiers are smart they won't trust any Democrat until they are willing to put their fucking career on the line if that's what it takes to achieve the changes the Occupy movement wants to see. Not "next year if you let us win the elections"--heard that one before--but right now. Of course, Republicans are also allowed to play. The only way they can earn trust is if they show they are willing to stand against their corporate owners, preferably taking them down a few M$.

Of course that won't happen, but IMO the Occupiers should not aim for anything less.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 12, 2011, 02:10:11 PM
Um. First have them put their money where there mouth is.

If the Occupiers are smart they won't trust any Democrat until they are willing to put their fucking career on the line if that's what it takes to achieve the changes the Occupy movement wants to see. Not "next year if you let us win the elections"--heard that one before--but right now. Of course, Republicans are also allowed to play. The only way they can earn trust is if they show they are willing to stand against their corporate owners, preferably taking them down a few M$.

Of course that won't happen, but IMO the Occupiers should not aim for anything less.

I mostly agree.  But personally I hope the Occupy crowd pushes even bigger.  It will take incredible momentum and very lofty goals to reverse the destructive trend we are on as a species.  I hope Occupy settles for nothing less than every demand on that list I saw posted somewhere.  Including the government taking back the banking systems, the wiping of student debts, all of it.  I still have some pessimistic voice telling me they will throw us a couple bones to placate us and over time it will work and Occupy will lose steam.  But, I hope not.  I will be there, as often as I can.  I will buy a camera, to document, and convince my friends and peers to go as well.  I just wish I could shut that little voice up.

Luckily, there's another voice in there telling me that predicting the future is a useless exercise, and my responsibility is to do what I can to help the momentum regardless of pessimistic instincts.

VOICES IN MAH HEAD!  HALP ME DOK!

Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:39:14 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 12, 2011, 02:10:11 PM
Um. First have them put their money where there mouth is.

If the Occupiers are smart they won't trust any Democrat until they are willing to put their fucking career on the line if that's what it takes to achieve the changes the Occupy movement wants to see. Not "next year if you let us win the elections"--heard that one before--but right now. Of course, Republicans are also allowed to play. The only way they can earn trust is if they show they are willing to stand against their corporate owners, preferably taking them down a few M$.

Of course that won't happen, but IMO the Occupiers should not aim for anything less.

I mostly agree.  But personally I hope the Occupy crowd pushes even bigger.  It will take incredible momentum and very lofty goals to reverse the destructive trend we are on as a species.  I hope Occupy settles for nothing less than every demand on that list I saw posted somewhere.  Including the government taking back the banking systems, the wiping of student debts, all of it.  I still have some pessimistic voice telling me they will throw us a couple bones to placate us and over time it will work and Occupy will lose steam.  But, I hope not.  I will be there, as often as I can.  I will buy a camera, to document, and convince my friends and peers to go as well.  I just wish I could shut that little voice up.

Luckily, there's another voice in there telling me that predicting the future is a useless exercise, and my responsibility is to do what I can to help the momentum regardless of pessimistic instincts.

VOICES IN MAH HEAD!  HALP ME DOK!

Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?

I can't do nothing for ya, man.  You've got the brain flukes. 

At least you'll meet new people every day.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 12, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?

Read the threads for yourself, schmuck.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 12, 2011, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Net on October 12, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?

Read the threads for yourself, schmuck.


Seriously, can this kid not read? He wants to have everything spoon-fed to him with personal one-on-one attention.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 12, 2011, 05:25:26 PM
QuoteFor example, this citizen claims to be a college senior working "30+ hours a week making just barely over minimum wage." Which is great and all, but if that's all he's got he's not he shouldn't be paying any income tax.
Fixed that for the blog author.  Income taxes are most likely being taken out of his check, and would have to file correctly to get that money back.  So if he's derping his tax return, he might be paying taxes he doesn't owe.

ETA: Also, if his parents are claiming him as a dependent on their taxes, which is also likely given that he's still in college, that reduce the amount he is able to deduct, and he might end up having to pay because of that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
Quote from: Net on October 12, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?

Read the threads for yourself, schmuck.

Doh.  Sorry.

It was intended for those that didn't already post an opinion, but I realize now that if they were going to, they would have.

So, yeah.  I is 'tarded sometimes.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 12, 2011, 06:32:55 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
Quote from: Net on October 12, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?

Read the threads for yourself, schmuck.

Doh.  Sorry.

It was intended for those that didn't already post an opinion, but I realize now that if they were going to, they would have.

So, yeah.  I is 'tarded sometimes.

It's that beard you have in your driver's license photo. It's syphoning vital nutrients away from your cerebral cortex.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 12, 2011, 06:40:20 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 06:32:55 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
Quote from: Net on October 12, 2011, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Is it popular opinion here that the Occupiers will require teeth and violence in order to succeed?

Read the threads for yourself, schmuck.

Doh.  Sorry.

It was intended for those that didn't already post an opinion, but I realize now that if they were going to, they would have.

So, yeah.  I is 'tarded sometimes.

It's that beard you have in your driver's license photo. It's syphoning vital nutrients away from your cerebral cortex.
:lulz:
and it's grown bigger and fuller since then!  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:43:39 PM
I might have missed it, but I'm still waiting for a coherent message explaining what the OWS people want.

Because right now, it seems like they're having a Howard Beale movement...And while there's nothing wrong with that as a start, it doesn't really get much done.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2011, 06:43:44 PM
Hey, remember JP Morgan's donation to the cops?

Here's something even worse:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/10/financial-giants-put-new-york-city-cops-on-their-payroll/

QuoteIf you're a Wall Street behemoth, there are endless opportunities to privatize profits and socialize losses beyond collecting trillions of dollars in bailouts from taxpayers. One of the ingenious methods that has remained below the public's radar was started by the Rudy Giuliani administration in New York City in 1998. It's called the Paid Detail Unit and it allows the New York Stock Exchange and Wall Street corporations, including those repeatedly charged with crimes, to order up a flank of New York's finest with the ease of dialing the deli for a pastrami on rye.

The corporations pay an average of $37 an hour (no medical, no pension benefit, no overtime pay) for a member of the NYPD, with gun, handcuffs and the ability to arrest. The officer is indemnified by the taxpayer, not the corporation.

New York City gets a 10 percent administrative fee on top of the $37 per hour paid to the police. The City's 2011 budget called for $1,184,000 in Paid Detail fees, meaning private corporations were paying wages of $11.8 million to police participating in the Paid Detail Unit. The program has more than doubled in revenue to the city since 2002.

The taxpayer has paid for the training of the rent-a-cop, his uniform and gun, and will pick up the legal tab for lawsuits stemming from the police personnel following illegal instructions from its corporate master. Lawsuits have already sprung up from the program.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:46:02 PM
Police-for-Pay.

Everything Warren Ellis writes comes true.  It's fucking awful.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 12, 2011, 06:50:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:43:39 PM
I might have missed it, but I'm still waiting for a coherent message explaining what the OWS people want.

Because right now, it seems like they're having a Howard Beale movement...And while there's nothing wrong with that as a start, it doesn't really get much done.

I think it's basically this:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street

QuoteO'Rourke claimed that the Occupy Wall Street people flunked econ, and Grayson said, "No, listen Bill, I have no trouble understanding what they are talking about." O'Rourke asked Grayson, "You passed econ?" Grayson answered, "I was an economist for more than three years, so I think so...Now let me tell you about what they're talking about. They're complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody's held responsible for that. Not a single person's been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. They're upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well."

O'Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, "Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can't find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can't see a doctor when they're sick, that we shouldn't have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn't have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I'll be that spokesman."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:53:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 12, 2011, 06:50:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:43:39 PM
I might have missed it, but I'm still waiting for a coherent message explaining what the OWS people want.

Because right now, it seems like they're having a Howard Beale movement...And while there's nothing wrong with that as a start, it doesn't really get much done.

I think it's basically this:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street

QuoteO'Rourke claimed that the Occupy Wall Street people flunked econ, and Grayson said, "No, listen Bill, I have no trouble understanding what they are talking about." O'Rourke asked Grayson, "You passed econ?" Grayson answered, "I was an economist for more than three years, so I think so...Now let me tell you about what they're talking about. They're complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody's held responsible for that. Not a single person's been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. They're upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well."

O'Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, "Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can't find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can't see a doctor when they're sick, that we shouldn't have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn't have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I'll be that spokesman."


Okay, that's valid.

But they need to concentrate on pushing the message, because I don't think it's getting through.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
The media, of course, are purposefully obsfucating the message.

They're going to have to rely on their blogs, the Occupy Wall Street Journal etc, because the media are not going to give them a fair say.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:56:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 12, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
The media, of course, are purposefully obsfucating the message.

They're going to have to rely on their blogs, the Occupy Wall Street Journal etc, because the media are not going to give them a fair say.

Then they're going to have to find a way around that.

Nothing saying we can't help.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2011, 07:19:36 PM
Yeah, I've been telling people on other sites what it is about, when they've said they don't know.

Also, I think the message may be getting through.  New poll today showed 53% of Republicans in favour of tax rises on the rich.  Poll on Fox News (unscientific, I know) showed 69% approval of OWS.

There was also a girl at the NYC protests, IIRC, holding up a sign declaring she was one of the 1%...and she could afford to pay more, and please could she be taxed more.

Our favourite philosopher-troll, Slavoj Zizek, has also waded in:

QuoteSo what are we doing here? Let me tell you a wonderful, old joke from Communist times. A guy was sent from East Germany to work in Siberia. He knew his mail would be read by censors, so he told his friends: "Let's establish a code. If a letter you get from me is written in blue ink, it is true what I say. If it is written in red ink, it is false." After a month, his friends get the first letter. Everything is in blue. It says, this letter: "Everything is wonderful here. Stores are full of good food. Movie theatres show good films from the west. Apartments are large and luxurious. The only thing you cannot buy is red ink." This is how we live. We have all the freedoms we want. But what we are missing is red ink: the language to articulate our non-freedom. The way we are taught to speak about freedom— war on terror and so on—falsifies freedom. And this is what you are doing here. You are giving all of us red ink...

What do we perceive today as possible? Just follow the media. On the one hand, in technology and sexuality, everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon, you can become immortal by biogenetics, you can have sex with animals or whatever, but look at the field of society and economy. There, almost everything is considered impossible. You want to raise taxes by little bit for the rich. They tell you it's impossible. We lose competitivity. You want more money for health care, they tell you, "Impossible, this means totalitarian state." There's something wrong in the world, where you are promised to be immortal but cannot spend a little bit more for healthcare.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 07:22:23 PM
I think the message is fairly clear if you read alternative media outlets or the websites centered around the protest.

The protest has produced a pair of small-run newspapers which articulate what the thing is about. http://www.breakingcopy.com/occupied-wall-street-journal-pdf - earlier ITT, somebody posted a link to a better text version.

People that only get their news from the MSM are probably very confused. I've been consuming OSW media like crazy and I think maybe 1 out of 4 articles gets it right. It's slowly getting better though.

A really popular framing issue that I'm seeing is that many journalists (mistakenly) expect the protesters to come up with a concrete plan or a policy, like we'd expect of a congressman or other elected official. And really - it's our elected officials job to turn their constituents demands into a working policy. The protests can't be faulted for not producing a bill -- they're not lawyers or politicians.

For example, Sean Hannity had this "protest organizer" on his radio show the other day, and he kept hammering her with policy questions. "How much of the money he earned do you think Steve Jobs should have been allowed to keep?" (great reframe there: presenting the idea of Apple paying taxes as the late Steve Jobs personally being robbed by the government)

The interviewee kept responding to the tune of, "I am not qualified to answer that, I'm not a policy maker." Which Hannity, precious Hannity, thought was bogus and was grounds to dismiss her. His other guest kept saying things like, "See? Liberals think the government has a right to take your money. Liberals hate freedom."


The protesters job is to articulate what they hate about how shit is being run. In that, they are fairly clear (they're about as coherent as 25K+ people can be). They have to generate enough pressure that politicians can't get reelected in 2012 unless they make progress against these issues.

From where I'm sitting, a politician that appears to be addressing the source of outrage stands to gain a lot of political currency. When this outweighs the currency he'll have to spend in order to make unpopular and difficult decisions, we will see real change.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 07:22:23 PM
I think the message is fairly clear if you read alternative media outlets or the websites centered around the protest.

How many people in Flyoverlandia do that?

As Screamin' Howie Dean found out, a web-centered base is nice, but it by itself doesn't make the nut.  You have to grab the general population by the balls and make them listen, or all you're doing is wanking loudly.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2011, 07:40:35 PM
http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

QuoteThe growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

(http://i.imgur.com/pekBc.gif)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 12, 2011, 07:55:17 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 12, 2011, 06:50:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:43:39 PM
I might have missed it, but I'm still waiting for a coherent message explaining what the OWS people want.

Because right now, it seems like they're having a Howard Beale movement...And while there's nothing wrong with that as a start, it doesn't really get much done.

I think it's basically this:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street

QuoteO'Rourke claimed that the Occupy Wall Street people flunked econ, and Grayson said, "No, listen Bill, I have no trouble understanding what they are talking about." O'Rourke asked Grayson, "You passed econ?" Grayson answered, "I was an economist for more than three years, so I think so...Now let me tell you about what they're talking about. They're complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody's held responsible for that. Not a single person's been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. They're upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well."

O'Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, "Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can't find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can't see a doctor when they're sick, that we shouldn't have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn't have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I'll be that spokesman."


Yoinking this for Facebook. Villager joked last night when I told her I was going that maybe I could help them figure out what specifically they are protesting. It annoyed me a little, but I explained that they're not without a specific reason to be there. Cain's mentioning that the media is deliberately fudging it makes sense, and makes me less annoyed at other people. I suppose supporters and conservative plants with irrelevant signs are not really helping things either.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 08:32:51 PM
Memetic Tech 101

Supportive frame: "Anti-greed protest"
Antagonistic frame: "Anti-capitalist protest"

The supportive framing spins the group as cooperating towards a universal human value.
The counter-protest framing spins the group as a fringe critiquing the mainstream from the outside.

Memetics is total wizardry. You can quickly transmute gold back to lead again with a quick wave of the holly wood wand.

And that's why I don't want the movement to get a spokesperson. It makes the protest so much easier to pigeon hole and dismiss. Imagine if Michael Moore were standing in front, owning it. (he was on the ground a few weeks ago, and made it very clear that he was NOT in charge) The dude has a halo of controversy, there are already so many swords pointed towards him, it would be impossible for the movement to take off with Moore as the ring leader.

It's like Guy DeBoard said -- an argument loses its power as soon as it is replied to.

The best arguments are the ones that brook no response.

A movement that can be summarized and captured by a single symbol is easy to negate.



Remember the Situationist slogans

     -- "Beneath the sidewalk--the beach!",

        "My SHADOW is my graffiti"

        "We don't want to be the watchdogs or servants of capitalism."

        "We want structures that serve people, not people serving structures."

        "This concerns everyone."

        "Warning: ambitious careerists may now be disguised as "progressives.""

        "I love you!!! Oh, say it with paving stones!!!"

        "Run, the old world is behind you!"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 12, 2011, 08:43:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 12, 2011, 07:40:35 PM
http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

QuoteThe growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

(http://i.imgur.com/pekBc.gif)

I like the idea of this, but the whole Guy Fawkes motif turns me off.  Why is a man who was a patsy in a foiled plot to overthrow a representative government and establish a Catholic theocracy in its place a folk hero now?

I can't participate, as I already use a credit union instead of a bank.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 08:45:00 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 12, 2011, 08:43:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 12, 2011, 07:40:35 PM
http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

QuoteThe growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

(http://i.imgur.com/pekBc.gif)

I like the idea of this, but the whole Guy Fawkes motif turns me off.  Why is a man who was a patsy in a foiled plot to overthrow a representative government and establish a Catholic theocracy in its place a folk hero now?

I can't participate, as I already use a credit union instead of a bank.

Meh, historical characters always get misrepresented. 

While I view the mask as sort of silly, I don't think the people that wear them want to install Papal rule in the affected nations.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 12, 2011, 08:47:24 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 08:45:00 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 12, 2011, 08:43:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 12, 2011, 07:40:35 PM
http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

QuoteThe growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

(http://i.imgur.com/pekBc.gif)

I like the idea of this, but the whole Guy Fawkes motif turns me off.  Why is a man who was a patsy in a foiled plot to overthrow a representative government and establish a Catholic theocracy in its place a folk hero now?

I can't participate, as I already use a credit union instead of a bank.

Meh, historical characters always get misrepresented. 

While I view the mask as sort of silly, I don't think the people that wear them want to install Papal rule in the affected nations.

Yeah. I just assume they're with Anonymous. Or at least want to be with Anonymous.

I hate it for aesthetic reasons.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 12, 2011, 08:48:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 08:45:00 PM

Meh, historical characters always get misrepresented. 

While I view the mask as sort of silly, I don't think the people that wear them want to install Papal rule in the affected nations.

I'm not convinced that most of the people who wear/use it are aware that it had an significance before V for Vendetta (and the movie version, at that).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 08:49:04 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 08:47:24 PM

Yeah. I just assume they're with Anonymous. Or at least want to be with Anonymous.

I hate it for aesthetic reasons.

Me, too.  It's basically a movement copying a movie, because they couldn't think of anything themselves.

But it got some people MOVING, even if all they did was pester the jackasses that run scientology...And moving is better than sitting.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 12, 2011, 08:55:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 08:49:04 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 08:47:24 PM

Yeah. I just assume they're with Anonymous. Or at least want to be with Anonymous.

I hate it for aesthetic reasons.

Me, too.  It's basically a movement copying a movie, because they couldn't think of anything themselves.

But it got some people MOVING, even if all they did was pester the jackasses that run scientology...And moving is better than sitting.

Oh, I don't fault them for getting up and moving. I just think a bunch of people wearing the same mask from a specific movie based off of a graphic novel is kinda lame.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 09:49:10 PM
According to Cincinnati.com, Covington, Kentucky city commissioner Steve Frank (R) was unusually honest about his disgust for Occupy Wall Street and the similar protests around the country.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/12/kentucky-city-commissioner-i-feel-like-going-taliban-on-occupy-protesters/

"Turn out the lights on the Occupiers, I feel like going Taliban on them!!!" he wrote in a Facebook post.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 12, 2011, 09:59:08 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 09:49:10 PM
According to Cincinnati.com, Covington, Kentucky city commissioner Steve Frank (R) was unusually honest about his disgust for Occupy Wall Street and the similar protests around the country.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/12/kentucky-city-commissioner-i-feel-like-going-taliban-on-occupy-protesters/

"Turn out the lights on the Occupiers, I feel like going Taliban on them!!!" he wrote in a Facebook post.

STAY CLASSY, KENTUCKY!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on October 12, 2011, 10:07:38 PM
:lulz: At least he's honest.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 12, 2011, 11:13:22 PM
At occupy boston. So far ive helped out with the coffee. I might have some.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 12, 2011, 11:23:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 09:59:08 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 09:49:10 PM
According to Cincinnati.com, Covington, Kentucky city commissioner Steve Frank (R) was unusually honest about his disgust for Occupy Wall Street and the similar protests around the country.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/12/kentucky-city-commissioner-i-feel-like-going-taliban-on-occupy-protesters/

"Turn out the lights on the Occupiers, I feel like going Taliban on them!!!" he wrote in a Facebook post.

STAY CLASSY, KENTUCKY!

Our Senators are Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul. If you're hoping to find class (or brains, or spine) among Kentucky's elected officials, you're just asking for disappointment.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 11:13:22 PM
At occupy boston. So far ive helped out with the coffee. I might have some.
*internet high five*

I'm on the library committee in Portland. We had a near-catastrophic flood yesterday, but engineering came over and fixed up our tarp system, then someone came in with a huge bookshelf, which is exactly what we needed. The space has quickly evolved from just a "leave a book, borrow a book" system to a place where people can come in and have the kinds of open discussions about what's going on in the world that haven't been happening in society at large the past few decades. It's kind of badass and heartwarming to see happen.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 13, 2011, 02:31:02 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 11:13:22 PM
At occupy boston. So far ive helped out with the coffee. I might have some.
*internet high five*

I'm on the library committee in Portland. We had a near-catastrophic flood yesterday, but engineering came over and fixed up our tarp system, then someone came in with a huge bookshelf, which is exactly what we needed. The space has quickly evolved from just a "leave a book, borrow a book" system to a place where people can come in and have the kinds of open discussions about what's going on in the world that haven't been happening in society at large the past few decades. It's kind of badass and heartwarming to see happen.

:cheers:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on October 13, 2011, 04:08:14 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 11:13:22 PM
At occupy boston. So far ive helped out with the coffee. I might have some.
*internet high five*

I'm on the library committee in Portland. We had a near-catastrophic flood yesterday, but engineering came over and fixed up our tarp system, then someone came in with a huge bookshelf, which is exactly what we needed. The space has quickly evolved from just a "leave a book, borrow a book" system to a place where people can come in and have the kinds of open discussions about what's going on in the world that haven't been happening in society at large the past few decades. It's kind of badass and heartwarming to see happen.

:mittens:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 05:36:30 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 12, 2011, 11:13:22 PM
At occupy boston. So far ive helped out with the coffee. I might have some.
*internet high five*

I'm on the library committee in Portland. We had a near-catastrophic flood yesterday, but engineering came over and fixed up our tarp system, then someone came in with a huge bookshelf, which is exactly what we needed. The space has quickly evolved from just a "leave a book, borrow a book" system to a place where people can come in and have the kinds of open discussions about what's going on in the world that haven't been happening in society at large the past few decades. It's kind of badass and heartwarming to see happen.

Do you know my friend Lindsay?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:30:51 AM
The only Lindsay I've met was the one who put forth the flag proposal at GA on the 9th. I know there's people on the library committee I haven't met; I'm mostly there later in the day.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:45:02 AM
Oh yeah, other random tidbit: On Tuesday, I gave a resigned "Hail Eris" during our emergency morale pow-wow while Boston was being raided and someone in the crowd (didn't see who) shouted back "Hail Discordia!"  :)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 13, 2011, 07:50:03 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:45:02 AM
Oh yeah, other random tidbit: On Tuesday, I gave a resigned "Hail Eris" during our emergency morale pow-wow while Boston was being raided and someone in the crowd (didn't see who) shouted back "Hail Discordia!"  :)

:D

Twid,
Eris representing Beantown for me
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2011, 10:30:23 AM
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-occupy-wall-street-protesters-20111012

Fuck yeah, Taibbi has waded in.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on October 13, 2011, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:45:02 AM
Oh yeah, other random tidbit: On Tuesday, I gave a resigned "Hail Eris" during our emergency morale pow-wow while Boston was being raided and someone in the crowd (didn't see who) shouted back "Hail Discordia!"  :)

nice. I need to ask around to see whose been. Probably do an informal count of the pdx folks @ EsoZone.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 10:30:23 AM
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-occupy-wall-street-protesters-20111012

Fuck yeah, Taibbi has waded in.

THERE is somebody who could play the spokesman role.

Last night I was wondering what Taibbi thought of all this, and I bumped into an essay he wrote in 2004, called March to Irrelevance, which was about an anti-bush protest in NYC.

http://www.43rdstateblues.com/?q=node/516

At first, I thought I was reading about the current protests, so the first two paragraphs really bewildered me:

QuoteHey, you assholes: The '60s are over!

I'm not talking about your white-guy fros, mutton-chops and beads. I'm not talking about your Che t-shirts or that wan, concerned, young Joanie Baez look on the faces of half of your women. I'm not even talking about skinny young potheads carrying wood puppets and joyously dancing in druid circles during a march to protest a bloody war.

I'm not harping on any of that. I could, but I won't. Because the protests of the last week in New York were more than a silly, off-key exercise in irrelevant chest-puffing. It was a colossal waste of political energy by a group of people with no sense of history, mission or tactics, a group of people so atomized and inured to its own powerlessness that it no longer even considers seeking anything beyond a fleeting helping of that worthless and disgusting media currency known as play.



But BACK TO THE PRESENT.... the Taibbi article is excellent.  He has some great bullet points. I wonder what the effect would be if they imposed a .1% tax on all stock trades and a .01% tax on derivatives. I am sure the financial bloc would cry bloody murder. But how much would it actually depress trade?

I also like the memetic magic he works by branding "Too Big to Fail" financial companies as "Systemically Dangerous Institutions". That has the potential to catch.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 04:05:42 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:30:51 AM
The only Lindsay I've met was the one who put forth the flag proposal at GA on the 9th. I know there's people on the library committee I haven't met; I'm mostly there later in the day.

I wasn't there, but was she a skinny chick with big blue eyes? Kind of hoarse from being sick? That's her.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 04:07:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 10:30:23 AM
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-occupy-wall-street-protesters-20111012

Fuck yeah, Taibbi has waded in.

HELL FUCKING  YES.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 13, 2011, 04:13:08 PM
Great response to the "53%" people:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy)

Quote
I understand your pride in what you've accomplished, but I want to ask you something.

Do you really want the bar set this high?  Do you really want to live in a society where just getting by requires a person to hold down two jobs and work 60 to 70 hours a week?  Is that your idea of the American Dream?

Do you really want to spend the rest of your life working two jobs and 60 to 70 hours a week?  Do you think you can?  Because, let me tell you, kid, that's not going to be as easy when you're 50 as it was when you were 20.

And what happens if you get sick?  You say you don't have health insurance, but since you're a veteran I assume you have some government-provided health care through the VA system.  I know my father, a Vietnam-era veteran of the Air Force, still gets most of his medical needs met through the VA, but I don't know what your situation is.  But even if you have access to health care, it doesn't mean disease or injury might not interfere with your ability to put in those 60- to 70-hour work weeks.

Do you plan to get married, have kids?  Do you think your wife is going to be happy with you working those long hours year after year without a vacation?  Is it going to be fair to her?  Is it going to be fair to your kids?  Is it going to be fair to you?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2011, 04:15:46 PM
If that was addressed to Erik son of Erik, it misses the point that he is a complete asshole (http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/10/11/little-lee-fang-whines-about-me-stealing-the-hippies-thunder-iamthe53/):

Quote[A critic] wants you to fixate on the new house and ignore the old house. My wife and I bought it for $110,000.00 in March of 2001. It is appraised, for taxes, at $119,000.00. We're having a tough time selling it. My student loans payments are more each month than the mortgage. But with the new house? It was originally for sale for over $600,000.00 and we benefited from the misery of others in the market downturn. It was tasty misery at that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 13, 2011, 04:20:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 04:15:46 PM
If that was addressed to Erik son of Erik, it misses the point that he is a complete asshole (http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/10/11/little-lee-fang-whines-about-me-stealing-the-hippies-thunder-iamthe53/):

Quote[A critic] wants you to fixate on the new house and ignore the old house. My wife and I bought it for $110,000.00 in March of 2001. It is appraised, for taxes, at $119,000.00. We're having a tough time selling it. My student loans payments are more each month than the mortgage. But with the new house? It was originally for sale for over $600,000.00 and we benefited from the misery of others in the market downturn. It was tasty misery at that.

This was addressed specifically to the kid at the top of the page who'd posted his pic/support letter to the 53%er website.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2011, 04:21:46 PM
Ah, fair enough.

Still, my point stands - Erikson is an asshole.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 13, 2011, 04:25:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 04:21:46 PM
Ah, fair enough.

Still, my point stands - Erikson is an asshole.

Just read the post you linked. He is a ginormous asshole.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 04:35:03 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 13, 2011, 04:13:08 PM
Great response to the "53%" people:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy)

I like this letter a lot.

I like how it addresses the divide between the left and right. The writer acknowledges that stuff like Universal Healthcare is a point of contention, the core idea of the protest is something that both the left and right wing can support. It depicts an American dream that both sides can agree on.

QuoteAnyway, do you understand what I'm trying to say?  We can have a reasonable standard for what level of work qualifies you for the American Dream, and work to build a society that realizes that dream, or we can chew each other to the bone in a nightmare of merciless competition and mutual contempt.

I'm a liberal, so I probably dream bigger than you.  For instance, I want everybody to have healthcare.  I want lazy people to have healthcare.  I want stupid people to have healthcare.  I want drug addicts to have healthcare.  I want bums who refuse to work even when given the opportunity to have healthcare.  I'm willing to pay for that with my taxes, because I want to live in a society where it doesn't matter how much of a loser you are, if you need medical care you can get it.  And not just by crowding up an emergency room that should be dedicated exclusively to helping people in emergencies.

You probably don't agree with that, and that's fine.  That's an expansion of the American Dream, and would involve new commitments we haven't made before.   But the commitment we've made to the working class since the 1940s is something that we should both support and be willing to fight for, whether we are liberal or conservative.  We should both be willing to fight for the American Dream.  And we should agree that anybody trying to steal that dream from us is to be resisted, not defended.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
You know, it's just terrible how hard work is no longer rewarded (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/12/hard-times-on-wall-street/) in America:

QuoteOptions Group's Karp said he met last month over tea at the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York with a trader who made $500,000 last year at one of the six largest U.S. banks.

The trader, a 27-year-old Ivy League graduate, complained that he has worked harder this year and will be paid less. The headhunter told him to stay put and collect his bonus.

"This is very demoralizing to people," Karp said. "Especially young guys who have gone to college and wanted to come onto the Street, having dreams of becoming millionaires."

How utterly awful!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 06:16:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
You know, it's just terrible how hard work is no longer rewarded (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/12/hard-times-on-wall-street/) in America:

QuoteOptions Group's Karp said he met last month over tea at the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York with a trader who made $500,000 last year at one of the six largest U.S. banks.

The trader, a 27-year-old Ivy League graduate, complained that he has worked harder this year and will be paid less. The headhunter told him to stay put and collect his bonus.

"This is very demoralizing to people," Karp said. "Especially young guys who have gone to college and wanted to come onto the Street, having dreams of becoming millionaires."

How utterly awful!

Poor poor baby!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 13, 2011, 06:17:53 PM
Damned if I don't feel sorry for him. Asshole.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:03:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 04:05:42 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:30:51 AM
The only Lindsay I've met was the one who put forth the flag proposal at GA on the 9th. I know there's people on the library committee I haven't met; I'm mostly there later in the day.

I wasn't there, but was she a skinny chick with big blue eyes? Kind of hoarse from being sick? That's her.

It very well could have been; she was hoarse as hell. Kept talking about the need for a "love revolution?"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 07:31:47 PM
Yesterday, I said

Quote from: Cramulus on October 12, 2011, 07:22:23 PM
A really popular framing issue that I'm seeing is that many journalists (mistakenly) expect the protesters to come up with a concrete plan or a policy, like we'd expect of a congressman or other elected official. And really - it's our elected officials job to turn their constituents demands into a working policy. The protests can't be faulted for not producing a bill -- they're not lawyers or politicians.

more on that note...

        From Douglas Rushkoff (http://www.rushkoff.com/blog/2011/10/5/think-occupy-wall-st-is-a-phase-you-dont-get-it.html)

Anyone who says he has no idea what these folks are protesting is not being truthful. Whether we agree with them or not, we all know what they are upset about, and we all know that there are investment bankers working on Wall Street getting richer while things for most of the rest of us are getting tougher. What upsets banking's defenders and politicians alike is the refusal of this movement to state its terms or set its goals in the traditional language of campaigns.

That's because, unlike a political campaign designed to get some person in office and then close up shop (as in the election of Obama), this is not a movement with a traditional narrative arc. As the product of the decentralized networked-era culture, it is less about victory than sustainability. It is not about one-pointedness, but inclusion and groping toward consensus. It is not like a book; it is like the Internet.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:03:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 04:05:42 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 13, 2011, 07:30:51 AM
The only Lindsay I've met was the one who put forth the flag proposal at GA on the 9th. I know there's people on the library committee I haven't met; I'm mostly there later in the day.

I wasn't there, but was she a skinny chick with big blue eyes? Kind of hoarse from being sick? That's her.

It very well could have been; she was hoarse as hell. Kept talking about the need for a "love revolution?"

Yeah, I'm sure that's her.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:10:33 PM
Eight arrests this morning... justified ones. http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/police-arrest-occupy-portland-demonstrators/36813a31ffc94f228e62566e9ddeb66e
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2011, 09:30:26 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.

Friday night is "Family Camp/sleepover night" at OWS NYC.

I got $5 that says we're going to see footage of a cop tasering and/or spaying mace in the face of a kid within the next 48 hours.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.

have you read anything about this? I've been looking around, trying to figure out what the story is...

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/13/protesters_refuse_to_leave_zuccotti.php

is this what they're talking about? Mainly a sanitation pass?



A cabalmate who was at the protest said that "The bottom line is that Bloomberg or the park owners really could pull the plug on this at any time. It's not a public space and the legal right to protest there is questionable."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 13, 2011, 10:16:25 PM
Maybe its time to march?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 14, 2011, 01:58:50 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.

have you read anything about this? I've been looking around, trying to figure out what the story is...

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/13/protesters_refuse_to_leave_zuccotti.php

is this what they're talking about? Mainly a sanitation pass?



A cabalmate who was at the protest said that "The bottom line is that Bloomberg or the park owners really could pull the plug on this at any time. It's not a public space and the legal right to protest there is questionable."


PURE SPECULATION AHEAD:
Does anyone know how "privately owned" the park really is? Because it's located in one of the highest-rent areas in one of the highest-rent cities in the world and it seems very out of character to me for a company to not only let that land sit there not turning a profit, but to spend money on upkeep. Anybody know if there's a huge taxpayer-funded "green space subsidy" or something similar keeping the park from being turned into a parking garage?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 14, 2011, 02:14:30 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 14, 2011, 01:58:50 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.

have you read anything about this? I've been looking around, trying to figure out what the story is...

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/13/protesters_refuse_to_leave_zuccotti.php

is this what they're talking about? Mainly a sanitation pass?



A cabalmate who was at the protest said that "The bottom line is that Bloomberg or the park owners really could pull the plug on this at any time. It's not a public space and the legal right to protest there is questionable."


PURE SPECULATION AHEAD:
Does anyone know how "privately owned" the park really is? Because it's located in one of the highest-rent areas in one of the highest-rent cities in the world and it seems very out of character to me for a company to not only let that land sit there not turning a profit, but to spend money on upkeep. Anybody know if there's a huge taxpayer-funded "green space subsidy" or something similar keeping the park from being turned into a parking garage?

Because there's never been any people with money willing to cooperatively purchase some land to prevent it from being developed, so it can be used by everyone?

what?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 14, 2011, 02:16:04 AM
Also a possibility, but given the property values it seems less likely to me.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 14, 2011, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 14, 2011, 02:16:04 AM
Also a possibility, but given the property values it seems less likely to me.

It's fucking New York City.  The people who own property there pay some of the highest prices on the planet.  What the fuck makes you think they wouldn't be interested and be willing to pay to  have some parks in their concrete prison?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 14, 2011, 02:23:57 AM
Looks like someone dropped a used tampon in Pickle's punch. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on October 14, 2011, 02:28:33 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 14, 2011, 02:23:57 AM
Looks like someone dropped a used tampon in Pickle's punch. 

Hey Freeky.

Naaaa..  Burbon and thoughts make me cuss a bit more than normal is all.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 14, 2011, 02:29:56 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on October 14, 2011, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 14, 2011, 02:16:04 AM
Also a possibility, but given the property values it seems less likely to me.

It's fucking New York City.  The people who own property there pay some of the highest prices on the planet.  What the fuck makes you think they wouldn't be interested and be willing to pay to  have some parks in their concrete prison?



Calm down and take some deep breaths.

I said it SEEMS unlikely TO ME. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong and the park is owned by a collective of wall street traders who love tress and flowers and chirping birds and basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle there thumbs and toes. Maybe they occasionally break into song and dance. I don't know.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 14, 2011, 03:50:19 AM
Thats an awesome image
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2011, 04:01:52 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 09:30:26 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.

Friday night is "Family Camp/sleepover night" at OWS NYC.

I got $5 that says we're going to see footage of a cop tasering and/or spaying mace in the face of a kid within the next 48 hours.

I think, sir, that your money is safe.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2011, 04:04:56 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 13, 2011, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 13, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
I've heard that NY and Seattle have told their Occupy groups that they have to get out by Saturday.

I don't see this going over very well.

have you read anything about this? I've been looking around, trying to figure out what the story is...

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/13/protesters_refuse_to_leave_zuccotti.php

is this what they're talking about? Mainly a sanitation pass?



A cabalmate who was at the protest said that "The bottom line is that Bloomberg or the park owners really could pull the plug on this at any time. It's not a public space and the legal right to protest there is questionable."

Yes, and they've been told not to bring tarps or sleeping bags back to the square afterwards.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on October 14, 2011, 04:40:32 AM
Even if it's a public park...

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_about/rules_and_regulations/rr_1-04.html

Quotep.  Unlawful camping
No person shall engage in camping, or erect or maintain a tent, shelter, or camp in any park without a permit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2011, 04:50:54 AM
Quote from: Luna on October 14, 2011, 04:40:32 AM
Even if it's a public park...

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_about/rules_and_regulations/rr_1-04.html

Quotep.  Unlawful camping
No person shall engage in camping, or erect or maintain a tent, shelter, or camp in any park without a permit.

It's generally not legal anywhere. That's part of the point.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 14, 2011, 04:53:44 AM
Yeah, the general sense at Occupy Portland is that we don't give a damn whether it's legal or not. We're not out to follow the law, we're out to change it.

(That said, occupying Main St. was pointless and stupid and I'm glad the way is clear.)

At this juncture, having the police break up the camps may be just what we need to get this movement really moving. The conversations have been happening. People are paying attention. It's probably time for a little push and push back.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2011, 04:59:49 AM
Technically, loitering isn't legal either on most city sidewalks, but peaceful protest is legal. The question of when protesting becomes "camping" is not necessarily very cut and dried.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 05:35:56 AM
from
http://occupywallst.org/article/emergency-call-action-prevent-forcible-closure-occ/

NEED MASS TURN-OUT, SHOW UP NO LATER THAN 6 A.M.

This is an emergency situation. Please take a minute to read this, and please take action and spread the word far and wide.


Occupy Wall Street is gaining momentum, with occupation actions now happening in cities across the world.

But last night Mayor Bloomberg and the NYPD notified Occupy Wall Street participants about plans to "clean the park"—the site of the Wall Street protests—tomorrow starting at 7am. "Cleaning" was used as a pretext to shut down "Bloombergville" a few months back, and to shut down peaceful occupations elsewhere.

Bloomberg says that the park will be open for public usage following the cleaning, but with a notable caveat: Occupy Wall Street participants must follow the "rules".

NYPD Police Commissioner Ray Kelly has said that they will move in to clear us and we will not be allowed to take sleeping bags, tarps, personal items or gear back into the park.

This is it—this is their attempt to shut down #OWS for good.
PLEASE TAKE ACTION

1) Call 311 (or +1 (212) NEW-YORK if you're out of town) and tell Bloomberg to support our right to assemble and to not interfere with #OWS.

2) Come to #OWS TONIGHT AT MIDNIGHT to defend the occupation from eviction.


For those of you who plan to help us hold our ground—which we hope will be all of you—make sure you understand the possible consequences. Be prepared to not get much sleep. Be prepared for possible arrest. Make sure your items are together and ready to go (or already out of the park.) We are pursuing all possible strategies; this is a message of solidarity.

Click here to learn nonviolent tactics for holding ground. (http://occupywallst.org/article/how-hold-your-ground/)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 05:57:41 AM
From the OSW forums...



PROPOSED LIST OF DEMANDS (please help edit/add so this can be submitted for consideration to those maintaining the official list)

(Please click on this link if you haven't yet read the introduction called "OUR TURN": https://occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn/ . Feel free to share this link with anyone you like).

TACTICS FOR "DEMANDS FOR CONGRESS"

We should make the demands below very publicly at a press conference a few days after arriving in DC. When doing so, we should give a clear deadline of 3 days for a firm written commitment with signatures from at least 60% of members of House and 60% of the members of the Senate to pass these bills by the end of the year. If this commitment on the full slate of demands is not met by midnight on the 3rd day (which it won't be) we should be prepared to non-violently block access to all or part of the Capitol complex the next morning by traditional proven non-violent tactics. The purpose is to bring the leaders of the House and Senate to the negotiating table.

NOTE: There are always entrances because there is always a point where people who work there have to leave the public street and enter secure space. We should focus our non-violent direct action and civil disobedience on those entrances no matter where they move them because these are, by definition, always accessible.

LIST OF PROPOSED "DEMANDS FOR CONGRESS"

CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act#Repeal .

USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.

CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.

CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.

CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.

CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.

CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.

ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.

NOTE 1: This is from Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "Letter from the Birmingham Jail":

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."

"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."

Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.

NOTE 2: Here's a short video from BBC to inspire you. It gets pretty extraordinary about halfway through: http://youtu.be/lqN3amj6AcE

NOTE 3: If you haven't seen these 3 award winning documentaries -- INSIDE JOB, THE CORPORATION, and WHY WE FIGHT -- I highly recommend them.

NOTE 4: There needs to be a very well researched and concise addendum that contains a list of the top 50 corporate crimes / harmful actions during the past 15 years. This ought to really blow people away and will help increase support both on the ground in DC and in living rooms across America as the story unfolds. We can't assume everyone knows why these demands are necessary. We must demonstrate.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 02:14:42 PM
Occupy Wall St did NOT get evicted last night!


Quote from: http://www.occupywallst.org/article/ows-victory-people-have-prevailed-gear-global-day-/OCCUPY WALL STREET: PEOPLE POWER TRIUMPHS OVER WALL STREET'S BID TO END THE PROTESTS
MAYOR BLOOMBERG AND BROOKFIELD INC BACK DOWN ON EVICTION
WORLD PREPARES FOR DAY OF ACTION SATURDAY OCTOBER 15 IN 950+ CITIES IN 82 COUNTRIES


NEW YORK, NY -- Over 3,000 people gathered at Liberty Plaza in the pre-dawn hours this morning to defend the peaceful Occupation near Wall Street. The crowd cheered at the news that multinational real estate firm Brookfield Properties will postpone its so-called "cleanup" of the park and that Mayor Bloomberg has told the NYPD to stand down on orders to remove protesters. On the eve of the October 15 global day of action against Wall Street greed, this development has emboldened the movement and sent a clear message that the power of the people has prevailed against Wall Street.

"We are winning and Wall Street is afraid," said Kira Moyer-Sims, a protester from Portland, Oregon. "This movement is gaining momentum and is too big to fail."


:amurrica:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 14, 2011, 02:36:12 PM
How long until we see the first case of Dysentery, do you think?


Ok, that was callous, and doesn't address the main theme.  However, you gotta admit that the park has got to reek by now, yeah?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2011, 03:47:31 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/10/14/us/AP-US-Wall-Street-Protest.html?hp

According to the AP, Bloomberg's girlfriend is on the board of directors of Brookfield Properties, the private company that owns Zucotti Park.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2011, 03:50:02 PM
Also, people seem very confused on the 53% blog

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/10/13/the-we-are-the-53-tumblr-is-heartbreaking/

QuoteAfter this young woman's father was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, he was told by the doctor to take it easy since he's a manual laborer. Yet he went back to work full-time, working 12 hours a day, six days a week. She writes, "The cancer still grows. That is the American dream."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 14, 2011, 04:02:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 14, 2011, 03:50:02 PM
Also, people seem very confused on the 53% blog

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/10/13/the-we-are-the-53-tumblr-is-heartbreaking/

QuoteAfter this young woman's father was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, he was told by the doctor to take it easy since he's a manual laborer. Yet he went back to work full-time, working 12 hours a day, six days a week. She writes, "The cancer still grows. That is the American dream."

Wait, what?  The American Dream is to work 72 hours a week while you are dying from cancer? :?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2011, 04:04:08 PM
That's my American dream!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 14, 2011, 04:08:08 PM
 :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 04:19:13 PM
Oh, yeah.

I've heard this joke before.

Hubert Humphrey and Richard Daley Sr perfected it. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 14, 2011, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 04:19:13 PM
Oh, yeah.

I've heard this joke before.

Hubert Humphrey and Richard Daley Sr perfected it. 

How so?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 14, 2011, 04:46:31 PM
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CH4kyNjqI50/TimOdVLmKKI/AAAAAAAAAFs/nI2vT-hChjw/w561-h177-n-k/No%2BFood%2BStamps.JPG)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 14, 2011, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 04:19:13 PM
Oh, yeah.

I've heard this joke before.

Hubert Humphrey and Richard Daley Sr perfected it. 

How so?

By beating the living blue Jesus out of thousands of hippies who also thought it would be a good idea to get involved in the business of The People, back in 1968.

:digtbk:  <---  Humphrey

:hammer:  <--- Daley
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 14, 2011, 04:55:44 PM
 :sad:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 06:12:10 PM
SOME BRAVE LADS

(http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/wall_street_protest6.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 14, 2011, 06:13:03 PM
What the fuck?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 14, 2011, 06:13:03 PM
What the fuck?

The cop is running over the guy's right leg, for no apparent reason...And being careful to do it RIGHT, if you notice the look of concentration on his face.  The spectators are mildly interested, and the photographers are getting some high-quality agony & anguish shots for the Nightly News.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
I thought that was a look of mild constipation, on the copper's face.

Also, how lazy do you have to be to not even get off a bike to beat the shit out of someone?  That cop, definitely a member of the 47%.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2011, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 02:14:42 PM
Occupy Wall St did NOT get evicted last night!


Quote from: http://www.occupywallst.org/article/ows-victory-people-have-prevailed-gear-global-day-/OCCUPY WALL STREET: PEOPLE POWER TRIUMPHS OVER WALL STREET'S BID TO END THE PROTESTS
MAYOR BLOOMBERG AND BROOKFIELD INC BACK DOWN ON EVICTION
WORLD PREPARES FOR DAY OF ACTION SATURDAY OCTOBER 15 IN 950+ CITIES IN 82 COUNTRIES


NEW YORK, NY -- Over 3,000 people gathered at Liberty Plaza in the pre-dawn hours this morning to defend the peaceful Occupation near Wall Street. The crowd cheered at the news that multinational real estate firm Brookfield Properties will postpone its so-called "cleanup" of the park and that Mayor Bloomberg has told the NYPD to stand down on orders to remove protesters. On the eve of the October 15 global day of action against Wall Street greed, this development has emboldened the movement and sent a clear message that the power of the people has prevailed against Wall Street.

"We are winning and Wall Street is afraid," said Kira Moyer-Sims, a protester from Portland, Oregon. "This movement is gaining momentum and is too big to fail."


:amurrica:

Yay!

Also, they quoted my friend's little girl, that's AWESOME!!!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2011, 06:26:29 PM
Also, Kira, "Too big to fail"? I love you!  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
"Seven Snappy Comebacks for Those Lame Anti-"Occupy" Talking Points"

http://www.nationofchange.org/seven-snappy-comebacks-those-lame-anti-occupy-talking-points-1318344312

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 14, 2011, 09:05:08 PM
8. "They'll come for your cat's penis next."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 09:07:32 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
"Seven Snappy Comebacks for Those Lame Anti-"Occupy" Talking Points"

http://www.nationofchange.org/seven-snappy-comebacks-those-lame-anti-occupy-talking-points-1318344312



Oddly enough, my browser will only load the ads.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 14, 2011, 09:08:52 PM
that bites! does print view or plain text view work?

http://www.nationofchange.org/print/2633
http://www.nationofchange.org/reader/2633

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 14, 2011, 09:11:30 PM
Fucking awesome.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 12:38:27 AM
Occupy Milwaukee tomorrow!   I'm not terribly excited, but I suppose the crowd atmosphere will take care of that for me.

I wonder if I'll run into anyone I know.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 01:33:27 AM
Might want to snip the beard trix. Its just another thing for the cops to grab.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 01:44:10 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 15, 2011, 01:33:27 AM
Might want to snip the beard trix. Its just another thing for the cops to grab.

The pic in my avatar is ancient.  The Beard has grown far more epic now, and full, and can easily destroy any scissors that threaten it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 02:53:10 AM
Post pics. Lets see how epic this facial hair is.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 03:06:56 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 15, 2011, 02:53:10 AM
Post pics. Lets see how epic this facial hair is.

Taken with a cheap $25 walmart camera.  All I got.  Note, the hair has gotten a lot longer too.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8306/pict0008wb.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4352/pict0009iw.jpg
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 15, 2011, 03:28:36 AM
Oh good, you look like a crazy homeless person!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 04:20:26 AM
Or Fidel Castro
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 04:38:43 AM
 :lulz:

THATS WHAT THE 1% IS DOING TO US!!!  :argh!:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 04:48:20 AM
Quote from: trix on October 15, 2011, 04:38:43 AM
:lulz:

THATS WHAT THE 1% IS DOING TO US!!!  :argh!:

Giving us beards? I didn't know they were in that business.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 04:54:23 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 15, 2011, 04:48:20 AM
Quote from: trix on October 15, 2011, 04:38:43 AM
:lulz:

THATS WHAT THE 1% IS DOING TO US!!!  :argh!:

Giving us beards? I didn't know they were in that business.
Turning us all into homeless Fidel Castro's!

And by the way, the hat is corduroy, so it's a little less Fidel Castro in person then on CrappyCam.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 05:16:17 AM
Gotcha.

It's going in my WOMP folder now, by the way.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 15, 2011, 08:23:03 AM
Quote from: trix on October 15, 2011, 03:06:56 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 15, 2011, 02:53:10 AM
Post pics. Lets see how epic this facial hair is.

Taken with a cheap $25 walmart camera.  All I got.  Note, the hair has gotten a lot longer too.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8306/pict0008wb.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4352/pict0009iw.jpg

That's an impressive amount of facial hair, but it won't be epic until you sculpt, style or model it a bit. Now it just looks like you let it grow out?

Do you even comb it? Get a fine-toothed comb, it'll get stuck, but persist.

And if you got $10-20, find a real good barber to cut it into an actually EPIC shape.

IPTUOUS can give you even better advice, for his facial hair is widely known for its epiciticity, his wife permitting.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 15, 2011, 01:52:24 PM
Apparently they're doing Occupy in Amsterdam now.

I'm not really sure what I should be protesting about, there.

The only thing I can imagine is "in support for you guys in the USA" ?

Not that I'm going to Amsterdam, but maybe next week it'll be here, I dunno.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 15, 2011, 02:59:54 PM
How they made the worldwide Occupy river of news (http://occupyweb.org/news.html):

http://wesmckinney.com/blog/?p=215
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2011, 03:32:47 PM
Some of your banks were involved in high-risk trading with Iceland, and were named in an investigation into Goldman Sachs to do with CDO trading.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 15, 2011, 05:16:17 AM
Gotcha.

It's going in my WOMP folder now, by the way.

haha WOMP away.  But if I get WOMP'd, expect retaliation in kind!  :piss:

ETA:  You guys want video on my CrappyCam of protesting stuffs?  Wondering if it'd be worth the effort, tons of people have cams already.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2011, 06:31:37 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/4rSVI.jpg)

All the Occupy protests in Europe.

Rome's protest sounds damn intense...probably because Berlusconi just won a vote of confidence and people are pissed.  London seems pretty peaceful so far...but I've only got the BBC's word for that, and I'm too far away to hear any screaming.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 06:55:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2011, 06:31:37 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/4rSVI.jpg)

All the Occupy protests in Europe.

Rome's protest sounds damn intense...probably because Berlusconi just won a vote of confidence and people are pissed.  London seems pretty peaceful so far...but I've only got the BBC's word for that, and I'm too far away to hear any screaming.

Holy fuck!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2011, 06:59:15 PM
We're pretty pissed off.

Most of Europe started in on the austerity thing in 2009.  You guys have only really had it this year.

Also, Commies, Anarchists, Trade Unionists and bearded Lefties, oh my!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 15, 2011, 07:05:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2011, 06:59:15 PM
We're pretty pissed off.

Most of Europe started in on the austerity thing in 2009.  You guys have only really had it this year.

Also, Commies, Anarchists, Trade Unionists and bearded Lefties, oh my!

Oh that last bit I figured. We have the perception that France is constantly protesting one thing or another (sometimes for things that boggles the average American mind). I think it's just the concentration of all those red circles. Logically I know Europe is a fairly small place with a high population density. It just kinda shocked me there a little so see it like that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2011, 07:11:40 PM
The most interesting clusters, to me, are the ones in Spain.  Of course, Spain does have a 20% unemployment rate, so it's pretty understandable...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 15, 2011, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2011, 06:31:37 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/4rSVI.jpg)

All the Occupy protests in Europe.

Rome's protest sounds damn intense...probably because Berlusconi just won a vote of confidence and people are pissed.  London seems pretty peaceful so far...but I've only got the BBC's word for that, and I'm too far away to hear any screaming.

Wow that's impressive.

I just saw the protest in Amsterdam on the news here, that whole protest kinda took me kind of by surprise, apparently I'm out of the loop I had no idea they were planning this ... Better pay some more attention to my own country :) Though I hadn't heard my friends about it either.

What also took me by surprise was the quality of the reporting about it (on the Dutch public broadcasting news, no less!), as well as the quality of the people articulating what they were protesting against: banks, money buying politics, corruption.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Remington on October 15, 2011, 09:37:03 PM
So, I read this thread 2 hours ago, then went out to take my GF downtown to get banking done. We park, go down to the bank, and are about to go in when we hear... chanting?

Occupy Edmonton marched right past us!

There was about 500 people, signs and everything. Lots of people were watching on the sidelines, and there was a light police presence. The protestors looked like normal people, too. No crazy homeless types. It was awesome. After I got back I looked up their site, the protests are focused more on supporting the US occupations and forcing anti-oilsands legislation (good luck) than anything else. The corruption in Canada isn't as bad as the States yet, so protests are lighter.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/10/13/occupy-edmonton-protest-set-for-saturday (http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/10/13/occupy-edmonton-protest-set-for-saturday)
http://occupyedmonton.org/ (http://occupyedmonton.org/)

Edit:
Average Canadian income: $43,000
Average Canadian CEO income: $6,600,000
Difference: 153x

Average US income: $33,190
Average US CEO income: (estimates vary, but this seems to be an average) $9,000,000
Difference: 271x

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2011, 09:45:19 PM
There seems to be some evidence that the 53%er blog is using fake images

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/15/1026620/-We-Are-the-53-is-Using-Fake-Images

Yes, the Great Orange Satan, unfortunately, but the criticisms of the pic seem quite legit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Hoser McRhizzy on October 15, 2011, 11:25:42 PM
I fucking love Regina!

(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/8464/weworkedhard.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/weworkedhard.png/)


I know this thread is more about commentary, but I had to pay tribute to this titan somewhere.  He makes my spaz gland happy.

and just one more...  this one from Toronto: http://instagr.am/p/QO75K/

Back on topic - Interesting about the fake photo.  Has anyone looked into who's running the site? (please let it be Tom, the fake syrian lesbian!)  I didn't know about this 53% thingy and just checked out their blog briefly.  What a waste of space.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2011, 11:30:06 PM
The guys running it are a professional Republican blogger, CNN pundit and radio show host (all one guy) and a Republican think tank analyst, noted for his Iraqi concentration camp fantasies on the internet (under the name of Tacitus).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 15, 2011, 11:41:17 PM
Well Occupy Milwaukee is okay.  It does seem to be mostly the hippy-ish types though.  I fit right in!  Unfortunately.

There was also almost a 1:1 police to protester ratio.  They had that shit locked DOWN.  Police were pretty friendly though, waving as we walked by, calmly conversing with random protesters, interspersed within the crowds as if they were protesting with us, though without joining the chants or holding signs.

Milwaukee police are generally a good bunch though.  Not like Waukesha, New Berlin, or Greenfield police.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Hoser McRhizzy on October 16, 2011, 12:29:59 AM
Shit.  I thought Erik Erikson was a joke name.  Whole blog looked fake.   But it makes sense knowing it comes from a thinktank man type.

cain - thank you for the amount you put into sharing what you know.  It's appreciated.

Quote from: trix on October 15, 2011, 11:41:17 PM
I fit right in!  Unfortunately.

You were hoping to be the odd one out?

Either way, good on you for going.  Stay warm & dry (and greetings my fellow n00b).


EDIT:  2 hours later, I think this sounds ridiculously douchy of me and apologise sincerely to trix.  I wish I could be at the protests here, but the new apartment I've moved into has bedbugs, I'm covered in lovely evil welts, slightly off my bean from 2 weeks of bites, cleaning, move-in, etc. and don't want my contribution to new tent city to be these evil buggers.

The 'odd one out' comment was meant to be a question about tactics, but I see people in this thread have been talking about that already for awhile.  Much respect to people outside tonight.

rhiz,
- out for the night. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 16, 2011, 07:10:35 AM
Occupy Portland organized a feeder march to join the Veterans For Peace march marking the ten-year anniversary of the Afghanistan War today. The media estimates put the whole group between 3,000 and 4,000 people, which sounds about right. After the march was over, most of the group decided to just keep marching back to the Occupation, and we had plenty of newcomers at the GA tonight. :)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on October 16, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
:mittens:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 16, 2011, 07:51:43 AM
I think we had 32 people at the high point of the Occupy Paducah rally. I realize that's a small group, but it's a hell of a lot more than I thought would show up (it is, after all, Paducah), especially with just 4 days warning. Lots of people honking and voicing support as they drove by and only a handful of people yelling "get a job." Fairly diverse group, too, based on the ones I talked to (I had my "local alternative rag reporter" hat on today): a few hippie types, several wage slaves, some students, a farmer, a chemical engineer, a retired airline pilot, a social worker, an iron worker, and an old hippie Ron Paul supporter who thinks the government's going to round us all up and put us in FEMA camps.

One cop stopped and ask if we had a permit (we didn't), but it turned out he was just driving by and stopped to let us know that without a permit the police would have to try to make us leave if anyone complained. I got the impression that if he weren't on duty he'd have been holding a sign with us.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 16, 2011, 04:24:02 PM
I have assembled a batch of audio taken from the Occupy Milwaukee protests.  They are entirely "Copyleft" I hope you enjoy them!

You can find them here--->     PD.com-Occupy Milwaukee: Interviews, Commentary, and More! (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30536.0)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 17, 2011, 07:46:36 AM
Occupy protests now have the backing of one of the Tea Party Express founders

http://rt.com/usa/news/tea-occupy-denninger-wall-819/

Quote"One of the things that the Occupy movement seems to have going for it is it has not turned around and issued a set of formal demands," said Denninger. "This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Everyone is looking for a set of demands." Denninger added that once the protesters formally approach the banks and government with a list of demands, "then somebody is going to say, 'Well, we gave you 70 percent. Now go home.'"

In the case of the Tea Party, Denninger says such organization was actually the group's downfall. "One of the things we wanted was the end to bailouts and an end to government deficit spending, and as you can see that didn't happen," said Denninger, who today manages The Market Ticker.

Denninger added that demonstrators with Occupy Wall Street and the offshoots across the world shouldn't just abandon their goals. "Stay on message, which is that the corruption is not a singular event," he said. "You can't focus in one place. You have to get the money out of politics, which is very difficult to do, but at the same time you can't silence people's voice."
.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 17, 2011, 04:21:17 PM
Here's an album of infographics which support the OWS points http://imgur.com/a/U4FR4#0

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
53 Tuscons arrested last night.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 17, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
53 Tuscons arrested last night.

Why were they arrested?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
53 Tuscons arrested last night.

Why were they arrested?

Carrying on and staying past the park's closing time.  I think the police just did it so the hardcore OWS members could up their protester cred.  The arrests were made professionally, with no head-cracking or other hilarity.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 17, 2011, 05:26:28 PM
Printing the occupy message on money, clever:
http://occupygeorge.com/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 17, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
53 Tuscons arrested last night.

Why were they arrested?

Carrying on and staying past the park's closing time.  I think the police just did it so the hardcore OWS members could up their protester cred.  The arrests were made professionally, with no head-cracking or other hilarity.

Well... good
Or fight the power
or :?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on October 17, 2011, 06:45:59 PM
Happened to wander past Occupy Providence last night.  Bunch of tents set up in a small (like, spit across small) park, lots of signs (at least spelled correctly, from a quick look), and not a lot of people.  Small drum circle, not much else. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 17, 2011, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
53 Tuscons arrested last night.

Why were they arrested?

Carrying on and staying past the park's closing time.  I think the police just did it so the hardcore OWS members could up their protester cred.  The arrests were made professionally, with no head-cracking or other hilarity.

Well... good
Or fight the power
or :?

At least they didn't bust heads!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 17, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
NYPD leaves big assed Marine the hell alone.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/17/us-marine-stands-up-to-the-nypd-at-occupy-wall-street-protests/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 07:43:25 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
53 Tuscons arrested last night.

Why were they arrested?

Carrying on and staying past the park's closing time.  I think the police just did it so the hardcore OWS members could up their protester cred.  The arrests were made professionally, with no head-cracking or other hilarity.

Well... good
Or fight the power
or :?

At least they didn't bust heads!

This is Tucson, Charley...The police are relieved to only have to manage a few hundred protesters, who aren't inclined to violence.  Horrible drunken domestic disputes, or a bunch of people holding signs.  Which would YOU rather deal with?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 17, 2011, 09:13:59 PM
You're all nazis. Tea Party sez so.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-accuses-occupy-wall-street-nazi-ties
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:21:13 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 17, 2011, 09:13:59 PM
You're all nazis. Tea Party sez so.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-accuses-occupy-wall-street-nazi-ties

:lulz:

Oh, the fucking irony.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 17, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Where is their "proof?"  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:26:38 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Where is their "proof?"  :lulz:

In Judson Phillips' tiny, tormented little mind.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 17, 2011, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:26:38 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Where is their "proof?"  :lulz:

In Judson Phillips' tiny, tormented little mind.   :lulz:

It's so absurd.  Don't they usually have tenuous (at best) circumstantial things plus their own spin at least?  This is just hilarious.

"OMG THEIR NAZI'S AND SOCHIALIST!"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:37:14 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:26:38 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Where is their "proof?"  :lulz:

In Judson Phillips' tiny, tormented little mind.   :lulz:

It's so absurd.  Don't they usually have tenuous (at best) circumstantial things plus their own spin at least?  This is just hilarious.

"OMG THEIR NAZI'S AND SOCHIALIST!"

"Heaving a brick through a window is an understandable rage reaction to the government's behavior."
- Teabaggers, 2009

"Getting run over by a NYPD thug's motorcycle is the last step before shoving Jews in the ovens."
- Teabaggers, 2011
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 17, 2011, 09:39:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:37:14 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 09:26:38 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 17, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Where is their "proof?"  :lulz:

In Judson Phillips' tiny, tormented little mind.   :lulz:

It's so absurd.  Don't they usually have tenuous (at best) circumstantial things plus their own spin at least?  This is just hilarious.

"OMG THEIR NAZI'S AND SOCHIALIST!"

"Heaving a brick through a window is an understandable rage reaction to the government's behavior."
- Teabaggers, 2009

"Getting run over by a NYPD thug's motorcycle is the last step before shoving Jews in the ovens."
- Teabaggers, 2011

I just don't understand some people.  And I really don't want to.  I'm pretty sure if I understood more, I wouldn't be able to function from all the oh jesus why can't this planet just die feelings.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 17, 2011, 10:55:27 PM
I'm walking away from the Portland Occupy. I believe in it, but I can't put any more energy into it, and ML is all over it and I don't want to be anywhere close to anything he's doing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 17, 2011, 11:19:11 PM
So all the people they've been calling lazy hippies are actually Nazis?

It's like they're immune to cognitive dissonance. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 17, 2011, 11:25:28 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 17, 2011, 11:19:11 PM
So all the people they've been calling lazy hippies are actually Nazis?

It's like they're immune to cognitive dissonance. 

No, you see hippies are Nazis because Herbert Marcuse, a socialist, was a huge influence on the New Left and because of National SOCIALISM and Jonah Goldberg wrote a book about this called Liberal Fascism, which proves Hitler was a vegan, feminist, PETA loving hippie freak.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 11:32:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 17, 2011, 11:25:28 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 17, 2011, 11:19:11 PM
So all the people they've been calling lazy hippies are actually Nazis?

It's like they're immune to cognitive dissonance. 

No, you see hippies are Nazis because Herbert Marcuse, a socialist, was a huge influence on the New Left and because of National SOCIALISM and Jonah Goldberg wrote a book about this called Liberal Fascism, which proves Hitler was a vegan, feminist, PETA loving hippie freak.

By that standard, the DPRK is a democracy.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 17, 2011, 11:37:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2011, 11:32:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 17, 2011, 11:25:28 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 17, 2011, 11:19:11 PM
So all the people they've been calling lazy hippies are actually Nazis?

It's like they're immune to cognitive dissonance. 

No, you see hippies are Nazis because Herbert Marcuse, a socialist, was a huge influence on the New Left and because of National SOCIALISM and Jonah Goldberg wrote a book about this called Liberal Fascism, which proves Hitler was a vegan, feminist, PETA loving hippie freak.

By that standard, the DPRK is a democracy.   :lulz:

Lies inherent in the name? 3.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on October 18, 2011, 12:22:37 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 17, 2011, 09:13:59 PM
You're all nazis. Tea Party sez so.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-accuses-occupy-wall-street-nazi-ties

QuoteOWS claims to be a leaderless movement, yet no one involved with the movement is willing to denounce the Nazis or the Communists. Contrast that to the Tea Party movement, which went overboard to make sure no one involved with the Tea Party movement was a racist or a Nazi.
:spittake:


:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 18, 2011, 02:18:44 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 17, 2011, 11:25:28 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 17, 2011, 11:19:11 PM
So all the people they've been calling lazy hippies are actually Nazis?

It's like they're immune to cognitive dissonance. 

No, you see hippies are Nazis because Herbert Marcuse, a socialist, was a huge influence on the New Left and because of National SOCIALISM and Jonah Goldberg wrote a book about this called Liberal Fascism, which proves Hitler was a vegan, feminist, PETA loving hippie freak.

Truly, they have a dizzying intellect.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 18, 2011, 07:54:27 AM
You guys just don't get how the quintessential fascist is not a stormtrooper, but a feminist liberal teacher from Brown or Swathmore (Goldberg did in fact claim this in his book).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 18, 2011, 12:33:09 PM
"OWS are Nazis" is the theme du jour.

I mean, just check this out  http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/17/bizarre-neo-swastika-reminiscent-of-the-great-dictator-used-as-power-symbol-by-ows-leaders/

QuoteNote also how when the "leaders" put the symbol on their sleeves (as in the first and third photos), it is rotated 45 degrees just like the Nazi swastika was.

Don't these people see an echo of the swastika in their new power symbol? Don't they realize that the early Nazi Party was (among other things, obviously) also overtly anti-capitalist? ("Hitler began to makethe [Nazi] partymuch more public, and he organised the party's biggest meeting yet of two thousand people, for 24 February 1920 in the Staatliches Hofbräuhaus in München. ... It was in this speech that Hitler, for the first time, enunciated the twenty-five points of the German Worker's Party's manifesto... In general, the manifesto was anti-Semitic,anti-capitalist, anti-democratic, anti-Marxist, and anti-liberal.") Don't they know that the early Nazis tried to garner sympathy with street rallies and marches?

The human fascination with not just power but also the symbols of power is well-documented — as are the many times that new attempts at populist movements get co-opted and sidetracked into totalitarianism. The OWS' endless obsession with unanimity and 100% "consensus" in their organizational meetings only adds to my concern.

What is this sinister, neo-Nazi symbol?

#

Yes, that's right, the hashtag.

Also, I thought the stupid hippies were so stupid that they didn't even have an agenda?  Moving from that to an "endless obsession with unanimity and 100% "consensus"" is rather impressive.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 18, 2011, 02:01:35 PM
aahhh hahahahahah!

[#]

:ohnotache:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 18, 2011, 03:00:07 PM
I can't even... What is going... I don't...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 18, 2011, 03:02:56 PM
It should be noted, this is only the second most retarded blog post I have read today. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 18, 2011, 03:05:18 PM
 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

I think the Occupy Movement is starting to frighten them.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 18, 2011, 05:04:07 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
NYPD leaves big assed Marine the hell alone.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/17/us-marine-stands-up-to-the-nypd-at-occupy-wall-street-protests/


Sharing this on FB.  The look on those officer's faces is almost as awesome as the rage in his voice!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 18, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 18, 2011, 09:10:16 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 17, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
NYPD leaves big assed Marine the hell alone.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/17/us-marine-stands-up-to-the-nypd-at-occupy-wall-street-protests/

Keith Olbermann interviewed him the other day ---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrnU5KGKHz8
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Golden Applesauce on October 18, 2011, 11:14:28 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 18, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

Seems irrelevant, tbh.  I wouldn't be completely against some kind of reasonable term limit for congressmen, but that's a (mostly) unrelated issue.  Making being a senator pay less just makes it even harder for people who aren't independently wealthy in the first place to run.  The problem isn't that congressmen have money, but that people with money have congressmen.

IIRC, the Roman senators were expected to serve more for honor than for money, and they developed some of the most blatantly corrupt practices ever (literally selling the taxpayer to the highest lowest bidder, and then bailing out the people who over-bid.)  See: Publicani.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on October 19, 2011, 04:36:30 AM
On a different note

Quote from: OccupySeattleDon't Need:

   Tarps
   Plastic sheeting
   Toilet Paper
   Mustard
   Peanut butter
   Bread
   Styrofoam plates
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 19, 2011, 04:44:33 AM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on October 19, 2011, 04:36:30 AM
On a different note

Quote from: OccupySeattleDon't Need:

   Tarps
   Plastic sheeting
   Toilet Paper
   Mustard
   Peanut butter
   Bread
   Styrofoam plates

I don't know why that's so fucking funny, but it is.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 19, 2011, 04:51:49 AM
Occupy Seattle cuts the mustard.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 19, 2011, 05:02:48 AM
I have befriended an Occupy Portland protester who is hooking me up with access to a screen printing studio. I also fist-bumped a Communist and voted in the General Assembly.

On the way back from Occupy Portland headquarters a member of our group stopped to literally piss on a bank. I thought it was quite civilly disobedient of him.

Here's a shot of the main encampment some time last week, late at night:

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6370/occupypdxheadquarters.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/occupypdxheadquarters.png/)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on October 19, 2011, 05:05:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 19, 2011, 04:44:33 AM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on October 19, 2011, 04:36:30 AM
On a different note

Quote from: OccupySeattleDon't Need:

   Tarps
   Plastic sheeting
   Toilet Paper
   Mustard
   Peanut butter
   Bread
   Styrofoam plates

I don't know why that's so fucking funny, but it is.

Next pay day I am having several jars of mustard sent to them.

And then a few packages of boot socks. They need warm socks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pæs on October 19, 2011, 06:26:06 AM
Occupy Wellington is a small collection of barefooted hippiemutants exchanging buzzwords.

"Oligarchy peak oil, Orwell?"

"Mm," followed by a bunch of approving nods, "Capitalism bankers recession conspiracy. ELECTRIC CARS. Right?"

"DUDE, YOU TOTALLY GET IT. WANNA HEAR THE TWO GUITAR CHORDS I KNOW?"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 19, 2011, 10:32:06 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 18, 2011, 11:14:28 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 18, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

Seems irrelevant, tbh.  I wouldn't be completely against some kind of reasonable term limit for congressmen, but that's a (mostly) unrelated issue.  Making being a senator pay less just makes it even harder for people who aren't independently wealthy in the first place to run.  The problem isn't that congressmen have money, but that people with money have congressmen.

IIRC, the Roman senators were expected to serve more for honor than for money, and they developed some of the most blatantly corrupt practices ever (literally selling the taxpayer to the highest lowest bidder, and then bailing out the people who over-bid.)  See: Publicani.




TURNS OUT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT TOO:::

http://blog.dutiee.com/robinhood-tax-bill-gates-warren-buffet-and-millions-worldwide-plan-worlds-biggest-bank-job/
Robin Hood Tax: Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Millions Worldwide Plan the World's Biggest Bank Job
(http://blog.dutiee.com/robinhood-tax-bill-gates-warren-buffet-and-millions-worldwide-plan-worlds-biggest-bank-job/)

:? :? :? :? :?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 19, 2011, 10:41:17 AM
Technically that is called a Tobin Tax, and I've supported something like that for a while now.  It is very small, as you can see (0.05%) yet the additional revenue raised from it is quite extensive, and would go a long way to solving spending issues and paying off sovereign debt.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on October 19, 2011, 10:59:59 AM
Except, of course, the banks are already gearing up to pass the tax on to their customers, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 19, 2011, 11:05:13 AM
And a 0.05% tax on all your transactions is going to hurt how much exactly?

Besides, it's not just commercial banks, it is investment banks, hedge funds and similar financial institutions.  Most of which the average person in the street never uses or interacts with anyway. 

But you know, we could just stick with cutting taxes and cutting spending instead, because that seems to be really working out well so far.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on October 19, 2011, 11:11:42 AM
They couldn't afford to pass on the full amount of pain to their commercial clients - if the figures I came across before are accurate, private savings make up 0.1% of banking. Passing on the cost would be simply too much to be tenable.

A tobin tax would be fantastic. It'll be interesting to see how politicians react if this becomes a mainstream demand.

ETA: Herp derp I screwed up my maths. Point still stands though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Golden Applesauce on October 19, 2011, 01:27:28 PM
Apparently, Lemony Snicket has some things to say about OWS.  Who knew?

http://occupywriters.com/by-lemony-snicket
Quote
Thirteen Observations made by Lemony Snicket while watching Occupy Wall Street from a Discreet Distance

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn't mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. "Fortune" is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn't matter are like people who say cake doesn't matter—it's probably because they've already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they've been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don't tell them they aren't. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don't ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you're the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on October 19, 2011, 01:31:32 PM
I go to OWS and I Scream!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/10/occupy-wall-street-ben-jerrys
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 19, 2011, 03:50:37 PM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on October 18, 2011, 11:14:28 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 18, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

Seems irrelevant, tbh.  I wouldn't be completely against some kind of reasonable term limit for congressmen, but that's a (mostly) unrelated issue.  Making being a senator pay less just makes it even harder for people who aren't independently wealthy in the first place to run.  The problem isn't that congressmen have money, but that people with money have congressmen.

IIRC, the Roman senators were expected to serve more for honor than for money, and they developed some of the most blatantly corrupt practices ever (literally selling the taxpayer to the highest lowest bidder, and then bailing out the people who over-bid.)  See: Publicani.

I am amazed at how much of the proposals you ignored. This is about so much more than term limits.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 19, 2011, 03:52:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 18, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

I've seen something very close to the amendment portion of this before, usually coming from Tea Party types. IIRC, the big difference was that the previous version also called for cuts to travel budgets and housing allowances for Congress members (which could make it impossibly for the non-independently wealthy to serve, even if they by some miracle got elected). Does anybody know whether Buffet has actually suggested this or if they're just using his quote to give the amendment credibility by proximity?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 19, 2011, 03:53:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 19, 2011, 10:41:17 AM
Technically that is called a Tobin Tax, and I've supported something like that for a while now.  It is very small, as you can see (0.05%) yet the additional revenue raised from it is quite extensive, and would go a long way to solving spending issues and paying off sovereign debt.

I can get behind this. Get ready for the banks to flood your TV with ads screaming about how this will destroy the economy though. They will spend enough on those ads to probably cover a years worth of the proposed tax.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 19, 2011, 03:59:06 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 19, 2011, 03:52:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 18, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

I've seen something very close to the amendment portion of this before, usually coming from Tea Party types. IIRC, the big difference was that the previous version also called for cuts to travel budgets and housing allowances for Congress members (which could make it impossibly for the non-independently wealthy to serve, even if they by some miracle got elected). Does anybody know whether Buffet has actually suggested this or if they're just using his quote to give the amendment credibility by proximity?


It already is impossible for the average Joe to serve in Congress. If these steps were followed however, it may remove the incentive for the super wealthy to want to serve, which in turn could be campaign reform by default.

The way I read it was they just used the quote in the opening, but not sure.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 19, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Yeah, this one takes away the most obvious "Only millionaires can serve" line items from the tea party version.

I do, however, agree with whoever pointed out that congressional benefits and career politicians are a relatively small part of the problem. As long as corporate money remains in the system, changes like the ones proposed here are just rearranging the deck chairs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 19, 2011, 04:09:15 PM
The least corrupt political system in the world is in Singapore.  You know why?  On the one hand, Singaporese politicians are the highest paid on the planet.  And on the other hand, if they get caught on the take...well, barred from politics from life, plus hefty jail-time, plus a large fine is a mighty decent deterrent.

They have no incentive to take bribes, and every incentive to avoid being caught doing so.  This works remarkably well.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 19, 2011, 04:11:54 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 19, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Yeah, this one takes away the most obvious "Only millionaires can serve" line items from the tea party version.

I do, however, agree with whoever pointed out that congressional benefits and career politicians are a relatively small part of the problem. As long as corporate money remains in the system, changes like the ones proposed here are just rearranging the deck chairs.

I remain unconvinced of this argument. Career politicians become power brokers and thereby hold much more influence than was ever intended. When this happens they have the ability to change the rules cementing that power. What this does is feed a corrupt system, making it grow ever worse.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 19, 2011, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 19, 2011, 04:09:15 PM
The least corrupt political system in the world is in Singapore.  You know why?  On the one hand, Singaporese politicians are the highest paid on the planet.  And on the other hand, if they get caught on the take...well, barred from politics from life, plus hefty jail-time, plus a large fine is a mighty decent deterrent.

They have no incentive to take bribes, and every incentive to avoid being caught doing so.  This works remarkably well.

This I did not know.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 04:31:14 PM
So I am being informed that the police came to the Occupy Carbondale protest and forcibly took down and confiscated the tents. Note that the temperature is dropping, it's been raining the past couple days, and the occupiers have been camped there since the weekend. Note also that the protesters were told that they can continue to occupy the area, but are not allowed to put up tents.

Phox,
Might come up with a plan.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Rev on October 19, 2011, 04:37:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 04:31:14 PM
So I am being informed that the police came to the Occupy Carbondale protest and forcibly took down and confiscated the tents. Note that the temperature is dropping, it's been raining the past couple days, and the occupiers have been camped there since the weekend. Note also that the protesters were told that they can continue to occupy the area, but are not allowed to put up tents.

Phox,
Might come up with a plan.

Pass out umbrellas and have everybody there stand in the 99% shape.

They did something like this at The Vigil for Peace. We were allowed to be there, but no personal items were allowed to be on the sidewalk.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 04:51:23 PM
That's a good idea. But I was thinking a more long-term shelter of some sort. Perhaps one of those pavilion frames with some heavy canvas draped over it....
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 19, 2011, 05:01:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 04:31:14 PM
So I am being informed that the police came to the Occupy Carbondale protest and forcibly took down and confiscated the tents. Note that the temperature is dropping, it's been raining the past couple days, and the occupiers have been camped there since the weekend. Note also that the protesters were told that they can continue to occupy the area, but are not allowed to put up tents.

Phox,
Might come up with a plan.

Pics (and, of course, delightful comments from some of the area's most delightful intellectuals)
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150511844854569.459504.119187564568&type=1 (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150511844854569.459504.119187564568&type=1)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 19, 2011, 05:09:58 PM
Quote from: Luna on October 19, 2011, 10:59:59 AM
Except, of course, the banks are already gearing up to pass the tax on to their customers, I'm sure.

It doesn't effect the general public, so they'd be passing it on mainly to other banks and corporate investments... exactly the sector who needs to pay it. At .05% it's really only an effective tax when applied to huge transactions, as it's meant.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 07:22:03 PM
They've thrown tarps over the Bucky Dome.  :lulz:

For those who don't know, the Bucky Dome is one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_dome), that was erected in the 60s by this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller).

ETA:  No pics today, don't have a camera with me. Maybe later tonight, if things go as I plan.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 19, 2011, 07:33:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 07:22:03 PM
They've thrown tarps over the Bucky Dome.  :lulz:

For those who don't know, the Bucky Dome is one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_dome), that was erected in the 60s by this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller).

ETA:  No pics today, don't have a camera with me. Maybe later tonight, if things go as I plan.

:? Why?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 19, 2011, 07:45:15 PM
Probably to get around the "no tents" rule.


Or was that more of a metaphysical "Why"?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 07:49:42 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 19, 2011, 07:45:15 PM
Probably to get around the "no tents" rule.


Or was that more of a metaphysical "Why"?
Right, LMNO. I'm waiting for the cops to tell them to take those down too.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on October 19, 2011, 10:03:35 PM
The Tea Party is now warning people that the Occupy movement is racist.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-accuses-occupy-wall-street-nazi-ties

QuoteOWS claims to be a leaderless movement, yet no one involved with the movement is willing to denounce the Nazis or the Communists. Contrast that to the Tea Party movement, which went overboard to make sure no one involved with the Tea Party movement was a racist or a Nazi.

OWS seems to have no problem with Nazis or the Communists. OWS supports forms of totalitarianism that directly killed about 250 million people in the last century and enslaved billions in poverty and tyranny.

The OWS movement, contrary to the media myth that is being spun, is not just a spontaneous uprising, but rather a well-planned event. It is not simply a group of dissatisfied Americans seeking redress of their grievances. It is a well thought out plan by far left wing groups.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 19, 2011, 10:13:49 PM
Error #1:

The American Left Wing is less than 0.001% as organized and on-the-ball as it would need to be in order to plan and execute something like this.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:17:35 PM
So, there's been talk that the authorities are THREATENING TO REMOVE THE DOME.  :lulz:

Granted, this is hearsay so far as I know, but I SO WANT IT TO BE TRUE.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 19, 2011, 10:21:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:17:35 PM
So, there's been talk that the authorities are THREATENING TO REMOVE THE DOME.  :lulz:

Granted, this is hearsay so far as I know, but I SO WANT IT TO BE TRUE.

Wait... this is a historic building, right? WTF.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:33:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 19, 2011, 10:21:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:17:35 PM
So, there's been talk that the authorities are THREATENING TO REMOVE THE DOME.  :lulz:

Granted, this is hearsay so far as I know, but I SO WANT IT TO BE TRUE.

Wait... this is a historic building, right? WTF.  :lol:
Yeah.
THE OTHER THING I HEARD.
People from the Buckminster Fuller Institute were on campus today considering SIU as a finalist in the BFI Challenge Award (http://challenge.bfi.org/). No idea if it's true but, still hilarious.


However, it seems as if this was exaggerated and that's no intent to remove the dome, and the occupiers would be allowed to set up tents across the street from the dome (i.e. not on campus, but on the property of an organization that is supportive of the occupiers). So... yeah.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 19, 2011, 10:38:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:33:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 19, 2011, 10:21:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:17:35 PM
So, there's been talk that the authorities are THREATENING TO REMOVE THE DOME.  :lulz:

Granted, this is hearsay so far as I know, but I SO WANT IT TO BE TRUE.

Wait... this is a historic building, right? WTF.  :lol:
Yeah.
THE OTHER THING I HEARD.
People from the Buckminster Fuller Institute were on campus today considering SIU as a finalist in the BFI Challenge Award (http://challenge.bfi.org/). No idea if it's true but, still hilarious.


However, it seems as if this was exaggerated and that's no intent to remove the dome, and the occupiers would be allowed to set up tents across the street from the dome (i.e. not on campus, but on the property of an organization that is supportive of the occupiers). So... yeah.  :lol:

What is this and what do?  I looked at the link (and behind it too) and I didn't see anything clear of why that's funny.  :?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:39:48 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 19, 2011, 10:38:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:33:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 19, 2011, 10:21:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 19, 2011, 10:17:35 PM
So, there's been talk that the authorities are THREATENING TO REMOVE THE DOME.  :lulz:

Granted, this is hearsay so far as I know, but I SO WANT IT TO BE TRUE.

Wait... this is a historic building, right? WTF.  :lol:
Yeah.
THE OTHER THING I HEARD.
People from the Buckminster Fuller Institute were on campus today considering SIU as a finalist in the BFI Challenge Award (http://challenge.bfi.org/). No idea if it's true but, still hilarious.


However, it seems as if this was exaggerated and that's no intent to remove the dome, and the occupiers would be allowed to set up tents across the street from the dome (i.e. not on campus, but on the property of an organization that is supportive of the occupiers). So... yeah.  :lol:

What is this and what do?  I looked at the link (and behind it too) and I didn't see anything clear of why that's funny.  :?
Buckminster Fuller is the guy who designed and built the dome when he was a professor here. It's named after him.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on October 19, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 19, 2011, 04:09:15 PM
The least corrupt political system in the world is in Singapore.  You know why?  On the one hand, Singaporese politicians are the highest paid on the planet.  And on the other hand, if they get caught on the take...well, barred from politics from life, plus hefty jail-time, plus a large fine is a mighty decent deterrent.

They have no incentive to take bribes, and every incentive to avoid being caught doing so.  This works remarkably well.

This is why Ideas like congress not empowered to get a pay rise are bad.

Yesterday we were discussing our education budget with the union and The comment was made that you need high quality pay for high quality teaching. Then everyone started complaining about politician pay rises. I understand why, but I would think it clear that the same applies.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on October 20, 2011, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on October 19, 2011, 10:03:35 PM
The Tea Party is now warning people that the Occupy movement is racist.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-accuses-occupy-wall-street-nazi-ties

QuoteOWS claims to be a leaderless movement, yet no one involved with the movement is willing to denounce the Nazis or the Communists. Contrast that to the Tea Party movement, which went overboard to make sure no one involved with the Tea Party movement was a racist or a Nazi.

OWS seems to have no problem with Nazis or the Communists. OWS supports forms of totalitarianism that directly killed about 250 million people in the last century and enslaved billions in poverty and tyranny.

The OWS movement, contrary to the media myth that is being spun, is not just a spontaneous uprising, but rather a well-planned event. It is not simply a group of dissatisfied Americans seeking redress of their grievances. It is a well thought out plan by far left wing groups.
Oh yeah, they've been doing that for a couple weeks. Mostly accusing them of antisemitism, entirely based on one guy's comments iirc.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on October 20, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.


THIS.

At least from what I am beginning to see as well at Tampa.
This is also why I am questioning whether to continue the support of the local Occupy or just go Occupy Hopping.
You know for the   :lulz:

I may just support the Global Movement from here forth.
*shruggs*
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 20, 2011, 11:19:29 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/yuZIX.jpg)

Perfect sign.  10/10
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 20, 2011, 11:56:50 AM
I think Laughin Jude and maphdet both underestimate the value of merely holding your ill-gotten, illegal campgrounds and making international headlines. Especially with signs like the one Cain posted.

I'm evangelizing to the newly-hired Nike heathen and she's only listening to me because she's heard about the global Occupy movement in the news. I keep making a point of toxic derivatives, the record high poverty rate, disappearing middle class, and massive concentrations of wealth among the 0.5%. I also post regularly on neo-conservative magazines and blogs every time they bring up the Occupy protests. I do give them credit in publishing my comments, though they consistently lack the spine to address even one of my points. This classmate though, she's intellectually honest enough to get what I'm saying.

I'm still optimistic.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 20, 2011, 07:09:28 PM
I see the value in and support the Occupation movement as a whole; I just don't think the GA process as it's occurring in Portland has much value. Making noise, being visible and encouraging people to address the movement (whether they want to or not) seems effective. Spending three nights endlessly debating the same toothless resolutions while going in circles over the process, not so much.

Or in Discordian terms: It seems that it won't be the bureaucratic, orderly part of this movement that's going to lead to change; it's the decentralized, chaotic parts that will probably do so, assuming anything will.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: maphdet on October 20, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.


THIS.

At least from what I am beginning to see as well at Tampa.
This is also why I am questioning whether to continue the support of the local Occupy or just go Occupy Hopping.
You know for the   :lulz:

I may just support the Global Movement from here forth.
*shruggs*

My feeling is to fuck the GA and support Occupy by joining or forming your own splinter group. The encampments are useful in that they do get media attention, but the marches are also important and you can organize your own at any time, even though vocal members of your encampment's GA will then most likely proceed to have a pants-wetting spittle-spewing hissy-fit about how it's "not authorized".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: maphdet on October 20, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.


THIS.

At least from what I am beginning to see as well at Tampa.
This is also why I am questioning whether to continue the support of the local Occupy or just go Occupy Hopping.
You know for the   :lulz:

I may just support the Global Movement from here forth.
*shruggs*

My feeling is to fuck the GA and support Occupy by joining or forming your own splinter group. The encampments are useful in that they do get media attention, but the marches are also important and you can organize your own at any time, even though vocal members of your encampment's GA will then most likely proceed to have a pants-wetting spittle-spewing hissy-fit about how it's "not authorized".

wat

What's a GA, and who the fuck authorizes this shit?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: maphdet on October 20, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.


THIS.

At least from what I am beginning to see as well at Tampa.
This is also why I am questioning whether to continue the support of the local Occupy or just go Occupy Hopping.
You know for the   :lulz:

I may just support the Global Movement from here forth.
*shruggs*

My feeling is to fuck the GA and support Occupy by joining or forming your own splinter group. The encampments are useful in that they do get media attention, but the marches are also important and you can organize your own at any time, even though vocal members of your encampment's GA will then most likely proceed to have a pants-wetting spittle-spewing hissy-fit about how it's "not authorized".

wat

What's a GA, and who the fuck authorizes this shit?

General Assembly, which is comprised of anyone who makes it to the meetings (held at the encampments) and is supposed to operate by consensus, but in practice I bet you can guess how it really works.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 07:49:26 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: maphdet on October 20, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.


THIS.

At least from what I am beginning to see as well at Tampa.
This is also why I am questioning whether to continue the support of the local Occupy or just go Occupy Hopping.
You know for the   :lulz:

I may just support the Global Movement from here forth.
*shruggs*

My feeling is to fuck the GA and support Occupy by joining or forming your own splinter group. The encampments are useful in that they do get media attention, but the marches are also important and you can organize your own at any time, even though vocal members of your encampment's GA will then most likely proceed to have a pants-wetting spittle-spewing hissy-fit about how it's "not authorized".

wat

What's a GA, and who the fuck authorizes this shit?

General Assembly, which is comprised of anyone who makes it to the meetings (held at the encampments) and is supposed to operate by consensus, but in practice I bet you can guess how it really works.

"Ook"  ?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: PopeTom on October 20, 2011, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 20, 2011, 11:19:29 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/yuZIX.jpg)

Perfect sign.  10/10

I think she forgot the part where you then insure those securities, even though you don't own them, so that when they fail you get a huge pay out.
As well as selling them short.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 20, 2011, 07:56:06 PM
Well, you can only fit so much on a sign. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:57:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 07:49:26 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 20, 2011, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: maphdet on October 20, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 19, 2011, 06:15:09 AM
The Portland GA is pretty much mired in bureaucracy and feel-good hippie bullshit where everyone is included (except when they're not), all points of view are considered (except when they're not), the process is always open to reinterpretation and refinement (except when it's not) and nothing really seems to ever get done. It's just Congress all over again and pretty much worthless.

The committees are the ones keeping it going; them, and just random awesome people doing shit on their own. But yeah, the GA system seems horribly, laughably broken here from what I've seen the past week.


THIS.

At least from what I am beginning to see as well at Tampa.
This is also why I am questioning whether to continue the support of the local Occupy or just go Occupy Hopping.
You know for the   :lulz:

I may just support the Global Movement from here forth.
*shruggs*

My feeling is to fuck the GA and support Occupy by joining or forming your own splinter group. The encampments are useful in that they do get media attention, but the marches are also important and you can organize your own at any time, even though vocal members of your encampment's GA will then most likely proceed to have a pants-wetting spittle-spewing hissy-fit about how it's "not authorized".

wat

What's a GA, and who the fuck authorizes this shit?

General Assembly, which is comprised of anyone who makes it to the meetings (held at the encampments) and is supposed to operate by consensus, but in practice I bet you can guess how it really works.

"Ook"  ?

Precisely.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 20, 2011, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: PopeTom on October 20, 2011, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 20, 2011, 11:19:29 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/yuZIX.jpg)

Perfect sign.  10/10

I think she forgot the part where you then insure those securities, even though you don't own them, so that when they fail you get a huge pay out.
As well as selling them short.

Also the part where you make hedge bets against the companies who insure those securities, so that you get another huge payout when their stock price tanks because they can't afford to settle their counterparty obligations.

Also the part where you threaten to force those companies to liquidate the insurance policies and consumer deposit accounts they hold to settle their counterparty obligations, in order to compel the government to step in and use taxpayer money to make up the difference.

But yeah, what Cain said.  The sign is great, but as it is it's already tl;dr for most people.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 20, 2011, 09:42:27 PM
Has anyone posted this yet?

This guy's going OFF!  The looks on the faces of the folks sitting across from him are hilarious...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI_P3pxze5w&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 20, 2011, 10:11:18 PM
That video is great.

Just to give an example of why I'm frustrated to the point of not caring about the GA beyond the usual primate bureaucracy bullshit: I went out a few nights ago and they were discussing moving the GA to Pioneer Square, which is a central part of the city where people who aren't coming out to the (somewhat hidden) encampment would actually see and hear shit happening. It's also where a lot of news crews film every night. It would be awesome PR. Oh, and we wouldn't have to finish every GA by 9:45 because the federal park where they're being held now has a 10pm curfew. All in all, it sounded like a hell of an idea to actually vitalize the process.

It was shot down because:

1) People who are disabled might have trouble getting there and we have to have everyone's voice heard at the GA (and nevermind that attendance is dropping from week to week already). I understand the concern here, but for god's sake, talk about shooting yourself in the foot over your liberal sensibilities. Also, the train that runs a couple blocks from the encampment to the square is in the Free Rail Zone, which means what you think it means (not to mention you have to go a block from the encampment to get to the GA where it is now, and that space has a bunch of steps anyway, so it's hardly wheelchair/walker friendly).

2) The permit for Pioneer Square is expensive, and we'd need another permit to use a loudspeaker or PA system. W... what!? Permit? What the fuck!? Did this movement lose its balls sometime in the past week? Fucking Portland...

So yeah, pretty much done with the Portland GA, but not the wider movement. Like I said, the committees and especially just motivated individuals are doing good work.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2011, 10:13:48 PM
Annnnnnnnd the modern left strikes again.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on October 21, 2011, 02:26:04 AM
Occupy Charlotte has two competing FB pages run by different people trying to assert themselves as leaders.

Thread with lots of monkey drama here: OCCUPY CHARLOTTE IS A FAILURE (https://www.facebook.com/gothicadam/posts/229890230403654)

Linked thread also has a couple of people claiming to represent Anonymous.

Also, photo albums of screen shots: Slander and lies from anonymous north carolina and its groupies (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.162993487126904.37908.152227828203470&type=1), More slander from anonymous North carolina and its groupies (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.162995810460005.37909.152227828203470&type=1).

:monkeydance:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 21, 2011, 02:50:24 AM
Ohhh lordy.  :argh!: :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 21, 2011, 03:14:09 PM
OOOOOK!

:monkeydance:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 21, 2011, 03:33:35 PM
http://hotchicksofoccupywallstreet.tumblr.com/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on October 22, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
Melbourne is clearly having some Police assisted fun times. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRZBVqioeU)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 22, 2011, 03:31:35 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on October 22, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
Melbourne is clearly having some Police assisted fun times. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRZBVqioeU)

I guess they don't have the right to protest in Australia.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 22, 2011, 12:00:02 PM
On Have I Got News For You last night, Tory simpleton and chick-lit author Louise Mensch was trying to take a shot at Occupy London by pointing out people there drank coffee and used iPhones.

She got utterly ripped apart by the two team captains, Paul Merton and Ian Hislop.  Paul Merton, in his usual style, made a recurring gag about how people who drink coffee are no longer allowed an opinion, and Ian Hislop said of course, if the economy sucked due to something bankers did, then maybe the protestors would have a point.

I'd link, only non-Brits cannot use BBC iPlayer.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 22, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2011, 12:00:02 PM
On Have I Got News For You last night, Tory simpleton and chick-lit author Louise Mensch was trying to take a shot at Occupy London by pointing out people there drank coffee and used iPhones.

She got utterly ripped apart by the two team captains, Paul Merton and Ian Hislop.  Paul Merton, in his usual style, made a recurring gag about how people who drink coffee are no longer allowed an opinion, and Ian Hislop said of course, if the economy sucked due to something bankers did, then maybe the protestors would have a point.

I'd link, only non-Brits cannot use BBC iPlayer.

I was deconstructing that argument just the other day (as diplomatically as possible since dude owes me).

The strategy seems to originate with that CNN woman Pickle was derping to, right? I can't seem to find it...

We should do some image macros that mock this somewhat popular meme.

(http://i.imgur.com/oocwh.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 22, 2011, 10:00:59 PM
The best way is not to frame it as anti-capitalist or anti-corporate protests, but as anti-financial crime protests.

Because, at its most basic, the banks were involved in criminal acts, on a mass scale.  No-one has been punished, instead they have been rewarded.

That's how I always frame it, anyway.  They committed enough fraud to bring the world economy to the brink, they need to pay for what they did.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 23, 2011, 03:23:36 AM
Quote from: Net on October 22, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2011, 12:00:02 PM
On Have I Got News For You last night, Tory simpleton and chick-lit author Louise Mensch was trying to take a shot at Occupy London by pointing out people there drank coffee and used iPhones.

She got utterly ripped apart by the two team captains, Paul Merton and Ian Hislop.  Paul Merton, in his usual style, made a recurring gag about how people who drink coffee are no longer allowed an opinion, and Ian Hislop said of course, if the economy sucked due to something bankers did, then maybe the protestors would have a point.

I'd link, only non-Brits cannot use BBC iPlayer.

I was deconstructing that argument just the other day (as diplomatically as possible since dude owes me).

The strategy seems to originate with that CNN woman Pickle was derping to, right? I can't seem to find it...

We should do some image macros that mock this somewhat popular meme.

(http://i.imgur.com/oocwh.jpg)

I like this.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 23, 2011, 03:23:58 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2011, 10:00:59 PM
The best way is not to frame it as anti-capitalist or anti-corporate protests, but as anti-financial crime protests.

Because, at its most basic, the banks were involved in criminal acts, on a mass scale.  No-one has been punished, instead they have been rewarded.

That's how I always frame it, anyway.  They committed enough fraud to bring the world economy to the brink, they need to pay for what they did.

I also like this.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on October 23, 2011, 05:00:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 22, 2011, 03:31:35 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on October 22, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
Melbourne is clearly having some Police assisted fun times. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRZBVqioeU)

I guess they don't have the right to protest in Australia.

Well everyone actually calmed the fuck down yesterday. Not sure how it's going today.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 23, 2011, 12:38:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2011, 10:00:59 PM
The best way is not to frame it as anti-capitalist or anti-corporate protests, but as anti-financial crime protests.

Because, at its most basic, the banks were involved in criminal acts, on a mass scale.  No-one has been punished, instead they have been rewarded.

That's how I always frame it, anyway.  They committed enough fraud to bring the world economy to the brink, they need to pay for what they did.

The idea was to mock the broad-brush anti-corporate frame (coffee and iPhones, see), but perhaps Poe's Law strikes again.

In my conversations I frame the situation in almost the exact same terms and then elaborate on some of the particulars.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 23, 2011, 08:54:50 PM
THAT MAN IS WEARING PANTS

PROTEST INVALIDATED.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 23, 2011, 11:02:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 23, 2011, 08:54:50 PM
THAT MAN IS WEARING PANTS

PROTEST INVALIDATED.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 24, 2011, 03:05:10 PM
Isn't it great how Occupy is a truly ''across the board'' movement, unifying people of all persuasions to act against the evil Jewish overlords international financial corruption?

http://www.newser.com/story/131217/nazi-party-endorses-occupy-wall-street.html
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2011, 03:31:34 PM
Daily reminder: if fascists support something, it makes everyone else who does so a fascist.

Fascists against the Iraq War?  Being against the Iraq War means you're a Nazi.

Strangely, this argument never seems to apply to the far right's support of Israel in Europe, or their support of draconian anti-terrorism and immigration legislation.  Funny that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2011, 03:34:49 PM
More proof of Occupy's fascism:

What does Occupy want?  More jobs.

What did the fascists in Europe win on a platform of providing?  More jobs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on October 24, 2011, 03:41:39 PM
only fascists want jobs. true patriots don't want jobs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 24, 2011, 05:02:09 PM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on October 24, 2011, 03:41:39 PM
only fascists want jobs. true patriots don't want jobs.
Only Anarchists truly embrace both ideals. ie: Everybody else can work if they want to, but I'm . . 

A/Too much of an idealistic purist to actually work myself.
B/ Obeying my anarchical principles, which dictate I remain outside the corruption of the workpool.
C/ Rules is for fools, Jobs is for Knobs, All Coppers are Bastards, and Fuck you too!


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2011, 03:44:55 AM
Uh, what the hell?

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Chemical-bomb-tossed-into-Occupy-Maine-encampment.html

QuotePORTLAND — Occupy Maine protesters say Sunday morning's attack with a chemical explosive has left them with a mixture of anxiety and resolve.

"We are more motivated to keep doing what we're doing," said Stephanie Wilburn, of Portland, who was sitting near where the chemical mixture in a Gatorade bottle was tossed at 4 a.m. Sunday. "They have heard us and we're making a difference."

Wilburn said she was startled and briefly lost hearing in her left ear when the device exploded beneath a table about 10 feet away. Wilburn's hearing returned and police said no injuries were reported.

Portland police Sgt. Glen McGary said the bomb was thrown into the camp's kitchen, a tarped area where food is cooked and served. Protest organizers said the explosion lifted a large table about a foot off the ground.

"There was no fire . . . We had a good 20 feet of thick smoke rolling out from under the table," Wilburn said. They could see the "G" on the 24-ounce bottle and its orange cap, as well as bits of silver metal, she said.

She and a friend who ran over to look at it breathed in fumes that smelled like ammonia, she said.

Witnesses said a silver car had been circling before the attack, its occupants shouting things like "Get a job" and "You communist." They believe someone from that car threw the device, according to a statement from Occupy Maine.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on October 25, 2011, 04:36:34 AM
A Tea Party Patriot fighting Communist Nazis.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2011, 04:39:40 AM
The article does go on to say police suspect that the Occupy protest was not a deliberately chosen target, as another device of the same design was set off that night.

However, that could have been a trial run, to test the design and see how it performed, with Occupy still being the main target.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 25, 2011, 05:29:47 AM
Way to make sure the Occupation keeps on rolling, now that it has violent opposition, dumbfucks!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2011, 01:02:55 PM
One of my friends was one of the closest people to the blast. He said it was just pure dumb luck that nobody was injured or worse as the area the device was thrown into is ordinarily quite crowded.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 25, 2011, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 25, 2011, 05:29:47 AM
Way to make sure the Occupation keeps on rolling, now that it has violent opposition, dumbfucks!

That's about the only upside.

But, daaaaaaaaaaaamn what the fuuuuck.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 25, 2011, 02:15:37 PM
So...the attitude of the police is nonchalant on this?

Nice.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on October 25, 2011, 02:47:36 PM
Ok, I was talking with a friend about Occupy last night, and I started thinking:  What's the end game, here?  We know what the protesters want (well, most of 'em): to hold wall street accountable for essentially destroying the economy.  But how do you get there from here?  The democratic (small "d") way would be to elect representitives who run on a platform of holding Wall Street accountable.  However, a) I really doubt tent city will be allowed to stay in place until November 2012, and b) It's still a one party system disguised as a two party system. 

So how does this all end?  With a Chicago '68 bang, or a day after Woodstock wimper?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 25, 2011, 03:10:18 PM
Well,

at some point, we're going to have to tie down the bankers, plug tubes down their throats, force-feed them on foie-gras, and eat their livers.

But then what?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 25, 2011, 03:13:03 PM
I've been thinking about this too. Here's how I visualize the best case scenario.

Occupiers continue hanging out and making noise. They succeed in transmitting a populist meme to the collective consciousness of America: Let's elect people that are working for us, and vote out people that are working against us. The topics to focus on are money (Cui Bono?) and corruption.

November 6th, 2011: the one year countdown to the 2012 election begins. The supporters of OSW have become a grassroots political entity, beholden to neither the democratic party nor the mainstream media. Even after the protests end, there continues to be a core body of activists who can transmit information to the masses without using traditional media channels.

This group reframes the political discussion around corruption/noncorruption instead of liberal/conservative. They are successful at this because there is a sense that they are the populist group, they represent the largest possible consensus of concerned, informed American citizens. Both the democratic and republican parties court their approval.

The year 2012: Congress gets increasingly anxious about the upcoming elections. Americans have never payed attention to these races before! There is a race to pass as much OSW-supported legislation as possible. A lot of political currency might be gained from answering their demands.

November 6th, 2012: the election takes place and there is a massive turnover. The election's energy is fueled by the propaganda of the OSW movement and the focus on corruption/noncorruption. We collectively elect a rag-tag group of freshman congressman/senators who aren't afraid to push through unpopular legislation like lobbying restrictions and campaign finance reform.


In the end, the moral of the story is that the HOPE we felt during the 2004 Obama campaign does not come from politicians, it comes from the public standing up on their feet and participating in democracy.

Frankly, I consider it a win condition if they change the conversation about how things get better in America. In the last 10 years, we've gotten more jaded, cynical, and hopeless about things - the important thing IMO is that we get a new narrative about activism. We have to demonstrate that things can actually get better. Whether the OSW protests are visibly "successful" or not, they will set the stage and tone for American activism in the next decade or more.


This may sound optimistic, but I don't think it's entirely unrealistic.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2011, 03:17:19 PM
Those people in the parks aint exactly got anywhere to go, unless they're getting jobs, which wont happen for oh so many reasons.

The real question is, will the government try to take notice of these protests and act accordingly, or will people have to go all "Baader-Meinhof" in order to swing the pendulum back?

I honestly think, in the long-term, that is the situation we're looking at, if something is not resolved.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on October 25, 2011, 03:33:32 PM
That's a great summary, Cram.

I especially think this part is very important:

Quote from: Cramulus on October 25, 2011, 03:13:03 PM
This group reframes the political discussion around corruption/noncorruption instead of liberal/conservative.

I almost think that any Occupy slogan, target, goal, speech or rant that does not focus on corruption, is a danger to run off-track.

Even the very well-intentioned calls for reducing the gap between poor and rich, is a topic people can and will manage to become divided over. Such a division will become a wedge that allows the main stream media and the two-man con to get a foot between the door, play us against eachother, divide and conquer.

But not corruption.

You can't seriously, publicly come out and speak in favour of corruption.

And I think that's the biggest thing we can address. Wikileaks and the like have given us enough pointers to find and pin down this corruption, so it is possible. Except we'll be going up against the banks (see Wikileaks' money problems) as well as most politicians: really I don't think they'll be courting to the OWS movement much as long as there's nobody else to vote for, they just have to get the levels equal, make it a really close 50/50 race, just like always, so nobody dares to vote for anything else, and then they'll be courting the lobbies and corporations again, like always.

Remember, the politicians have been corrupt themselves too, or at least supportive of this corruption, and even if they had no choice, they need to pay. Remember, we had no choice either, and we were made to pay. And by "pay" I just mean to remove them from power and take or burn their wrongfully gained riches. I never really see much use for vengeance. Though we could still eat them, maybe just a leg, or something.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 25, 2011, 03:45:00 PM
(Jesus buttfucking Christ, 6 replies all of a sudden.)

You don't often hear about police disobeying their superiors' orders. Seems encouraging.

Quote
New York Cops Defy Order to Arrest Hundreds of 'Occupy Albany' Protesters

"Governor 1%" Cuomo can't catch a break--after being protested by Occupy Wall Street last week, this week his own police force is refusing to arrest protesters in his backyard.

http://www.alternet.org/news/152854/new_york_cops_defy_order_to_arrest_hundreds_of_%E2%80%98occupy_albany%E2%80%99_protesters
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 25, 2011, 03:48:11 PM
I tend to agree with Cain here. But the problem isn't just one of internal American Policy anymore. And it goes farther than Wall Street. America seems to have far more faith in the Democratic process than we do in Europe. Wall St reforms might just come a little too late to do much good. The Horse has already bolted, and there are other Money Markets waiting in the wings to replace the Dollar as a universally acceptable Blue Chip Currency.

(And no, of course I don't mean the Euro)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 25, 2011, 06:22:55 PM
I did a lot of interviews (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30536.0) at Occupy Milwaukee and experienced the spirit of the event first hand.  The spirit is very strong, and I expect the movement to continue to gain momentum and numbers among it's proponents.  I have also been on the inside of the politically (and often religiously) conservative side of things for a very long time.  There has been a lot of counter propaganda coming from pulpits and water-cooler conversations.  I agree that an "anti-corruption" message focus will be the only really functional platform for the movement to push off from if it wants to maintain cohesion.  There is considerable common ground to be gained if the Occupy Movement can align it's self in a fashion that is parallel to similar sentiment on the right.  It must remain distinctively populist however.  The perception already well pushed on the right tries to mark the Occupy Movement as incoherent hippy-ism or some sort of socialist trick. 

From the interviews and casual un-recorded conversations I had at OMilwaukee I got the distinct impression that the social agendas of "Left & Right" were primarily absent among the Occupiers.  Most of the folks I talked to were there in an anti-corruption mentality.  Some of the organizers passing out leaflets and news rags were very cautious about the way the movement might be seen.  They are right to be concerned about not being taken seriously.  If the perception on the right can be shifted toward the sincerity of the movement and it's desire to enforce change upon shadowy financial and governmental institutions there may be an explosively powerful reaction that has the potential to propel the movement into a more effective second tier.  It may also just make a giant, jolly mess of things.   

In a VERY broad sense it's only been a few short years since the social and informational barriers really started to fall. The technology has truly punched holes in the walls of people's reality tunnels.  Things like Wikileaks and the Occupy Movement's precursors earlier this year have demonstrated the potential for this trend to really rattle, even break open the cages of the people and threaten the control of the established powers.  When the people at the top finally feel their control truly slipping I have no idea what the reaction will be.  I expect it to be either really intense or a dodge of monumental proportions meant to rely on the relative obscurity of the crimes committed.  I hope they try to dodge personally, security through obscurity is a fool's move in the modern world IMO. 

Quote from: Cramulus on October 25, 2011, 03:13:03 PM

Frankly, I consider it a win condition if they change the conversation about how things get better in America. In the last 10 years, we've gotten more jaded, cynical, and hopeless about things - the important thing IMO is that we get a new narrative about activism. We have to demonstrate that things can actually get better. Whether the OSW protests are visibly "successful" or not, they will set the stage and tone for American activism in the next decade or more.


This may sound optimistic, but I don't think it's entirely unrealistic.

I think this is exactly what's going to happen.  The swing back from this jaded worldview will, perhaps, take a similar amount of time.  The ability of people to just get together en masse in moments has changed the way protesting gets done.  It's changing the mechanics of politics.  The only way to retard the trend would be to somehow pull the plug on the entire internet.  Even the Elite can't afford that.  I hope it does not occur to them that they cannot afford not to.  If the corruption at the top can be fought or (Godis willing) reversed then the whole structure and people high and low will benefit. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 03:17:03 AM
Someone here will tell me I am crazy and all that shit, If I say that this can get real bad ugly (and not ugly in the sense of protesters getting gassed and beaten ((which in of itself is unspeakable))- more so the kind of ugly that a global revolution can have) right?

Please, there's one of yous out there that can say that this is paranoid nonsense (and why), right, please?

As it stands, the way it's looking we're fucked either way.


:|

The People need to live through this change. When the shit goes down. How many will know how to live without buying things?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on October 26, 2011, 04:18:27 AM
What the hell are you asking?  Please to use real sentence structure, it helps with communication.


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Epimetheus on October 26, 2011, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 03:17:03 AM
Someone here will tell me I am crazy and all that shit, If I say that this can get real bad ugly (and not ugly in the sense of protesters getting gassed and beaten ((which in of itself is unspeakable))- more so the kind of ugly that a global revolution can have) right?

Please, there's one of yous out there that can say that this is paranoid nonsense (and why), right, please?

As it stands, the way it's looking we're fucked either way.


:|

The People need to live through this change. When the shit goes down. How many will know how to live without buying things?



We're fucked.

The conditions of in what orifice we're fucked, in what position, and with or without lube hot sauce, are up in the air.

In other words, a global revolution would only make it more interesting. Not change the outcome, as far as the loudest (and soundest) minds here are concerned.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on October 26, 2011, 11:31:05 AM
Well, here's one thing they were chanting about down in Providence:

QuoteMillions of student loan borrowers will be eligible to lower their payments and consolidate their loans under a plan President Barack Obama intends to announce Wednesday, the White House said.

Obama will use his executive authority to provide student loan relief in two ways.

First, he will accelerate a measure passed by Congress that reduces the maximum repayment on student loans from 15 percent of discretionary income annually to 10 percent. The White House wants it to go into effect in 2012, instead of 2014. In addition, the White House says the remaining debt would be forgiven after 20 years, instead of 25. About 1.6 million borrowers could be affected.

Second, he will allow borrowers who have loans from both the Family Education Loan Program and a direct loan from the government to consolidate them into one loan. The consolidated loan would be up to a half percentage point less. This could affect 5.8 million more borrowers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45039424/#.Tqff_pua--U
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 26, 2011, 11:39:19 AM
Quote from: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 03:17:03 AM
Someone here will tell me I am crazy and all that shit, If I say that this can get real bad ugly (and not ugly in the sense of protesters getting gassed and beaten ((which in of itself is unspeakable))- more so the kind of ugly that a global revolution can have) right?

Please, there's one of yous out there that can say that this is paranoid nonsense (and why), right, please?

As it stands, the way it's looking we're fucked either way.


:|

The People need to live through this change. When the shit goes down. How many will know how to live without buying things?



Why do you think global revolution is likely? 

Also, why is protesters getting the beatdown and gassed "unspeakable"?  Sounds like every major protest in the last few years, over here at least.  Throw in some police agent provocateurs pretending to be anarchists and you've pretty much got the last decade of political protest summed up in a single sentence.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 02:29:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 26, 2011, 11:39:19 AM
Quote from: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 03:17:03 AM
Someone here will tell me I am crazy and all that shit, If I say that this can get real bad ugly (and not ugly in the sense of protesters getting gassed and beaten ((which in of itself is unspeakable))- more so the kind of ugly that a global revolution can have) right?

Please, there's one of yous out there that can say that this is paranoid nonsense (and why), right, please?

As it stands, the way it's looking we're fucked either way.


:|

The People need to live through this change. When the shit goes down. How many will know how to live without buying things?



Why do you think global revolution is likely? 

Also, why is protesters getting the beatdown and gassed "unspeakable"?  Sounds like every major protest in the last few years, over here at least.  Throw in some police agent provocateurs pretending to be anarchists and you've pretty much got the last decade of political protest summed up in a single sentence.


Global revolution is  (imo) not only likely but already has started. There are many countries around the world atm who are protesting/gathering/marching who are calling it 'occupy'. The 'occupy' is the common factor in all these protests. Also-Since the 'occupy' started in New York, (imo again) there have been more numbers in the usual protests that take place around the world. And I see these increasing as time goes on. And even the ones that are not protesting under the reason for solidarity or what not for 'the occupy movement' are out in more numbers as well. Europe is actually getting ready to march to Athens. The protesters are starting to unite.

When I said protesters being beaten and gassed, I did mean the ones all over the world. The states have not seen anything like what other countries' police forces are doing and have been doing for many years to these people. And it is unspeakable-because (imo) no human should be treated that way. Not when they are not being violent. You are right Cain, it has been going on for a while and it's not right.

So i guess what Im questioning is...If a global revolution is successful, what will the outcome be? Could it lead to a world order? Are we the protesters helping move forward this world order?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on October 26, 2011, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 03:17:03 AM
Someone here will tell me I am crazy and all that shit, If I say that this can get real bad ugly (and not ugly in the sense of protesters getting gassed and beaten ((which in of itself is unspeakable))- more so the kind of ugly that a global revolution can have) right?

Please, there's one of yous out there that can say that this is paranoid nonsense (and why), right, please?

As it stands, the way it's looking we're fucked either way.


:|

The People need to live through this change. When the shit goes down. How many will know how to live without buying things?



We're fucked.

The conditions of in what orifice we're fucked, in what position, and with or without lube hot sauce, are up in the air.

In other words, a global revolution would only make it more interesting. Not change the outcome, as far as the loudest (and soundest) minds here are concerned.

Yeah. We are fucked either way. Leading off topic here for a bit...why? Why the hell do we have to be fucked?
Over money and power. I just dont get, but maybe im not suppose to.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 26, 2011, 04:37:14 PM
Quote from: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 02:32:36 PM
Yeah. We are fucked either way. Leading off topic here for a bit...why? Why the hell do we have to be fucked?
Over money and power. I just dont get, but maybe im not suppose to.

Then you don't get humans as a species.


Quote from: masquerading on October 26, 2011, 02:29:25 PM

Global revolution is  (imo) not only likely but already has started. There are many countries around the world atm who are protesting/gathering/marching who are calling it 'occupy'. The 'occupy' is the common factor in all these protests. Also-Since the 'occupy' started in New York, (imo again) there have been more numbers in the usual protests that take place around the world. And I see these increasing as time goes on. And even the ones that are not protesting under the reason for solidarity or what not for 'the occupy movement' are out in more numbers as well. Europe is actually getting ready to march to Athens. The protesters are starting to unite.

When I said protesters being beaten and gassed, I did mean the ones all over the world. The states have not seen anything like what other countries' police forces are doing and have been doing for many years to these people. And it is unspeakable-because (imo) no human should be treated that way. Not when they are not being violent. You are right Cain, it has been going on for a while and it's not right.

So i guess what Im questioning is...If a global revolution is successful, what will the outcome be? Could it lead to a world order? Are we the protesters helping move forward this world order?


As to the bolded portion, I think you've got "order" and "disorder" mixed up there.


Allow me to engage in some very vague prophecy:

1) Shit will continue getting crazier.
2) The crazy will reach a crescendo, and the masses will decide to Do Something About It.
3) That Something will be to vote for whomever will be the most charismatic and persuasive schmucks who promise to fix the mess.
4) A bunch of slipshod, heavily compromised, "temporary" government policies will be enacted, sort of helping the situation but not as much as we'd like.
5) Everyone will calm down until The Next Big Fuckup.
6) Rinse, Repeat.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on October 26, 2011, 05:18:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QngE6kKk8Lg

People being tear gassed at Occupy Oakland.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 26, 2011, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on October 26, 2011, 05:18:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QngE6kKk8Lg

People being tear gassed at Occupy Oakland.

Not surprising.  Cops in Oakland are pretty brutal.  Sometimes for good reason (like when my h.s. cop friend who was shot and killed in a simple home pick-up when they were tracking down a parolee), but oftentimes not so very much.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 26, 2011, 08:42:34 PM
Nothing has happened in Oakland, everything is OK

(http://i.imgur.com/qCgqg.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 26, 2011, 10:06:07 PM
Awww...look at the pwetty kitty--that officer would surely NEVER hurt a fly!

...and is the caption slyly referring to the fact the protestors *couldn't* take their pets back home with them because they were evicted or they *wouldn't* because they're retarded shiftless hippies with so few responsibilities they leave their poor widdow kitties in the hands of the law?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 26, 2011, 10:31:23 PM
I like the assumption that the cat must have been left behind by the protesters. Couldn't possibly belong to a nearby business or home.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 26, 2011, 10:33:29 PM
Incidentally, http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/ was on the ground at Occupy Oakland, and well worth reading
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 26, 2011, 10:37:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 26, 2011, 10:33:29 PM
Incidentally, http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/ was on the ground at Occupy Oakland, and well worth reading

The interesting thing is that the more violence is used against protesters, the more it fuels awareness of the protest and the reasons behind it... and the more people join. I don't think this thing is going to end anytime soon.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 26, 2011, 10:43:16 PM
I'd call it the Barbara Streisand Effect, as applied to real life, only that would probably be called, in any historically aware part of the world, the Louis the VXI Effect.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 26, 2011, 11:42:12 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/oct/26/occupy-oakland-protests-live#block-5

QuoteThis video purports to show Oakland police using a flash bang grenade during the protests.

Police have said they did not use flash bang grenades to clear demonstrators, but some sort of explosive is clearly thrown into the crowd in the footage.

Quote12.52pm: This video shows a little more of the lead up from before a police officer throws an explosive device.

From around 30 seconds in, a figure lies prone on the floor infront of the police line, and it looks as if a crowd gathers in a bid to help them. It is then that the explosive device is thrown into the group by police.

The video then cuts to footage of the injured person being carried away, bleeding from a head wound.

Quote12.57pm: Indybay.org has pictures apparently of Scott Olsen, showing him lying on the floor and then being escorted away.

Jay Finneburg posted the pictures to Indybay. He wrote:

    This poor guy was right behind me when he was hit in the head with a police projectile. He went down hard and did not get up. The bright light in the second shot is from a flash-bang grenade that went off a few feet from us. He was eventually taken to highland hospital.

Further down the thread Aaron Hinde writes that the bleeding man is "a veteran and a member of iraq veterans against the war". Hinde adds that he is "in the hospital and stable but he has serious injuries, we will see how he is doing in the morning when he wakes up".

Later a Indybay user named Adele wrote: "I'm at highland [a hospital in Oakland] with Scott now. If ppl saw him get hit, know who brought him in to the hospital or know how to get in touch w his roommate or family, pls msg me. I can't confirm this at the moment."

I can't confirm these accounts at the moment, but am trying to get in touch with all three people who posted regarding Olsen.

1.30pm: Scott Olsen, the protester shown with head injuries, apparently after being hit in the head by a police projectile, has a skull fracture and is in a "serious, but stable condition", according to a fellow protester with him in hospital.

Adele Carpenter, who has known Olsen since July, said she was told by a doctor at Highland hospital, in Oakland, that Olsen "has a skull fracture".

Carpenter arrived at Highland hospital in Oakland at 11pm last night, and has been allowed to visit Olsen – a former US marine, who did two tours of Iraq – this morning, she said.

"I'm just absolutely devastated that someone who did two tours of Iraq and came home safely is now lying in a US hospital because of the domestic police force," Carpenter said.

She said Olsen moved to the Bay area in July. The former marine, 24, left the military in 2010. Olsen is originally from Wisconsin, Carpenter said, adding that his family have been informed about his condition. A "military buddy" is also on his way to visit Olsen in hospital.

Video footage shows Olsen lying prone on the ground in front of police lines. A crowd gathers in an apparent bid to help him, but then scatters when a police officer throws an explosive device into their midst.

2.24pm: I've just spoken to Keith Shannon, roommate of Scott Olsen, the Iraq veteran who is in hospital after apparently having been hit in the head by a police projectile.

Shannon said doctors told him Olsen has a "skull fracture and swelling of the brain". A neurosurgeon will assess Olsen later today to determine whether he needs surgery, Shannon said.

Olsen, 24, was in 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines, before leaving the military last year. He had been opposed to the Iraq war even before his first tour to the country, Shannon said. Shannon and Olsen met in November or December 2005, and share an apartment in Daly City, south of San Francisco.

"It's really hard," Shannon said. "I really wish I had gone out with him instead of staying home last night."

Shannon, who is also 24, said he had seen the video footage showing Olsen lying on the floor as a police officer throws an explosive device near him.

"It's terrible to go over to Iraq twice and come back injured, and then get injured by the police that are supposed to be protecting us," he said.

Shannon said Olsen was hit in the head by a tear gas canister or smoke canister shot by a police officer. He said Olsen had a curved scar on his forehead consistent with a canister

Protesters who had accompanied Olsen to Highland hospital got in touch with Shannon through Facebook, after Olsen said he lived with someone called "Keith". Shannon said he was told Olsen was unable to say his surname.

Olsen's parents, who live in Wisnconsin, have been told he is in hospital and were "probably going to fly out", Shannon said.

Both Olsen and Shannon are members of Iraq Veterans Against the War and Veterans for Peace, Shannon said. He added that Olsen had been opposed to the war in Iraq before his tours of duty. Olsen served in Iraq in 2006 and 2007.

3.10pm: Scott Olsen is in a "critical condition", in Highland hospital, a spokesman for the hospital has just confirmed to me.

(We already knew he was there from the accounts below, but this is the first official confirmation).

So, to sum up, the Oakland police shot an Iraq War veteran in the head with a teargas projectile, and then chuck flash-bang grenades into the crowd (which had appeared to protect him) and on top of the wounded man.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 26, 2011, 11:55:29 PM
Looks like people don't have a right to peaceful protest in the USA anymore, either.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 27, 2011, 12:01:26 AM
Sure they do, so long as they're Teabaggers.  They can bring automatic weapons to their protests and everything!

Seriously though, it is times like this I wish the Teabagger rhetoric about the hippies being closet-Marxists was true.  Karl Marx would know how to deal with this situation.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 12:06:57 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 27, 2011, 12:01:26 AM
Sure they do, so long as they're Teabaggers.  They can bring automatic weapons to their protests and everything!

Seriously though, it is times like this I wish the Teabagger rhetoric about the hippies being closet-Marxists was true.  Karl Marx would know how to deal with this situation.

Only because nobody takes Teabaggers seriously; not even the Oakland police.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 27, 2011, 12:16:09 AM
Perhaps, though I think it has just as much to do where, to use the Occupy parlance, the Teabaggers fall on the 99% vs 1% divide.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 12:27:00 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 27, 2011, 12:16:09 AM
Perhaps, though I think it has just as much to do where, to use the Occupy parlance, the Teabaggers fall on the 99% vs 1% divide.

Right; they are overwhelmingly 99% who support the 1%, and that's exactly what the powers-that-be want.

Speaking of which, that guy that Cram posted about, the spin doctor; I was thinking that what the Occupy protests could really use is for one of the super-rich guys like Warren Buffett, who sympathize, to hire that guy to manage the public spin on our behalf.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 27, 2011, 03:43:02 PM
The Oakland Police are practicing their favorite sport, EXTREME BRUTALITY

At the protest last night, a vet got shot, point blank, with rubber bullets. He hit the ground, collapsed into shock, and stopped moving. The crowd surged to grab him and pull him to safety, and the police fired cannisters of tear gas into the crowd.

As they carry the wounded guy away, he was unresponsive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ&feature=share




The police deny using rubber bullets and flashbangs. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/occupy-oakland-did-police-use-flashbangs-and-rubber-bullets-on-protesters/2011/10/26/gIQAL4pOJM_blog.html) But it's hard to win that misinformation battle when the protesters find rubber bullets and post videos of those weapons in use.

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/blogpost/201110/Images/rubberbul4.jpg?uuid=4LIRJv_uEeCbQPQuXmWr5Q)

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/blogpost/201110/Images/rubberphoto.jpg?uuid=UxwDLP_tEeCbQPQuXmWr5Q)

The Marine's name is Scott Olsen. He's seriously injured - his skull was fractured by a point-blank shot with a rubber bullet. He's stable though. http://www.veteransforpeace.org/news_detail.php?idx=123

The Occupy Oakland protest is about to explode.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 03:59:39 PM
Oakland won't take this sitting down, either.  Like I said--the cops there are fucking brutal, and partly for a reason.  Mostly because they are just THAT WAY.  And protests and mobs AIN'T something Oakland is afraid of.  Well, not the people living there, anyway.  They're like San Fran's bulldog linebacker older brother.  Head full of crazy and muscle to boot.

Now I'm wondering what is going on with the powers-that-be--if those cops are going to get a slap on the wrist or what.  I'm conjecturing slap.  If they even ACKNOWLEDGE what-all went down.  They can probably get away with obfuscation in Oakland whereas in SF, no way.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 27, 2011, 04:03:00 PM
I think it's crazy to say "We weren't using rubber bullets or flashbangs" when you were using them last night against a crowd of people armed only with cameras.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 04:04:32 PM
It shows a level of hubris you kinda gotta wonder where it came from, eh?  Probably GENERATIONS of being able to LIE to the public...?  And get away with it...?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 04:27:50 PM
Yes, I think they lie and then it blows over, and that's how it's been done for so long that they don't anticipate anything different.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on October 27, 2011, 04:35:50 PM
Ive already heard some of my right-wing friends spouting the line that "The protestersrioters were blocking the way of the cops. They had to disperse them with the flash band in order to get first-aid to the injured man."

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: kingyak on October 27, 2011, 04:57:55 PM
Interesting....

Oakland Mayor Now Supports the Occupy Movement, Orders "Minimal Police Presence" (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/686295/jean_quan%27s_about-face:_oakland_mayor_now_supports_the_occupy_movement,_orders_%22minimal_police_presence%22/)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 05:00:31 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on October 27, 2011, 04:35:50 PM
Ive already heard some of my right-wing friends spouting the line that "The protestersrioters were blocking the way of the cops. They had to disperse them with the flash band in order to get first-aid to the injured man."

:lulz:

ZOMG

People are so fucking stupid.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 05:02:37 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 27, 2011, 04:57:55 PM
Interesting....

Oakland Mayor Now Supports the Occupy Movement, Orders "Minimal Police Presence" (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/686295/jean_quan%27s_about-face:_oakland_mayor_now_supports_the_occupy_movement,_orders_%22minimal_police_presence%22/)

She (or her advisers) probably realized that this is the only way to prevent full-on rioting. I could almost feel Oakland's tension all the way up here. It's a spring wound too tight.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 05:08:33 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on October 27, 2011, 04:35:50 PM
Ive already heard some of my right-wing friends spouting the line that "The protestersrioters were blocking the way of the cops. They had to disperse them with the flash band in order to get first-aid to the injured man."

:lulz:

Your right-wing friends need a can of whoopass shoved...up their whoop-ass.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 27, 2011, 04:57:55 PM
Interesting....

Oakland Mayor Now Supports the Occupy Movement, Orders "Minimal Police Presence" (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/686295/jean_quan%27s_about-face:_oakland_mayor_now_supports_the_occupy_movement,_orders_%22minimal_police_presence%22/)

SOMEONE GOT A CALL FROM GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN.

I WONDER WHO THAT MIGHT BE?

2 GUESSES...READY...?  GO!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 27, 2011, 06:52:15 PM
Charles P. Pierce, Esquire's new politics blogger, has a great piece up on Oakland:

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/occupy-oakland-6530274

QuoteMake no mistake about it: The actions of the police department in Oakland last night were a military assault on a legitimate political demonstration. That it was a milder military assault than it could have been, which is to say it wasn't a massacre, is very much beside the point. There was no possible provocation that warranted this display of force. (Graffiti? Litter? Rodents? Is the Oakland PD now a SWAT team for the city's health department?) If you are a police department in this country in 2011, this is something you do because you have the power and the technology and the license from society to do it. This is a problem that has been brewing for a long time. It predates the Occupy movement for more than a decade. It even predates the "war on terror," although that has acted as what the arson squad would call an "accelerant" to the essential dynamic.

Basic law enforcement in this country is thoroughly, totally militarized. It is militarized at its most basic levels. (The "street crime units," so beloved by, among other people, the Diallo family.) It is militarized at its highest command positions. It is militarized in its tactics, and its weaponry and, most important of all, in the attitude of the officers themselves, and in how they are trained. There is a vast militarized intelligence apparatus that leads, inevitably, to pre-emptive military actions, like the raids on protest organizations that were carried out in advance of the 2008 Republican National Convention in Minneapolis. Sooner or later, this militarized law enforcement was going to collide head-on with a movement of mass public protest, and the results were going to be ugly. (There already had been dry runs elsewhere, most notably in Miami, in 2003, during protests of a meeting of trade ministers.)

Meet Oakland, Singapore-by-the-Bay. There will be more of these. Depend on it. After all, they have fans out there...

And why shouldn't the police be militarized? After all, we keep handing them "wars" to fight. A war on drugs. A war on terror. A war on graffiti. (Thanks, Rudy.) Wars are not properly fought with half-measures. Wars are fought over territory and wars are fought over power. You put enough war propaganda into the heads of young men, hand them weapons, and give them a license to use them, and they are not going to see fellow citizens through the visors on their helmets. They are going to see enemies. Wars have enemies. In Oakland last night, the police took action against enemies...

It's time for the country to realize that something is dangerously out of control here, and that it's not a bunch of people in sleeping bags in the public parks. There is a tradition of public protest in this country. Hell, this country is itself an act of public protest. Preserve that, or preserve nothing else, because there's nothing else worth preserving. Police officers are public servants. They are not soldiers, facing down enemies. This is not a war. This is America.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 07:03:04 PM
That youtube Hawk linked earlier comes to mind--the Iraq war vet shouting "THERE'S NO HONOR IN TREATING US CITIZENS LIKE THIS--GO TO AFGHANISTAN IF YOU WANT TO SHOOT SOMEONE" comes to mind...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 08:10:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 27, 2011, 06:52:15 PM
Charles P. Pierce, Esquire's new politics blogger, has a great piece up on Oakland:

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/occupy-oakland-6530274

QuoteMake no mistake about it: The actions of the police department in Oakland last night were a military assault on a legitimate political demonstration. That it was a milder military assault than it could have been, which is to say it wasn't a massacre, is very much beside the point. There was no possible provocation that warranted this display of force. (Graffiti? Litter? Rodents? Is the Oakland PD now a SWAT team for the city's health department?) If you are a police department in this country in 2011, this is something you do because you have the power and the technology and the license from society to do it. This is a problem that has been brewing for a long time. It predates the Occupy movement for more than a decade. It even predates the "war on terror," although that has acted as what the arson squad would call an "accelerant" to the essential dynamic.

Basic law enforcement in this country is thoroughly, totally militarized. It is militarized at its most basic levels. (The "street crime units," so beloved by, among other people, the Diallo family.) It is militarized at its highest command positions. It is militarized in its tactics, and its weaponry and, most important of all, in the attitude of the officers themselves, and in how they are trained. There is a vast militarized intelligence apparatus that leads, inevitably, to pre-emptive military actions, like the raids on protest organizations that were carried out in advance of the 2008 Republican National Convention in Minneapolis. Sooner or later, this militarized law enforcement was going to collide head-on with a movement of mass public protest, and the results were going to be ugly. (There already had been dry runs elsewhere, most notably in Miami, in 2003, during protests of a meeting of trade ministers.)

Meet Oakland, Singapore-by-the-Bay. There will be more of these. Depend on it. After all, they have fans out there...

And why shouldn't the police be militarized? After all, we keep handing them "wars" to fight. A war on drugs. A war on terror. A war on graffiti. (Thanks, Rudy.) Wars are not properly fought with half-measures. Wars are fought over territory and wars are fought over power. You put enough war propaganda into the heads of young men, hand them weapons, and give them a license to use them, and they are not going to see fellow citizens through the visors on their helmets. They are going to see enemies. Wars have enemies. In Oakland last night, the police took action against enemies...

It's time for the country to realize that something is dangerously out of control here, and that it's not a bunch of people in sleeping bags in the public parks. There is a tradition of public protest in this country. Hell, this country is itself an act of public protest. Preserve that, or preserve nothing else, because there's nothing else worth preserving. Police officers are public servants. They are not soldiers, facing down enemies. This is not a war. This is America.

Really well-said. Gonna go link that article around a bit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 27, 2011, 08:48:40 PM
It would seem that the Occupy folks have gotten cash bombed a bit.  $500,000 in donations has come in, and the first major returns on news from Google seem to be spinning it as a point of contention.

Occupy Wall Street Fund Distribution Causes Strain Among Protesters from Yahoo.com (http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-wall-street-fund-distribution-causes-strain-among-152228634.html)
A little something about in-fighting from BigGovernment.com (http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/10/23/occupyanimalfarm-fights-over-money-splintering-occupywallst/)
Something almost exactly the same for several paragraphs as the above from NYPost.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/they_want_lice_of_the_occu_pie_9xKCxcI4aectFYkafMb8UJ)
Something from DailyMail.co.uk that reads differently and has better pictures, yet tells similar stories. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052557/Occupy-Wall-Street-Is-end-Protesters-squabble-500-000.html)
Some copy from Foxnews.com that has similar opening lines to the article from the UK (http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/10/24/end-occupy-wall-street-protesters-squabble-over-500000-cold-weather-sets)
And a bit from the Wall Street Journallinked to from a different fox news article on the same subject, but 2 from Fox would be way too much (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203687504577000320434317092.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#articleTabs%3Darticle&mg=com-wsj)

Reading through these got creepy for me.  I mean, some of these literally say the same thing with different attribution.  I think it's great that Occupy got cash sent their way!  They will either adapt and become a more efficient organization or fall to in-fighting... maybe.  Guess we'll find out faster if even more cash comes in.  Wish I had such problems.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 09:48:32 PM
Maybe now the Occupy movement is getting "Too Big Too Fail"?  Or just too big for its britches?  I think it's hilarious that this once-ad-hoc movement is now requiring folks to "fill out paperwork" to get the money donated to them.

In a way, it's awesome, in a way, it's ookook sad.  Either way, yes, I'm glad they have $ to help them eat etc.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 27, 2011, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 09:48:32 PM
Maybe now the Occupy movement is getting "Too Big Too Fail"?  Or just too big for its britches?  I think it's hilarious that this once-ad-hoc movement is now requiring folks to "fill out paperwork" to get the money donated to them.

In a way, it's awesome, in a way, it's ookook sad.  Either way, yes, I'm glad they have $ to help them eat etc.

How else do you do it? Just give money to whoever asks for it?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on October 27, 2011, 11:12:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 27, 2011, 05:00:31 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on October 27, 2011, 04:35:50 PM
Ive already heard some of my right-wing friends spouting the line that "The protestersrioters were blocking the way of the cops. They had to disperse them with the flash band in order to get first-aid to the injured man."

:lulz:

ZOMG

People are so fucking stupid.

In all honesty the "in between the police and the injured" line Ive only heard from a single Tea Bagger type that I know IRL and a few online. But the idea that there was some kind of riot Ive heard quite a bit.

Im not sure if its honest disinfo, or if people just hear "Cops Clash with Protestors" and assume it was a riot.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 27, 2011, 11:56:59 PM
It is probably naiveness, as much as anything.

"It's not like the cops go around starting fights or anything...obviously the protestors must be responsible."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on October 28, 2011, 01:33:26 AM
Just have a quick note about that mayor of Oakland.

She most likely retracted her first release due to the some that posted a reply to it on her FB page.
:)

13,130 some to be exact.

OH yeah--- Here is her page btw.
hxxps://www.facebook.com/MayorJeanQuan

:)

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 28, 2011, 06:12:23 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 27, 2011, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Jenne on October 27, 2011, 09:48:32 PM
Maybe now the Occupy movement is getting "Too Big Too Fail"?  Or just too big for its britches?  I think it's hilarious that this once-ad-hoc movement is now requiring folks to "fill out paperwork" to get the money donated to them.

In a way, it's awesome, in a way, it's ookook sad.  Either way, yes, I'm glad they have $ to help them eat etc.

How else do you do it? Just give money to whoever asks for it?



Good question--but it still makes me laugh.  Because I think this movement's bigger than the Tea Party movement, and it has bigger teeth since it's not corporate-sponsored, either.  It gets shit on for being unorganized, but here we have an example of how order is definitely following chaos straight into organization...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Suu on October 28, 2011, 06:16:34 PM
Occupy Providence just pissed me off again.

Why?

They're always out peddling for handouts and donations.............and then turn around and then announce they are having drum workshops in the park they're occupying, instead of actually performing any sort of activism. All the drums do is make noise and piss people off, which, when they get threatened to get kicked out again and blow a huge fit, they should understand why. You're supposed to be protesting, not reenacting Burning Man.

Reports have also come in that RISD students have taken residence and are using the movement at a "living art project", in which these little trustafarian shitnecks who pay $50k a year to never have a job in their lives still go to class on a daily basis and eat at the dining hall. Again, doing it wrong.

Why the fuck does Providence do everything backwards?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on October 28, 2011, 06:31:54 PM
The drum circles are utterly insufferable.

Do you see now, why I wish the American left really were Marxists?  They'd be waving Kalashnikovs all over the place, and attempting to storm the state capital and occupy the banks.

Armed insurrection is always preferable to drum circles.  No exception.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Suu on October 28, 2011, 06:36:09 PM
They're not even GOOD at it! I could walk in with my djembe and lay a proverbial smackdown of doum, tek, and ka, and I'm in no way shape or form an awesome hand drummer.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on October 28, 2011, 06:40:40 PM
I don't think there's any such thing as an awesome hand drummer.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 28, 2011, 06:59:27 PM
Quote from: Suu on October 28, 2011, 06:16:34 PM
Occupy Providence just pissed me off again.

Why?

They're always out peddling for handouts and donations.............and then turn around and then announce they are having drum workshops in the park they're occupying, instead of actually performing any sort of activism. All the drums do is make noise and piss people off, which, when they get threatened to get kicked out again and blow a huge fit, they should understand why. You're supposed to be protesting, not reenacting Burning Man.

the drum circles suck, they give Occupy's detractors something to point at and go "See, they don't have a point, they're just hippies!"

LUCKILY, our right to assemble doesn't have any qualifiers like "you have the freedom to assemble between business hours, as long as your protest is quiet and inoffensive and you have a sad look on your face." The Assembly itself is the activism, the activities they do there are mainly to keep spirits up. It's gonna be a long winter.

QuoteReports have also come in that RISD students have taken residence and are using the movement at a "living art project", in which these little trustafarian shitnecks who pay $50k a year to never have a job in their lives still go to class on a daily basis and eat at the dining hall. Again, doing it wrong.

RISD's expensive, but their art degree doesn't mean you'll never have to work. These kids are looking at a dire job market and grim prospects for repaying that $50K per year. Student loans are in dire need of reform. I'm glad the kids are are getting out and participating.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Suu on October 28, 2011, 07:15:05 PM
No, RISD kids come from wealthy backgrounds, bitch about working when they HAVE jobs to "keep them busy", bitch about their classes and how their professors "don't get their art", and are no-tip motherfuckers. When I applied to go there, I got in, but I was sneered at when I inquired about financial aid, especially when I was flat told, "Well, federal loans will not cover your entire tuition cost, you know..."  It's a school for rockstar primadonnas with good portfolios, not hard working artists. They did the same shit when we had a Tent City under the 195 overpass a few years ago prior to the I-Way taking it down. They got nice expensive Coleman tents and moved in over there as an "living art project".

Emulating poverty and struggle in society is not art. It's an insult.

Out of the majority of the students I have encountered who current go there or have within the past couple of years, I've met TWO that were genuine, hardworking students who were hellbent on getting into their fields.

And I can guarantee I'll be first in line when it comes to lobbying for student loan reform. Please.


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 28, 2011, 07:32:55 PM
That's a pretty broad brush - the kids I know who went to RISD got shitty jobs in graphic design and are still struggling to pay their loans. And who cares if they're from a rich background? This thing isn't just for destitute unemployed people.

I haven't seen anything about the RISD art installations, but generally speaking, I strongly support art which tries to communicate what's going on with this movement. If you want to change things, and that's your skill set, this is really the optimal position to be standing. Most art students only make art for other people at their university, it's like screaming into an echo chamber. At least now they're sending their signal from the heart of what's going on, right where everybody's looking. :shrug:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Suu on October 28, 2011, 08:12:29 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad this movement took off the way that it did, but I'll be even more impressed if they manage to survive the winter, which, if last night's weather was any indication, is going to be really fucking bad this year.

I just don't agree with some of their tactics. The drums and public disturbance has got to go. Waking people up at 2am to "get your message across" and to "draw attention to yourselves" is the wrong idea, and, speaking as someone who has worked for both television and print media, bad press is bad press. If you're goal is to get press coverage, do so in a way to make the public support you, not go, "Ew, those smelly hippies are pissing in the streets and playing drums all night."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on October 28, 2011, 09:05:08 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on October 28, 2011, 06:40:40 PM
I don't think there's any such thing as an awesome hand drummer.



:lmnuendo:

but sad one...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on October 28, 2011, 11:57:04 PM
Does anyone know if Santa has been sighted at any of the occupy wall street goings on?  I know this is probably his busy time of year, but I bet he has a lot of interest in this movement.  I heard some talk of layoffs at the north pole
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 29, 2011, 12:21:12 AM
Quote from: rong on October 28, 2011, 11:57:04 PM
Does anyone know if Santa has been sighted at any of the occupy wall street goings on?  I know this is probably his busy time of year, but I bet he has a lot of interest in this movement.  I heard some talk of layoffs at the north pole

I'm guessing that Santacon will add a dimension to Occupy. Especially Pantsless Santa.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on October 29, 2011, 12:42:48 AM
 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: yesssssssssssss I can't wait to see what signs santacon brings


also,





something I've been thinking about


if I could just continue that starry-eyed optimistic chord for a moment:


Even after this thing ends, there will be a global brotherhood of occupiers.

      &
If this protest lasts through the winter,
the campers will have become the
best of friends forever.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 29, 2011, 01:38:55 AM
Jonah Goldberg has an interesting article up on the National Review titled, OWS Needs a Republican President (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/281504/ows-needs-republican-president-jonah-goldberg) where he cites Immortal Technique, makes a few good points, and concludes voting Republican is a suitable punishment for the Democrats.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 29, 2011, 01:55:10 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 29, 2011, 12:42:48 AM
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: yesssssssssssss I can't wait to see what signs santacon brings


also,





something I've been thinking about


if I could just continue that starry-eyed optimistic chord for a moment:


Even after this thing ends, there will be a global brotherhood of occupiers.

      &
If this protest lasts through the winter,
the campers will have become the
best of friends forever.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s2zXhSoT98E/TgqMN9kslKI/AAAAAAAABRE/TGAJpeY1zPI/s1600/ponies-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 30, 2011, 01:32:47 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 10, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
I think the best thing the Occupy movement could do is avoid standing behind a clearly stated goal or demand. The reason the press and politicians are so vocal about mocking/decrying them for their lack of a message is that lack is extremely threatening, in that it opens the movement to anyone who's dissatisfied. Which is nearly everyone.

THIS.

The more, the merrier.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on October 30, 2011, 05:17:19 AM
I am almost ready to give up on this whole Occupy thing.  Between the tactics used by the opposition to paint us all as fools, and the willingness of so many extremists that have attached themselves and their agendas to the cause to grab all of the media attention and use it to make us all look like fools and clowns, I honestly don't see how those of us that are not there just to join the crowd and fight with cops can push past all of the bullshit.

I've seen people blatantly start fights with the police, get arrested as they should, and watched the vast majority of the occupy crowd surrounding them scream FUCK THE POLICE and POLICE BRUTALITY and all other sorts of ridiculous bullshit at them for it.  I have no doubt that at many of these things such as Oakland the police overstepped their authority, but when people scream POLICE BRUTALITY at every instance of the police doing their job, it makes legitimate claims go unnoticed, and makes the movement as a whole look retarded.

There are a lot more things I've been seeing that cause me to feel this way as well, but the bottom line is, the incredible amount of stupid people with all the attention in the Occupy Movement are making me question my own support of what is, underneath the BS, a worthy cause.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 30, 2011, 05:45:00 AM
Quote from: trix on October 30, 2011, 05:17:19 AM
I am almost ready to give up on this whole Occupy thing.  Between the tactics used by the opposition to paint us all as fools, and the willingness of so many extremists that have attached themselves and their agendas to the cause to grab all of the media attention and use it to make us all look like fools and clowns, I honestly don't see how those of us that are not there just to join the crowd and fight with cops can push past all of the bullshit.

I've seen people blatantly start fights with the police, get arrested as they should, and watched the vast majority of the occupy crowd surrounding them scream FUCK THE POLICE and POLICE BRUTALITY and all other sorts of ridiculous bullshit at them for it.  I have no doubt that at many of these things such as Oakland the police overstepped their authority, but when people scream POLICE BRUTALITY at every instance of the police doing their job, it makes legitimate claims go unnoticed, and makes the movement as a whole look retarded.

There are a lot more things I've been seeing that cause me to feel this way as well, but the bottom line is, the incredible amount of stupid people with all the attention in the Occupy Movement are making me question my own support of what is, underneath the BS, a worthy cause.

Thoughts?

Keep in mind that each city's version of Occupy has a different basic nature, and that you can simply ignore your city's main encampment and organize on your own.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 30, 2011, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: trix on October 30, 2011, 05:17:19 AM
I am almost ready to give up on this whole Occupy thing.  Between the tactics used by the opposition to paint us all as fools, and the willingness of so many extremists that have attached themselves and their agendas to the cause to grab all of the media attention and use it to make us all look like fools and clowns, I honestly don't see how those of us that are not there just to join the crowd and fight with cops can push past all of the bullshit.

I've seen people blatantly start fights with the police, get arrested as they should, and watched the vast majority of the occupy crowd surrounding them scream FUCK THE POLICE and POLICE BRUTALITY and all other sorts of ridiculous bullshit at them for it.  I have no doubt that at many of these things such as Oakland the police overstepped their authority, but when people scream POLICE BRUTALITY at every instance of the police doing their job, it makes legitimate claims go unnoticed, and makes the movement as a whole look retarded.

There are a lot more things I've been seeing that cause me to feel this way as well, but the bottom line is, the incredible amount of stupid people with all the attention in the Occupy Movement are making me question my own support of what is, underneath the BS, a worthy cause.

Thoughts?

A few Trix.

Several of the organizers (or at least the more organized Occupiers) that I spoke to were consistently voicing concerns about the image of the movement and whether it would be taken seriously or not.  This seems to be a thememe running all over the movement.  I think that this may be the least of things that the Occupiers need to focus on.  All the Occupiers need to do for now is persist, and recruit.  Let the little brush-fires and embarrassing stories happen. They will happen no matter what. The appearance of incompetence can be an incredible asset if backed up by actual resolve and competence.  To me this is best demonstrated by sheer durability right now.  If the Occupy Movement comes out of this winter intact I believe it will grow much stronger again over the spring.

Quote from: Nigel on October 30, 2011, 05:45:00 AM
Keep in mind that each city's version of Occupy has a different basic nature, and that you can simply ignore your city's main encampment and organize on your own.

Listen to what Nigel's saying here Trix.  This means that even if a sector where something truly stupid and counter-productive happened were disbanded for some reason there's still the ability to re-assemble, and choose the ground on which to do so.  It's Sun Tzu's wet dream.  The Occupy Movement is formless, draws it's resources from it's environment, and wins without fighting.  Let the police lay siege and the media play spin the battle.  The resources used in these shenanigans vastly outweigh the costs to the Occupiers in terms of cash.  The primary cost to the Occupiers involves creativity and determination.  These are difficult to purchase.

I'm not going to encourage you to "Fight the good fight, RAHH!"  There are an unlimited number of idiots in the world.  If you feel frustrated by what you see then I'd say take a break and focus on what you need to for your life.  If they're gonna win this they'll still be there when you are ready to get back into itRep for Eris and start some shit.  :p
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 30, 2011, 10:25:49 PM
Notes From Jamison Square

Version with pics and links here. (http://laughinjude.com/2011/10/notes-from-jamison-square/)

There were 27 arrests at Jamison Square in Portland's Pearl District last night. Yours truly wasn't one of them, but I did spend some time at the park before the police moved in. Here's my understanding of what happened.

A splinter group (I'm told 13 individuals strong at the beginning), perhaps frustrated at a perceived lack of action on behalf of the greater Occupy Portland movement, decided to take up residence in a new location: Jamison Square, a small park in the Pearl District of northwest Portland. This was the major topic of discussion at the general assembly last night, and after talking over the options, a spur-of-the-moment consensus was reached at around 9pm: we would move the GA to Jamison Square so the splinter group could be part of the discussion and add their voices to any conversation we had about the matter.

The mainstream news vans were already parked along the south edge of Jamison Square when I got there, perched like vultures waiting for the corpses to drop. The police seemed to enforce a bit of a double-standard once the 12:01am curfew passed–the mainstream media was allowed (for a time) to remain in Jamison Square proper, while members of the independent media, including the official Occupy Portland livestream, were told they had to stand behind a line of trees; the combination of darkness and distance made it harder to make out what was happening in the park over the low definition live feed from the webcam. "Shenanigans," I heard the cameraman from the live feed say, and I had to agree.

Eventually the mainstream media was forced to move back as well, and there was some consternation over the fact that they turned off their lights (and possibly cameras) as the police began to bring in reinforcements around 12:30am. Was this a conscious decision on the various news channels' parts to enforce media censorship, or simple conservation of electricity in the face of needing energy for the hours of what was coming? It's hard to say, but it certainly rubbed me the wrong way and made me a bit suspicious. The majority of the mainstream media has been pretty poor at keeping objectivity in their reporting of the Occupy movement thus far, and I'm not willing at this point to cut them much slack.

The police, too, had already made their presence felt by the time I arrived at Jamison Square. There were mounted police (who, let's face it, serve little purpose at a function like this outside their use for propaganda and intimidation) and park rangers. The livestream caught footage of a sniper on a rooftop at one point, though apparently s/he moved either down or out of sight as the evening waned. Portland mayor Sam Adams made an appearance just a bit after the 12am curfew, though he claimed he was only present to observe and had little to do with the decision to break up the protest (though if it wasn't his decision, whose was it?). A few protestors made cursory attempts to speak with the police and attempt to dissuade them from making arrests, citing the refusal of other officers to arrest protestors at Occupy Albany, though these arguments fell on ears that were, if not deaf, apparently uninterested.

At about 12:50am, a loud and obviously inebriated man entered the park and began shouting at the protestors, telling them that they were breaking the law. It didn't seem to occur to him that he was not only breaking the 12am curfew but also drunk and disorderly. I have no idea whether the police bothered to arrest him or not; they may have saved all the room in their squad cars for the people trying to exercise their First Amendment rights.

For their parts, the protestors walked and chanted but offered no resistance to arrest when the police cruisers and mounted officers moved in a few minutes after 1am. "We're going to have to be like Gandhi going Super Saiyan," I'd heard one of the protestors say earlier, and while I'm not sure I'd make the comparison based on what happened last night, per usual, the Occupy movement held up its end of the non-violence bargain. Perhaps thinking on the recent example of the police violence against Occupy Oakland, the state response didn't seem particularly brutal (beyond the legalized-kidnapping-and-caging-of-a-human-being-like-an-animal-under-threat-of-legalized-assault that passes for arrest), but word is they did leave horse dung all over the park.

I've written a bit before about the search for meaning in this movement and the importance that symbols will have to Occupy as the movement grows. I saw both factors at work here, as well as another that I've been meaning to write more on–the idea of the Occupy movement as a social networking platform in the offline world, a place where people can come together to have rational, adult discussions about why and how America has crashed and burned so spectacularly over the course of the past few decades (or, one could argue from a broader historical perspective, century). Was last night's occupation of Jamison Square meaningful to the movement as a whole? I can't say that it was from my own perspective, at least not in an immediate sense, but I understand the need that other Occupiers feel for a symbolic victory.

There may be a sense that Occupy Portland has stagnated a bit the past few weeks, and talking to people at both the GA and the square last night left me with the impression that people are ready to do something besides sit in meetings and hold marches. It says a lot to me about the dedication and self-control of the Occupiers that they held a peaceful demonstration last night in the face of that frustration; that said, I'm not sure walking in circles in the dark and letting the police put your fingerprints in a database is the "something" that needs to be done. Those who were arrested have my support–I'm just not sure that this was the symbol we needed at the moment. It's important to let the world know this movement has teeth, yes, but let's choose where, when and how we bite with a taste for the meal still to come instead of filling up on empty calories.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on October 30, 2011, 10:31:21 PM
For the second night in a row, protesters in Nashville were arrested and immediately released by a night court judge.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/archives/2011/10/29/night-court-magistrate-throws-the-book-at-haslam-troopers-over-occupy-nashville-arrests

Night Court Magistrate Throws the Book at Haslam, Troopers Over Occupy Nashville Arrests
Posted by Jim Ridley on Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 4:47 AM

"It's not every day you get to see a night court magistrate smack down the governor of Tennessee," a legal observer said outside the Metro Courthouse at 2:30 a.m. today, as fog shrouded downtown in mist.

Yet that's what happened in the early morning hours, as Metro Night Court Judge Tom Nelson told the troopers who arrested 25 peaceful Occupy Nashville protesters at midnight on Legislative Plaza — along with Scene reporter Jonathan Meador, who was attempting to get off the plaza when he was cuffed and hauled off — that the curfew being enforced at the Capitol had no constitutional grounds whatsoever.

"I have reviewed the regulations of the state of Tennessee, and I can find no authority anywhere for anyone to authorize a curfew anywhere on Legislative Plaza," Judge Nelson told a grimacing trooper, before ordering the immediate release of everyone arrested.

Some 30 additional protesters greeted those released with cheers and chants of "This is how democracy works!" They were last seen at 4 a.m. marching victoriously up Deaderick Street — back to Legislative Plaza.

Meador, meanwhile, greeted news of his imminent release with a tweet from custody: "Can I go home now?" His request of a ride home from Gov. Haslam for the inconvenience was met with silence.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 30, 2011, 11:35:57 PM
Seems to be kicking right off in NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v-26TERHsmA#!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on October 31, 2011, 12:55:11 AM
Here it is gentlemen, the official right wing response to this:

http://the53.tumblr.com/

Apparently 53% of the country are rugged individualists who are being leeched off of by the other 47%.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/ixt3wl.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on October 31, 2011, 02:07:51 AM
I am up to my eyeballs in debt trying to keep my head above water because the system is stacked against me by the sociopaths at the top and I see nothing wrong with this: I am the 53%!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 31, 2011, 04:12:35 AM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on October 31, 2011, 02:07:51 AM
I am up to my eyeballs in debt trying to keep my head above water because the system is stacked against me by the sociopaths at the top and I see nothing wrong with this: I am the 53%!

:mittens:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on October 31, 2011, 08:14:13 AM
only on page six but I've rather enjoyed occupt seattle, offering support to their nightly general assemblys. While the mayor gets it, he off course is merely just trying to get relected when Nickles runs again next time. We just moved up to the college so I've been able to visit the internets again. To counter the influnce of Zeistards (venus project is so pagan :lulz:) who seem to be on a serious destrustive trip, I made an erisian working group so my team might be visiting this thread.

I've been thinking of quitting my job and moving to port townsend & starting a church with my retirement check. Anyways a lot on the forum to catch up on.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 31, 2011, 08:43:48 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on October 31, 2011, 08:14:13 AM

I've been thinking of quitting my job and moving to port townsend & starting a church with my retirement check. Anyways a lot on the forum to catch up on.
A Church? Are you now washed in the blood of the Lamb, Pastor Yatto?  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on October 31, 2011, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 31, 2011, 08:43:48 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on October 31, 2011, 08:14:13 AM

I've been thinking of quitting my job and moving to port townsend & starting a church with my retirement check. Anyways a lot on the forum to catch up on.
A Church? Are you now washed in the blood of the Lamb, Pastor Yatto?  :lulz:

I think he was referring to a Discordian church, not one of the Christian mythology.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on October 31, 2011, 06:25:19 PM
Can't it be both :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 31, 2011, 06:46:12 PM
Overheard the other night at Occupy Portland, "The last thing that Jesus would do is redistribute wealth to the poor."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 31, 2011, 06:47:28 PM
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 06:46:12 PM
Overheard the other night at Occupy Portland, "The last thing that Jesus would do is redistribute wealth to the poor."

Fucking hell.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 31, 2011, 06:51:37 PM
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 06:46:12 PM
Overheard the other night at Occupy Portland, "The last thing that Jesus would do is redistribute wealth to the poor."

Nope, he wouldn't... of course, he would chase the Bankers, Preachers, Fox News Anchors and Senators down with a whip... at least those that keep claiming that they act like him.

Jesus actually told people to give their money to the poor:

Quote"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

"When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 31, 2011, 07:01:31 PM
WWJD?

Put on a show and make big promises, then not call back for like 2000 years.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on October 31, 2011, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 06:47:28 PM
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 06:46:12 PM
Overheard the other night at Occupy Portland, "The last thing that Jesus would do is redistribute wealth to the poor."

Fucking hell.

Sarcasm, of course.

I laughed my ass off.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on October 31, 2011, 07:49:51 PM
A pilgrimage might be rather fun way to visit portland enmass...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 31, 2011, 08:37:21 PM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on October 31, 2011, 06:25:19 PM
Can't it be both :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

:lulz:
Now that's exactly the right answer! It not only could be both, it should be both. And a whole bunch of other crazy shit too!

Like this!
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x285/skeyes_2007/david-icke-2.jpg)
and this
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/600full-kanye-west.jpg)(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/Temple/00057DC8-20C7-14B4-A0C783414B7F0000_1.gif)

this too,
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/active%20ones/BONO-2.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/lol%20jesus%20etc/825horse_in_bed.jpg)(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/active%20ones/snail_by_luchkina.gif)
Crazier the better!
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/active%20ones/wtf_pictures-spideytigger.jpg)
:hitlerbanjo: (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/Riots/burntcar.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/Temple/HawkwindCovers6.gif)
Gettin' a bit carried away. Scratch Bono. He's far too 'Christly'.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 31, 2011, 08:58:44 PM
It looks like the occupation is more or less continuing. Now, had they not released a list of demands, the combination of that and just squatting in tents and protesting for several months (through the winter, preferably, in those places that have winters) would be both impressive and fairly original by protest standards.

I read a Rushkoff article wherein he compares it to a long-term TAZ. At the very least, most of these are turning into minimally sustaintable microcommunities in the middle of urban areas, with their own governments and public utilities. If they end up being more than minimally sustainable, grow some sort of economy of their own, get public utilities better than portopotties and boxes of donated books, and last for a few years we could call them urban communes and have anthropologists study them.

Occupy New Haven (a bit of a latecomer) is still going strong and the tent city is populated last I checked, despite the 25F temperature and the snow. And, hell, a good portion of their signs are about chemtrails. So, maybe the other occupy movements have a chance to last through the winter.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 31, 2011, 09:05:17 PM
When did they release a list of demands?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on October 31, 2011, 09:14:09 PM
The protests at Greenham Common Airbase went on for Years. The site became a functioning TAZ the magnitude of which we've not seen here since we were a Nation of little Saxon Kingdoms.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 31, 2011, 10:37:52 PM
Given the international copycat protests, I could see a kind of franchise microculture popping up if we can keep it going long enough. That alone is a good reason to support this.

I wasn't aware of the Greenham Commons Airbase protests. The only thing  was able to compare this to is Christiania.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on November 01, 2011, 05:34:47 AM
I have it on fairly good authority that there were never any Nuclear weapons at Greenham at all.  Just Cruise Missiles with conventional warheads. But the Authorities tolerated the Protesters to add gravitas to the implied threat of a Nuclear strike to keep the Soviets on their toes. And while they focused on Britain, the Americans were flying over Soviet Airspace on a daily basis with impunity in their U2's. Which really did have nuclear capability.
The Occupy thing could be a similar false flag operation. So while everyone's eyes are on the Financial centres of the World, there will be some horrendous Military Operation just coming up to the boil.
In Yemen perhaps, or Somalia, or the Sudan. China are too quiet for my liking. They have big mineral interests in Africa. How would they react to an American/UN aggressor threatening the stability of their African investments? How could that be met by the US, other than by making concessions? Would those concessions mean more stability in the Worlds Markets? Or War between two Superpowers?  #

All that's pretty much out of our hands, so I'm all for burning (In a purely metaphorical way) the Financial Pirate's Institutions to the ground, while we are still not under armed curfew. Passive resistance where appropriate. Fighting them back where there is no other option available. At least we may be able to take back the Streets. Loosen the manically tightening stranglehold that the Oligarch's 'peacekeepers' seem too ready to enforce. Someone has to say actually say "No", and stick to their guns no matter what their respective State throws at them. Like the little Chinese fella in Tiannamon Square. OK, those Tanks rolled over them anyway, but it was a powerful image that helped to bring China into the same Century as the rest of us.
We can no longer allow our leaders to lie, cheat and collude with Corporate interests. No longer let them rob, tax and legislate all our freedoms away, or embroil us in Wars that profit only their Corporate Oligarch Masters. THEY ARE ALL LIARS.. We know this. Yet still we allow them their privileges, their immunity to any serious prosecution. Their control of the money markets. The Judiciary. And the Media.

Grease that butthole up good and slippery now, they're coming back for another go, and this time, they will not be so cautious.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 01, 2011, 07:02:39 AM
Oakland and NYC protests have undercover police joining in the protests.

I am shocked.  Really.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on November 01, 2011, 08:14:59 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on October 31, 2011, 06:25:19 PM
Can't it be both :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

:lulz:

Actually reading the Bible now. Just read where 'in those days Israel had no king, and people did as they thought was best.'
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on November 01, 2011, 08:58:53 AM
Sedition can only go so far?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BadBeast on November 01, 2011, 12:20:30 PM
Sedition doesn't go far enough.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 01, 2011, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on October 09, 2011, 06:02:15 PM
When I first started hearing about objections to the Occupy protests, the imediatly reminded me of that fallacious argument Dawkins used at that conference to belittle a woman harassed at night in an elevator.

I think, because I'm seeing this everywhere, it needs a name, so I'm going to start calling it the argumentum ad oblitum, or more simply the Dawkins Fallacy.

The Dawkins fallacy is when a problem of larger scope is used as a foil to dismantle protest over a problem seemingly of smaller scope. The smaller scope argument superficially seems to disappear under the larger scope, but it is actually only dismissed or belittled, not refuted.

The lowest level and least insidious version of this is the child who argues about eating their poorly cooked vegetables and the parent uses children starving in Africa to quiet them. The worst offenders use the foil of international problems to keep individuals from seeking to improve their lives, they should be content with what they have because others have it worse off. Don't like your shitty job? At least you HAVE a shitty job, tones of people don't, so you should be content with it. Don't like getting harrassed in the workplace? Why are you complaining about workplace harassement when women in the middle east have to wear burkhas and get raped daily?

It may be cognitive bias, but I'm starting to see Dawkins Fallacy everywhere.

:lulz:

But I would have called it Dawkins Elevator
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 01, 2011, 04:31:50 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on October 09, 2011, 06:02:15 PM
When I first started hearing about objections to the Occupy protests, the imediatly reminded me of that fallacious argument Dawkins used at that conference to belittle a woman harassed at night in an elevator.

I think, because I'm seeing this everywhere, it needs a name, so I'm going to start calling it the argumentum ad oblitum, or more simply the Dawkins Fallacy.

The Dawkins fallacy is when a problem of larger scope is used as a foil to dismantle protest over a problem seemingly of smaller scope. The smaller scope argument superficially seems to disappear under the larger scope, but it is actually only dismissed or belittled, not refuted.

The lowest level and least insidious version of this is the child who argues about eating their poorly cooked vegetables and the parent uses children starving in Africa to quiet them. The worst offenders use the foil of international problems to keep individuals from seeking to improve their lives, they should be content with what they have because others have it worse off. Don't like your shitty job? At least you HAVE a shitty job, tones of people don't, so you should be content with it. Don't like getting harrassed in the workplace? Why are you complaining about workplace harassement when women in the middle east have to wear burkhas and get raped daily?

It may be cognitive bias, but I'm starting to see Dawkins Fallacy everywhere.

I really just can't bump this enough. I feel like it deserves its own thread. This is a form of argument that has bugged me since I was 19 years old; I used to describe it as "I kick my dog, but my neighbor beats his kids so I'm OK in comparison" but having an actual name for it is so so useful. I feel like a pretty good dialogue could be opened about this argumentative gambit, because it is SO widely used.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 01, 2011, 04:33:21 PM
In fact, it's one of those things like the Dunning/Kruger Effect, that's so pervasive it's hard to believe it's only just been properly described!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on November 01, 2011, 06:27:25 PM
Spelled out like that, and looking back, I realize I have been guilty of this fallacy many times myself.  I have memories of retarded facebook arguments that ended with me saying something like "Get some fucking perspective, hundreds of children have died by the time you finish reading this" or something loosely related to the topic.

I'm glad you brought this to my attention, I shall now endeavor to avoid this false argument whenever I catch myself using it.

Question though, does the "First-world problem" / "Coffeemaker broken" type things I see many people here annoyed with fit into this?
I mean, the term "first-world problem" seems to have an implication of "small fries because non first world countries have bigger problems!", which would seem like an underwritten Dawkins fallacy.  I guess what I'm saying is, is there a distinction somewhere between "putting things in perspective" vs "belittling the problem"?  Because I could see that line getting rather blurry.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 01, 2011, 07:02:24 PM
Speaking of first world problems... they ruined the McRib by using inferior bread!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on November 01, 2011, 07:19:27 PM
(http://i39.tinypic.com/244a0bb.jpg)

I believe this is relevant.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on November 01, 2011, 07:45:11 PM
Quote from: trix on November 01, 2011, 06:27:25 PM
Spelled out like that, and looking back, I realize I have been guilty of this fallacy many times myself.  I have memories of retarded facebook arguments that ended with me saying something like "Get some fucking perspective, hundreds of children have died by the time you finish reading this" or something loosely related to the topic.

I'm glad you brought this to my attention, I shall now endeavor to avoid this false argument whenever I catch myself using it.

Question though, does the "First-world problem" / "Coffeemaker broken" type things I see many people here annoyed with fit into this?
I mean, the term "first-world problem" seems to have an implication of "small fries because non first world countries have bigger problems!", which would seem like an underwritten Dawkins fallacy.  I guess what I'm saying is, is there a distinction somewhere between "putting things in perspective" vs "belittling the problem"?  Because I could see that line getting rather blurry.

You just have to apply some common sense and perspective to it.

When I first heard of Elevatorgate it was all from 3rd party sources. I read Dawkins reply I immediately sided with him because the image of the woman that he projected in his reply was of some completely over-reacting feminist nutjob.

Then I watched the original video, all she said was "Dont do that guys" in a disproving way. She wasnt calling for this guy to be tarred and feathered, she wasnt sobbing from the trauma of being "almost raped", she was slightly annoyed with being awkwardly hit on in an elevator and was advising men not to do that. "Dont awkwardly hit on women" is hardly controversial advice, and judging by the average E.Q. of the Neo-Atheist community its probably deathly needed advice.

I still dont understand what possessed Dawkins to write that diatribe other than draining the fluid from his douchebag glands. 

Some people need to be given a good dose of perspective, but not everyone does. As long as people arent being disproportionately dramatic then I think they are justified in voicing their complaints.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on November 01, 2011, 07:47:43 PM
Re-jacking this thread.

QuoteAugust 15, 2011

Dear Fellow Concerned Americans:

Our country is better than this.

Over the last few weeks and months, our national elected officials from both parties have failed to lead. They have chosen to put partisan and ideological purity over the well-being of the people. They have undermined the full faith and credit of the United States. They have stirred up fears about our economic prospects without doing anything to truly address those fears. They have spent a resource even more precious than the dollar: our collective confidence in each other, in the future, and in our ability to solve problems together.

As leaders in business, we have watched all this unfold, first with frustration and then with dismay. Like so many of our employees and customers, we are gravely concerned about the current situation. Today, with both humility and urgency, we propose to do something about it.

First, we aim to push our elected leaders to face the nation's long-term fiscal challenges with civility, honesty, and a willingness to sacrifice their own re-election. This means not kicking the can anymore. It means reaching a deal on debt, revenue, and spending long before the deadline arrives this fall. It means considering all options, from entitlement programs to taxes.

This is what so many common-sense Americans want. That is why we today pledge to withhold any further campaign contributions to the President and all members of Congress until a fair, bipartisan deal is reached that sets our nation on stronger long-term fiscal footing. And we invite leaders of businesses – indeed, all concerned Americans – to join us in this pledge.

We also believe in leading by positive example. And we believe that while the long-term fiscal challenge is serious, even more painful to millions of Americans today is the immediate crisis of jobs. Tens of millions are unemployed and underemployed. Right now our economy is frozen in a cycle of fear and uncertainty. Companies are afraid to hire. Consumers are afraid to spend. Banks are afraid to lend. Record levels of cash are piling up in corporate treasuries, idling. That cash is not being used to expand operations, train new workers, underwrite new ventures, or spark innovation.

The only way to break this cycle of fear is to break it. The only way to get the country's economic circulatory system flowing again is to start pumping lifeblood through it. That is why we today issue a second pledge. Our companies are going to hire. We are going to accelerate growth, employment, and investment in jobs.

We do this because we want to set in motion an upward spiral of confidence. We are not waiting for government to create an incentive program or a stimulus. We are not waiting for economic indicators to tell us it's safe to act. We are hiring more people now. We invite leaders of businesses across the country to join us in this pledge as well – and to bring their stakeholders into the effort. Confidence is contagious. The best thing we can do now is to spread it.

This is a time for citizenship, not partisanship. It is a time for action. We don't pretend that our two pledges are quick fixes. We just believe that in this moment of great uncertainty, the government needs discipline, the people need jobs – and leaders need to lead.

Our country is better than this. Let's get things moving now.

Respectfully,
Howard Schultz
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on November 01, 2011, 08:05:44 PM
I'm tired of this "we need jobs" bullshit. No, having a 40-hour-a-week job is part of how they control you, eating up your time and making you too tired to fight them. I don't have any problem with supporting myself, but that's not what having a job is really about from a sociological perspective.

I don't want a job. I want to use twenty-first-century technology to bring about a post-scarcity society where the average person doesn't need a job to survive.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 01, 2011, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: trix on November 01, 2011, 06:27:25 PM
Spelled out like that, and looking back, I realize I have been guilty of this fallacy many times myself.  I have memories of retarded facebook arguments that ended with me saying something like "Get some fucking perspective, hundreds of children have died by the time you finish reading this" or something loosely related to the topic.

I'm glad you brought this to my attention, I shall now endeavor to avoid this false argument whenever I catch myself using it.

Question though, does the "First-world problem" / "Coffeemaker broken" type things I see many people here annoyed with fit into this?
I mean, the term "first-world problem" seems to have an implication of "small fries because non first world countries have bigger problems!", which would seem like an underwritten Dawkins fallacy.  I guess what I'm saying is, is there a distinction somewhere between "putting things in perspective" vs "belittling the problem"?  Because I could see that line getting rather blurry.

Welllll, part of that blurry line is between entitlement and responsibility. And another part is between happenstance and fortune.

My life sucks (relatively speaking) because I've been rejected by a lover and am almost three months behind on the mortgage. However, my life doesn't suck at all because I and my children are well-fed and live in a comfortable home, and it has been this way for as long as they remember.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 01, 2011, 08:21:04 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on November 01, 2011, 08:05:44 PM
I'm tired of this "we need jobs" bullshit. No, having a 40-hour-a-week job is part of how they control you, eating up your time and making you too tired to fight them. I don't have any problem with supporting myself, but that's not what having a job is really about from a sociological perspective.

I don't want a job. I want to use twenty-first-century technology to bring about a post-scarcity society where the average person doesn't need a job to survive.

you really believe the current state of technology is able to bring about a post-scarcity society?
i gotta say, i think that's a pipe dream, and until we are able to bring about a technotopia, people are going to be concerned about putting food on their plate, and that means they need a job...
you might as well ask for using 19th century technology to make a giant steam powered voltron.
which i want.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 01, 2011, 08:25:10 PM
On the other hand, only being able to afford cheap, starchy, refined-sugar containing food while on welfare also makes people too weak to fight them.

Hey, it's an ideal, and I get that.  It's just not a very useful one to someone whose immediate problems are cash flow, lack of medical insurance and the possibility of being thrown out of rented accomodation/having their house foreclosed on them.

Generally, it's best to solve the more immediately solvable problems first, then work towards the more difficult, long-term and culture-changing ones.,

In other news, America's Concern Troll, Roger Cohen, is at last concerned about Wall Street:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/wall-street-is-still-playing-us-for-suckers/2011/10/31/gIQA3NGQaM_story.html?hpid=z5

QuoteAs a mere youth, I bought a used car in New York to drive to California to be with the woman of my dreams. Inexplicably, she decided to rush back to New York, so I promptly took the car back to the dealer. He made a shockingly low offer. The car had been in an accident, he explained. The chassis was bent. I was flabbergasted. I had just bought the car from him. If the chassis was bent, it was bent when I bought it. The salesman offered me a take-it-or-leave-it shrug. He probably now works on Wall Street.

That the morality of the used car lot has been adopted by Wall Street is now abundantly clear. Citigroup recently settled a civil complaint in which it was accused of selling mortgage-related investments that it knew were dogs. It was so certain that the investments were the financial equivalent of my used car that it bet against them — heads I win, tails you lose — and even selected the investments themselves, choosing from a cupboard of depleted and exhausted financial instruments. An investment in the Brooklyn Bridge would have been safer.

He's still a torture-apologist dickweed, but this may be a sign of changing priorities among the chattering classes media.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 01, 2011, 08:29:18 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on November 01, 2011, 08:05:44 PM
I'm tired of this "we need jobs" bullshit. No, having a 40-hour-a-week job is part of how they control you, eating up your time and making you too tired to fight them. I don't have any problem with supporting myself, but that's not what having a job is really about from a sociological perspective.

I don't want a job. I want to use twenty-first-century technology to bring about a post-scarcity society where the average person doesn't need a job to survive.

Oh, COME THE FUCK ON. What are you, 12? Everyone needs to work to survive, and I'm already fed up as shit about people not thinking the work I do is a "job" just because I'm self-employed.

Guess what asshole; if you aren't willing to work, it's nobody's job to feed your stupid entitled ass.

I am not a Libertarian; I would slaughter those cocktarded fuckers to the gods of evolution.

But don't pull out the "I am 12 and what is this" anarchy of total stupidity. If you really believe that you deserve to do absolutely not one fucking thing and yet be supported by everyone who does do something productive, you are an ass.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on November 01, 2011, 08:53:10 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on November 01, 2011, 08:05:44 PM
I'm tired of this "we need jobs" bullshit. No, having a 40-hour-a-week job is part of how they control you, eating up your time and making you too tired to fight them. I don't have any problem with supporting myself, but that's not what having a job is really about from a sociological perspective.

I don't want a job. I want to use twenty-first-century technology to bring about a post-scarcity society where the average person doesn't need a job to survive.

So, basically, you want this. (http://www.thevenusproject.com/)

There are a lot of people who believe that it is possible for that to work.  I am not one of them.  I subscribe to the Dok Howl philosophy that if the plan assumes/hopes/depends on people acting mature, intelligent, or responsible, it is likely to fail.

I do have many friends who believe it could work despite the monkeys however, and hey, maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on November 01, 2011, 08:55:15 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 01, 2011, 08:21:04 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on November 01, 2011, 08:05:44 PM
I'm tired of this "we need jobs" bullshit. No, having a 40-hour-a-week job is part of how they control you, eating up your time and making you too tired to fight them. I don't have any problem with supporting myself, but that's not what having a job is really about from a sociological perspective.

I don't want a job. I want to use twenty-first-century technology to bring about a post-scarcity society where the average person doesn't need a job to survive.

you really believe the current state of technology is able to bring about a post-scarcity society?
i gotta say, i think that's a pipe dream, and until we are able to bring about a technotopia, people are going to be concerned about putting food on their plate, and that means they need a job...
you might as well ask for using 19th century technology to make a giant steam powered voltron.
which i want.

Actually, I believe the current state of technology is definitely able to do so.  I don't believe the current state of humanity is, however.  The resources to do something Venus Project-ish are available.  But everyone in the world would have to get behind it.  It says so right on the website.  Therein lies the problem.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 01, 2011, 09:28:14 PM
perhaps.
but it's a moot point, as i assumed it was implicit that humanity continues to act human.

at any rate, it's a silly jack to this occupy thread.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on November 01, 2011, 10:35:32 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 01, 2011, 09:28:14 PM
perhaps.
but it's a moot point, as i assumed it was implicit that humanity continues to act human.

at any rate, it's a silly jack to this occupy thread.

Word.

Back on topic, and semi-old news for those up-to-the-minute but new to the thread, Occupy Oakland hosts a general strike tomorrow, November 2nd, to "shut down" the city. (http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-oakland-calls-city-wide-general-strike-nov-/)

Anybody want to take odds on a city of something like half a million people shutting down because 1484 people voted for it?
Don't get me wrong, if this is successful, the message will be powerful.  But somehow I don't think support for the movement is as universal as they seem to think.  Perhaps they are surrounded by so much positive reinforcement that they are sheltered from any dissent.  Or, perhaps I am wrong and this thing has far more influence than I suspect.

If it fails, however, I think the attempt could be pretty bad for the Occupy movement as a whole.  Or maybe not, perhaps a failed attempt will galvanize the silent supporters into paying more attention and participating.  I've never been very good at predictions.

That said though, my money would be on the vast majority of Oakland continuing with business as usual come tomorrow.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 01, 2011, 11:08:08 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on November 01, 2011, 07:47:43 PM
Re-jacking this thread.

QuoteAugust 15, 2011

Dear Fellow Concerned Americans:

Our country is better than this.

Over the last few weeks and months, our national elected officials from both parties have failed to lead. They have chosen to put partisan and ideological purity over the well-being of the people. They have undermined the full faith and credit of the United States. They have stirred up fears about our economic prospects without doing anything to truly address those fears. They have spent a resource even more precious than the dollar: our collective confidence in each other, in the future, and in our ability to solve problems together.

As leaders in business, we have watched all this unfold, first with frustration and then with dismay. Like so many of our employees and customers, we are gravely concerned about the current situation. Today, with both humility and urgency, we propose to do something about it.

First, we aim to push our elected leaders to face the nation's long-term fiscal challenges with civility, honesty, and a willingness to sacrifice their own re-election. This means not kicking the can anymore. It means reaching a deal on debt, revenue, and spending long before the deadline arrives this fall. It means considering all options, from entitlement programs to taxes.

This is what so many common-sense Americans want. That is why we today pledge to withhold any further campaign contributions to the President and all members of Congress until a fair, bipartisan deal is reached that sets our nation on stronger long-term fiscal footing. And we invite leaders of businesses – indeed, all concerned Americans – to join us in this pledge.

We also believe in leading by positive example. And we believe that while the long-term fiscal challenge is serious, even more painful to millions of Americans today is the immediate crisis of jobs. Tens of millions are unemployed and underemployed. Right now our economy is frozen in a cycle of fear and uncertainty. Companies are afraid to hire. Consumers are afraid to spend. Banks are afraid to lend. Record levels of cash are piling up in corporate treasuries, idling. That cash is not being used to expand operations, train new workers, underwrite new ventures, or spark innovation.

The only way to break this cycle of fear is to break it. The only way to get the country's economic circulatory system flowing again is to start pumping lifeblood through it. That is why we today issue a second pledge. Our companies are going to hire. We are going to accelerate growth, employment, and investment in jobs.

We do this because we want to set in motion an upward spiral of confidence. We are not waiting for government to create an incentive program or a stimulus. We are not waiting for economic indicators to tell us it's safe to act. We are hiring more people now. We invite leaders of businesses across the country to join us in this pledge as well – and to bring their stakeholders into the effort. Confidence is contagious. The best thing we can do now is to spread it.

This is a time for citizenship, not partisanship. It is a time for action. We don't pretend that our two pledges are quick fixes. We just believe that in this moment of great uncertainty, the government needs discipline, the people need jobs – and leaders need to lead.

Our country is better than this. Let's get things moving now.

Respectfully,
Howard Schultz

Fuck that man. Fuck him in his stupid greedy blistered anus. If Howard Schultz was on fire, I would not piss on him to put him out. Any noise he makes about doing the right thing and trying to help the long-term prospects of the common man is strictly a bunch of self-serving bullshit designed to give him good PR. In private, that man would just as soon use you and I for kindling as sacrifice one penny of his fortune to help any of us in any way.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 01, 2011, 11:10:11 PM
Sorry for jacking your re-jack, that man just makes me lose my composure.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on November 02, 2011, 05:05:27 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 01, 2011, 08:29:18 PM
Oh, COME THE FUCK ON. What are you, 12? Everyone needs to work to survive, and I'm already fed up as shit about people not thinking the work I do is a "job" just because I'm self-employed.

Guess what asshole; if you aren't willing to work, it's nobody's job to feed your stupid entitled ass.

I am not a Libertarian; I would slaughter those cocktarded fuckers to the gods of evolution.

But don't pull out the "I am 12 and what is this" anarchy of total stupidity. If you really believe that you deserve to do absolutely not one fucking thing and yet be supported by everyone who does do something productive, you are an ass.

Um, right there in my first post:

Quote from: Laughin Jude on November 01, 2011, 08:05:44 PM
I don't have any problem with supporting myself, but that's not what having a job is really about from a sociological perspective.

And obviously what you're doing is a job in the sense that it's your way of supporting yourself, which is awesome. Self-employment is my own eventual goal; at the moment I'm working shitty labor jobs while putting myself through college. I'm using the term "job" here to refer to the more common 9-to-5 trap that most of America's stuck in, which I view as a level of social control.

Quote from: trix on November 01, 2011, 08:55:15 PM
Actually, I believe the current state of technology is definitely able to do so.  I don't believe the current state of humanity is, however.  The resources to do something Venus Project-ish are available.  But everyone in the world would have to get behind it.  It says so right on the website.  Therein lies the problem.

Agreed. It's incredibly unlikely without a massive rewiring of our cultural value system. But hey, I'm a dreamer, when I'm not being a pessimist... :lulz: ...and unlikely as it is, it's happened before. When shit changes, it can change awfully fast.

Quote from: trix on November 01, 2011, 10:35:32 PM
Word.

Back on topic, and semi-old news for those up-to-the-minute but new to the thread, Occupy Oakland hosts a general strike tomorrow, November 2nd, to "shut down" the city. (http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-oakland-calls-city-wide-general-strike-nov-/)

Anybody want to take odds on a city of something like half a million people shutting down because 1484 people voted for it?
Don't get me wrong, if this is successful, the message will be powerful.  But somehow I don't think support for the movement is as universal as they seem to think.  Perhaps they are surrounded by so much positive reinforcement that they are sheltered from any dissent.  Or, perhaps I am wrong and this thing has far more influence than I suspect.

If it fails, however, I think the attempt could be pretty bad for the Occupy movement as a whole.  Or maybe not, perhaps a failed attempt will galvanize the silent supporters into paying more attention and participating.  I've never been very good at predictions.

That said though, my money would be on the vast majority of Oakland continuing with business as usual come tomorrow.

I have no idea if it'll work or not. It's the sort of thing that probably needs to be happening, though. I'm getting the sense in Portland that people want to be doing something, but there's still not a lot of agreement on what that something should be. This movement needs a victory to keep it going.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 02, 2011, 10:41:59 AM
There are some non-40 hour work week models which don't necessarily rely on humans being more than human...

The real trick is separating the "No one should have to work" absurdity with the "People should be able to work less at jobs they find more fulfilling" concept. For example, modern technology has removed many different types of manual labor work from the job market. a couple centuries ago, people were working far more than 40 hours a week. In the 1800's if we posited that technology would replace a lot of low end jobs and that people could survive by only working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week... we'd be met with the same kind of incredulity.

However, the overall materialism rampant in the current society makes several decent solutions difficult to implement. For example, a 40 hour a week job that pays $100,000 could be split into two 20 hour a week jobs that pay $50,000. A salary of 50k should be enough to live on and would provide both employees with much more free time to pursue their own goals. However, they'd would both have to forgo 42" flat screen tv's with 600 channels. They'd have to refrain from buying a new car every 2 years.

RAW talked about this in his theoretical "RICH economy" (Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy). In that system, the government provided incentives for employees to find ways to use technology to replace their jobs. Possible? Yes. Likely? Nope... not until the whole damn system crashes.

It's not an issue of NEEDING to work 40 hours a week... its an issue of materialistic greed and social pressure, if the system crashes, then the social norms may change.



Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 02, 2011, 12:11:52 PM
Except that for a lot of jobs, especially the ones worth $100k, splitting a job into two jobs comes with quite a significant amount of communication overhead, organisational overhead, higher risk of errors, and therefore an overall decrease in quality of the work, product or service.

It's really not hard to imagine situations where, if you'd split a 40h/$100k job, but worked to keep the quality constant, you'd end up with two 40h jobs each worth $50k, where half the time is spent on very non-fulfilling overhead.

And then you get "Human Resource Management", which is really not as straightforward as you'd like to imagine.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 02, 2011, 05:04:12 PM
Quote from: trix on November 01, 2011, 10:35:32 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 01, 2011, 09:28:14 PM
perhaps.
but it's a moot point, as i assumed it was implicit that humanity continues to act human.

at any rate, it's a silly jack to this occupy thread.

Word.

Back on topic, and semi-old news for those up-to-the-minute but new to the thread, Occupy Oakland hosts a general strike tomorrow, November 2nd, to "shut down" the city. (http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-oakland-calls-city-wide-general-strike-nov-/)

Anybody want to take odds on a city of something like half a million people shutting down because 1484 people voted for it?
Don't get me wrong, if this is successful, the message will be powerful.  But somehow I don't think support for the movement is as universal as they seem to think.  Perhaps they are surrounded by so much positive reinforcement that they are sheltered from any dissent.  Or, perhaps I am wrong and this thing has far more influence than I suspect.

If it fails, however, I think the attempt could be pretty bad for the Occupy movement as a whole.  Or maybe not, perhaps a failed attempt will galvanize the silent supporters into paying more attention and participating.  I've never been very good at predictions.

That said though, my money would be on the vast majority of Oakland continuing with business as usual come tomorrow.

Here's what the cops have to say about it.

http://www.opoa.org/uncategorized/an-open-letter-to-the-citizens-of-oakland-from-the-oakland-police-officers%E2%80%99-association/

I think after making the incredible miscalculation of shooting a Marine in the face they are obviously confused.  On the other hand they make some good points, the mayor is an idiot.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 02, 2011, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 02, 2011, 12:11:52 PM
Except that for a lot of jobs, especially the ones worth $100k, splitting a job into two jobs comes with quite a significant amount of communication overhead, organisational overhead, higher risk of errors, and therefore an overall decrease in quality of the work, product or service.

It's really not hard to imagine situations where, if you'd split a 40h/$100k job, but worked to keep the quality constant, you'd end up with two 40h jobs each worth $50k, where half the time is spent on very non-fulfilling overhead.

And then you get "Human Resource Management", which is really not as straightforward as you'd like to imagine.

Thanks for putting it so succinctly. Those two $50k jobs will have an associated $20k each of admin and benefits costs.

Also, gotta say that the economic problem isn't really $100k jobs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 03, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
QuoteThe Wrong Inequality
By DAVID BROOKS

We live in a polarizing society, so perhaps it's inevitable that our experience of inequality should be polarized, too.

In the first place, there is what you might call Blue Inequality. This is the kind experienced in New York City, Los Angeles, Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Houston and the District of Columbia. In these places, you see the top 1 percent of earners zooming upward, amassing more income and wealth. The economists Jon Bakija, Adam Cole and Bradley Heim have done the most authoritative research on who these top 1 percenters are.

Roughly 31 percent started or manage nonfinancial businesses. About 16 percent are doctors, 14 percent are in finance, 8 percent are lawyers, 5 percent are engineers and about 2 percent are in sports, entertainment or the media.

If you live in or around these big cities, you see stores and entire neighborhoods catering to the top 1 percent. You see a shift in social norms. Up until 1970 or so, a chief executive would have been embarrassed to take home more than $20 million. But now there is no shame, and top compensation zooms upward.

You also see the superstar effect that economists have noticed in the income data. Within each profession, the top performers are now paid much better than the merely good or average performers.

If you live in these big cities, you see people similar to yourself, who may have gone to the same college, who are earning much more while benefiting from low tax rates, wielding disproportionate political power, gaining in prestige and contributing seemingly little to the social good. That is the experience of Blue Inequality.

Then there is what you might call Red Inequality. This is the kind experienced in Scranton, Des Moines, Naperville, Macon, Fresno, and almost everywhere else. In these places, the crucial inequality is not between the top 1 percent and the bottom 99 percent. It's between those with a college degree and those without.

The rest of the article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/brooks-the-wrong-inequality.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

Brooks concludes that this "Red Inequality" is a larger, more serious problem than the "Blue Inequality".

"Yeah, you guys should go on and get educated and don't worry about the quiet and methodical dissassembly of democracy by a plutocratic elite."

:roflcake:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2011, 12:40:48 AM
Ah, David Brooks.  All the vices of Victorian anthropology, none of the virtues.

You'll be glad to know this has been widely mocked on the net.  More widely mocked than Brooks normally is, anyway.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 03, 2011, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2011, 12:40:48 AM
Ah, David Brooks.  All the vices of Victorian anthropology, none of the virtues.

You'll be glad to know this has been widely mocked on the net.  More widely mocked than Brooks normally is, anyway.

The practicing economist that sent me the link to that Brooks article might benefit from reading such mockery, should you happen to have some of those links handy.

I'm still kind of stunned that a working economics Phd would buy that polished turd of an article. I hope it turns out he's just trolling me, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on November 03, 2011, 01:16:15 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 02, 2011, 12:11:52 PM
Except that for a lot of jobs, especially the ones worth $100k, splitting a job into two jobs comes with quite a significant amount of communication overhead, organisational overhead, higher risk of errors, and therefore an overall decrease in quality of the work, product or service.

It's really not hard to imagine situations where, if you'd split a 40h/$100k job, but worked to keep the quality constant, you'd end up with two 40h jobs each worth $50k, where half the time is spent on very non-fulfilling overhead.

And then you get "Human Resource Management", which is really not as straightforward as you'd like to imagine.

Actually I see this in Open Source Software all the time.  There have been quite a lot of good projects that ended up with so many people working on it, each with their own idea of what it should be and what it should do, that it ends up with thousands of side features of every conceivable kind, but serious issues with it's main use that never quite get ironed out.  Like a video player that can do everything from view PDF files to edit sound waves, but still stutters or has artifacts during regular video playback.

So yeah, THIS.  Double the man power and you don't always get double the work output.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2011, 01:28:38 AM
Quote from: Net on November 03, 2011, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2011, 12:40:48 AM
Ah, David Brooks.  All the vices of Victorian anthropology, none of the virtues.

You'll be glad to know this has been widely mocked on the net.  More widely mocked than Brooks normally is, anyway.

The practicing economist that sent me the link to that Brooks article might benefit from reading such mockery, should you happen to have some of those links handy.

I'm still kind of stunned that a working economics Phd would buy that polished turd of an article. I hope it turns out he's just trolling me, but I doubt it.

As always, IOZ is the first stop for mocking the pretensions of cultural elitists

http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/11/lord-great-chamberpot.html

Apart from IOZ, Charles Pierce is usually reliable in this regard

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/david-brooks-wrong-inequality-column-6537797

Usually mockable Balloon-Juice also has some goods on the article

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/11/01/a-funny-thing-happened-on-the-way-to-the-applebees-salad-bar/

Brad DeLong's a fool, but he's less of a fool than Brooks

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/11/ooops-he-did-it-again-yet-another-david-brooks-geography-boo-boo-edition.html

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 03, 2011, 01:52:36 AM
Some very interesting points, but also, what is left (largely)  unaddressed is what about the ability of people to earn a reasonable living via manufacturing or consumer support, almost all of which has been outsourced without tariff? The US (and I assume other first-world) countries have been gutted in pursuit of inexpensive overseas labor, with no financial repurcussion for companies who engage in these practices.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2011, 05:22:41 AM
Oakland port has been shut down.

Military veterans are engaged in a stand-off with police in New York, also.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on November 03, 2011, 01:32:10 PM
From Occupy Boston:

(http://i.imgur.com/SSoqc.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 03, 2011, 01:42:34 PM
Wow that's a great image.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on November 03, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/actoa8.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: notathing on November 03, 2011, 11:00:44 PM
Cram: that's a great political drawing, thank you for sharing.  I am puzzled by the date on the drawing though hah

Lord Glittersnatch: excellent and funny counterexamples!

so, occupy protests in Detroit have been underway, and there have been some interesting occurrences, notably this incident at my college:

http://www.occupy-detroit.us/2011/11/02/occupy-detroit-members-are-arrested-for-questioning-nyse-ceo-duncan-niederauer-later-released/

I applaud the protesters for this, and wish I had known about this event.  I am reading the Occupy Detroit daily now and finding how I can get involved.
The occupy movement in Detroit has been quite well received. It rather hopeful that the movement has taken roots here; everyone in this city and surrounding suburbs knows the system is broken beyond denial.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2011, 11:03:16 PM
Occupy London are almost entirely made up of UK Uncut people.

Who are universally acknowledged as wankers.  Also, they're "occupying" the area in front of St Paul's cathedral.  Because you know, Jesus is responsible for the banking collapse.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 03, 2011, 11:33:02 PM
I've decided that if the protests are still going on when I get home with some time off I'm going to find a way to offer some tangible support. I'm thinking that volunteering in the kitchens would be a good start.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on November 04, 2011, 12:58:50 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/03/acorn-officials-scramble-firing-workers-and-shredding-documents-after-exposed/#ixzz1cgwHXJML

QuoteOfficials with the revamped ACORN office in New York -- operating as New York Communities for Change -- have fired staff, shredded reams of documents and told workers to blame disgruntled ex-employees for leaking information in an effort to explain away a FoxNews.com report last week on the group's involvement in Occupy Wall Street protests, according to sources.

OH BOY HERE WE GO.
:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 04, 2011, 01:29:14 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2011, 01:28:38 AM
Quote from: Net on November 03, 2011, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2011, 12:40:48 AM
Ah, David Brooks.  All the vices of Victorian anthropology, none of the virtues.

You'll be glad to know this has been widely mocked on the net.  More widely mocked than Brooks normally is, anyway.

The practicing economist that sent me the link to that Brooks article might benefit from reading such mockery, should you happen to have some of those links handy.

I'm still kind of stunned that a working economics Phd would buy that polished turd of an article. I hope it turns out he's just trolling me, but I doubt it.

As always, IOZ is the first stop for mocking the pretensions of cultural elitists

http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/11/lord-great-chamberpot.html

Apart from IOZ, Charles Pierce is usually reliable in this regard

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/david-brooks-wrong-inequality-column-6537797

Usually mockable Balloon-Juice also has some goods on the article

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/11/01/a-funny-thing-happened-on-the-way-to-the-applebees-salad-bar/

Brad DeLong's a fool, but he's less of a fool than Brooks

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/11/ooops-he-did-it-again-yet-another-david-brooks-geography-boo-boo-edition.html


Thanks Cain. These are excellent.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2011, 12:40:41 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/04/us-protests-oakland-veteran-idUSTRE7A37A820111104

QuoteA former U.S. Army Ranger and Occupy Oakland protester was in intensive care on Friday after a veterans group said he was beaten by police during clashes with demonstrators this week.

The veteran, identified as Kayvan Sabeghi, was the second former American serviceman during the past two weeks to be badly hurt in confrontations between anti-Wall Street protesters and police in Oakland.

The group Iraq Veterans Against the War said Sabeghi was detained during disturbances that erupted late on Wednesday in downtown Oakland and was charged with resisting arrest and remaining present at the place of a riot.

Highland General Hospital confirmed that Sabeghi was a patient in the intensive care unit there.

Brian Kelly, who co-owns a brew pub with Sabeghi, said his business partner served as an Army Ranger in Iraq and Afghanistan. He said Sabeghi told him he was arrested and beaten by a group of policemen as he was leaving the protest to go home.

"He told me he was in the hospital with a lacerated spleen and that the cops had jumped him," Kelly said. "They put him in jail, and he told them he was injured, and they denied him medical treatment for about 18 hours."

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an unofficial policy of targeting veterans first by police.  "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter".

And this is an interesting look into how the OWS actually organizes

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27479

QuoteAt the teach-in, Ms. Holmes maintained that while the NYC-GA is the "de facto" mechanism for distributing funds, it has no right to do so, even though she acknowledged that most donors were likely under the impression that the NYC-GA was the only organization with access to these funds. Two other leaders of the teach-in, Daniel and Adash, concurred with Holmes.

Ms. Holmes also stated at the teach-in that five people in the Finance WG have access to the $500,000 raised by Friends of Liberty Plaza. When Suresh Fernando, the man taking notes, asked who these people are, the leaders of the Structure WG nervously laughed and said that it was hard to keep track of the "constantly fluctuating" heads of the Finance WG. Mr. Fernando made at least four increasingly explicit requests for the names. Each request was turned down by the giggling, equivocating leaders.

The leaders of the Structure WG eventually regained control of the teach-in. They said that they too were unhappy with the Finance WG's monopoly over OWS's funds, which is why they wanted to create the Spokes Council. What upset them more, however, was the inefficient and fickle General Assembly. A major point of the discussion was whether the Spokes Council and the NYC-GA should have access to the funds, or just the Spokes Council.

Daniel, a tall, red-bearded, white twenty-something—one of the six leaders of the teach-in—said that the NYC-GA needed to be completely defunded because those with "no stake" in the Occupy Wall Street movement shouldn't have a say in how the money was spent. When I asked him whether everybody in the 99% had a stake in the movement, he said that only those occupying or working in Zuccotti Park did. I pointed out that since the General Assembly took place in Zuccotti Park, everybody who participated was an occupier. He responded with a long rant about how Zuccotti Park is filled with "tourists," "free-loaders" and "crackheads" and suggested a solution that the even NYPD has not yet attempted: Daniel said that he'd like to take a fire-hose and clear out the entire encampment, adding hopefully that only the "real" activists would come back.

QuoteThe facilitators told each group to elect a facilitator, a note-taker, and a spokesperson who would read the notes from each group's meeting. Almost immediately, one of the members of the OWS inner-circle asked my group if anybody had a problem if she facilitated. Nobody objected, so she was "elected." Although she was in the one group that opposed occupying Washington Square Park, she lectured us about the need to occupy public parks.

I was vocal in my group, arguing that the fundamental problem in our hierarchical, bureaucratic society is the lack of a truly democratic, dialogic way of relating to one another—not that public parks close at midnight. I repeated the arguments I had raised in previous General Assemblies, concluding that OWS' main goal should be to develop dialogic, democratic methods in the occupied areas, and to extend this way of life into every home, workplace and school, and in local, regional, national and international bodies.

My advocacy for radical democracy wasn't particularly popular. Ironically, the predominantly middle-class, white men leading the movement claim that their hostility to democracy is in the interest of "protecting minorities," referring to oppressed genders, races, classes, ages, and nations. Far from being "minorities," these people make up the majority of the world's population; the worldwide outcry for democracy vitiates the paternalistic notion that the oppressed need "protection."

The discussion turned to which locations the movement should occupy, ignoring the question of whether occupation for the sake of occupation was a good idea. I suggested teaming with evicted tenants and former homeowners to occupy foreclosed homes, abandoned apartments and unsold condos—an act that would strike at the heart of the economic crisis, and endear the movement to the oppressed. This idea generated a lot of support, but was not repeated by my "spokesperson" when the groups reconvened.

At the teach-in on Sunday the 23rd, one of the leaders' main gripes—rightfully so—was that the NYC-GA was inefficient and dominated by society's vocal minorities, particularly middle-class white men. The underlying cause is not eliminated by the Spokes Council, but is in fact exacerbated by it. The major flaw of the General Assembly is the need for a 90% majority to pass proposals. This "modified consensus" ensures the continuation of the dominant culture through the passage of only the most conservative measures. In the Spokes Council, proposals can be blocked by 11% of the members of 11% of the Working Groups, meaning that a minority of 1.2% can stymie the will of 98.8% majority.

I get the impression there is a level of personal butthurt behind this, but it doesn't invalidate some of the observations made.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on November 05, 2011, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on November 01, 2011, 12:20:30 PM
Sedition doesn't go far enough.
Around Franklyn and 101 I forgot the the caption to this one:  :roll:
(http://www.catholictradition.org/Passion/pgp-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:30:21 AM
So I heard that over a million people closed their bank accounts today.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:37:01 AM
ABC news likes its hyperbole! To clarify; TOTAL in the last few months, not just today. Still, that's impressive.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on November 06, 2011, 12:37:25 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:30:21 AM
So I heard that over a million people closed their bank accounts today.

There was a group of folks with signs outside of a BoA and Wellsfargo this. Saw them after I closed mine.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on November 06, 2011, 12:45:55 AM
I liked this story, truthvalue undetermined:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/02/1032624/-He-has-a-right-to-speak,-said-the-cop-to-the-banker
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:47:42 AM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on November 06, 2011, 12:37:25 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:30:21 AM
So I heard that over a million people closed their bank accounts today.

There was a group of folks with signs outside of a BoA and Wellsfargo this. Saw them after I closed mine.

Whoohoo!

I'm hopeful that the banks will freak out, causing more people to close their accounts.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:56:30 AM
Quote from: Telarus on November 06, 2011, 12:45:55 AM
I liked this story, truthvalue undetermined:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/02/1032624/-He-has-a-right-to-speak,-said-the-cop-to-the-banker

I really like that he's trying to rally more people to do this, it's a great idea!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on November 06, 2011, 06:08:33 AM
Quote from: Telarus on November 06, 2011, 12:45:55 AM
I liked this story, truthvalue undetermined:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/02/1032624/-He-has-a-right-to-speak,-said-the-cop-to-the-banker
(http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/i-want-to-believe-the-x-files-258813_800_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 06, 2011, 01:32:23 PM
I don't know if I'm more shocked by the story... or more shocked that this story could be shocking in a free country... :lulz: :horrormirth: :lulz: :horrormirth: :argh!:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on November 08, 2011, 03:22:38 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 06, 2011, 12:37:01 AM
ABC news likes its hyperbole! To clarify; TOTAL in the last few months, not just today. Still, that's impressive.

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/news/2011/11/07/bank-transfer-day-adds-45-billion-in.html

QuoteBank Transfer Day, the grass-roots movement that urged bank customers to switch to credit unions on or before Nov. 5, led to at least 650,000 new credit union members and a total of $4.5 billion in new deposits, according to the Credit Union National Association.

That's the total over the course of October, amounting to more than the total for all of 2010.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on November 08, 2011, 05:58:44 AM
Impressive!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 08, 2011, 07:22:17 AM
Totally sweet.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 08, 2011, 01:19:30 PM
BoA did away with their $5/debit card transaction fee.  They issued a rather butthurt statement.   :lulz:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/business/bank-of-america-drops-plan-for-debit-card-fee.html?_r=1
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 08, 2011, 01:38:31 PM
Huntington Bank has also dropped all debit card fees, I'd love to find another bank for my money, but I can't open an account here until I get my residence permit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 08, 2011, 04:32:12 PM
http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2011/11/07/brics-of-stability/

QuoteAs repeatedly noted by Mark Adomanis, the Russian liberals and the Western media have predicted about 10 of the last zero Russian revolutions. Likewise, the "Jasmine Revolution" in China that was the subject of so much talk about a year ago has fizzled out like a wet firework. Meanwhile, the Arab world remains in the midst of convulsions, and political instability is spreading into the West – most visibly in Greece and the Med, but also in the guise of Occupy Wall Street and associated movements in the US.

This is no doubt disturbing and aggravating to Western supremacists (it is telling that that the media organization providing the most detailed coverage of OWS, RT, is both non-Western and the object of venomous bile from the American exceptionalism culture warriors). Doesn't the West (and the US in particular) have democracy, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, free media, economic opportunities, equality under the law, etc. – things that are all starkly and completely absent in countries of the Other, e.g. Russia and China? What the hell are the hippies and liberals protesting? Are they doped up unemployed losers, useful idiots of Leninist agents of influence, or both?

I think the answer is far simpler than it seems. In Russia, younger people tend to be both higher earning (their skills are better fitted to a capitalist economy) and more economically optimistic than their parents, not to mention their grandparents. They are also far more pro-capitalist, and substantially more supportive of Putin and Co. than the older generations (who have not done as well under capitalism, and who have fonder memories of communism). In fact, in the minds of Russian youth – and in stark contrast to the picture drawn by uninformed commentators – capitalism, prosperity, and the Putin era are closely linked. Hence, no real Russian equivalent of OWS (at least for now).

While I'm far from as well informed on China, it basically seems to have the same dynamics. Young people there are now far more educated than the middle-aged, let alone the immiserated elderly, and – many of them single children and enjoying far higher incomes than those of their less well-educated parents – are now coming to enjoy many of the creature comforts of rich country lifestyles, such as Internet access, cars, foreign travel. The young are the most active protest group, and keeping them satiated is most important for avoiding revolution. A similar dynamic also appears to be at work in India and Brazil. Hence, no "Spring" or OWS-equivalent in those countries either.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Chairman Risus on November 09, 2011, 07:02:39 AM
http://gawker.com/5857715/pressured-to-name-leader-occupy-denver-elects-dog

QuoteDenver Mayor Michael Hancock insisted that his city's occupation name a leader in order "to deal with City and State officials." And he got his wish! Occupy Denver has elected Shelby, a border collie, as its leader. Long live Shelby!

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2011/11/occupy_denver_leader_dog.php
(http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/shelby.jpg) (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2011/11/occupy_denver_leader_dog.php)
QuoteDespite the new political burden, Shelby remains unfazed: She sprung into action immediately, earning a joke from one occupier that this puts her ahead of most elected officials. Although she spent much of her first night in office celebrating (read: napping), it's unclear if the news has successfully hit home. "Are you the new leader?" Peter John Jentsch quizzed her in a voice usually reserved for children. "Are you, girl? Are you?"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 09, 2011, 07:05:29 AM
Damn, that's a cute dog!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on November 09, 2011, 09:29:43 AM
Border Collies are, like, the smartest kind of dog.

I'm sure she'll do well in her new leadership role.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on November 09, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
Quote from: Risus on November 09, 2011, 07:02:39 AM
http://gawker.com/5857715/pressured-to-name-leader-occupy-denver-elects-dog

QuoteDenver Mayor Michael Hancock insisted that his city's occupation name a leader in order "to deal with City and State officials." And he got his wish! Occupy Denver has elected Shelby, a border collie, as its leader. Long live Shelby!

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2011/11/occupy_denver_leader_dog.php
(http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/shelby.jpg) (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2011/11/occupy_denver_leader_dog.php)
QuoteDespite the new political burden, Shelby remains unfazed: She sprung into action immediately, earning a joke from one occupier that this puts her ahead of most elected officials. Although she spent much of her first night in office celebrating (read: napping), it's unclear if the news has successfully hit home. "Are you the new leader?" Peter John Jentsch quizzed her in a voice usually reserved for children. "Are you, girl? Are you?"
Cutest elected official ever!

:lulz: I have some family members to quiz about this...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on November 11, 2011, 08:06:30 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 08, 2011, 01:38:31 PM
Huntington Bank has also dropped all debit card fees, I'd love to find another bank for my money, but I can't open an account here until I get my residence permit.

Maybe you 'worship' in a specific zip code.

:lulz:


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 12, 2011, 04:42:46 AM
www.portlandonline.com/police/pbnotify.cfm?action=ViewContent&content_id=2592

Really boards with nails?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 12, 2011, 05:45:10 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 12, 2011, 04:42:46 AM
www.portlandonline.com/police/pbnotify.cfm?action=ViewContent&content_id=2592

Really boards with nails?

HAMMER TIME!

I'm going to be there to documenting the shut down with some homies, so if I'm not posting like a bat out of hell early Sunday morning I probably got my footage confiscated and thrown in jail.

If anyone has suggestions, experience or Oregon-specific legal information about recording such confrontations, please supplement my research. I can't afford to see my lawyer about this. As far as I've gathered, there's some good precedence for my rights to record, but it still seems like it could go either way.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 12, 2011, 05:56:13 AM
So far only oakland has fucked with the media/citizen journalist.

I've been wanting to dress up like gonzo and visit tacoma
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 12, 2011, 06:28:25 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 12, 2011, 05:56:13 AM
So far only oakland has fucked with the media/citizen journalist.

I've been wanting to dress up like gonzo and visit tacoma

Oakland protesters are on their way to Portland though, according to the word on the street as well as that police news release.

Last time Oakland came to Portland the cops threatened a building owner with bullshit charges and shut a gallery down. Because Oakland graffiti art belongs on the street, not a gallery!

Even the perception of Oakland protesters being there in significant numbers is enough for Portland police to shit cinder blocks on people's heads.

I think it's safe to say we're going to see a shitstorm and my recording of it is not going to be welcome.

This is probably why our mayor sounded like he was going to cry halfway through the announcement.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on November 12, 2011, 07:37:13 AM
I'm resting up tonight, but I'll be down there tomorrow too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 12, 2011, 12:47:48 PM
Dammit, I don't get in until late Sunday night. I'll definitely be down there on monday though, if there's anything left ot be down there for.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on November 12, 2011, 02:02:52 PM
are any news channels providing decent coverage of the occupy stuff?

i only get PBS on my antenna but would like to be able to go somewhere to watch shit unfold on TV.

or is the media still ignoring this stuff?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2011, 04:27:27 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 12, 2011, 06:28:25 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 12, 2011, 05:56:13 AM
So far only oakland has fucked with the media/citizen journalist.

I've been wanting to dress up like gonzo and visit tacoma

Oakland protesters are on their way to Portland though, according to the word on the street as well as that police news release.

Last time Oakland came to Portland the cops threatened a building owner with bullshit charges and shut a gallery down. Because Oakland graffiti art belongs on the street, not a gallery!

Even the perception of Oakland protesters being there in significant numbers is enough for Portland police to shit cinder blocks on people's heads.

I think it's safe to say we're going to see a shitstorm and my recording of it is not going to be welcome.

This is probably why our mayor sounded like he was going to cry halfway through the announcement.

The only thing keeping the Portland protests under control was that Adams decided to cooperate. Yes, the camp is a disgusting den of hippies and anarchists, but ousting them was a bad bad bad move. Glad I don't live downtown.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 12, 2011, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 12, 2011, 04:42:46 AM
www.portlandonline.com/police/pbnotify.cfm?action=ViewContent&content_id=2592

Really boards with nails?

The police claim that they are committed to it remaining peaceful pisses me off.  As if they intend to refrain from the use of violent force if the protesters refuse to disperse.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 12, 2011, 05:58:03 PM
Guess we will see whose X and whose MLK..

Quote from: Laughin Jude on November 12, 2011, 07:37:13 AM
I'm resting up tonight, but I'll be down there tomorrow too.

Considering.. pdx has a major event, n17, up its sleeve
its best move would be to suddenly vanish to the countryside and come back in full force five days later
Tho that would only work with secure comms, or huge numbers... which reminds me seattle took a building last night, need to read up on it


Ps I got interviewed tinyurl.com/occupyfnord
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2011, 06:39:59 PM
Nice!

So, what I want to know is... why are we not Occupying our legislature buildings?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 12, 2011, 06:48:26 PM
The legislator's office would be a better place to leave the anarchists.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2011, 06:50:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2011, 06:48:26 PM
The legislator's office would be a better place to leave the anarchists.

:potd:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 12, 2011, 06:53:08 PM
But seriously, I don't get it either.  I mean, sure the bankers are greedy, amoral and criminal fucks.  We all know that.

The only way they're ever going to be held to account is by putting pressure on politicians, though.  I expect bankers to be what they are, much in the way I expect a newborn puppy to shit on the carpet.  However, the politicians are meant to clean up the mess, not give the puppy laxatives and leave a bag's worth of doggy treats open and in plain sight.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2011, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2011, 06:53:08 PM
But seriously, I don't get it either.  I mean, sure the bankers are greedy, amoral and criminal fucks.  We all know that.

The only way they're ever going to be held to account is by putting pressure on politicians, though.  I expect bankers to be what they are, much in the way I expect a newborn puppy to shit on the carpet.  However, the politicians are meant to clean up the mess, not give the puppy laxatives and leave a bag's worth of doggy treats open and in plain sight.

Yep. It's supposed to be our representatives in government making sure we don't get screwed by handing the keys to the castle to thieves. Protesting Wall Street is like small businessowners in 1930's Chicago protesting the Mafia, only with fewer shop fires and disappearances. 

Hey criminals! We don't like you!

They don't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 12, 2011, 07:33:10 PM
I'm sure as soon as they do feel threatened, on the other hand, we'll see violence on a level that will make Kabul look like a plausible place to buy property.

30% of veterans are unemployed, incidentally.  Not quite Weimar Germany levels yet, but not far off.  Income inequality is worse in the USA than it is in Egypt, Bangladesh, Yemen and Algeria.  Something will have to give.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2011, 08:08:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2011, 07:33:10 PM
I'm sure as soon as they do feel threatened, on the other hand, we'll see violence on a level that will make Kabul look like a plausible place to buy property.

30% of veterans are unemployed, incidentally.  Not quite Weimar Germany levels yet, but not far off.  Income inequality is worse in the USA than it is in Egypt, Bangladesh, Yemen and Algeria.  Something will have to give.

Yeah, I kind of wonder how that's going to play out, because I don't see this thing just dissipating, which is what I think the politicians were hoping.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on November 12, 2011, 08:18:00 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they try to wait them out through the winter.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 12, 2011, 10:07:19 PM
Over 10,000 people at Occupy protests in Berlin and Frankfurt.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 13, 2011, 12:15:52 AM
QuoteJay-Z was photographed wearing the "Occupy All Streets" shirts earlier this week and began selling them on his website. Checking the site today ... the shirts are now gone.

Before the t-shirts were pulled ... TMZ spoke with Grim, one of the leaders of the Occupy movement, who told us, "Jay-Z, as talented as he is, has the political sensibility of a hood rat and is a scrotum. To attempt to profit off of the first important social moment of 50 years with an overpriced piece of cotton is an insult to the fight for economic civil rights known as #occupywallstreet."

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2011, 12:18:25 AM
Jay-Z in "canny attempt to make money" shocker.

I mean, sure, it's not like he needs any more, but it doesn't count as a dick move when you expect it.  Also "first important social moment of 50 years"....LOL. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 13, 2011, 01:18:11 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 13, 2011, 12:18:25 AM
Jay-Z in "canny attempt to make money" shocker.

I mean, sure, it's not like he needs any more, but it doesn't count as a dick move when you expect it.  Also "first important social moment of 50 years"....LOL. 

I like how he pulled the shirts immediately. Shrewd.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2011, 01:21:23 AM
I now want to buy one...just to piss humourless lefties like "Grim" off.  And how apt a name is that?

OCCUPY IS SRS BIZNESS.  NOT SO SRS WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO COMMENT ON JAY-Z THO.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 13, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
occupy olympia later in the month for special session... also some talkin about fucking with walmart on black friday
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 13, 2011, 11:16:52 AM
 :lulz:  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Xy0hWAHx8)

Kptv & kgw have feeds on internets as well as livestream with its choppy feed
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 13, 2011, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 13, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
occupy olympia later in the month for special session... also some talkin about fucking with walmart on black friday

Occupy Olympia? :lulz:

what's next, Occupy Cle Elum?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2011, 04:24:06 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 13, 2011, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 13, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
occupy olympia later in the month for special session... also some talkin about fucking with walmart on black friday

Occupy Olympia? :lulz:

what's next, Occupy Cle Elum?

It actually makes a lot more sense than Occupying Seattle, because that's where the Washington legislature convenes. However, I think they convene in February, so that would be the time to do it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 13, 2011, 04:26:54 PM
Seems like Occupy Portland won a temporary victory, for now...

I'll post pictures after I get some rest.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on November 13, 2011, 04:41:12 PM
Here's a little smackerel of something less than tasty. (about 60 miles north of the doggy heir apparent).

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20111110/UPDATES01/111110004/Old-Town-Fort-Collins-arson-suspect-maintains-innocence?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

Word on the street is not just guessing at another guy it's pretty damned definitive (at least so far as 4 people, all in the neighborhood at the time, all part of the OFC, all familiar with both the arrested and the alleged, repeating the same story is "definitive"). Not sure if there are conflicts of interest, but the two of the four of them that I know beyond the OFC thing (which the other dude is also loosely associated with), there isn't. Cops aren't buying. Very curious.

At least the news coverage is sufficiently infuriating. LOOK HE'S SMILING, THAT SON OF A BITCH NON-REPENTANT BASTARD IS SMILING!!! One of the TV reports actual said verbatim-ish, "There's a lot we don't know about this case, but what we know for sure is that Gilmore was seen smiling at his initial court appearance. And that would be the only revelation in that story."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2011, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 13, 2011, 04:26:54 PM
Seems like Occupy Portland won a temporary victory, for now...

I'll post pictures after I get some rest.

Right on!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2011, 09:32:28 PM
Watching the live feed, it looks like things may be escalating.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 13, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 13, 2011, 09:32:28 PM
Watching the live feed, it looks like things may be escalating.

Yeah, I just got woken up by a call from my friend.

I'm about to head back down.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 14, 2011, 12:06:46 AM
Before I go, here are two shots of the situation at about 6 or 7am.

It seems the protesters buckled around 8am since too many people left. I left at a 7:45am due to wearing dress shoes that started to cause severe pain in my feet, which I didn't know would happen as I've never worn them and stood on my feet for 8 hours straight.

:sad:

(http://i.imgur.com/CYGlm.jpg)
Full size image (http://i.imgur.com/CYGlm.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/Xm4Bb.jpg)
Full size image (http://i.imgur.com/Xm4Bb.jpg)

ETA: I have video of the preceding situation, where the cops asked the crowd that was covering that intersection to clear the road and "go to the sidewalks or into the park". A few minutes later they did.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 14, 2011, 01:54:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 13, 2011, 04:24:06 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 13, 2011, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 13, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
occupy olympia later in the month for special session... also some talkin about fucking with walmart on black friday

Occupy Olympia? :lulz:

what's next, Occupy Cle Elum?

It actually makes a lot more sense than Occupying Seattle, because that's where the Washington legislature convenes. However, I think they convene in February, so that would be the time to do it.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/11/08/a-nov-28-march-to-make-it-a-peoples-special-session-in-olympia

If there's an occupy everett & occupy wenatchee...

Lol http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/668887/wall_street_bank_protests_spread%3B_%22pay_us_back%22_actions_begin_today/
first of 10 direct actions will take place on September 20-21 at Suncadia, a mountain resort near Cle Elum, WA, where The Association of Washington Business (the statewide chamber of commerce) will be holding their annual policy summit. Two hundred low- and middle-income people allied with Washington Community Action Network will demand that banks, corporations and wealthy individuals pay their fair share of taxes
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 14, 2011, 12:50:39 PM
Here's the video preceding those photographs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3B8idZMIMk

"Good morning..."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 14, 2011, 01:16:35 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 14, 2011, 12:50:39 PM
Here's the video preceding those photographs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3B8idZMIMk

"Good morning..."

Good morning.

This was cool.  I hate what the officer was saying near the beginning,

"If you remain in the roadway and show intent to engage in physical resistance to removal, or if emergency circumstances require, you may be subject to the use of force including chemical agents and impact weapons."

What emergency circumstances could possibly require or be made better by hurting innocent civilians?  :evilmad:  The good news is that the crowds did manage to prevent them from having their little pretext.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 14, 2011, 04:25:30 PM
I'm starting to see this whole thing as a war between different myths.

The 99%/1% myth (which has entirely incorrect numbers -- but a myth operates independently of its literal truth and depends only on the strength of the narrative's draw, which is very strong in this one) started out as an Adbusters thing, which makes sense. It was the core myth around which this franchise TAZ sprung up, though a lot of other small-scale myths of varying degrees of crazy formed satellites around it and rode the movement (at Occupy New Haven, I saw a guy with a sign saying "STOP CHEMTRAILS", presumably unironically).

The major competitor, which I've seen independently in several neocon-types (and which is quite firmly lodged in the core of the recent Frank Miller rant) is that the protesters are not only politically subversive (that's kind of the point of a protest, and you can't blame a protest for being effective) but somehow sapping power from 'more important things' (typically, the myth is of the form wherein the protesters are seen to be universally unemployed but also universally rich, tying into Regan's favourite 'welfare queen' myth, and are leeching off the economy in some unspecified way -- though Miller claims that they are also getting in the way of the Global War on Terror, which he apparently believes is still happening in some meaningful way, and several people pushing this myth in an academic sphere in my general vicinity have blamed the protesters for expanding the higher education bubble by majoring in some subject the speaker considers to be of no practical use).

So, the two myths each portray the initiators of the other as useless leaches on society. It's funny how strongly they mirror each other.

Anyhow, myth matters only in how it shapes action. I could see a weird symbiosis occurring between these two myths, the way the various myths in the american two-party system have this perverted codependency.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 04:52:21 PM
Quote from: eax on November 14, 2011, 04:25:30 PM
I'm starting to see this whole thing as a war between different myths.

The 99%/1% myth (which has entirely incorrect numbers -- but a myth operates independently of its literal truth and depends only on the strength of the narrative's draw, which is very strong in this one) started out as an Adbusters thing, which makes sense. It was the core myth around which this franchise TAZ sprung up, though a lot of other small-scale myths of varying degrees of crazy formed satellites around it and rode the movement (at Occupy New Haven, I saw a guy with a sign saying "STOP CHEMTRAILS", presumably unironically).

The major competitor, which I've seen independently in several neocon-types (and which is quite firmly lodged in the core of the recent Frank Miller rant) is that the protesters are not only politically subversive (that's kind of the point of a protest, and you can't blame a protest for being effective) but somehow sapping power from 'more important things' (typically, the myth is of the form wherein the protesters are seen to be universally unemployed but also universally rich, tying into Regan's favourite 'welfare queen' myth, and are leeching off the economy in some unspecified way -- though Miller claims that they are also getting in the way of the Global War on Terror, which he apparently believes is still happening in some meaningful way, and several people pushing this myth in an academic sphere in my general vicinity have blamed the protesters for expanding the higher education bubble by majoring in some subject the speaker considers to be of no practical use).

So, the two myths each portray the initiators of the other as useless leaches on society. It's funny how strongly they mirror each other.

Anyhow, myth matters only in how it shapes action. I could see a weird symbiosis occurring between these two myths, the way the various myths in the american two-party system have this perverted codependency.

Frank Miller is a putz.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 14, 2011, 05:08:27 PM
I know it's kind of un-maybe-logic to say, but one of these Myths is definitely being Less Wrong than the other.

And really how can there be "welfare queens" in the US if you can't even get a proper healthcare system together?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 14, 2011, 05:08:27 PM
I know it's kind of un-maybe-logic to say, but one of these Myths is definitely being Less Wrong than the other.

And really how can there be "welfare queens" in the US if you can't even get a proper healthcare system together?

Reagan admitted that he made up seeing these "Welfare Queens", but went on to say that he knew they existed.

The general public, of course, ate that shit up, for the obvious reason.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on November 14, 2011, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 14, 2011, 05:08:27 PM
I know it's kind of un-maybe-logic to say, but one of these Myths is definitely being Less Wrong than the other.

And really how can there be "welfare queens" in the US if you can't even get a proper healthcare system together?

A good way to combat the welfare queen myth is to point out that the unemployment rate for Vets is 22%. Gee our military sure churns out some lazy sacks of shit, too bad there wasnt a lesson on pulling yourself up by your bootstraps in basic training.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2011, 05:20:38 PM
It is possible, over here, to take vast sums of money from the welfare system.  However, I am 99% convinced it is a case of, when it does happen, of the people involved not doing their jobs properly (everything is means tested...which is retarded, as the means testing frequently costs more than the actual welfare payments), and 99% of the time you hear about it happening, it being bullshit invented by a tabloid.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 14, 2011, 07:20:13 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 14, 2011, 01:16:35 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 14, 2011, 12:50:39 PM
Here's the video preceding those photographs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3B8idZMIMk

"Good morning..."

Good morning.

This was cool.  I hate what the officer was saying near the beginning,

"If you remain in the roadway and show intent to engage in physical resistance to removal, or if emergency circumstances require, you may be subject to the use of force including chemical agents and impact weapons."

What emergency circumstances could possibly require or be made better by hurting innocent civilians?  :evilmad:  The good news is that the crowds did manage to prevent them from having their little pretext.

An ambulance or firetruck having to come through would be an emergency that would require getting the civilians out of the road immediately.  Teargas and batons don't strike me as the most efficient way to get the people out of the road, but that's almost undoubtedly what the cops meant. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 14, 2011, 07:25:56 PM
Quote from: eax on November 14, 2011, 04:25:30 PM
I'm starting to see this whole thing as a war between different myths.

The 99%/1% myth (which has entirely incorrect numbers -- but a myth operates independently of its literal truth and depends only on the strength of the narrative's draw, which is very strong in this one) started out as an Adbusters thing, which makes sense. It was the core myth around which this franchise TAZ sprung up, though a lot of other small-scale myths of varying degrees of crazy formed satellites around it and rode the movement (at Occupy New Haven, I saw a guy with a sign saying "STOP CHEMTRAILS", presumably unironically).

The major competitor, which I've seen independently in several neocon-types (and which is quite firmly lodged in the core of the recent Frank Miller rant) is that the protesters are not only politically subversive (that's kind of the point of a protest, and you can't blame a protest for being effective) but somehow sapping power from 'more important things' (typically, the myth is of the form wherein the protesters are seen to be universally unemployed but also universally rich, tying into Regan's favourite 'welfare queen' myth, and are leeching off the economy in some unspecified way -- though Miller claims that they are also getting in the way of the Global War on Terror, which he apparently believes is still happening in some meaningful way, and several people pushing this myth in an academic sphere in my general vicinity have blamed the protesters for expanding the higher education bubble by majoring in some subject the speaker considers to be of no practical use).

So, the two myths each portray the initiators of the other as useless leaches on society. It's funny how strongly they mirror each other.

Anyhow, myth matters only in how it shapes action. I could see a weird symbiosis occurring between these two myths, the way the various myths in the american two-party system have this perverted codependency.

90/10 would probably be a more accurate split than 99/1, the 1% don't own the majority of the wealth, the 10% do, but that's only a 9 percent error, that's less than the margin of error on most polls.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on November 14, 2011, 08:01:02 PM
It wasn't the 1% that fucked the economy. It was the 0.0001%
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:05:20 PM
The richest 500 people have more than the poorest 3.5 billion.

Percentages?  Who the fuck needs 'em?  We just need to feed those 500 people to the poorest people, and then go about our business.

Where the hell is Maximilien Robespierre, now that we finally need him?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".

Reminds me of the anti-war protests back in 03/04.  Everyone has to pimp out their own pet projects, and the original message be damned.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:23:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".

Reminds me of the anti-war protests back in 03/04.  Everyone has to pimp out their own pet projects, and the original message be damned.

Yep. It brings out all the zealots and their "my personal army" mentality.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:27:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:23:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".

Reminds me of the anti-war protests back in 03/04.  Everyone has to pimp out their own pet projects, and the original message be damned.

Yep. It brings out all the zealots and their "my personal army" mentality.

Fortunately, it is a disease no longer restricted to liberals.  The teabaggers have developed a hell of a case of it themselves.

But still, it's not even funny, anymore.  It's pathetic in the way that makes you angry and sick, rather than sympathetic.  If they can't even stay on fucking message in a demonstration, then what hope is there?

Oh, yeah.  None.  And OWS will turn out to be just another collection of useless whining hipsters, standing around arguing about who has been "committed to the cause" the longest...Like listening to assholes argue about whether "old Aerosmith" was superior to "new Aerosmith".   It makes me want to punch them in the spleen.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:27:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:23:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".

Reminds me of the anti-war protests back in 03/04.  Everyone has to pimp out their own pet projects, and the original message be damned.

Yep. It brings out all the zealots and their "my personal army" mentality.

Fortunately, it is a disease no longer restricted to liberals.  The teabaggers have developed a hell of a case of it themselves.

But still, it's not even funny, anymore.  It's pathetic in the way that makes you angry and sick, rather than sympathetic.  If they can't even stay on fucking message in a demonstration, then what hope is there?

Oh, yeah.  None.  And OWS will turn out to be just another collection of useless whining hipsters, standing around arguing about who has been "committed to the cause" the longest...Like listening to assholes argue about whether "old Aerosmith" was superior to "new Aerosmith".   It makes me want to punch them in the spleen.

Yeah. I was hopeful for a while but I don't know whether to bother being hopeful anymore.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:27:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:23:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".

Reminds me of the anti-war protests back in 03/04.  Everyone has to pimp out their own pet projects, and the original message be damned.

Yep. It brings out all the zealots and their "my personal army" mentality.

Fortunately, it is a disease no longer restricted to liberals.  The teabaggers have developed a hell of a case of it themselves.

But still, it's not even funny, anymore.  It's pathetic in the way that makes you angry and sick, rather than sympathetic.  If they can't even stay on fucking message in a demonstration, then what hope is there?

Oh, yeah.  None.  And OWS will turn out to be just another collection of useless whining hipsters, standing around arguing about who has been "committed to the cause" the longest...Like listening to assholes argue about whether "old Aerosmith" was superior to "new Aerosmith".   It makes me want to punch them in the spleen.

Yeah. I was hopeful for a while but I don't know whether to bother being hopeful anymore.

I called this, back when this started.

On the other hand, people are still going out, even after the weather's turned cold.

I'm still hopeful, but not terribly optimistic.  That's a subtle difference, I know, but there you have it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:39:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:27:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:23:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
I must share this story told by Ludwig:

QuoteAs we drove by this morning there was a single woebegone elderly man standing by the cyclone fences that now encircle the fields of bare dirt that used to be the park blocks. He was holding a handmade cardboard sign reading, "SAVE THE WHALES".

Reminds me of the anti-war protests back in 03/04.  Everyone has to pimp out their own pet projects, and the original message be damned.

Yep. It brings out all the zealots and their "my personal army" mentality.

Fortunately, it is a disease no longer restricted to liberals.  The teabaggers have developed a hell of a case of it themselves.

But still, it's not even funny, anymore.  It's pathetic in the way that makes you angry and sick, rather than sympathetic.  If they can't even stay on fucking message in a demonstration, then what hope is there?

Oh, yeah.  None.  And OWS will turn out to be just another collection of useless whining hipsters, standing around arguing about who has been "committed to the cause" the longest...Like listening to assholes argue about whether "old Aerosmith" was superior to "new Aerosmith".   It makes me want to punch them in the spleen.

Yeah. I was hopeful for a while but I don't know whether to bother being hopeful anymore.

I called this, back when this started.

On the other hand, people are still going out, even after the weather's turned cold.

I'm still hopeful, but not terribly optimistic.  That's a subtle difference, I know, but there you have it.

There are two things going on in NY, which might be promising. One is the march on Washington DC (finally, really it took this long?) and the other is the stated intention of shutting down the NYSE on the 17th. Who the hell knows? It's at a point where it will either escalate or dissipate.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:39:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

Once I heard they'd formed committees, I sort of started treating it as entertainment.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:40:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:39:21 PM
There are two things going on in NY, which might be promising. One is the march on Washington DC (finally, really it took this long?) and the other is the stated intention of shutting down the NYSE on the 17th. Who the hell knows? It's at a point where it will either escalate or dissipate.

I'll be watching the NYSE one.  Oh, yes.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.

It's also a chance for hipsters to have lots and lots of people listen to their wisdom of the ages.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on November 14, 2011, 09:44:08 PM
I drove past the Occupy Tucson yesterday.  It was rainy and miserable, but there were still people there.

Nobody was out, and just a few signs, though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.

It's also a chance for hipsters to have lots and lots of people listen to their wisdom of the ages.



Fucking idiots.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:46:27 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.

It's also a chance for hipsters to have lots and lots of people listen to their wisdom of the ages.



Fucking idiots.

Every tallbike yahoo lining up to be the next Abbie Hoffman.

:lulz:

This species is doomed.  DOOMED.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:47:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:46:27 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.

It's also a chance for hipsters to have lots and lots of people listen to their wisdom of the ages.



Fucking idiots.

Every tallbike yahoo lining up to be the next Abbie Hoffman.

:lulz:

This species is doomed.  DOOMED.

The sooner the better, hopefully without taking too many more other species with us.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:48:02 PM
They do kinda have representatives....only they're the same kind of left-liberal "socially conscious" bullshit artists who've run every kind of major protest for the past two decades.  IOW, useless losers.  People whose experience would suggest they were unfit to run a stall, let alone a protest movement.  People who, to put it bluntly, keep on failing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:49:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:48:02 PM
They do kinda have representatives....only they're the same kind of left-liberal "socially conscious" bullshit artists who've run every kind of major protest for the past two decades.  IOW, useless losers.  People whose experience would suggest they were unfit to run a stall, let alone a protest movement.  People who, to put it bluntly, keep on failing.

Yeah, I can't help noticing that the World Trade Organization is still in business.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:54:29 PM
People say I'm too cynical and that Lenin didn't demolish Russian autocracy in a day.

Which is true, but, and lets be honest here, these peeps aint exactly Lenin, are they?  Though, amazingly, the protestors are doing a rather good impression of the Bolsheviks circa March 1917, aimlessly milling around with several dozen uncoherent ideas about how to move forward.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:56:53 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:54:29 PM
People say I'm too cynical and that Lenin didn't demolish Russian autocracy in a day.

Which is true, but, and lets be honest here, these peeps aint exactly Lenin, are they?  Though, amazingly, the protestors are doing a rather good impression of the Bolsheviks circa March 1917, aimlessly milling around with several dozen uncoherent ideas about how to move forward.

It's more like watching Argentina just before Peron, but with everyone on Valium.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freckleback on November 14, 2011, 10:57:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.

It's also a chance for hipsters to have lots and lots of people listen to their wisdom of the ages.



THIS.
Watching those GA's is fucking painful.  The last one they held in the par took them like an hour to figure out what to do for all the people who's tents were destroyed and had nowhere to go.  Not to mention the one they held wile in a standoff with the fucking cops.

I thought the point of peaceful protests was to get the police to publicly brutalize the shit out of you until your numbers swelled enough to take it not the next level.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 14, 2011, 11:58:27 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 14, 2011, 07:20:13 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 14, 2011, 01:16:35 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 14, 2011, 12:50:39 PM
Here's the video preceding those photographs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3B8idZMIMk

"Good morning..."

Good morning.

This was cool.  I hate what the officer was saying near the beginning,

"If you remain in the roadway and show intent to engage in physical resistance to removal, or if emergency circumstances require, you may be subject to the use of force including chemical agents and impact weapons."

What emergency circumstances could possibly require or be made better by hurting innocent civilians?  :evilmad:  The good news is that the crowds did manage to prevent them from having their little pretext.

An ambulance or firetruck having to come through would be an emergency that would require getting the civilians out of the road immediately.  Teargas and batons don't strike me as the most efficient way to get the people out of the road, but that's almost undoubtedly what the cops meant. 

I hate the symbolism of it all!  Chemicals and impact weapons are how you manage vermin.

_______________________

There's plenty of reason to hope this will become more of an impact upon the system.  This will take time, persistence.  I personally do not care if the hipsters, or what ever, have an effect.  I do not care if the whole thing turns into "Save the Whales" bullshit.  The thing I care about right now as concerns this is that people stay ANGRY and ACTIVE.  I would prefer that they also stay smart and non-violent, but that's a lot to hope for.  I want this thing to still be rolling when the elections start next year.  So what if the people involved have a silly 90% decision making system?  It's still more interesting and effective than no activity at all.  Eventually there will be more iconic moments that are totally impossible to suppress.  What the movement currently lacks is a resounding sympathetic resonance with the rest of the people that have not engaged with it. 

It's not even an AMERICAN movement in truth.  It's a GLOBAL FUCK YOU!!!!! to the folks that have the reins in hand and have jerked the world around!  We shall see what comes of it, maybe nothing good at all. 

I don't want the controllers to think they have some sort of silent consent when the hammer falls.  I want them to find that you cannot smash a puddle and expect results.  There's real venom and acid in that puddle.  And they don't own the hammer, it's a rental.  It's OUR  system and OUR world. 

We share it like it or not. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on November 15, 2011, 03:14:11 AM
Quote from: nihilbilly on November 14, 2011, 10:57:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 14, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
Internet-driven attention deficit disorder.

"Fight the power, we got to fight the po- *NEWS CYCLE CHANGES*...OMG this [new outrage] outrages me.  To the twittermobile!"

Also, "consensus decision making".  Because what that means is, you can't police the protests and chuck people out unless everyone agrees, and some retard will always say "but we need more people, we're a big tent".

To which I can only respond: fuck you, if the save the whale people are the only ones standing between us and neo-serfdom for a thousand years, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

The consensus bullshit was a terrible idea. The only way consensus decision making works is if you have a fairly static group or if you do consensus via representation.

It's also a chance for hipsters to have lots and lots of people listen to their wisdom of the ages.



THIS.
Watching those GA's is fucking painful.  The last one they held in the par took them like an hour to figure out what to do for all the people who's tents were destroyed and had nowhere to go.  Not to mention the one they held wile in a standoff with the fucking cops.

I thought the point of peaceful protests was to get the police to publicly brutalize the shit out of you until your numbers swelled enough to take it not the next level.
Partly. And the cops got smarter about that, a little bit. I don't think any of the arrested protestors are going to be scrubbed with steel wool by prison guards these days.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freckleback on November 15, 2011, 06:46:41 AM
nyc being evicted again.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2011, 12:55:46 PM
Sounds like the Berkeley protest went to shit, as well. 

http://crookedtimber.org/2011/11/14/occupy-berkeley/

Quote...The person on the left is a colleague of mine, and I've seen his swollen hand and watched him limp and talked to him about what happened. I saw how physically shaken up he was, several hours after being beaten, and I went with a friend to get an Ace bandage for his hand. On the right, you can see someone I know who acquired several cracked ribs. I could go on. Or this video, in which you see the police yanking the director of the Townsend Center for the Humanities to the ground by her hair, applying choke-holds with batons, and punching people in the face.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on November 15, 2011, 01:32:37 PM
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Luna on November 15, 2011, 02:01:02 PM
Heard this morning that Occupy Providence is working with the city.  City needs to get into the park to dowhatever needs to be done to the sprinklers for winter, so they're moving the protest to the sidewalks and off the grass.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 15, 2011, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on November 15, 2011, 01:32:37 PM
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.

I think of the "OURS" part as being about integration.  There is no system. There are numbers of people behaving in certain ways that may or may not actually conform to what they "should' be doing.  The trouble with the "Who's streets? OUR streets" type slogans is that it implies "ours not yours" instead of "all of ours."  The thing that I really DON'T like about Occupy and the 99% vs. 1% conception is that it implies that there's a real division among the classes.  There isn't.  There's a mismanagement crisis.  We in America supposedly have something like an "Open Door" policy.  The truth is that the folks "on the floor" distrust, and the folks "in the office" don't listen.

This state of affairs allows a communication gap that is inevitable to some degree and has been maintained and widened by those that are dishonest and have something to gain by it.  People are not as stupid and ignorant, or craven, as some of the generalizations around here would seem to indicate.  Some of them are, to be sure, but the majority really do have the ability to get their shit together and effect change.  The "corruption at the top" vision is totally subjective propaganda intended to strip individuals of hope and make them feel small and powerless. 

A human that is fully functional is rarely powerless. Even if you face inevitable death you have the power to meet it like a samurai or spend your last few moments despairing because you can't stop something inevitable.

There is only the totality of the people, not some numerical division by percentage.  What needs doing is the exposure of corruption and elimination of apathy.  This is not about economics, it's a "spiritual" process.  The resistance by the Occupy people is still young and simple, but it represents the exercise of power by people that really want to do something.  That's important. Even if it's still developing it represents an erosion of the apathetic sate that has allowed things to get as bad as they have.  Even if the whole thing proves ineffectual, or even disastrous, at least it's something being tried. 

Occupy is only the beginning, I think, either of the end of this current corruption or of a more effective means to shout out to the office that they need to stop stealing from the company and help fix the equipment before there's nothing left to steal.

___________________________________________

Of course there's always resistance to change.  Check this out! OWS got it bad.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/ (http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on November 15, 2011, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 15, 2011, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on November 15, 2011, 01:32:37 PM
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.

I think of the "OURS" part as being about integration.  There is no system. There are numbers of people behaving in certain ways that may or may not actually conform to what they "should' be doing.  The trouble with the "Who's streets? OUR streets" type slogans is that it implies "ours not yours" instead of "all of ours."  The thing that I really DON'T like about Occupy and the 99% vs. 1% conception is that it implies that there's a real division among the classes.  There isn't.  There's a mismanagement crisis.  We in America supposedly have something like an "Open Door" policy.  The truth is that the folks "on the floor" distrust, and the folks "in the office" don't listen.

This state of affairs allows a communication gap that is inevitable to some degree and has been maintained and widened by those that are dishonest and have something to gain by it.  People are not as stupid and ignorant, or craven, as some of the generalizations around here would seem to indicate.  Some of them are, to be sure, but the majority really do have the ability to get their shit together and effect change.  The "corruption at the top" vision is totally subjective propaganda intended to strip individuals of hope and make them feel small and powerless. 

A human that is fully functional is rarely powerless. Even if you face inevitable death you have the power to meet it like a samurai or spend your last few moments despairing because you can't stop something inevitable.

There is only the totality of the people, not some numerical division by percentage.  What needs doing is the exposure of corruption and elimination of apathy.  This is not about economics, it's a "spiritual" process.  The resistance by the Occupy people is still young and simple, but it represents the exercise of power by people that really want to do something.  That's important. Even if it's still developing it represents an erosion of the apathetic sate that has allowed things to get as bad as they have.  Even if the whole thing proves ineffectual, or even disastrous, at least it's something being tried. 

Occupy is only the beginning, I think, either of the end of this current corruption or of a more effective means to shout out to the office that they need to stop stealing from the company and help fix the equipment before there's nothing left to steal.

___________________________________________

Of course there's always resistance to change.  Check this out! OWS got it bad.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/ (http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/)

There very much is.

People are not fundamentally good. Some individual elites (those in the '1%') might be able to identify with and want to help alleviate the issues that the majority of people have to deal with. The majority do not.

As an example - during the credit crunch, some BBC reporters did an 'inside The City' report on bankers and why they get such ridiculous bonuses. The answer was that basically, a culture has sprung up in The City that your self worth = the amount of money you are earning. People would regularly, and not as a joke, say 'I am worth two of you' if they got a bonus twice the size of yours. Or three times. Or four times.

So, if the average wage is £24k, and you got a bonus of £1 million+ that means you are worth what, more than three dozen 'regular' people?

The people who benefit the most from the current system do not consider you to be a human being. They consider you an idiot at best (because, after all, you aren't earning anything like they are, and these people sincerely believe that doing so is simply a matter of smarts, skill and hard work) and a peasant at worst. The divides between these parts of society are very real, and the rich and powerful have identified it for a long time. They've already declared war on you.

But whilst people are willing to look the other way and utter platitudes like 'we're all in this together', they will keep cheerfully fucking you over. It isn't in their interest to do otherwise! If you are going to let them sell you and your family for the next six generations into slavery and serfdom in order to pay for them and their family to enjoy the lifestyle of the superrich, why the fuck would they do anything else?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 15, 2011, 03:58:38 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on November 15, 2011, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 15, 2011, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on November 15, 2011, 01:32:37 PM
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.

I think of the "OURS" part as being about integration.  There is no system. There are numbers of people behaving in certain ways that may or may not actually conform to what they "should' be doing.  The trouble with the "Who's streets? OUR streets" type slogans is that it implies "ours not yours" instead of "all of ours."  The thing that I really DON'T like about Occupy and the 99% vs. 1% conception is that it implies that there's a real division among the classes.  There isn't.  There's a mismanagement crisis.  We in America supposedly have something like an "Open Door" policy.  The truth is that the folks "on the floor" distrust, and the folks "in the office" don't listen.

This state of affairs allows a communication gap that is inevitable to some degree and has been maintained and widened by those that are dishonest and have something to gain by it.  People are not as stupid and ignorant, or craven, as some of the generalizations around here would seem to indicate.  Some of them are, to be sure, but the majority really do have the ability to get their shit together and effect change.  The "corruption at the top" vision is totally subjective propaganda intended to strip individuals of hope and make them feel small and powerless. 

A human that is fully functional is rarely powerless. Even if you face inevitable death you have the power to meet it like a samurai or spend your last few moments despairing because you can't stop something inevitable.

There is only the totality of the people, not some numerical division by percentage.  What needs doing is the exposure of corruption and elimination of apathy.  This is not about economics, it's a "spiritual" process.  The resistance by the Occupy people is still young and simple, but it represents the exercise of power by people that really want to do something.  That's important. Even if it's still developing it represents an erosion of the apathetic sate that has allowed things to get as bad as they have.  Even if the whole thing proves ineffectual, or even disastrous, at least it's something being tried. 

Occupy is only the beginning, I think, either of the end of this current corruption or of a more effective means to shout out to the office that they need to stop stealing from the company and help fix the equipment before there's nothing left to steal.

___________________________________________

Of course there's always resistance to change.  Check this out! OWS got it bad.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/ (http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/)

There very much is.

People are not fundamentally good. Some individual elites (those in the '1%') might be able to identify with and want to help alleviate the issues that the majority of people have to deal with. The majority do not.

As an example - during the credit crunch, some BBC reporters did an 'inside The City' report on bankers and why they get such ridiculous bonuses. The answer was that basically, a culture has sprung up in The City that your self worth = the amount of money you are earning. People would regularly, and not as a joke, say 'I am worth two of you' if they got a bonus twice the size of yours. Or three times. Or four times.

So, if the average wage is £24k, and you got a bonus of £1 million+ that means you are worth what, more than three dozen 'regular' people?

The people who benefit the most from the current system do not consider you to be a human being
. They consider you an idiot at best (because, after all, you aren't earning anything like they are, and these people sincerely believe that doing so is simply a matter of smarts, skill and hard work) and a peasant at worst. The divides between these parts of society are very real, and the rich and powerful have identified it for a long time. They've already declared war on you.

But whilst people are willing to look the other way and utter platitudes like 'we're all in this together', they will keep cheerfully fucking you over. It isn't in their interest to do otherwise! If you are going to let them sell you and your family for the next six generations into slavery and serfdom in order to pay for them and their family to enjoy the lifestyle of the superrich, why the fuck would they do anything else?

So it would seem that they suffer from a delusion.  Maybe I do too.  The soul of these folks, their very being, can be entirely selfish.  I know this well.  I sure the fuck can be.  I'm not a Utopian Discordian.  I LOVE OMelets and rather than despair for broken eggs would give extra points for style, flavor, and speed of production.  As an aside I also would Never use a golden chamberpot unless I was about to trade it in at one of the "Cash for Gold" places ripping off the last bits of hard value in America, for the lulz not the cash.   

The problem is that the sustainable solution lies in the opposite direction from what is purely self interest. If the people at the top want to stay there then they need to have the merit necessary.  That merit is found in what is best for the most with the least waste.  There is a form of enlightened self-interest that needs to make only minor self sacrifice for considerable mutual gain.  The mad grasping for the interest of the self is far beyond the point of diminishing return for them.  They need to take SO MUCH for only minor gain for themselves at this point, and some fail to notice that the things and people that they need to continue in their conception of value provide far more value if functioning well. 

It's like the Charlton Heston quote out of "Moses"-"Healthy slaves make many bricks, the sick make few...the dead make none."  Goddamnit!  There comes a point when the old "Non Serviam" is no longer useful.  That's really just a way to say "I serve only myself."  Humanity does not function that way, and individuals barely do, and rarely well.  If the situation we are in necessitates a question of service, "Who?  How? Why? Etc", then it is necessary that the people that would be served realize they must likewise serve.  If they will not then the walls NEED to come down.  The foundation of the temple is already a ruin.  We built it.  If it comes down in a controlled fashion and we can spare the materials.. great!  For all of us.  If there's a fundamental madness that goes deeper than materialism, then tough shit for us all.  We will rebuild in the ruins.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2011, 07:32:30 PM
The OWS library was confiscated by the police

http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/892805-264/occupy_wall_street_library_removed.html.csp

Trashing libraries is not a good look, historically speaking
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2011, 07:35:52 PM
Ok, time to call the endgame.

Occupy ends:

1) Bloody beatdown by the cops.

2) Increased disinterest and frostbite of the protesters.

3) The plutocracy caves.   :roll:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kurt Christ on November 15, 2011, 07:44:13 PM
I call token concessions made once external factors (cops and cold) have done their part in the demoralization of protesters, effectively defusing the movement with minimal loss to bankers and politicians.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 15, 2011, 08:35:09 PM
I think it's still too early to call.

The thing is just starting up.  I'm betting you will definitely see "options" 1 and 2 come to pass but those are not endgames in and of themselves.

If the PTB want it to end then the Idea must be discredited, not the "Occupy" movement itself.  I think this unlikley, but for all I know it'll be done in time for a nice quiet holiday dinner before the new year.


Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2011, 07:32:30 PM
The OWS library was confiscated by the police

http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/892805-264/occupy_wall_street_library_removed.html.csp

Trashing libraries is not a good look, historically speaking

No, it's pretty common though.  What a terrible waste.   :sad:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 15, 2011, 08:39:42 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 07:35:52 PM
Ok, time to call the endgame.

Occupy ends:

1) Bloody beatdown by the cops.

2) Increased disinterest and frostbite of the protesters.

3) The plutocracy caves.   :roll:

I don't see any of those as very likely, and I don't think you've been following the movement very closely if you think the endgame is in sight:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/10/13/poll_occupy_wall_street_is_twice_as_popular_as_the_tea_party.html

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2011, 08:51:14 PM
You see people living in tents through the winter, and the various local governments stand idly by?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 15, 2011, 09:02:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 08:51:14 PM
You see people living in tents through the winter, and the various local governments stand idly by?

So you are equating popular support for Occupy with living in tents? If the tents go, widespread support for Occupy will just vanish?

And speaking of government's role in Occupy, Zuccotti Park protesters just got a court order to let them back in the park. (http://www.cnbc.com/id/45303217)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
You're reading too much into my post. I was referring to the actual people actually protesting, not the ideology or public support behind it.

- cops have started the beatings.
- protesters are forming pragmatically useless GAs.
- The media has begun compartimentalization and convenient labelling.
- Fringe left movements are trying to threadjack the OP.
- Winter Is Coming.

As Occupy now exists, it is unsustainable. Eventually, OWS will go home.

My question is, in what way will they go home?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 15, 2011, 09:56:45 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
You're reading too much into my post. I was referring to the actual people actually protesting, not the ideology or public support behind it.

- cops have started the beatings.
- protesters are forming pragmatically useless GAs.
- The media has begun compartimentalization and convenient labelling.
- Fringe left movements are trying to threadjack the OP.
- Winter Is Coming.

As Occupy now exists, it is unsustainable. Eventually, OWS will go home.

My question is, in what way will they go home?

Oh I see.   :wink:

I think those things are still the overture, hopefully they'll go home after a marvelous, disorderly crescendo.
Then get warm again and be back in force by early spring.  It's the marvelous thing to me about this whole thing.. the strategic flexibility.
They lose nothing if they get booted out of Zucotti park eventually. There will always be a sidewalk, somewhere,that they can disrupt things on.  Maybe they could take some of that money they've got and just lease a big chunk of space or hire a cleaning service so the government has less of a pretext to boot them next time.

If they last the winter and I can get the resources together I want to go to the heart of things and promote my business interests while documenting the movement from the inside.  Too damn broke right now though and will be moving in early January.  :argh!:

I think they'll still be around by the time I get myself prepped though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 15, 2011, 09:57:16 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
You're reading too much into my post. I was referring to the actual people actually protesting, not the ideology or public support behind it.

- cops have started the beatings.
- protesters are forming pragmatically useless GAs.
- The media has begun compartimentalization and convenient labelling.
- Fringe left movements are trying to threadjack the OP.
- Winter Is Coming.

As Occupy now exists, it is unsustainable. Eventually, OWS will go home.

My question is, in what way will they go home?

1 - The beatings have only garnered more sympathy for OWS and galvanized supporters.
2 - The GAs certainly have their drawbacks, but characterizing them as "pragmatically useless" ignores how GAs have effectively served as a public forum and a point of local coordination
3 - Yet Occupy enjoys twice the support of the Tea Party. Their most fundamental concerns have entered the global conversation in spite of the media's attempts to squelch it.
4 - Key words: "fringe" and "trying". This has had even less of an effect than the corporate media.
5 - Have you ever camped in the snow in February? I have. For 3 weeks straight without a generator, expensive equipment, or a continual flow of donated goods and services.

I understand your pessimism, but it's not very well-informed. Have you been to an Occupy encampment and actually talked with anyone there?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 15, 2011, 11:44:42 PM
Occupy Twilight?

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Occupy-movement-reaches-Twilight-home-of-Forks-133875848.html

This is easily the cutest of all the Occupy protests.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 15, 2011, 11:46:12 PM
Occupy is just starting. The people in the movement have problems, but the movement itself is not going away. There is no easy outcome.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 16, 2011, 12:09:19 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.

Not sure you're addressing me Dr. LMNO, but I think that OWS, specifically, may be forced to re-convene elsewhere.  I would be disappointed if they continue exactly as they are now by February, but I think the encampments will continue near Wall St. and elsewhere in NY. 

There is nothing quite like a forcible surprise eviction and seizure of one's stuff for raising hackles and making people want to dig in.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2011, 12:09:23 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.

LOLno. The camps have been pretty badly run from the beginning; adopted by anarchists and hippies with an unworkable blind consensus model. But the movement and the thinkers behind the movement are not at all done. The economy is not going to get better and people are not going to get happier.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2011, 12:10:59 AM
The main reason it's not going anywhere is because the userbase is endlessly refreshable, and because the System™ is visibly pushing back. The pushing back makes monkeys want to dig in their heels and screech.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 16, 2011, 12:25:58 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.

I'm not the one trying to predict the end of OWS. Don't try to foist your OWS eschatology onto me.

You also haven't answered the question of whether you've been to an encampment and talked with people.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on November 16, 2011, 01:47:29 AM
ALL this shit is making my brain hurt even more than before.

:argh!:


Yet I still cannot get off the damn fence.

Also-unrelated but related- N17
If any of yous are reading this and will be 'occupying', take a moment or so and remember the 17th of November, the uprising at polytechnic back in 73.

We've been protesting a LONG time...I see no dent anywhere.
:kingmeh:

Not trying to be pro or con for occupy or anything. Just stating what I see/feel/experience through this clusterfuck as it unfolds.

/hijack


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 16, 2011, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 16, 2011, 12:25:58 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.

I'm not the one trying to predict the end of OWS. Don't try to foist your OWS eschatology onto me.

You also haven't answered the question of whether you've been to an encampment and talked with people.

I see... So you don't want to answer my question, but instead expect me to accept a change of focus in my inquiries to appeal to your own narrative.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 16, 2011, 01:38:27 PM
Instead of hurting myself by slamming my head against my desk, I figured id invite you all to witness first hand the cluster fuck that is occupy seattle (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Seattle/254620607914006?refid=7)... started out well by holding down westlake, slowly its turning into a WBC knock off except instead of lawsuit money their goal: bad pr for SPD
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on November 16, 2011, 09:28:55 PM
(http://www.accelerated-degree.com/faceoff-occupy-wall-street-vs-tea-party-movement-infographic.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2011, 10:11:59 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 16, 2011, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 16, 2011, 12:25:58 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.

I'm not the one trying to predict the end of OWS. Don't try to foist your OWS eschatology onto me.

You also haven't answered the question of whether you've been to an encampment and talked with people.

I see... So you don't want to answer my question, but instead expect me to accept a change of focus in my inquiries to appeal to your own narrative.

I thought that question was directed at me, and I answered it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 16, 2011, 10:21:10 PM
That was an interesting (and funny) breakdown. I was especially interested in Newt Gingrich's attempt to piggyback the Tea Party into the Occupy movement.

One thing that occurred to me today is that if we the people decided to commit a little kamikaze action, we could hold the whole fucking country over a barrel by boycotting Christmas. Yes, it would fuck us ALL over, but it's one thing that might actually scare the political machine into taking action to separate corp from state. The Christmas shopping season is absolutely crucial to our economy.

We have the power to completely fuck everything.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on November 16, 2011, 11:41:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 16, 2011, 10:21:10 PM
That was an interesting (and funny) breakdown. I was especially interested in Newt Gingrich's attempt to piggyback the Tea Party into the Occupy movement.

One thing that occurred to me today is that if we the people decided to commit a little kamikaze action, we could hold the whole fucking country over a barrel by boycotting Christmas. Yes, it would fuck us ALL over, but it's one thing that might actually scare the political machine into taking action to separate corp from state. The Christmas shopping season is absolutely crucial to our economy.

We have the power to completely fuck everything.

So Occupy Walmart?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 17, 2011, 12:09:04 AM
i think if it was presented as a "boycott christmas" thing, then it would get little support from a great deal of people that would see it as a jesus-hating atheist hogwash.  If it were presented as a "homemade christmas" thing, then it might get a bit more support.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 17, 2011, 12:19:33 AM
Quote from: Pope Pastor Wolf-Something-Or-Other on November 16, 2011, 11:41:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 16, 2011, 10:21:10 PM
That was an interesting (and funny) breakdown. I was especially interested in Newt Gingrich's attempt to piggyback the Tea Party into the Occupy movement.

One thing that occurred to me today is that if we the people decided to commit a little kamikaze action, we could hold the whole fucking country over a barrel by boycotting Christmas. Yes, it would fuck us ALL over, but it's one thing that might actually scare the political machine into taking action to separate corp from state. The Christmas shopping season is absolutely crucial to our economy.

We have the power to completely fuck everything.

So Occupy Walmart?



More like, de-occupy wal-mart.

We could shut this fucker down if we had enough people on board. Complete economic hostage situation. "You fucks get corporation out of government and we'll start buying shit again".

It would be absolutely catastrophic for the economy. But it would work.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 17, 2011, 12:22:01 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 17, 2011, 12:09:04 AM
i think if it was presented as a "boycott christmas" thing, then it would get little support from a great deal of people that would see it as a jesus-hating atheist hogwash.  If it were presented as a "homemade christmas" thing, then it might get a bit more support.


Homemade Christmas, or present it as "You are already squeezed enough, celebrate Christmas by spending it with family and put the squeeze on the corporations that put you in this bind by rejecting the gift-giving aspect".

People already can't afford to do a gluttony of gift-giving... frame it as a patriotic act of protest, and it might even take hold.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 17, 2011, 12:36:15 AM
gift giving is to ingrained in us, i think.
spin it with the notion of giving crappy little gifts that people wouldn't actually want, but eventually will treasure.
maybe a 'made in the USA' spin, to boot? (this would almost guarantee homemade, anyways!  :lol:) it would dovetail with the patriotic aspect...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 17, 2011, 01:46:17 AM
 :lol: :hi5::lulz:

Cramulus that poster was the awesomeness! Wherever did that come from?  Ima spread it around.


Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 16, 2011, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 16, 2011, 12:25:58 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Just so I can get you saying it on the record, you think OWS will still be protesting in the way it is now in three months, that the three parties involved (OWS, cops, gvt) will find the status quo of sleeping in the park, et al, acceptable?


Because NYC isn't letting the tents back in.

I'm not the one trying to predict the end of OWS. Don't try to foist your OWS eschatology onto me.

You also haven't answered the question of whether you've been to an encampment and talked with people.

I see... So you don't want to answer my question, but instead expect me to accept a change of focus in my inquiries to appeal to your own narrative.


Gentlemen, GENTLEMEN.. please!  This is excellent intellectual jockeying, but it misses entirely the fundamental question most important to our freedom and future. 

Can you dance? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfbi3e68iwA)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 17, 2011, 01:51:24 AM
ALso...

LEAVE BABY JESUS ALONE!!!  Oh Please...  PLEASE!  How could anyone dare think of ditching Him for politics... After all he's been through...  PPLLLEEAASSEEE!!!

:crybaby:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 17, 2011, 02:57:14 AM
Christ.

Shut up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 17, 2011, 03:21:45 AM
Occupy Christmas.  I love it.

I've already seen this running around facebook actually.  Posters that say If you really want to bring the banks down give homemade gifts or buy from local crafters.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 17, 2011, 03:56:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 17, 2011, 02:57:14 AM
Christ.

Shut up.

I try to around you, not that I don't like you.  It just seems prudent.

Those last posts were pretty bad.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 17, 2011, 04:00:57 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 17, 2011, 03:56:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 17, 2011, 02:57:14 AM
Christ.

Shut up.

I try to around you, not that I don't like you.  It just seems prudent.

Those last posts were pretty bad.


Fortunately for you, Babylon Corpsefucker came along and deflected my Hate2.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 17, 2011, 04:14:12 AM
 :jebus:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on November 17, 2011, 07:01:23 PM
Ah Daily Show. 

Laughed so damn much at this last night.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided?xrs=synd_facebook
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on November 18, 2011, 03:56:13 AM
That infographic is great, Cram.  Thanks for finding and sharing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 18, 2011, 04:36:24 AM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on November 17, 2011, 07:01:23 PM
Ah Daily Show. 

Laughed so damn much at this last night.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided?xrs=synd_facebook

That's just great. 

Guess they learned
just how it burned
Rich and poor alike

too late now
'cuz Holy Chao
teargas knows no class
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on November 19, 2011, 03:14:56 AM
Didn't you hear about small business Saturday?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 19, 2011, 03:38:17 AM
Quote from: Brian Fnord on November 19, 2011, 03:14:56 AM
Didn't you hear about small business Saturday?

Who hasn't heard about it? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about economic warfare; holding the entire economy hostage by refusing to buy anything that's imported or mass-produced. Where do you think most small businesses get their merchandise?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 20, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/cA6z5.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 20, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
Irony alert, via the BBC

QuoteThe protest, on Friday, was in support of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

It was intended to show solidarity with protesters at another branch of the Univeristy of California, in Berkeley, who were hit with batons by police on 9 November.

Also, quickest way in the world to start a riot, that.  Which is probably why it was done.  Once people are rioting, you have every excuse in the world to go in, beat the crap out people and disperse them.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on November 20, 2011, 03:45:35 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/jha15.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FGujp.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 20, 2011, 04:10:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 20, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
Irony alert, via the BBC

QuoteThe protest, on Friday, was in support of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

It was intended to show solidarity with protesters at another branch of the Univeristy of California, in Berkeley, who were hit with batons by police on 9 November.

Also, quickest way in the world to start a riot, that.  Which is probably why it was done.  Once people are rioting, you have every excuse in the world to go in, beat the crap out people and disperse them.

I've noticed a lot more talk about rioting, besides the radicals that are there just waiting for the opportunity. It seems people are falling for the trick.

Do you have any resources I could share on the issue of the police/FBI/NSA provoking people into a riot? I've kept a low profile throughout this thing so I doubt I'll be trusted on my word alone.

I'd like to work up a flyer with references for people to check.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 20, 2011, 04:18:55 PM
Here's a recent one

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/28/scott-olsen-example-occupy-movement

QuoteWe're also seeing evidence of old-style tactics, such as releasing false information in the media and using agent provocateurs to plant evidence and instigate incidents to justify police conduct. One agent provocateur, whom organisers at Occupy Minnesota had been watching carefully, planted a box labelled "Riot Equipment. Needs: bricks, large but throwable stones, gasoline." As soon as he set the box down, sheriff's deputies ran over and photographed it before organisers could remove it. Organisers pointed out the man to the deputies, then watched in disgust as the deputies spoke briefly with him and let him leave. The "riot box" story was top of the news that night, along with a carefully crafted timeline of incidents and a companion piece on the cost of policing the occupation.

More generally

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/20/police-spy-on-climate-activists-unlawful

QuoteThree senior judges have ruled that the undercover police officer Mark Kennedy unlawfully spied on environmentalists and arguably acted as an "agent provocateur".

In a damning ruling explaining why they quashed the convictions of 20 climate change activists, the appeal court judges said they shared the "great deal of justifiable public disquiet" about the case.

The judges, who included the lord chief justice, said "elementary principles" of the fair trial process were ignored when prosecutors did not disclose evidence about Kennedy's work to activists' lawyers.

The court announced on Tuesday that it would quash the convictions of the activists, who were wrongly accused of conspiring to break into Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station in 2009.

The judgment also made several criticisms of Kennedy, including that his deployment could have been construed as "entrapment". It revealed Kennedy was part of a long-term programme "to infiltrate extreme leftwing groups" in the UK. Other court documents say the spy programme was called Operation Pegasus.

Also http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Proactive_Preemptive_Operations_Group

QuoteA recent (2002) classified outbrief drafted to guide the Pentagon calls for the "creation of a so-called Proactive Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG), to launch secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction -- that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to 'quick-response' attacks by U.S. forces."[8]

    The P2OG initiative is nothing new. It essentially extends an existing apparatus of covert operations. Amply documented, the CIA has supported terrorist groups since the Cold War era. This "prodding of terrorist cells" under covert intelligence operations often requires the infiltration and training of the radical groups linked to Al Qaeda.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 20, 2011, 04:58:38 PM
Swote.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 20, 2011, 06:52:27 PM
Regarding the UC Davis protest:
http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/open-letter-to-chancellor-linda-p-b-katehi/

Quote
When you ordered police outfitted with riot helmets, brandishing batons and teargas guns to remove their tents today, those students sat down on the ground in a circle and linked arms to protect them.

What happened next?

Without any provocation whatsoever, other than the bodies of these students sitting where they were on the ground, with their arms linked, police pepper-sprayed students. Students remained on the ground, now writhing in pain, with their arms linked.

What happened next?

Police used batons to try to push the students apart. Those they could separate, they arrested, kneeling on their bodies and pushing their heads into the ground. Those they could not separate, they pepper-sprayed directly in the face, holding these students as they did so. When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

This is what happened. You are responsible for it.

Quote
You may not order police to forcefully disperse student protesters peacefully protesting police brutality. You may not do so. It is not an option available to you as the Chancellor of a UC campus. That is why I am calling for your immediate resignation.

...

I call for your resignation because you are unfit to do your job. You are unfit to ensure the safety of students at UC Davis. In fact: you are the primary threat to the safety of students at UC Davis. As such, I call upon you to resign immediately.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 20, 2011, 07:41:01 PM
Far more reasonable than I would be, in their place. 

I'm more of a fan of the lex talionis approach to injustice, on a personal level.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 20, 2011, 07:48:56 PM
Here's video of UC Davis Chancellor Katehi doing a perp-walk of sorts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8775ZmNGFY8
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 20, 2011, 10:17:06 PM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on November 20, 2011, 06:52:27 PM
Regarding the UC Davis protest:
http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/open-letter-to-chancellor-linda-p-b-katehi/

Quote
When you ordered police outfitted with riot helmets, brandishing batons and teargas guns to remove their tents today, those students sat down on the ground in a circle and linked arms to protect them.

What happened next?

Without any provocation whatsoever, other than the bodies of these students sitting where they were on the ground, with their arms linked, police pepper-sprayed students. Students remained on the ground, now writhing in pain, with their arms linked.

What happened next?

Police used batons to try to push the students apart. Those they could separate, they arrested, kneeling on their bodies and pushing their heads into the ground. Those they could not separate, they pepper-sprayed directly in the face, holding these students as they did so. When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

This is what happened. You are responsible for it.

HOLY SHIT :eek:

Though the more this happens the much, much longer this will take before it ends or will be forgotten.

edit: quote fail
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 20, 2011, 10:33:39 PM
Quote from: Net on November 20, 2011, 07:48:56 PM
Here's video of UC Davis Chancellor Katehi doing a perp-walk of sorts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8775ZmNGFY8

This blog post, which also includes the video, is slightly more descriptive of preceding events, I didn't understand what I was looking at, at first:

http://thesecondalarm.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/ucdavis-chancellor-video/

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 20, 2011, 11:24:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 20, 2011, 07:41:01 PM
Far more reasonable than I would be, in their place. 

I'm more of a fan of the lex talionis approach to injustice, on a personal level.

8)
That is respectable.  I prefer to seek optimal exchange outcomes for myself...  like a whole damn paradigm for getting in my way a little.

The question of when, not if, and to what intensity the beatdowns result in riots will tell me a lot about the next few years.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on November 20, 2011, 11:57:23 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 20, 2011, 10:17:06 PM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on November 20, 2011, 06:52:27 PM
Regarding the UC Davis protest:
http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/open-letter-to-chancellor-linda-p-b-katehi/

Quote
When you ordered police outfitted with riot helmets, brandishing batons and teargas guns to remove their tents today, those students sat down on the ground in a circle and linked arms to protect them.

What happened next?

Without any provocation whatsoever, other than the bodies of these students sitting where they were on the ground, with their arms linked, police pepper-sprayed students. Students remained on the ground, now writhing in pain, with their arms linked.

What happened next?

Police used batons to try to push the students apart. Those they could separate, they arrested, kneeling on their bodies and pushing their heads into the ground. Those they could not separate, they pepper-sprayed directly in the face, holding these students as they did so. When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

This is what happened. You are responsible for it.

HOLY SHIT :eek:

Though the more this happens the much, much longer this will take before it ends or will be forgotten.

edit: quote fail
It's like they forgot almost every lesson the Civil Rights Movement taught them. :lulz: Which is perfect for the OWS movement, frankly.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:01:57 AM
Occupy Tucson continues, with no violence from the cops, no hilarity from the counter-protesters, and no mess from the protesters themselves.

Once again, Tucson leads the way in doin' it wrong.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

(http://in-seattle.org/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ba7f0_APTOPIX_Occupy_Seattl_Davi_t618.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on November 21, 2011, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:01:57 AM
Occupy Tucson continues, with no violence from the cops, no hilarity from the counter-protesters, and no mess from the protesters themselves.

Once again, Tucson leads the way in doin' it wrong.

it's shrinking, too.  No strife = why bother?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on November 21, 2011, 10:20:32 AM
Us, too. According to Lawful Good (who spends a lot of time at the courthouse/general vicinity even at ass o'clock), there's a couple arrests every night, but they agree who's going to be picked up for the night and they guy who sort of runs the whole thing goes over to the one place the FPD can't arrest him in the area and smirks at the cops instead.
No violence (which is odd, because they're not known for being gentle. At all.), just freakishly well behaved cops, a smirker, and a few others.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 21, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
The tactics used at UC Davis by the police make utterly no sense, unless this was intended as a set-up for a larger confrontation.

Looking over video reports and accounts of the day's activities, the police seem ill-led and their rules of engagement contradictory (at one point they've got several guys holding tasers aimed at the protestors, along with two guys with pepper spray who do nothing while the crowd advances towards them, chanting, yet they do nothing but hold their position).

The police engage in retreats and then holding positions at odd times.  At moments, they seem to have utterly no clue what they were doing.

This was provocation.  Pure and simple.  Someone made a decision to get something a bit nasty rolling, then throw an ill-trained and ill-led group of policemen in at the deep end in hope that the protestors would attempt to fight them, and they'd end up having to call in heavies to smash the entire protest apart.  The discipline of the UC Davis protestors are the only thing that stopped this from happening.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Newt on Occupy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/11/21/gingrich-to-occupy-take-a-bath.html)

Quote"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."


Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 21, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Newt on Occupy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/11/21/gingrich-to-occupy-take-a-bath.html)

Quote"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."


Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.


That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 21, 2011, 03:24:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 21, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
The tactics used at UC Davis by the police make utterly no sense, unless this was intended as a set-up for a larger confrontation.

Looking over video reports and accounts of the day's activities, the police seem ill-led and their rules of engagement contradictory (at one point they've got several guys holding tasers aimed at the protestors, along with two guys with pepper spray who do nothing while the crowd advances towards them, chanting, yet they do nothing but hold their position).

The police engage in retreats and then holding positions at odd times.  At moments, they seem to have utterly no clue what they were doing.

This was provocation.  Pure and simple.  Someone made a decision to get something a bit nasty rolling, then throw an ill-trained and ill-led group of policemen in at the deep end in hope that the protestors would attempt to fight them, and they'd end up having to call in heavies to smash the entire protest apart.  The discipline of the UC Davis protestors are the only thing that stopped this from happening.

Yeah, it's my hope that they manage to maintain a pattern like that.  If they allow themselves to snap then they lose over time.  The persistence necessary to succeed at this definitely seems to be there.  There is also  a pretty strong and resourceful core to the group that knows how to hold out under fire.  

The best part to me is that even when there are flare-ups of violence the movement as a whole can continue on city by city no matter how bad a situation gets for one encampment.  What could the authorities really do to stop people in a worldwide way?  If tension comes to a head and something manages to finally cause the big snap then I can't imagine what there is to do about millions of people worldwide well coordinated and basically rioting but managing it in real time.  
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on November 21, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Newt on Occupy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/11/21/gingrich-to-occupy-take-a-bath.html)

Quote"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."


Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.


That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on November 21, 2011, 05:29:15 PM
As for the Davis protest, it's not a real secret that I'm considering going there for my PhD. And that the students are so fierce and disciplined in their protest is pulling me in...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

(http://in-seattle.org/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ba7f0_APTOPIX_Occupy_Seattl_Davi_t618.jpg)

Hello, America.

You did this.   :)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 21, 2011, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

(http://in-seattle.org/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ba7f0_APTOPIX_Occupy_Seattl_Davi_t618.jpg)

Hello, America.

You did this.   :)

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 21, 2011, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

(http://in-seattle.org/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ba7f0_APTOPIX_Occupy_Seattl_Davi_t618.jpg)

Hello, America.

You did this.   :)

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

Looking at her scarf, I'm thinking it's a bit of pepperspray and a whole lot of vomit.

Because here in the land of the free, we're all about spraying 75 year old ladies with pepper spray.

GOD BLESS TEH AMURRICA, LAND OF THE STAY IN LINE GRANNY OR ELSE.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 21, 2011, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 21, 2011, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

(http://in-seattle.org/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ba7f0_APTOPIX_Occupy_Seattl_Davi_t618.jpg)

Hello, America.

You did this.   :)

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

Looking at her scarf, I'm thinking it's a bit of pepperspray and a whole lot of vomit.

Because here in the land of the free, we're all about spraying 75 year old ladies with pepper spray.

GOD BLESS TEH AMURRICA, LAND OF THE STAY IN LINE GRANNY OR ELSE.

I believe it is Maalox and water (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/29/maalox-and-water-solution-used-as-anti-tear-gas-remedy-by-protesters/), a pepper spray antidote.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 21, 2011, 06:36:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.

This reminds me of a Belgian (actually non-Dutch Belgian) article I read yesterday:

Google Translated version of said article (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.knack.be/nieuws/mensen/de-ludieke-acties-hebben-de-angel-uit-de-protestbeweging-gehaald/article-4000005864929.htm&usg=ALkJrhi5HIXNVyAfqoqPLx5IQLJ1KLN_qA)

"Playful" should actually be translated as humoristic/crazy/playful. Kind of like the shit Discordians like to pull, the stuff we used to like to pull before SHIT GOT REAL. It's about some Belgian protest movement called SHAME (never heard of it), and the guy says while he liked the playful/funny demonstrations, especially because the public also seemed to like them, it is not enough however, and caused the movement to sort of lose momentum and bleed to death. "They took the 'sting' from the protest movement", he said, while he agrees there should be a place for humoristic protests, "at some point you also need to dare to be on the offensive and assertive. We used to judge the politics of a country, but then the politicians got an entirely different signal, that the populations thinks it's all very funny: let's drink a pint to the <crazy thing> and it's solved. Which is a shame, a good protest should also be threatening."

Now Occupy can't really be said to be too playful or doing a lot of zany protest demonstrations, but that's besides the point. It doesn't really matter with what kind of behaviour they're diffusing/defusing their potential, the important part is that they shouldn't and instead should carry a STING.

For example that thing where a lot of people transferred their savings to a union bank, that (kinda) stung. But not the drum circles.

Of course this is exactly what some people ITT have been calling for from the beginning (Cain, among others, IIRC), but it bears repeating, and it's not too late even if Occupy is a bit slow on the uptake, right?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:37:20 PM
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 21, 2011, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

(http://in-seattle.org/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ba7f0_APTOPIX_Occupy_Seattl_Davi_t618.jpg)

Hello, America.

You did this.   :)

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

Looking at her scarf, I'm thinking it's a bit of pepperspray and a whole lot of vomit.

Because here in the land of the free, we're all about spraying 75 year old ladies with pepper spray.

GOD BLESS TEH AMURRICA, LAND OF THE STAY IN LINE GRANNY OR ELSE.

I believe it is Maalox and water (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/29/maalox-and-water-solution-used-as-anti-tear-gas-remedy-by-protesters/), a pepper spray antidote.

Good.

But the fact remains, some granny in her 70s got peppersprayed for speaking her piece.

And then other protesters had to help her, because the forces of "law & order"1 certainly fucking wouldn't.  

My disgust and outrage with Seattle - hell, with 50% of America - is hard to articulate.




1  Here in Tucson, of all places, we really DO have law & order.  The cops so far have been far more concerned with the welfare of the protesters, than in shutting them up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 21, 2011, 06:37:52 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Newt on Occupy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/11/21/gingrich-to-occupy-take-a-bath.html)

Quote"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."


Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.


That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

Ah, so only the economically downtrodden can protest for the economically downtrodden? Or if you're not economically downtrodden, you should pretend to be?

Sheer bollocks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 21, 2011, 06:41:39 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

So, basically, fucked if you do, fucked if you don't?

Either you're a filthy hippie and can be ignored, or you're looking too professional so you have a job and what's your problem then?

BTW I'm not putting these words in your mouth, Kai :) Don't worry :) But it's an interesting catch-22 kind of thing with regards to public opinion.

[not really a catch-22 but I can't come up with the proper simile]
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 21, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.

Over at Capitol Grilling, the conservatards are making Helen Thomas bukkake jokes about the above granny pic.

So it ain't just The Machine™.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on November 21, 2011, 06:59:31 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.

Over at Capitol Grilling, the conservatards are making Helen Thomas bukkake jokes about the above granny pic.

So it ain't just The Machine™.

:vomilulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 21, 2011, 07:09:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.

Over at Capitol Grilling, the conservatards are making Helen Thomas bukkake jokes about the above granny pic.

So it ain't just The Machine™.

Those "people" have no shame.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 07:09:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.

Over at Capitol Grilling, the conservatards are making Helen Thomas bukkake jokes about the above granny pic.

So it ain't just The Machine™.

Those "people" have no shame.

What they DO have, as I pointed out over there, is a deep and abiding love of The State.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 21, 2011, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 07:09:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 21, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.

Over at Capitol Grilling, the conservatards are making Helen Thomas bukkake jokes about the above granny pic.

So it ain't just The Machine™.

Those "people" have no shame.

What they DO have, as I pointed out over there, is a deep and abiding love of The State.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on November 21, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 21, 2011, 06:41:39 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

So, basically, fucked if you do, fucked if you don't?

Either you're a filthy hippie and can be ignored, or you're looking too professional so you have a job and what's your problem then?

BTW I'm not putting these words in your mouth, Kai :) Don't worry :) But it's an interesting catch-22 kind of thing with regards to public opinion.

[not really a catch-22 but I can't come up with the proper simile]
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 06:37:52 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Newt on Occupy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/11/21/gingrich-to-occupy-take-a-bath.html)

Quote"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."


Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.


That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

Ah, so only the economically downtrodden can protest for the economically downtrodden? Or if you're not economically downtrodden, you should pretend to be?

Sheer bollocks.

I am so fucking tired of people mocking the occupy protesters using the old "smelly dirty hippies" line. As if they should all dress up in suits and look pretty for the camera instead of just getting fucking pissed and making it clear. Getting pretty for the camera is what the Tea Party protests are all about. Sure, if you want to dress up in a suit, great. That doesn't make you a better person, and when you make comments like the above you look like a douche. YOU SHOULD ALL LOOK PROFESSIONAL AND CLEAN IN YOUR PROTESTS, THEN WHEN YOU GET MACED AT LEAST YOU LOOK PRETTY!!1 I bet you think the minutemen were clean and polished as well.


In other news, I had a talk with my mother yesterday about the destruction of the OWS library, and how fucking stupid it was. You know what? The cops can go fuck themselves. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Libraries. Museums. Archives. I have no respect for people who fuck with these.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 22, 2011, 12:14:12 AM
I don't give a fuck what people dress like, as long as they show up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 22, 2011, 01:48:17 AM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
...
YOU SHOULD ALL LOOK PROFESSIONAL AND CLEAN IN YOUR PROTESTS, THEN WHEN YOU GET MACED AT LEAST YOU LOOK PRETTY!!1 I bet you think the minutemen were clean and polished as well.
...

(http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u337/mtdozier/minutemen.png)
dunno why, but it tickled me...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 22, 2011, 02:13:37 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 22, 2011, 01:48:17 AM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
...
YOU SHOULD ALL LOOK PROFESSIONAL AND CLEAN IN YOUR PROTESTS, THEN WHEN YOU GET MACED AT LEAST YOU LOOK PRETTY!!1 I bet you think the minutemen were clean and polished as well.
...

(http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u337/mtdozier/minutemen.png)
dunno why, but it tickled me...

:lulz: That's pretty good.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 06:37:52 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 21, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: Net on November 21, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 21, 2011, 03:13:50 PM
Newt on Occupy (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/11/21/gingrich-to-occupy-take-a-bath.html)

Quote"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."


Krugman on Occupy (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/)

QuoteRight now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.


That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

Ah, so only the economically downtrodden can protest for the economically downtrodden? Or if you're not economically downtrodden, you should pretend to be?

Sheer bollocks.

I am so fucking tired of people mocking the occupy protesters using the old "smelly dirty hippies" line. As if they should all dress up in suits and look pretty for the camera instead of just getting fucking pissed and making it clear. Getting pretty for the camera is what the Tea Party protests are all about. Sure, if you want to dress up in a suit, great. That doesn't make you a better person, and when you make comments like the above you look like a douche. YOU SHOULD ALL LOOK PROFESSIONAL AND CLEAN IN YOUR PROTESTS, THEN WHEN YOU GET MACED AT LEAST YOU LOOK PRETTY!!1 I bet you think the minutemen were clean and polished as well.

Calling me a douche on the basis of what I like to wear to protests is retarded and hypocritical. I never made any judgment on how people like to present themselves, I agreed with the persuasive appeal angle. You read into my fairly vague statements like an asshole.

There was an experiment where a subject was asked whether two cards showing two different line lengths were the same. The subject was put in a situation full of what the subject thinks are other subjects, though they're actually in cahoots with the experimenter. They all agreed the lines were the same length. Most people in that situation conformed with the group's lie. All it took was one other person in the group to tell the truth before people would show a marked increase in breaking with the near consensus falsehood.

I'm appealing to the people who have to dress up for work, nonverbally. I'm saying, it's okay to tell the truth even if you're not suffering that greatly from this financial crisis. I'm one of the few dressed just like you yet I'm here in solidarity. People are more likely to be attracted to people sending similar social signals, and this operates on a largely unconscious and emotional process. I'm also priming Occupiers to break with their consensus that protesters shouldn't look like me, which I have directly observed on a number of occasions. I'm mining the long tail. Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.

It's a matter of persuasion for me.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on November 22, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Net on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.
Oops. You were doing okay, up until that line.

And besides, dressing up to go down to the protest isn't "telling the truth". Not even a very good metaphor. Show up in regular clothes. Whatever you were wearing that day. That is the truth. Anything else is putting up a front.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 22, 2011, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Net on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.
Oops. You were doing okay, up until that line.

And besides, dressing up to go down to the protest isn't "telling the truth". Not even a very good metaphor. Show up in regular clothes. Whatever you were wearing that day. That is the truth. Anything else is putting up a front.

It's not a front, it's just my more formal style. I like to dress that way whenever I fucking feel like it.

There are fence-sitters about Occupy and I'm a social proof that you don't need to look like the majority of the protesters to approach or join the group.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 22, 2011, 10:30:56 AM
The extremely informative "Inside Job" film can be watched in its entirety here (http://www.theotherschoolofeconomics.org/?p=2499).

XKCD: Money Chart (https://www.xkcd.com/980/huge/#x=-6288&y=-3552&z=2) is such a humongous infographic that you have navigate like it's Google Maps.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 01:12:25 PM
Maybe you guys could stop telling Net or ANYBODY, for that matter, what is and what isn't okay to wear at a protest for whatever pre-approved reasoning, mmmh??

SERIOUSLY

I get your points but don't you think it's more productive to make them without the constant goddamn condescending and dismissive ATTITUDE

This is Discordia, not whine-club.

THX
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 02:15:18 PM
I'm not sure how Krugman's "stop with the drum circles already" turned into Project Runway: Protest Special. 

The point, to me, was that if you're going to stand up for 99% of the American people, you gain strength by having those people identify with you and your cause.  It's tribal identity politics.  It's perception psychology.

OWS, by the definition of its purposes, shouldn't even have the appearance of a radical, progressive, or minority protest.  It's supposed to be the biggest umbrella ever.  Technically, it's representing roughly 307,890,000 people; people who, for a large part, have negative perceptions of counterculture behaviors.  If OWS truly stands for the 99%, and wants the majority of Americans to get on their side, then they have to appeal to them.  They can't push away middle American values and culture, they have to include them.

Quote from: KaiYOU SHOULD ALL LOOK PROFESSIONAL AND CLEAN IN YOUR PROTESTS, THEN WHEN YOU GET MACED AT LEAST YOU LOOK PRETTY!!

Actually, yes.  The majority of Americans would have a much different reaction seeing a dozen people in suits getting maced as opposed to a bunch of Burning Man types getting maced.  And that would be exactly the kind of reaction OWS would want: The perception that "it's US getting maced, not THEM".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 22, 2011, 03:17:38 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 22, 2011, 02:15:18 PM
I'm not sure how Krugman's "stop with the drum circles already" turned into Project Runway: Protest Special. 

The point, to me, was that if you're going to stand up for 99% of the American people, you gain strength by having those people identify with you and your cause.  It's tribal identity politics.  It's perception psychology.

OWS, by the definition of its purposes, shouldn't even have the appearance of a radical, progressive, or minority protest.  It's supposed to be the biggest umbrella ever.  Technically, it's representing roughly 307,890,000 people; people who, for a large part, have negative perceptions of counterculture behaviors.  If OWS truly stands for the 99%, and wants the majority of Americans to get on their side, then they have to appeal to them.  They can't push away middle American values and culture, they have to include them.

Quote from: KaiYOU SHOULD ALL LOOK PROFESSIONAL AND CLEAN IN YOUR PROTESTS, THEN WHEN YOU GET MACED AT LEAST YOU LOOK PRETTY!!

Actually, yes.  The majority of Americans would have a much different reaction seeing a dozen people in suits getting maced as opposed to a bunch of Burning Man types getting maced.  And that would be exactly the kind of reaction OWS would want: The perception that "it's US getting maced, not THEM".

I've seen teabaggers latch on to the appearance thing, and by extension, liken them to the layabout socialist leeches they think are somehow a threat to the US. Which means, of course, that they support any brutality thrown their way, and maybe they would like to volunteer to help in that. Because who doesn't want to beat up a hippie now and then?

It sucks but perception does go a long way, and of course the media is going to find more entertainment and stirring shit value if they show the hippies and the typical anarchist types rather than someone who looks like they just came out of an office.

And I think it lends credence in another way. It says, hey, maybe I do have a job and am not a freeloader on welfare and I still think this shit is messed up. I'm worried that I'm going to be making the same salary for the next 60 years until I'm dead. Etc, etc...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 03:31:21 PM
To be clear:  I don't think it's right, I don't think it's rational, and it certainly shouldn't matter what OWS is wearing, or how they're passing the time.  The fact they are there should be a very clear statement in itself, and what they look like is irrelevant.

Or it would be, if we were in a rational world where people acted rationally.  But we don't.  So we have to work with the world as we find it.  And that world is full of idealogically territorial monkeys who mistrust anything that looks different from them.  And those monkeys need to be part of the movement if it's going to have any lasting major impact.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 22, 2011, 03:38:46 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 22, 2011, 03:31:21 PM
To be clear:  I don't think it's right, I don't think it's rational, and it certainly shouldn't matter what OWS is wearing, or how they're passing the time.  The fact they are there should be a very clear statement in itself, and what they look like is irrelevant.

Or it would be, if we were in a rational world where people acted rationally.  But we don't.  So we have to work with the world as we find it.  And that world is full of idealogically territorial monkeys who mistrust anything that looks different from them.  And those monkeys need to be part of the movement if it's going to have any lasting major impact.

Agreed.

It's very easy for a lot of people to see this

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8kO_xcHeyoA/TsHHEe3hJ3I/AAAAAAAAAGQ/BYJA-RlKRIA/s320/Hippies%2BOccupy.jpg)

And say, "These people don't represent me or anyone I know."

The message gets lost- instead of thinking, "they are representing me as an economic demographic" they are thinking "these stoners think they have something in common with me."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 22, 2011, 03:48:12 PM
Trip and LMNO covered most of what I was gonna say in regards to Net's idea and Kai's reaction to it, but I gotta ask...

Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Net on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.
Oops. You were doing okay, up until that line.

And besides, dressing up to go down to the protest isn't "telling the truth". Not even a very good metaphor. Show up in regular clothes. Whatever you were wearing that day. That is the truth. Anything else is putting up a front.

What the hell is this about? First of all, what's wrong with wanting to look good to people whom you want to find you attractive? And do you really think that dressing like a bum when you go to a protest somehow provides more credibility or makes a more powerful and inclusive statement?

That's fucking idiotic.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 22, 2011, 04:00:42 PM
Also LMNO- im thinking about that line in the chao te ching about the wise spag blending in. Or rogers statement about looking just as all american with a plain black shirt and some jeans.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on November 22, 2011, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 22, 2011, 03:48:12 PM
Trip and LMNO covered most of what I was gonna say in regards to Net's idea and Kai's reaction to it, but I gotta ask...

Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Net on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.
Oops. You were doing okay, up until that line.

And besides, dressing up to go down to the protest isn't "telling the truth". Not even a very good metaphor. Show up in regular clothes. Whatever you were wearing that day. That is the truth. Anything else is putting up a front.

What the hell is this about? First of all, what's wrong with wanting to look good to people whom you want to find you attractive? And do you really think that dressing like a bum when you go to a protest somehow provides more credibility or makes a more powerful and inclusive statement?

That's fucking idiotic.
No, I'm not saying that he is doing anything wrong by dressing up. I'm just saying that his analogy doesn't work because he is deliberately constructing an image to counter the common perception. Which isn't necessarily "telling the truth". And there's nothing wrong with trying to look good to people whom you find attractive, but he ulterior motive undermines the analogy.

I agree with what he and LMNO have been saying for the most part.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 22, 2011, 04:07:14 PM
Show up the way you'd show up to work.

If it's not honest, then why bother?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 04:08:39 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 22, 2011, 04:00:42 PM
Also LMNO- im thinking about that line in the chao te ching about the wise spag blending in. Or rogers statement about looking just as all american with a plain black shirt and some jeans.

Chapter 69
Someone who looks like an enemy
will be treated like an enemy.
An idea that confronts
is an idea that will be rejected.
Be subtle, and use your opponent's language;
But not their rules.
Slip by their natural defenses,
and plant seeds of doubt and confusion.
A slowly growing tree will shatter a sidewalk
and the concrete will not notice,
because it was always there.
There are better ways to change someone's mind
than by screaming at them.

Chapter 80
In a place where information is suppressed
and curiosity stifled,
the people will be uncaring, unwise, and not free.
They will rely on tradition as their guides;
They will not make observations,
or try new things,
or experiment,
or play.
They will be suspicious of outsiders
just as they are with new ideas.
Their minds will be as stagnant
as the pond where they dump their garbage.
They are surely as dead as they can be,
though they still draw breath.


Chapter 27
A good mindfuck leaves no reasons;
A good saboteur leaves no evidence;
A good artist leaves new questions;
A good barstool removes much idle speculation;
The perfect prison cell looks like the environment;
A nice tie opens many doors.

So a wise spag knows how to blend in,
and takes their freedom once inside.
They understand the people around them,
and know how to get things done.
This is called "Tweaking the Machine™".

Those who proclaim their individuality by following rebels
are still grey, though their fingernails be black.
Such things bring my palms to my face.

The Machine™ cannot be stopped.
But you can gradually redesign it
part by part,
party by party.


pter 64
Organized things cause Disorder.
Disorganized things cry for Order.
The colorful and flashy get noticed.
The wary and wise wear camouflage.
A mindfuck of epic proportions
only happens when no one notices the set-up.
Most games are won
when using misdirection.

Let other people
wave their flags and storm the riot shields.
You're not playing that game;
Those game rules were written by Authority.
There is no way you can win at that.

Therefore the wise spags learn all the rules,
and then write different games.
They create the Illusion
that best fits their situation,
and doing so, win.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 22, 2011, 04:10:20 PM
I wear iron maiden shirts to work but were in a secure lab/office and im tucked away in a room.

My previous position there though i was an administrative assistant to two epidemiologists so i cleaned up. And thats the sort of thing i wore to dewey square. Which i will go back to once life stabilizes a little more.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 04:14:51 PM
#OCCUPYYOURSUIT
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 22, 2011, 04:16:48 PM
I like wearing suits because i like how i look in them but only for brief periods of time.
Cuz i like being scrubby too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

:(
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 22, 2011, 04:55:24 PM
That sucks. I was going to make a joke about the rights reaction but felt it was too distasteful.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 22, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 22, 2011, 03:48:12 PM
Trip and LMNO covered most of what I was gonna say in regards to Net's idea and Kai's reaction to it, but I gotta ask...

Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Net on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.
Oops. You were doing okay, up until that line.

And besides, dressing up to go down to the protest isn't "telling the truth". Not even a very good metaphor. Show up in regular clothes. Whatever you were wearing that day. That is the truth. Anything else is putting up a front.

What the hell is this about? First of all, what's wrong with wanting to look good to people whom you want to find you attractive? And do you really think that dressing like a bum when you go to a protest somehow provides more credibility or makes a more powerful and inclusive statement?

That's fucking idiotic.
No, I'm not saying that he is doing anything wrong by dressing up. I'm just saying that his analogy doesn't work because he is deliberately constructing an image to counter the common perception. Which isn't necessarily "telling the truth". And there's nothing wrong with trying to look good to people whom you find attractive, but he ulterior motive undermines the analogy.

I agree with what he and LMNO have been saying for the most part.

"telling the truth" or "presenting an honest narrative" or any of that crap is, well, crap.

Does the OWS movement want to win or not?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: PopeTom on November 22, 2011, 05:53:40 PM
Just remember if you are going to wear a tie to a protest make sure it's a clip on.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 05:57:17 PM
Quote from: PopeTom on November 22, 2011, 05:53:40 PM
Just remember if you are going to wear a tie to a protest make sure it's a clip on.

This is very good advice.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 22, 2011, 05:59:07 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

:(

You have the right to remain silent.  If you choose not to remain silent, we'll kick the fetus out of you.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 06:01:49 PM
MONKEYS.  I HATE THEM.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on November 22, 2011, 06:40:08 PM
Upon reconsidering, although I dislike the elitist attitude against so called hippies, the Occupy protesters are claiming to represent hundreds of millions of people, and not just a subset. To engage in "hippy culture" and have that be the main thing the rest of the country is seeing /is/ alienating to people who aren't part of that subset. And I guess it just is common courtesy to keep a neat and well groomed appearance with clean and current attire, whether I be protesting or working. While a suit doesn't seem necessary to me, at least not clothing that would endorse only hippy culture and alienate the rest. And I'm sorry for the sarcastic comments and suggestion you were a douche, Net.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 22, 2011, 06:46:56 PM
This is reality, taking the piss

http://crookedtimber.org/2011/11/22/athens-polytechnic-comes-to-uc-davis/

QuoteA Greek friend has sent me lots of information on links between the suppression of dissent at UC Davis and similar events in Greece from the days of the military junta to the present. Here's a video commemorating the 1973 uprising centred on Athens Polytechnic, which led to the downfall of the military junta the following year[1]. the last title says "The Polytechneio lives on. In struggles today." Link

Among the legacies of the uprising was a university asylum law that restricted the ability of police to enter university campuses. University asylum was abolished a few months ago, as part of a process aimed at suppressing anti-austerity demonstrations. The abolition law was based on the recommendatiions of an expert committee, which reported a few months ago (report here, in Greek). There's an English translation here, but it doesn't work well for me.

Fortunately, my friend has translated the key recommendations

QuoteUniversity campuses are unsafe. While the [Greek] Constitution permits the university leadership to protect campuses from elements inciting political instability, Rectors have shown themselves unwilling to exercise these rights and fulfill their responsibilities, and to take the decisions needed in order to guarantee the safety of the faculty, staff, and students. As a result, the university administration and teaching staff have not proven themselves good stewards of the facilities with which society has entrusted them.

The politicizing of universities – and in particular, of students – represents participation in the political process that exceeds the bounds of logic. This contributes to the rapid deterioration of tertiary education.

Among the authors of this report – Chancellor Linda Katehi, UC Davis. And, to add to the irony, Katehi was a student at Athens Polytechnic in 1973.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 06:58:00 PM
What's wonderful is how this might never have been made known, if not for the Internet.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on November 22, 2011, 07:17:12 PM
Poe's Law wins again.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/fox-news-on-uc-davis-pepper-spraying-its-a-food-product-essentially.php?ref=fpblg
Quote
"Pepper spray, that just burns your eyes, right?" O'Reilly asked Kelly.

"Right," Kelly said. "I mean, its like a derivative of actual pepper. It's a food product, essentially."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on November 22, 2011, 07:28:39 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 22, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 22, 2011, 03:48:12 PM
Trip and LMNO covered most of what I was gonna say in regards to Net's idea and Kai's reaction to it, but I gotta ask...

Quote from: Doktor Murderbitch Deezy Mac C on November 22, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Net on November 22, 2011, 08:45:17 AM
Plus, it makes a good impression on the ladies.
Oops. You were doing okay, up until that line.

And besides, dressing up to go down to the protest isn't "telling the truth". Not even a very good metaphor. Show up in regular clothes. Whatever you were wearing that day. That is the truth. Anything else is putting up a front.

What the hell is this about? First of all, what's wrong with wanting to look good to people whom you want to find you attractive? And do you really think that dressing like a bum when you go to a protest somehow provides more credibility or makes a more powerful and inclusive statement?

That's fucking idiotic.
No, I'm not saying that he is doing anything wrong by dressing up. I'm just saying that his analogy doesn't work because he is deliberately constructing an image to counter the common perception. Which isn't necessarily "telling the truth". And there's nothing wrong with trying to look good to people whom you find attractive, but he ulterior motive undermines the analogy.

I agree with what he and LMNO have been saying for the most part.

"telling the truth" or "presenting an honest narrative" or any of that crap is, well, crap.

Does the OWS movement want to win or not?
Oh, we are in agreement there. I was merely taking issue with Net's analogy.

And upon further reflection, Net, I realized I was misreading your intent with the line I singled out. It's a perk to dressing not, not an ulterior motive. Sorry about that. But I still think your analogy isn't quite right, but as we are all in agreement, I believe that point is moot.  Carry on.

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 22, 2011, 07:17:12 PM
Poe's Law wins again.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/fox-news-on-uc-davis-pepper-spraying-its-a-food-product-essentially.php?ref=fpblg
Quote
"Pepper spray, that just burns your eyes, right?" O'Reilly asked Kelly.

"Right," Kelly said. "I mean, its like a derivative of actual pepper. It's a food product, essentially."

:lulz: Oh, Bill O'Reilly. Please continue to supply us with the horrorlulz.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 22, 2011, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 22, 2011, 07:17:12 PM
Poe's Law wins again.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/fox-news-on-uc-davis-pepper-spraying-its-a-food-product-essentially.php?ref=fpblg
Quote
"Pepper spray, that just burns your eyes, right?" O'Reilly asked Kelly.

"Right," Kelly said. "I mean, its like a derivative of actual pepper. It's a food product, essentially."


peppers, as in red peppers, not pepper as in black pepper.  black pepper in your eyes is annoying, habanero in your eye is holyfuckingshit ouch.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 22, 2011, 07:36:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 22, 2011, 07:17:12 PM
Poe's Law wins again.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/fox-news-on-uc-davis-pepper-spraying-its-a-food-product-essentially.php?ref=fpblg
Quote
"Pepper spray, that just burns your eyes, right?" O'Reilly asked Kelly.

"Right," Kelly said. "I mean, its like a derivative of actual pepper. It's a food product, essentially."


perhaps someone in the food service industry will garnish her dish with the delicacy sometime soon?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 22, 2011, 07:37:54 PM
"Of course, what people forget is hydrochloric acid is in your stomach, and breaks down food.  It's essentially like spraying protestors with spit."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on November 22, 2011, 07:38:51 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 22, 2011, 07:37:54 PM
"Of course, what people forget is hydrochloric acid is in your stomach, and breaks down food.  It's essentially like spraying protestors with spit."
FATALITY. LIU CAIN WINS.  :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 23, 2011, 12:40:30 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 22, 2011, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 22, 2011, 07:17:12 PM
Poe's Law wins again.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/fox-news-on-uc-davis-pepper-spraying-its-a-food-product-essentially.php?ref=fpblg
Quote
"Pepper spray, that just burns your eyes, right?" O'Reilly asked Kelly.

"Right," Kelly said. "I mean, its like a derivative of actual pepper. It's a food product, essentially."


peppers, as in red peppers, not pepper as in black pepper.  black pepper in your eyes is annoying, habanero in your eye is holyfuckingshit ouch.



Oh, we didn't know that, thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 23, 2011, 01:16:21 AM
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003575.html

QuoteHere's something I've been unsuccessfully trying to get people in the media to point out:

Josh Stearns has been making a list of all the reporters arrested while covering various Occupy events across the country. There are currently 26 people on it.

A few days ago Michael Bloomberg's spokesman Stu Loeser came across the list and sent out email saying this:

QuoteNot being familiar with many of the media outlets for which The Awl says these reporters work, I had the list of "26 arrested reporters" checked against the roster of reporters who hold valid NYPD press passes.

You can imagine my surprise when we found that only five of the 26 arrested reporters actually have valid NYPD-issued press credentials.
Now, this is bogus for a bunch of reasons, such as a) it's nearly impossible to get an NYPD press pass; b) police specifically prevented reporters who did have NYPD passes from getting anywhere near the Zuccotti Park eviction; c) as Loeser himself admits, even reporters with the magic credentials were arrested; and most importantly d) when exactly did America become a place where the government decides who gets to report the news?

But here's the funny thing that no one seems to have noticed: of the 26 reporters on the list, about ten of them (the list is unclear) were not in New York when they were arrested. That is, 40% of them were arrested in Boston, Oakland, and Nashville, etc. It seems a little much to require journalists in other cities to have NYPD press passes.

I don't know whether Stu Loeser was being slippery or just incredibly lazy. But either way, according to him, ALL REPORTERS EVERYWHERE ON EARTH must have NYPD press credentials or be subject to arrest at any time.

—Jonathan Schwarz

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on November 23, 2011, 01:26:21 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 22, 2011, 06:46:56 PM
This is reality, taking the piss

http://crookedtimber.org/2011/11/22/athens-polytechnic-comes-to-uc-davis/

QuoteA Greek friend has sent me lots of information on links between the suppression of dissent at UC Davis and similar events in Greece from the days of the military junta to the present. Here's a video commemorating the 1973 uprising centred on Athens Polytechnic, which led to the downfall of the military junta the following year[1]. the last title says "The Polytechneio lives on. In struggles today." Link

Among the legacies of the uprising was a university asylum law that restricted the ability of police to enter university campuses. University asylum was abolished a few months ago, as part of a process aimed at suppressing anti-austerity demonstrations. The abolition law was based on the recommendatiions of an expert committee, which reported a few months ago (report here, in Greek). There's an English translation here, but it doesn't work well for me.

Fortunately, my friend has translated the key recommendations

QuoteUniversity campuses are unsafe. While the [Greek] Constitution permits the university leadership to protect campuses from elements inciting political instability, Rectors have shown themselves unwilling to exercise these rights and fulfill their responsibilities, and to take the decisions needed in order to guarantee the safety of the faculty, staff, and students. As a result, the university administration and teaching staff have not proven themselves good stewards of the facilities with which society has entrusted them.

The politicizing of universities – and in particular, of students – represents participation in the political process that exceeds the bounds of logic. This contributes to the rapid deterioration of tertiary education.

Among the authors of this report – Chancellor Linda Katehi, UC Davis. And, to add to the irony, Katehi was a student at Athens Polytechnic in 1973.



She freaking went to Polytechnic University
wtf.




*hangs head*

Thanks for the link Cain.


Could I re-post on fb if you don't mind?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 23, 2011, 01:27:10 AM
Sure, just use the link above, as they did all the hard work.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 23, 2011, 01:37:07 AM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 22, 2011, 06:40:08 PM
Upon reconsidering, although I dislike the elitist attitude against so called hippies, the Occupy protesters are claiming to represent hundreds of millions of people, and not just a subset. To engage in "hippy culture" and have that be the main thing the rest of the country is seeing /is/ alienating to people who aren't part of that subset. And I guess it just is common courtesy to keep a neat and well groomed appearance with clean and current attire, whether I be protesting or working. While a suit doesn't seem necessary to me, at least not clothing that would endorse only hippy culture and alienate the rest. And I'm sorry for the sarcastic comments and suggestion you were a douche, Net.

Apology accepted. Thank you.

I should have been more clear what I was agreeing to.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

:(

Is this for real?

Because this is exactly the government-mandated abortion, paid for with taxpayer dollars, that every conservative group in America has been using as a bogeyman.  If there's anything powerful enough to overcome conservative's distaste for hippies and drum circles, it's government-mandated abortion.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on November 23, 2011, 01:55:36 AM
Thanks, will do.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 23, 2011, 02:06:50 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on November 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

:(

Is this for real?

Possibly not

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/11/22/questioning-the-accuracy-of-jennifer-foxs-miscarriage-claim
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on November 23, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
QuoteWhere Does Occupy Wall Street Go From Here? ...a proposal from Michael Moore

Tuesday, November 22nd, 2011

Friends,

This past weekend I participated in a four-hour meeting of Occupy Wall Street activists whose job it is to come up with the vision and goals of the movement. It was attended by 40+ people and the discussion was both inspiring and invigorating. Here is what we ended up proposing as the movement's "vision statement" to the General Assembly of Occupy Wall Street:

We Envision: [1] a truly free, democratic, and just society; [2] where we, the people, come together and solve our problems by consensus; [3] where people are encouraged to take personal and collective responsibility and participate in decision making; [4] where we learn to live in harmony and embrace principles of toleration and respect for diversity and the differing views of others; [5] where we secure the civil and human rights of all from violation by tyrannical forces and unjust governments; [6] where political and economic institutions work to benefit all, not just the privileged few; [7] where we provide full and free education to everyone, not merely to get jobs but to grow and flourish as human beings; [8] where we value human needs over monetary gain, to ensure decent standards of living without which effective democracy is impossible; [9] where we work together to protect the global environment to ensure that future generations will have safe and clean air, water and food supplies, and will be able to enjoy the beauty and bounty of nature that past generations have enjoyed.

The next step will be to develop a specific list of goals and demands. As one of the millions of people who are participating in the Occupy Wall Street movement, I would like to respectfully offer my suggestions of what we can all get behind now to wrestle the control of our country out of the hands of the 1% and place it squarely with the 99% majority.

Here is what I will propose to the General Assembly of Occupy Wall Street:

10 Things We Want
A Proposal for Occupy Wall Street
Submitted by Michael Moore
1. Eradicate the Bush tax cuts for the rich and institute new taxes on the wealthiest Americans and on corporations, including a tax on all trading on Wall Street (where they currently pay 0%).

2. Assess a penalty tax on any corporation that moves American jobs to other countries when that company is already making profits in America. Our jobs are the most important national treasure and they cannot be removed from the country simply because someone wants to make more money.

3. Require that all Americans pay the same Social Security tax on all of their earnings (normally, the middle class pays about 6% of their income to Social Security; someone making $1 million a year pays about 0.6% (or 90% less than the average person). This law would simply make the rich pay what everyone else pays.

4. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, placing serious regulations on how business is conducted by Wall Street and the banks.

5. Investigate the Crash of 2008, and bring to justice those who committed any crimes.

6. Reorder our nation's spending priorities (including the ending of all foreign wars and their cost of over $2 billion a week). This will re-open libraries, reinstate band and art and civics classes in our schools, fix our roads and bridges and infrastructure, wire the entire country for 21st century internet, and support scientific research that improves our lives.

7. Join the rest of the free world and create a single-payer, free and universal health care system that covers all Americans all of the time.

8. Immediately reduce carbon emissions that are destroying the planet and discover ways to live without the oil that will be depleted and gone by the end of this century.

9. Require corporations with more than 10,000 employees to restructure their board of directors so that 50% of its members are elected by the company's workers. We can never have a real democracy as long as most people have no say in what happens at the place they spend most of their time: their job. (For any U.S. businesspeople freaking out at this idea because you think workers can't run a successful company: Germany has a law like this and it has helped to make Germany the world's leading manufacturing exporter.)

10. We, the people, must pass three constitutional amendments that will go a long way toward fixing the core problems we now have. These include:

a) A constitutional amendment that fixes our broken electoral system by 1) completely removing campaign contributions from the political process; 2) requiring all elections to be publicly financed; 3) moving election day to the weekend to increase voter turnout; 4) making all Americans registered voters at the moment of their birth; 5) banning computerized voting and requiring that all elections take place on paper ballots.

b) A constitutional amendment declaring that corporations are not people and do not have the constitutional rights of citizens. This amendment should also state that the interests of the general public and society must always come before the interests of corporations.

c) A constitutional amendment that will act as a "second bill of rights" as proposed by President Frankin D. Roosevelt: that every American has a human right to employment, to health care, to a free and full education, to breathe clean air, drink clean water and eat safe food, and to be cared for with dignity and respect in their old age.

I don't THINK i disagree with any point, but I kind of hope OWS avoids the temptation to start making specific demands.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 02:16:44 PM
That lady's pic I posted?

Turns out she's 85, and has been hospitalized for severe respiratory problems.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on November 23, 2011, 04:01:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 02:16:44 PM
That lady's pic I posted?

Turns out she's 85, and has been hospitalized for severe respiratory problems.
:sad:

I would ask why people with power are such shitnecks, but I really don't think i have to.  Its because we're monkeys, or because we can, or something.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on November 23, 2011, 04:28:52 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on November 23, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
Quote10 Things We Want
A Proposal for Occupy Wall Street
Submitted by Michael Moore
1. Eradicate the Bush tax cuts for the rich and institute new taxes on the wealthiest Americans and on corporations, including a tax on all trading on Wall Street (where they currently pay 0%).

I don't THINK i disagree with any point, but I kind of hope OWS avoids the temptation to start making specific demands.
I disagree with what I bolded.  I would support taxing profits from trades at regular income rates, instead of at the lower capital gains rate, but I would oppose taxing all trades.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Well, you knew Michael Moore was going to shove his fat fucking ass onto the bench.

The attention-whoring has officially begun. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on November 23, 2011, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Well, you knew Michael Moore was going to shove his fat fucking ass onto the bench.


I was expecting him like a month ago. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 23, 2011, 05:19:42 PM
Seems like the dialogue between police and protesters can go three ways:

1) Become more confrontational: riots start, and someone 'wins'. If we assume that there is a rationale behind the pepper spray incidents, it's probably that the Powers That Be think that they can win this round handily if it turns to violence, and are trying to spark riots while retaining plausible deniability about who shot the first bullet (if I recall, Cain suggested this earlier in the thread -- though I might be misremembering)

2) Become less confrontational: the tent cities stay up and the communities that formed around the protests become semi-permanent. This is slightly less ridiculous than it might first seem because a certain portion of occupiers are probably homeless hangers-on, a certain portion anarchists of various pacifistic stripes that really just want an intentional community anyhow, and a certain portion impressionable upper-middle-class or even lower-upper-class twenty-somethings willing to grease the wheels and keep things going out of altruism. In the protests that haven't had any police trouble (more or less any of them that nobody has been ranting about on the internet lately) this is more likely.

3) Stays the same: this is the worst outcome, because if things stay at this liminal level of outrage they merely become tiresome. Violence has its own inertia, and settling down is the easiest response to having no push, but any revolt right now would be put down without enough public support to support a full-scale revolution, and settling down is too dangerous when there's pepper spray in the air.


With (2) we at least get to see a bunch of communes pop up in town greens and city parks, which will be great for academics (who can go watch the progress of the creation of a new society and system of government unfold without leaving campus) and for anarchists (who will say "hey, look, anarchy is sustainable! Look at all those protesters who don't even realize they are anarchists!")

With (1) we have entertaining television and an enormous death count, and if we get lucky there are even more revolutions going on (probably mostly in Europe -- my eye is on Greece -- rather than the US due to a core contingent of heavily armed people instructed to be opposed to what these particular riots are on about), and if they succeed a certain number of the established states will then fail miserably quite quickly, making for several decades of unrest but also a potential for a big restructuring of powers. Think of large chunks of Europe as being like Russia just after the fall of the USSR, except with even more malware and a larger variety of organized crime syndicates.

With (3), all we get is yet another failed protest movement, to be stuck in the history books in a footnote sandwiched between the Barbie Liberation Organization and the Unabomber for President campaign. At best, it heavily informs later movements, like '68 did.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: Precious Moments Zalgo on November 23, 2011, 04:28:52 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on November 23, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
Quote10 Things We Want
A Proposal for Occupy Wall Street
Submitted by Michael Moore
1. Eradicate the Bush tax cuts for the rich and institute new taxes on the wealthiest Americans and on corporations, including a tax on all trading on Wall Street (where they currently pay 0%).

I don't THINK i disagree with any point, but I kind of hope OWS avoids the temptation to start making specific demands.
I disagree with what I bolded.  I would support taxing profits from trades at regular income rates, instead of at the lower capital gains rate, but I would oppose taxing all trades.

I dunno, a small tax on all trades would kill the microtrade bots, which have already caused one major crash.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 23, 2011, 05:37:34 PM
agreed.
high frequency trading seems to be a dangerous development of the market that does not benefit the whole.  a small fee for each trade seems prudent.
PMZ, why the opposition to this?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 23, 2011, 07:16:28 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on November 23, 2011, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Well, you knew Michael Moore was going to shove his fat fucking ass onto the bench.


I was expecting him like a month ago. 

Why not suggest that someone is not him bring these proposals up at GA?

Oh, right.

Also, it will take him forever to get through that whole thing. That GA will probably be 4 hours long.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 23, 2011, 07:22:30 PM
You just knew Moore was going to stick his oar in.  Ask yourself this...when was the last time Moore was involved in a successful political campaign or protest group?

You really wanna follow his advice?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on November 23, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
He is a complete douchebag, and you're right Cain, his involvement will hurt the OWS movement more than anything.

Where are all the bleeding heart celebrities who come out of the woodwork for other stuff, do they not realize that the 99% is 99% of their fans?

Same with politicians, where are their brains on this?  Why has not one of them gotten the ah-hahs yet?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 23, 2011, 07:38:52 PM
Get that fat fuck out of my fucking people's movement.

I hate that asshole.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 23, 2011, 07:42:33 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2011, 02:06:50 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on November 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 22, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

:(

Is this for real?

Possibly not

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/11/22/questioning-the-accuracy-of-jennifer-foxs-miscarriage-claim

Wow, I'm sorry, but that reporter is a complete fucking cockbag. Can you imagine some douche penny-ante weekly paper "journalist" grilling you for details and medical records for your miscarriage? What a complete and utter shitfucking rectumshower.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 23, 2011, 07:43:21 PM
Actually, I'm not sorry at all. I would like to kick that shitlicker in the face with dirty boots.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: Khara on November 23, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
He is a complete douchebag, and you're right Cain, his involvement will hurt the OWS movement more than anything.

Where are all the bleeding heart celebrities who come out of the woodwork for other stuff, do they not realize that the 99% is 99% of their fans?

Same with politicians, where are their brains on this?  Why has not one of them gotten the ah-hahs yet?

Buddy Roemer has been a big supporter of Occupy so far.  Moreso than some other politicians who have said "I understand what these people are saying" and not much more.  he's shown up at Occupy DC and has been talking about the movement quite a lot.  he's running for president as a Republican and was previously governor of Louisiana, he doesn't look like he has much of a chance for the presidential bid though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 23, 2011, 07:45:41 PM
I think I fell asleep halfway through Michael Moore's snorefest social-democratic manifesto of fail.

This is what the Occupy message should be

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2907411559_117ac480b5.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: Khara on November 23, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
He is a complete douchebag, and you're right Cain, his involvement will hurt the OWS movement more than anything.

Where are all the bleeding heart celebrities who come out of the woodwork for other stuff, do they not realize that the 99% is 99% of their fans?

Same with politicians, where are their brains on this?  Why has not one of them gotten the ah-hahs yet?

Buddy Roemer has been a big supporter of Occupy so far.  Moreso than some other politicians who have said "I understand what these people are saying" and not much more.  he's shown up at Occupy DC and has been talking about the movement quite a lot.  he's running for president as a Republican and was previously governor of Louisiana, he doesn't look like he has much of a chance for the presidential bid though.

Your avatar makes me laugh, mostly because it isn't funny.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:48:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: Khara on November 23, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
He is a complete douchebag, and you're right Cain, his involvement will hurt the OWS movement more than anything.

Where are all the bleeding heart celebrities who come out of the woodwork for other stuff, do they not realize that the 99% is 99% of their fans?

Same with politicians, where are their brains on this?  Why has not one of them gotten the ah-hahs yet?

Buddy Roemer has been a big supporter of Occupy so far.  Moreso than some other politicians who have said "I understand what these people are saying" and not much more.  he's shown up at Occupy DC and has been talking about the movement quite a lot.  he's running for president as a Republican and was previously governor of Louisiana, he doesn't look like he has much of a chance for the presidential bid though.

Your avatar makes me laugh, mostly because it isn't funny.

looks less like a dildo than the punching bag at least.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 07:49:22 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:48:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: Khara on November 23, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
He is a complete douchebag, and you're right Cain, his involvement will hurt the OWS movement more than anything.

Where are all the bleeding heart celebrities who come out of the woodwork for other stuff, do they not realize that the 99% is 99% of their fans?

Same with politicians, where are their brains on this?  Why has not one of them gotten the ah-hahs yet?

Buddy Roemer has been a big supporter of Occupy so far.  Moreso than some other politicians who have said "I understand what these people are saying" and not much more.  he's shown up at Occupy DC and has been talking about the movement quite a lot.  he's running for president as a Republican and was previously governor of Louisiana, he doesn't look like he has much of a chance for the presidential bid though.

Your avatar makes me laugh, mostly because it isn't funny.

looks less like a dildo than the punching bag at least.

I'm gonna have to argue that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 23, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:48:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 23, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: Khara on November 23, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
He is a complete douchebag, and you're right Cain, his involvement will hurt the OWS movement more than anything.

Where are all the bleeding heart celebrities who come out of the woodwork for other stuff, do they not realize that the 99% is 99% of their fans?

Same with politicians, where are their brains on this?  Why has not one of them gotten the ah-hahs yet?

Buddy Roemer has been a big supporter of Occupy so far.  Moreso than some other politicians who have said "I understand what these people are saying" and not much more.  he's shown up at Occupy DC and has been talking about the movement quite a lot.  he's running for president as a Republican and was previously governor of Louisiana, he doesn't look like he has much of a chance for the presidential bid though.

Your avatar makes me laugh, mostly because it isn't funny.

looks less like a dildo than the punching bag at least.

Jesus fucking hell I am ready to pledge.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 24, 2011, 10:08:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2011, 07:22:30 PM
You just knew Moore was going to stick his oar in.  Ask yourself this...when was the last time Moore was involved in a successful political campaign or protest group?

You really wanna follow his advice?

I was wracking my brains to think of recent protests in the united states that were successful by some standard, and I couldn't think of any. I'm wondering what the success rate is for nonviolent protests, and if anybody has done a proper analysis of what tactics were used &c.

Gut feeling is that the Situationist techniques stopped working as intended sometime prior to 1970 and nobody took notice.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 24, 2011, 10:21:45 PM
In the US, there aren't many, and for that I directly blame Literary Theory majors and the likes of Michael Moore and their ultimately spineless social democratic wonk-fests.

However, if you look around the rest of the planet, you can find a few examples.  I understand some of the Tahrir Square organisers have held talks with the former Zucotti Park occupiers, though the overall level of influence remains to be seen (and, indeed, the Egyptian revolution still remains in doubt and fragile).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 25, 2011, 10:46:12 AM
On the news yesterday I saw some Egyptian man "on the street" complain about how all this revolution was hurting their tourism income because significantly less people came there (it's a popular sunny Christmas destination), "but don't you want freedom?", "yes yes we want freedom, but not all at once, take it easy" ... he was sort of arguing for a slower democratic process instead of all this revolution and violence.

this guy however appeared to be your typical tourist salesman, the type I've seen in Turkey where you get street upon street of similar small shops selling fake-brand clothes and trinkets where tourists are supposed to bleed money. I suspect he must have been doing reasonably well under the old regime and "well yeah I suppose what they're doing is bad and it should stop but not if it's hurting my business".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 26, 2011, 08:01:17 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 25, 2011, 10:46:12 AM
On the news yesterday I saw some Egyptian man "on the street" complain about how all this revolution was hurting their tourism income because significantly less people came there (it's a popular sunny Christmas destination), "but don't you want freedom?", "yes yes we want freedom, but not all at once, take it easy" ... he was sort of arguing for a slower democratic process instead of all this revolution and violence.

this guy however appeared to be your typical tourist salesman, the type I've seen in Turkey where you get street upon street of similar small shops selling fake-brand clothes and trinkets where tourists are supposed to bleed money. I suspect he must have been doing reasonably well under the old regime and "well yeah I suppose what they're doing is bad and it should stop but not if it's hurting my business".

That's very similar to the "UnOccupy" people in Portland that don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest by the protests.

Only it's, "Well yeah, I suppose Wall Street is bad and it should stop but not if I it makes me late to work."

That said, the cream of Occupy Seattle's crop and the organizers of this townhall have done some significant damage:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/their-own-worst-enemies/Content?oid=10727278

Why wouldn't people acting like children just get thrown the fuck out? I don't understand. Oh, and speaking of overgrown children:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on November 26, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
*hangs head* Imma generation X'er.

Speaking of generation X...I came across this article/blog.

http://www.emptyage.com/post/11591863916/generation-x-doesnt-want-to-hear-it

Sorry nothing of importance to say. Just sharing the above for shits and grins.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on November 28, 2011, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Flush Gorgon in the 21st Century on November 24, 2011, 10:08:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2011, 07:22:30 PM
You just knew Moore was going to stick his oar in.  Ask yourself this...when was the last time Moore was involved in a successful political campaign or protest group?

You really wanna follow his advice?

I was wracking my brains to think of recent protests in the united states that were successful by some standard, and I couldn't think of any. I'm wondering what the success rate is for nonviolent protests, and if anybody has done a proper analysis of what tactics were used &c.

Gut feeling is that the Situationist techniques stopped working as intended sometime prior to 1970 and nobody took notice.

Critical Mass has been effective in some places in addressing very specific, very local policies. But as to winning public sentiment on a larger scale, Tour De Fat has been infinitely more effective.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 07:18:27 PM
The problem with Occupy is the same problem everything else has, nowdays.  There's no focus, just a feeling that someone ought to do something.

It's better than just sitting on the couch and bitching, but that isn't precisely an endorsement.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 07:25:03 PM
Quote from: maphdet on November 26, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
*hangs head* Imma generation X'er.

Speaking of generation X...I came across this article/blog.

http://www.emptyage.com/post/11591863916/generation-x-doesnt-want-to-hear-it

Sorry nothing of importance to say. Just sharing the above for shits and grins.


Heh.

Generation X complaining about people feeling entitled?  

:lulz:

That's too fucking funny.

Hey, why are the Gen Z all a bunch of entitled jackasses?  BECAUSE WE RAISED THEM THAT WAY, DUMBSHIT!  While Gen X was out pretending they weren't 30, their kids were getting fat as fuck playing on the video game console.  While Gen X was day-trading and blowing their wad on dot coms that didn't actually have a product, the boomers were keeping the fucking lights on.

Generation X may not be responsible for the banking fiasco or the shitty economy, but WE BUILT THE FUCKING CULTURE THAT SITS AND WORRIES INSTEAD OF TEARING A MOTHERFUCKER'S HEAD OFF, AS AN OBJECT LESSON FOR THE OTHERS.

That jackass should probably stop whimpering now.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 28, 2011, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 07:25:03 PM
Quote from: maphdet on November 26, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
*hangs head* Imma generation X'er.

Speaking of generation X...I came across this article/blog.

http://www.emptyage.com/post/11591863916/generation-x-doesnt-want-to-hear-it

Sorry nothing of importance to say. Just sharing the above for shits and grins.


Heh.

Generation X complaining about people feeling entitled?  

:lulz:

That's too fucking funny.

Hey, why are the Gen Z all a bunch of entitled jackasses?  BECAUSE WE RAISED THEM THAT WAY, DUMBSHIT!  While Gen X was out pretending they weren't 30, their kids were getting fat as fuck playing on the video game console.  While Gen X was day-trading and blowing their wad on dot coms that didn't actually have a product, the boomers were keeping the fucking lights on.

Generation X may not be responsible for the banking fiasco or the shitty economy, but WE BUILT THE FUCKING CULTURE THAT SITS AND WORRIES INSTEAD OF TEARING A MOTHERFUCKER'S HEAD OFF, AS AN OBJECT LESSON FOR THE OTHERS.

That jackass should probably stop whimpering now.

Gen X is tired of your bullshit.

Gen X got old. The music got too loud. Gen X has damn kids on their lawn.

Gen X is still disaffected, jaded, and apathetic. Gen X never sold out, except when it did.

Gen X has nostalgia. Gen X may not have been innovative, but goddamn it, they perfected what they copied, in a way that was exciting for Gen Xers at the time.

Gen X isn't happy that it's one of the cool kids anymore. Gen X would rather be dead than cool anyway, which was a catchphrase when they were young and cool.

Gen X hasn't lost what it means to be Gen X. They just fastforwarded 20 years.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 09:35:47 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:23:33 PM
Gen X is tired of your bullshit.

Gen X got old. The music got too loud. Gen X has damn kids on their lawn.

Gen X is still disaffected, jaded, and apathetic. Gen X never sold out, except when it did.

Gen X has nostalgia. Gen X may not have been innovative, but goddamn it, they perfected what they copied, in a way that was exciting for Gen Xers at the time.

Gen X isn't happy that it's one of the cool kids anymore. Gen X would rather be dead than cool anyway, which was a catchphrase when they were young and cool.

Gen X hasn't lost what it means to be Gen X. They just fastforwarded 20 years.

Hunter S Thompson called my generation "a generation of swine", and he was right. Biggest fucking pile of self-centered shitbags that ever walked the planet, if you ask me.  There's a reason most of my friends are either 25-30 or 60+, and that reason is that almost everyone my age is, was, and will continue to be a collection of useless tits.

So the kids, they're getting out of the house and hollering about things.  This is so tiresome, right?  What would Curt Colbain say about this?  Why, he'd have given a long sigh, held his cigarette backwards, and say "Eet ees all so borrring".  But he CAN'T, because his useless loser ass punked out and shot himself.  Frankly, he did the world a fucking favor, and I think it's time that the rest of Gen X took a good long look at themselves and STOPPED FUCKING WHINING.

Christ, they whine about EVERYTHING.  It's fucking intolerable.  And now they're whining because THEIR FUCKING KIDS HAVE MORE GUTS THAN THEY DO.

Useless pricks.  Throw 'em all in the Goddamn ocean in barrels full of scrap iron.  Give the shitsuckers something to cry about.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 28, 2011, 09:42:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 09:35:47 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:23:33 PM
Gen X is tired of your bullshit.

Gen X got old. The music got too loud. Gen X has damn kids on their lawn.

Gen X is still disaffected, jaded, and apathetic. Gen X never sold out, except when it did.

Gen X has nostalgia. Gen X may not have been innovative, but goddamn it, they perfected what they copied, in a way that was exciting for Gen Xers at the time.

Gen X isn't happy that it's one of the cool kids anymore. Gen X would rather be dead than cool anyway, which was a catchphrase when they were young and cool.

Gen X hasn't lost what it means to be Gen X. They just fastforwarded 20 years.

Hunter S Thompson called my generation "a generation of swine", and he was right. Biggest fucking pile of self-centered shitbags that ever walked the planet, if you ask me.  There's a reason most of my friends are either 25-30 or 60+, and that reason is that almost everyone my age is, was, and will continue to be a collection of useless tits.

So the kids, they're getting out of the house and hollering about things.  This is so tiresome, right?  What would Curt Colbain say about this?  Why, he'd have given a long sigh, held his cigarette backwards, and say "Eet ees all so borrring".  But he CAN'T, because his useless loser ass punked out and shot himself.  Frankly, he did the world a fucking favor, and I think it's time that the rest of Gen X took a good long look at themselves and STOPPED FUCKING WHINING.

Christ, they whine about EVERYTHING.  It's fucking intolerable.  And now they're whining because THEIR FUCKING KIDS HAVE MORE GUTS THAN THEY DO.

Useless pricks.  Throw 'em all in the Goddamn ocean in barrels full of scrap iron.  Give the shitsuckers something to cry about.

Gen X is whining about the young'uns whining.

Gen X feels entitled to feeling a sense of entitlement.

Who are these upstarts taking their lazy, ineffective, half-hearted complaints from them and doing something with it?

Protests?

Homey don't play dat. Let's have Lollapalooza, or hey, how about a SECOND WOODSTOCK. That showed everyone when we just rocked out about not caring about anything, and throwing mud at Green Day.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:42:16 PM
Homey don't play dat. Let's have Lollapalooza, or hey, how about a SECOND WOODSTOCK. That showed everyone when we just rocked out about not caring about anything, and throwing mud at Green Day.

I just actually snarled.  Jeff left the building.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 28, 2011, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:42:16 PM
Homey don't play dat. Let's have Lollapalooza, or hey, how about a SECOND WOODSTOCK. That showed everyone when we just rocked out about not caring about anything, and throwing mud at Green Day.

I just actually snarled.  Jeff left the building.

:lulz:

:lulz:

I dun gud then.

I remember being a young teenager and thinking the whole thing was cool. Then at the end of my teenage years, I was like "Woodstock? Really? Way to try and steal someone else's thunder. And poorly, at that."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on November 28, 2011, 10:56:55 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:42:16 PM
Homey don't play dat. Let's have Lollapalooza, or hey, how about a SECOND WOODSTOCK. That showed everyone when we just rocked out about not caring about anything, and throwing mud at Green Day.

I just actually snarled.  Jeff left the building.

:lulz:

:lulz:

I dun gud then.

I remember being a young teenager and thinking the whole thing was cool. Then at the end of my teenage years, I was like "Woodstock? Really? Way to try and steal someone else's thunder. And poorly, at that."
Umm, I wasn't even a teenager and thought the idea of a second Woodstock was lame as fuck.  :lol: (that was the 1999 Woodstock, however.)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 28, 2011, 11:14:56 PM
My generation mostly sucks. But I think that most people misunderstand the reason for the apathy. We were preceded by fucking Baby Boomers who were the original self-absorbed generation, raised by fucked-up "people" who believed in segregation, eschewed breastfeeding, used spanking as a potty-training tool, and thought it was harmful to console a crying baby. The Boomers stole all the glory and then turned from hippies into yuppies and stole all the money too. The world we came into already sucked ass, and we were completely unprepared to deal with it. The Me Generation raised us, which mostly means we were left home alone a lot. Some of us followed in the Boomers footsteps and became The Smartest Guys In The Room, the 1% on Wall Street, the politicians on the grift and the radio personalities who whip the masses into a frenzy while simultaneously fucking them without lube. The rest of us got tired. Really tired. It was OK working in a coffeeshop for minimum wage back when at least that meant we got health insurance, but now we have dental problems and bad backs and kids and mortgages and holy shit, we're tired.

But at least we breastfed and spanked only sparingly and told our sons that we love them on a regular basis, and maybe trying to spend more time with our kids will mean that the next generation won't be quite so fucked in the head. Maybe?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2011, 11:14:56 PM
But at least we breastfed and spanked only sparingly and told our sons that we love them on a regular basis, and maybe trying to spend more time with our kids will mean that the next generation won't be quite so fucked in the head. Maybe?

I think that the next generation down the line will be a pack of complete badasses.

You know, given that they'll be hunting rats in the ruins and shit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 29, 2011, 12:36:12 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2011, 11:14:56 PM
But at least we breastfed and spanked only sparingly and told our sons that we love them on a regular basis, and maybe trying to spend more time with our kids will mean that the next generation won't be quite so fucked in the head. Maybe?

I think that the next generation down the line will be a pack of complete badasses.

You know, given that they'll be hunting rats in the ruins and shit.

We can only hope.

This reminds me that Dimo and I were talking today about how we need to start a think tank.

THINK TANK NEEDS ROGER.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 02:43:33 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 12:36:12 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2011, 11:14:56 PM
But at least we breastfed and spanked only sparingly and told our sons that we love them on a regular basis, and maybe trying to spend more time with our kids will mean that the next generation won't be quite so fucked in the head. Maybe?

I think that the next generation down the line will be a pack of complete badasses.

You know, given that they'll be hunting rats in the ruins and shit.

We can only hope.

This reminds me that Dimo and I were talking today about how we need to start a think tank.

THINK TANK NEEDS ROGER.

YAY!

(http://p.lefux.com/61/20100831/A0141000HY/savino-emote-tank-remote-control-german-1-small.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on November 29, 2011, 08:03:24 AM
THINK: TANK!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on November 29, 2011, 08:41:39 AM
I've worked for a think tank before.  It's much more boring than you'd think.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on November 29, 2011, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 28, 2011, 09:42:16 PM
Homey don't play dat. Let's have Lollapalooza, or hey, how about a SECOND WOODSTOCK. That showed everyone when we just rocked out about not caring about anything, and throwing mud at Green Day.

I just actually snarled.  Jeff left the building.

:lulz:

:lulz:

I dun gud then.

I remember being a young teenager and thinking the whole thing was cool. Then at the end of my teenage years, I was like "Woodstock? Really? Way to try and steal someone else's thunder. And poorly, at that."

Are you referring to Woodstock'99? (cause there's been several, apparently)

Thanks anyway for making me look that up ... wow what a mess. And to think I was to go to my first festival that same summer, except it was awesome, and everyone was nice, and I crowdsurfed at the Chemical Brothers and the only Riot was of the Atari Teenage kind. Also they didn't ban bringing food and drink, just had a limit of 8 beercans pp or so. So I brought that, a bread, butterknife and a jar of fucking peanutbutter. Think I only bought one ridiculously overpriced pizza the whole weekend.

I couldn't find any reference on throwing mud at Green Day, unfortunately :)

And the reviewer from Salon.com said that half the festivalgoers left a day early!! Fucking pussies, come to Sziget, it lasts a whole week and you're on an island in the fucking Danube right in the middle of historical "like Prague but bigger" beautiful Budapest city and everything's cheap because fuck yeah Hungary.

Actually, come to think of it, been to Sziget twice and quite some people were in fact a few years older than me, making them Gen-X-ers right? Maybe it's also the US Gen-X-ers. I can imagine that era in the US breeding a generation of "whatever" entitlement?

Maybe it's actually having a war on your own territory that instills the fear of "fuck damn that was some serious bad shit" that seems to have spanned at least three generations. It's getting less now, as the people that lived through WW2 start dying of age, but things like swastikas or even typing "heil hitler" makes me cringe (a little). I suppose it's a bit similar in the US with the slavery and racism history. Very similar in fact if you consider the Dutch did slavery and racism just as well, except they did it in Indonesia and South Africa, on foreign territory, like the USA had with their wars. Or maybe it's a stupid comparison and I'm rambling a bit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 29, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
It's possible that I'm confusing festivals, Trip, or maybe even the band involved, but, the mud slinging bit would have probably been in 94 or 95, so maybe it was Lollapalooza. I'm also not sure about the Woodstock thing now if it was in 99, as I was 18 then. Unless the idea had been floated around in previous years.

As far as whether or not you and I are Gen X-ers, it depends. I've seen some ranges that include being born in the early 1980s, and others that end in 1978. I suppose it all depends on what you consider yourself. I imagine it's also different in Europe anyway for any generation, possibly for reasons like you give. And it does seem that Americans don't have the same cringe factor when exposed to fascist symbolism. But we also don't seem to have the same shame when it comes to slavery. If we did you'd never see the Rebel Flag on some average Joe's truck, or some of the sentiments expressed embarrassingly by my Teabaggers. But back to the Europe-America thing. That may end up not being the case in the generation being born now, with economies being more interdependent and the internet allowing for a global culture.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on November 29, 2011, 03:58:05 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 23, 2011, 05:37:34 PM
agreed.
high frequency trading seems to be a dangerous development of the market that does not benefit the whole.  a small fee for each trade seems prudent.
PMZ, why the opposition to this?
If the tax is small enough that it really only affects HFT's but is negligible for small investors, then I could get behind that.  The manifesto didn't specify and I was imagining something like a few dollars per trade, which would make it even tougher than it already is for small time traders to come out ahead.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on November 29, 2011, 04:16:09 PM
Right...  just to get rid of HFT.
according to Wiki:
QuoteBy 2010 high-frequency trading accounted for over 70% of equity trades taking place in the US and was rapidly growing in popularity in Europe and Asia. Aiming to capture just a fraction of a penny per share or currency unit on every trade, high-frequency traders move in and out of such short-term positions several times each day. Fractions of a penny accumulate fast to produce significantly positive results at the end of every day.[5] High-frequency trading firms do not employ significant leverage, do not accumulate positions, and typically liquidate their entire portfolios on a daily basis.[6]

So HFT doesn't actually lend any benefit to the market from what i can see.  the firms that do it claim it adds useful liquidity, but since it doesn't actually lend capital to businesses on a useful timescale, it seems to me that it simply exploits the system of measured and reasonable investment to extract wealth.
the firms that engage in HFT say it's a stabilizing force in the market, while the SEC says it is a major contributing factor in Flash Crash.  intuition (i would go as far as to say common sense) says the SEC is right.
according to the above, the trading fee would only have to be pennies to render the practice infeasible.
seems like a no brainer to me. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 04:18:07 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
It's possible that I'm confusing festivals, Trip, or maybe even the band involved, but, the mud slinging bit would have probably been in 94 or 95, so maybe it was Lollapalooza. I'm also not sure about the Woodstock thing now if it was in 99, as I was 18 then. Unless the idea had been floated around in previous years.

pretty sure the mud slinging was the Green Day performance at Woodstock 99 - I remember watching it on TV in high school

oh thank god for youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h275pulfwHE






On the generational note, you guys might find this interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y

The rough general consensus is that the Millenials start around 1982. (putting me right at the cusp between X and Y.)

Generation Y is a marketing term, so it really only discusses this generation in terms of its consumer habits. But that in itself is really interesting.

They also get called the "Peter Pan Generation" due to the tendency to delay adulthood rituals really far.

Quotesome Millennials are delaying the transition from childhood to adulthood as a response to mistakes made by their parents. "In prior generations, you get married and you start a career and you do that immediately. What young people today are seeing is that approach has led to divorces, to people unhappy with their careers ... The majority want to get married [...] they just want to do it right the first time, the same thing with their careers."

On Religion

QuoteIn the United States, Generation Y has a slightly lower level of religiosity to older generations, and they are more likely to be skeptical of religious institutions.[67] A 2005 study looked at 1,385 people aged 18 to 25 and found that over half of those in the study said that they pray regularly before a meal. A third said that they talked about religion with friends, attend places of worship, and read religious materials weekly. 23% of those studied did not identify themselves as belonging to a religious affiliation.

:fnord:

I found this claim interesting:

QuoteGeneration Y'ers never truly rebelled against their parents, unlike prior generations, often enjoying the same music, movies and products as their parents
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 05:08:30 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
It's possible that I'm confusing festivals, Trip, or maybe even the band involved, but, the mud slinging bit would have probably been in 94 or 95, so maybe it was Lollapalooza. I'm also not sure about the Woodstock thing now if it was in 99, as I was 18 then. Unless the idea had been floated around in previous years.

As far as whether or not you and I are Gen X-ers, it depends. I've seen some ranges that include being born in the early 1980s, and others that end in 1978. I suppose it all depends on what you consider yourself. I imagine it's also different in Europe anyway for any generation, possibly for reasons like you give. And it does seem that Americans don't have the same cringe factor when exposed to fascist symbolism. But we also don't seem to have the same shame when it comes to slavery. If we did you'd never see the Rebel Flag on some average Joe's truck, or some of the sentiments expressed embarrassingly by my Teabaggers. But back to the Europe-America thing. That may end up not being the case in the generation being born now, with economies being more interdependent and the internet allowing for a global culture.

I was born in 77 and consider myself a milllenial but that's because I'm the oldest of 3 and I tend to hang out with a younger crowd and generally not be apathetic about shit.  I was always more into industrial and dancey stuff than Grunge too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: rong on November 29, 2011, 06:31:55 PM
i, too, was born in 77.  at least i wasn't born in the 80's.

i always figured generation x was in high school when molly ringwald (sp?) played characters that were in high school.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:49:31 PM
I was born when people still lived in fucking caves and democrats were still liberal.  I had a dinosaur of my own, and the world was my fucking lawn.

And you little shits need to get off of it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on November 29, 2011, 08:53:18 PM
You are not that old, Mr. Roger.

I think I'm 4 years younger than you, so quit it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 30, 2011, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: Jenne on November 29, 2011, 08:53:18 PM
You are not that old, Mr. Roger.

I think I'm 4 years younger than you, so quit it.

Okay, the democrats bit was hyperbole.  But still.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 30, 2011, 11:28:38 PM
Mayor Sam Adams lied about crime to oust Occupy Portland (http://www.portlandoccupier.org/2011/11/29/mayor-and-police-chief-lied-about-crime/). Surprise!

Quote
Ted Clark doesn't believe all he hears. When he read reports that one of the reasons why Sam Adams decided to evict Occupy Portland from its encampment was that the City of Portland and its Police Bureau claimed Occupy had sparked an "increase of crime," he didn't believe it.

"I never saw any information to back up that claim," he explains, "so I decided to investigate for myself, using their own statistics on Crime Mapper. It turns out it was all a lie, plain and simple. They lied, and they knew they were lying, and they made no attempt to document their evidence because they knew the evidence would prove them wrong.

"The Mayor and the Police Chief lied to the citizens of Portland regarding the crime issue. There was a decrease in crime in other areas of the city, and overall, even accounting for a few areas of increase near the encampment that might be simply due to the increase in population density, there was an overall reduction in crime. I have files with all the maps for all the crime categories."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 01, 2011, 12:25:27 AM
Is this what you meant by "seizing economic choke points," Cain? If I remember correctly, you introduced me to the concept a few months ago....

(http://i.imgur.com/UL8uD.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 01, 2011, 12:28:18 AM
Quote from: Net on November 30, 2011, 11:28:38 PM
Mayor Sam Adams lied about crime to oust Occupy Portland (http://www.portlandoccupier.org/2011/11/29/mayor-and-police-chief-lied-about-crime/). Surprise!

Quote
Ted Clark doesn't believe all he hears. When he read reports that one of the reasons why Sam Adams decided to evict Occupy Portland from its encampment was that the City of Portland and its Police Bureau claimed Occupy had sparked an "increase of crime," he didn't believe it.

"I never saw any information to back up that claim," he explains, "so I decided to investigate for myself, using their own statistics on Crime Mapper. It turns out it was all a lie, plain and simple. They lied, and they knew they were lying, and they made no attempt to document their evidence because they knew the evidence would prove them wrong.

"The Mayor and the Police Chief lied to the citizens of Portland regarding the crime issue. There was a decrease in crime in other areas of the city, and overall, even accounting for a few areas of increase near the encampment that might be simply due to the increase in population density, there was an overall reduction in crime. I have files with all the maps for all the crime categories."

I'm unsurprised.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on December 01, 2011, 01:25:56 AM
Did you see Ann Coulter advocating that the Occupy folks be shot?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 01, 2011, 03:07:21 AM
Thats not surprising either. Conservatives have always used violent rhetoric as if they are sociopaths and that law is just a suggestion when it applies to them.

That and ive already seen conservatives on the internet saying that for about a month now.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: I_Kicked_Kennedy on December 01, 2011, 03:19:25 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 04:18:07 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
It's possible that I'm confusing festivals, Trip, or maybe even the band involved, but, the mud slinging bit would have probably been in 94 or 95, so maybe it was Lollapalooza. I'm also not sure about the Woodstock thing now if it was in 99, as I was 18 then. Unless the idea had been floated around in previous years.

pretty sure the mud slinging was the Green Day performance at Woodstock 99 - I remember watching it on TV in high school

oh thank god for youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h275pulfwHE








Not to be that guy, Cram, but mud throwing was Woodstock '94 in Saugerties (or however you spell it). Woodstock 99 was the summer between my junior and senior year of high school, it was twenty minutes from my house, and we didn't throw mud.

We burned shit down and got the riot police called on us.

Too bad we were listening to nu-metal for much of the weekend. It would probably be more notable if we had an awesome soundtrack like Woodstock '69.

To be fair, that should have been a lesson to the capitalists... you get enough of us together, charge $150 for tickets, $5 for beer, $4 for soda (this is 12 years ago, mind you), $12 for personal pan pizza, slap logos* on every damn thing you see...

Shit|Will|Catch|Fire

Instead, boomers decided Gen whY wasn't the children they wanted, and they decided to cash in the metaphorical 401k and leave us no inheritance whatsoever. Lessons learned... we didn't burn enough shit.

*[Oracle even sponsored a pacifier distribution at the nightly raves (George Clinton's b'day). They may not want to admit to it today, but I still got it in my closet]
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on December 01, 2011, 02:40:38 PM
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/11/occupy_la_arrested.php

Occupy LA got a run for its money but is still intact. The cops went through underground tunnels and emerged in the middle of the protest. Surprisingly, the LAPD were on their best behavior. The protest reconvened elsewhere in LA.

This whole scene sounds incredible, and I hope somebody compiles the videos of it.



There's a bit of talk about the need for Occupy 2.0 ... "what to do next"

QuoteSixty days of camping felt like enough. It was, in some ways, time to move on: Part-time Occupiers felt that two months of camping -- no matter how well-organized, no matter how many great lectures and workshops and food deliveries took place -- was enough. "This is not the time of Socrates, we can't just listen to talking under shady trees forever," one Occupier tells me.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 01, 2011, 08:19:40 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on November 28, 2011, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Flush Gorgon in the 21st Century on November 24, 2011, 10:08:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2011, 07:22:30 PM
You just knew Moore was going to stick his oar in.  Ask yourself this...when was the last time Moore was involved in a successful political campaign or protest group?

You really wanna follow his advice?

I was wracking my brains to think of recent protests in the united states that were successful by some standard, and I couldn't think of any. I'm wondering what the success rate is for nonviolent protests, and if anybody has done a proper analysis of what tactics were used &c.

Gut feeling is that the Situationist techniques stopped working as intended sometime prior to 1970 and nobody took notice.

Critical Mass has been effective in some places in addressing very specific, very local policies. But as to winning public sentiment on a larger scale, Tour De Fat has been infinitely more effective.

I had to look up both of those things. Wikipedia tells me that they are bicycling things, and that Tour De Fat is run by a beer company. You will need to tell me how they relate to protesting, situationist techniques, and success. My cursory attempts at research have not yielded any information about that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on December 01, 2011, 08:59:58 PM
Critical Mass combats the hegemonic assumption that roads are for people that drive cars, and that other modes of transportation better get the fuck out of the way.


Most of our road/highway system was built during the New Deal, when Roosevelt was trying to package car ownership as part of the American Dream. Lots of places are built on the assumption that everybody drives everywhere.

And it gets carried too far at times. I mean, if you only live a few miles from your job, you SHOULD be able to bike there, right? But lots of cities don't have bike lanes or anything like that. If you take your bike to work, people are honking at you. Critical Mass establishes - in a very visual way - that people still ride bikes, and there IS a demand for bike infrastructure.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on December 02, 2011, 03:20:44 AM
Quote from: I_Kicked_Kennedy on December 01, 2011, 03:19:25 AM*[Oracle even sponsored a pacifier distribution at the nightly raves (George Clinton's b'day). They may not want to admit to it today, but I still got it in my closet]
:lulz:

Do you mind posting a picture of it, because I totally want to see this thing.

PMZ,
Oracle worker-drone.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Kai on December 02, 2011, 06:07:08 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on December 01, 2011, 03:07:21 AM
Thats not surprising either. Conservatives have always used violent rhetoric as if they are sociopaths and that law is just a suggestion when it applies to them.

That and ive already seen conservatives on the internet saying that for about a month now.

As IF they are sociopaths?

No, I get you. Calls for violence do not indicate sociopathy. Tribalism, yes, and the lack of empathy for 'them' that comes with tribalism, but not all conservatives can be sociopaths...right? RIGHT?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Laughin Jude on December 02, 2011, 07:55:40 AM
Re: last page:

I've made a cursory argument (http://laughinjude.com/2011/03/generation-i-dont-know-what/) before that there's probably a mini-generation between Generation X and the Millennials. There's more detail at that link, but one of the big things is that people around my own age (I was born in 1981, but I think it goes for a few years in either direction... think currently late-20's to maybe mid-30-ish) don't fit into Gen X culturally in part because we didn't spend our formative teenage years in constant fear of being nuked (the USSR collapsed when I was 10) and aren't generally apathetic, materialistic self-obsessed shitheads, but at the same time we were outside playing and riding our bikes in places we probably shouldn't without helicopter parents constantly hovering over us. We were latchkey kids and didn't get participation trophies for everything we did, but the internet didn't become a huge thing until around the time we were graduating high school, so we mostly matured without that as an influence on us (and man does that separate us from the Millennials). We had neither Reaganomics nor cell phones. We're arguably a lost mini-generation that grew up on the cusp of massive social change after the end of the Cold War but before 9/11 and e-everything, and we kind of get get lost in between the two major, recognized niches.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on December 02, 2011, 08:10:41 AM
Agreed. I fit in there too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 02, 2011, 10:49:55 AM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 02, 2011, 06:07:08 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on December 01, 2011, 03:07:21 AM
Thats not surprising either. Conservatives have always used violent rhetoric as if they are sociopaths and that law is just a suggestion when it applies to them.

That and ive already seen conservatives on the internet saying that for about a month now.

As IF they are sociopaths?

No, I get you. Calls for violence do not indicate sociopathy. Tribalism, yes, and the lack of empathy for 'them' that comes with tribalism, but not all conservatives can be sociopaths...right? RIGHT?

I really don't get conservatives sometimes. They're everything that they hate, but somehow it's ok when they do it because somehow that won't lead to a breakdown of order, rights, security or liberty. A good lot of them are fucking blackshirts itching to get out there and bash some commies heads in.

Actually, I might start likening them to blackshirts when possible.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 02, 2011, 10:58:55 AM
Laughing Jude-

I'm with you for the most part, but I remember taking an interest in the changes in Eastern Europe as it was happening and being relieved that I probably wasn't going to get nuked. I was a weird 6-10 year old, and was always kind of drawn to/horrified by catastrophic end of civilization scenarios. So, add climate change, epidemics and the Book of Revelation on my list of childhood fears too.

But other than that, yeah. I didn't end up using the internet until I was probably 16, and I didn't even bother with a cell phone until I was 24. Parental presence was somewhat minimized for various reasons, etc.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on December 02, 2011, 03:39:31 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on December 02, 2011, 07:55:40 AM
Re: last page:

I've made a cursory argument (http://laughinjude.com/2011/03/generation-i-dont-know-what/) before that there's probably a mini-generation between Generation X and the Millennials. There's more detail at that link, but one of the big things is that people around my own age (I was born in 1981, but I think it goes for a few years in either direction... think currently late-20's to maybe mid-30-ish) don't fit into Gen X culturally in part because we didn't spend our formative teenage years in constant fear of being nuked (the USSR collapsed when I was 10) and aren't generally apathetic, materialistic self-obsessed shitheads, but at the same time we were outside playing and riding our bikes in places we probably shouldn't without helicopter parents constantly hovering over us. We were latchkey kids and didn't get participation trophies for everything we did, but the internet didn't become a huge thing until around the time we were graduating high school, so we mostly matured without that as an influence on us (and man does that separate us from the Millennials). We had neither Reaganomics nor cell phones. We're arguably a lost mini-generation that grew up on the cusp of massive social change after the end of the Cold War but before 9/11 and e-everything, and we kind of get get lost in between the two major, recognized niches.

That would make a lot of sense because I'm 1980 and the descriptions of GenX and GenY always make me feel a littlebit of both and a littlebit of neither.

But I also believe it's a lot of horoscope-like bullcrap generic descriptions, too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 04:45:23 PM
I'm 1973 and feel like most of Gen X doesn't apply, but I think that's just how it goes with the general descriptors.  I think folks like mine who were born in '55 but have sibs that were born in the 60's also feel that same "intermediate" thing about the generation "gap."  There has to be overlap as the generations feed into each other.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 04, 2011, 10:18:57 AM
I'm with Trip.  Horoscope-y bullshit, for the most part, bolstered by wank sociology.

Anyway, back to the actual topic of the thread, which is the Occupy movement.  Yasha Levine, an editor for the eXiled was present at the OLA protests, and unlucky enough to get arrested.  He describes what happened next (http://exiledonline.com/yasha-levine-released-from-jail-exposes-lapds-appalling-treatment-of-detained-occupy-la-protesters/):

QuoteWhile people are now beginning to learn that the police attack on Occupy LA was much more violent than previously reported, few actually realize that much—if not most—of the abuse happened while the protesters were in police custody, completely outside the range of the press and news media. And the disgraceful truth is that a lot of the abuse was police sadism, pure and simple:

* I heard from two different sources that at least one busload of protesters (around 40 people) was forced to spend seven excruciating hours locked in tiny cages on a Los Angeles County Sheriff's Dept. prison bus, denied food, water and access to bathroom facilities. Both men and women were forced to urinate in their seats. Meanwhile, the cops in charge of the bus took an extended Starbucks coffee break.

* The bus that I was shoved into didn't move for at least an hour. The whole time we listened to the screams and crying from a young woman whom the cops locked into a tiny cage at the front of the bus. She was in agony, begging and pleading for one of the policemen to loosen her plastic handcuffs. A police officer sat a couple of feet away the entire time that she screamed–but wouldn't lift a finger.

* Everyone on my bus felt her pain–literally felt it. That's because the zip-tie handcuffs they use—like the ones you see on Iraq prisoners in Abu Ghraib—cut off your circulation and wedge deep through your skin, where they can do some serious nerve damage, if that's the point. And it did seem to be the point. A couple of guys around me were writhing in agony in their hard plastic seats, hands handcuffed behind their back.

* The 100 protesters in my detainee group were kept handcuffed with their hands behind their backs for 7 hours, denied food and water and forced to sit/sleep on a concrete floor. Some were so tired they passed out face down on the cold and dirty concrete, hands tied behind their back. As a result of the tight cuffs, I wound up losing sensation in my left palm/thumb and still haven't recovered it now, a day and a half after they finally took them off.

* One seriously injured protester, who had been shot with a shotgun beanbag round and had an oozing bloody welt the size of a grapefruit just above his elbow, was denied medical attention for five hours. Another young guy, who complained that he thought his arm had been broken, was not given medical attention for at least as long. Instead, he spent the entire pre-booking procedure handcuffed to a wall, completely spaced out and staring blankly into space like he was in shock.

* An Occupy LA demonstrator in his 50s who was in my cell block in the Los Angeles Metropolitan Detention Center told us all about when a police officer forced him to take a shit with his hands handcuffed behind his back, which made pulling down his pants and sitting down on the toilet extremely difficult and awkward. And he had to do this in sight of female police officers, all of which made him feel extremely ashamed, to say the least.

* There were two vegetarians and one vegan in my cell. When I left jail around 1:30 pm, they still had not been given food, despite the fact that they were constantly being promised that it would come.

* There were 292 people arrested at Occupy LA. About 75 of them have been released or have gotten out on bail, according the National Lawyers Guild. Most are still inside, slapped with $5,000 to $10,000 bail. According to a bail bondsman I know, this is unprecedented. Misdemeanors are almost always released on their own recognizance, which means that they don't pay any bail at all. Or at most it's a $100.

* That means the harsh, long detentions are meant to be are a purely punitive measure against Occupy LA protesters–an order that had to come from the very top.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 04, 2011, 10:24:38 AM
Additional fun

http://exiledonline.com/max-blumenthal-how-israeli-occupation-forces-bahraini-monarchy-guards-trained-u-s-police-for-coordinated-crackdown-on-occupy-protests/

QuoteIn October, the Alameda County Sheriff's Department turned parts of the campus of the University of California in Berkeley into an urban battlefield. The occasion was Urban Shield 2011, an annual SWAT team exposition organized to promote "mutual response," collaboration and competition between heavily militarized police strike forces representing law enforcement departments across the United States and foreign nations.

At the time, the Alameda County Sheriff's Department was preparing for an imminent confrontation with the nascent "Occupy" movement that had set up camp in downtown Oakland, and would demonstrate the brunt of its repressive capacity against the demonstrators a month later when it attacked the encampment with teargas and rubber bullet rounds, leaving an Iraq war veteran in critical condition and dozens injured. According to Police Magazine, a law enforcement trade publication, "Law enforcement agencies responding to...Occupy protesters in northern California credit Urban Shield for their effective teamwork."

Training alongside the American police departments at Urban Shield was the Yamam, an Israeli Border Police unit that claims to specialize in "counter-terror" operations but is better known for its extra-judicial assassinations of Palestinian militant leaders and long record of repression and abuses in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Urban Shield also featured a unit from the military of Bahrain, which had just crushed a largely non-violent democratic uprising by opening fire on protest camps and arresting wounded demonstrators when they attempted to enter hospitals. While the involvement of Bahraini soldiers in the drills was a novel phenomenon, the presence of quasi-military Israeli police – whose participation in Urban Shield was not reported anywhere in US media – reflected a disturbing but all-too-common feature of the post-9/11 American security landscape.

The Israelification of America's security apparatus, recently unleashed in full force against the Occupy Wall Street Movement, has taken place at every level of law enforcement, and in areas that have yet to be exposed. The phenomenon has been documented in bits and pieces, through occasional news reports that typically highlight Israel's national security prowess without examining the problematic nature of working with a country accused of grave human rights abuses. But it has never been the subject of a national discussion. And collaboration between American and Israeli cops is just the tip of the iceberg.

Having been schooled in Israeli tactics perfected during a 63 year experience of controlling, dispossessing, and occupying an indigenous population, local police forces have adapted them to monitor Muslim and immigrant neighborhoods in US cities. Meanwhile, former Israeli military officers have been hired to spearhead security operations at American airports and suburban shopping malls, leading to a wave of disturbing incidents of racial profiling, intimidation, and FBI interrogations of innocent, unsuspecting people. The New York Police Department's disclosure that it deployed "counter-terror" measures against Occupy protesters encamped in downtown Manhattan's Zuccotti Park is just the latest example of the so-called War on Terror creeping into every day life. Revelations like these have raised serious questions about the extent to which Israeli-inspired tactics are being used to suppress the Occupy movement.

http://exiledonline.com/a-visit-to-the-raided-occupy-la-camp-updates-from-freed-protesters-and-bad-news-about-our-legal-situation/

QuoteBut while not much happened at the meeting, I did manage to meet up with a few of my jail buddies and get more info on some of the abuses I had witnessed and described in my last post. [Read Yasha Levine's account of LAPD's appalling treatment of detained Occupy LA protesters.]

For instance: Remember the seriously injured protester, who had been shot with a shotgun beanbag round and had an oozing bloody welt the size of a grapefruit just above his elbow, but denied medical attention for five hours? I was only able to speak to him for a few minutes when we were locked up at Metro jail and never got his name, but it turns out he was one of the guys who constructed a makeshift tree house between three tall palm trees and sat up there for hours with two other people, refusing to come down. He said they were the last to be arrested, sometime around 4:30 a.m., when the cops finally got hold of a cherry picker platform, and a cop in full-on riot gear forced them down at gunpoint. From what I understand, it was at this point that Chad was shot with a beanbag round.

Chad and his buddies kept the LAPD busy for hours. The cops must have been pissed off, and making an injured kid squirm on a concrete floor with a bleeding wound, hands handcuffed behind his back for hours on end, must have felt like the perfect payback...

So now that most of the detained protesters have been released, what is our legal status? Are we going to be prosecuted? Well, that's not very clear.

I've been charged with misdemeanor# 409PC: failure to disperse (or as my booking officer put down on my prisoner's receipt, it's "fail to disclose"). My court date is set for early January, so I guess I'll find out then. But apparently I shouldn't expect the city to drop the charge. Here is what LA Weekly reported on Friday evening:

   
QuoteCity Attorney's criminal branch Chief Earl Thomas tells the Weekly virtually no one is getting off scot-free.

    He said that while about 175 people were released today they could still be charged. Those folks were determined to be eligible for the Alternative Prosecution Program, a 90-day love fest in which suspects can enroll and avoid prosecution.

    Thomas said a special agenda would be formulated for the Occupy arrestees, one that would focus on First Amendment education:

   
QuoteWe'll include a First Amendment law component about having to stay within the law in terms of conduct. We don't care what the message is but we are concerned about illegal conduct.

    Those people don't have the accept the program and can chose to duke it out in court.

Ha! So there you have it folks. Not only does the City of Los Angeles arrest those who exercise their constitutional right to peacefully protest (or in my case simply reporting on a peaceful protest), apparently it now requires anyone caught exercising that right to enroll in a political reeducation camp.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 04, 2011, 02:24:55 PM
Alan Moore recommends alternative currencies as a means of fixing the Gini coefficient (http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/behead_the_currency_alan_moore_on_the_occupy_movement). When I suggest this, people call me crazy (or at least deluded). When Alan Moore suggests this, Metzger puts it on the front page. Maybe it's because he thinks everyone knows Alan Moore is crazy or deluded  :D

To be fair, he doesn't suggest a particular alternative currency, while I suggest soda can pull-tabs. That might be part of it.

Quote
Economics is always strange. You're not talking about anything that's actually real. Researching a chapter for Jerusalem, I read a couple of books on economics to see if I could get my head around the facts of the situation. I was astonished when I found out the value of derivative bonds, in 2008. These are bonds that have a value in themselves that were once connected to a real thing, there might have been a bond made for the sale of a herd of sheep, but that can be sold on and they gain in value. The notional value of the world's derivative bonds was in the region of sixty trillion. Exactly ten times the economic output of the entire planet, which is around six trillion. That means that the gap between what economists and what the world's economic forces and the banks thought they had to play with and what actually existed was fifty-four trillion. That would seem to me the depth of the hole we are in.

So something has to be done about that. I would suggest beheading the bankers, but while it would be very satisfying and would cheer us up, it probably wouldn't do anything practical to alter the situation. Behead the currency. Change the currency, why not? It would disempower all the people who had bought into that currency but it would pretty much empower the rest of us, the other ninety-nine percent.
Clap harder!
     \
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/TinkerbellDisney.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on December 04, 2011, 09:01:34 PM
Aha!  Time to invest in teh Bitcoin!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 04, 2011, 10:51:18 PM
Quote from: trix on December 04, 2011, 09:01:34 PM
Aha!  Time to invest in teh Bitcoin!

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 04, 2011, 10:52:49 PM
There is a not-at-all insignificant difference between "alternative currencies" and "changing the currency", though. By not-insignificant, I mean that they are actually completely different things.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Template on December 05, 2011, 03:03:53 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 04, 2011, 10:52:49 PM
There is a not-at-all insignificant difference between "alternative currencies" and "changing the currency", though. By not-insignificant, I mean that they are actually completely different things.

This; imagine the difference between "We also accept Flax Shequels!" and "Dollars?  I guess I could accept dollars.  Let me get a quote on Flax Shequels for Dollars..."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on December 07, 2011, 03:09:32 AM
Anonymous posts video about a bill that sounds bad.  Then starts quoting V for Vendetta, which I've been waiting for since I first saw them use the Guy Fawkes mask. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HrXyLrTRXso)


Quote

In a stunning move that has civil libertarians stuttering with disbelief, the U.S. Senate has just passed a bill that effectively ends the Bill of Rights in America.

The National Defense Authorization Act is being called the most traitorous act ever witnessed in the Senate, and the language of the bill is cleverly designed to make you think it doesn't apply to Americans, but toward the end of the bill, it essentially says it can apply to Americans "if we want it to.

Bill Summary & Status, 112th Congress (2011 -- 2012) | S.1867 | Latest Title: National Defense Authorization Act for.

This bill, passed late last night in a 93-7 vote, declares the entire USA to be a "battleground" upon which U.S. military forces can operate with impunity, overriding Posse Comitatus and granting the military the unchecked power to arrest, detain, interrogate and even assassinate U.S. citizens with impunity.

Even WIRED magazine was outraged at this bill, reporting:

Senate Wants the Military to Lock You Up Without Trial

...the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isn't limited to foreigners. It's confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas' Robert Chesney — a nonpartisan authority on military detention — "U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority."

The passage of this law is nothing less than an outright declaration of WAR against the American People by the military-connected power elite. If this is signed into law, it will shred the remaining tenants of the Bill of Rights and unleash upon America a total military dictatorship, complete with secret arrests, secret prisons, unlawful interrogations, indefinite detainment without ever being charged with a crime, the torture of Americans and even the "legitimate assassination" of U.S. citizens right here on American soil!

If you have not yet woken up to the reality of the police state we've been warning you about, I hope you realize we are fast running out of time. Once this becomes law, you have no rights whatsoever in America. — no due process, no First Amendment speech rights, no right to remain silent, nothing.

Hmph.  The bill sounds terrible, but given the source, I'll have to look it over before making any real judgements.  As for Anonymous, is it just me, or do they seem to have an agenda similar to Micheal Moore?  As in, attention-whoring.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 07, 2011, 03:15:18 AM
Quote from: trix on December 07, 2011, 03:09:32 AM
Anonymous posts video about a bill that sounds bad.  Then starts quoting V for Vendetta, which I've been waiting for since I first saw them use the Guy Fawkes mask. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HrXyLrTRXso)


Quote

In a stunning move that has civil libertarians stuttering with disbelief, the U.S. Senate has just passed a bill that effectively ends the Bill of Rights in America.

The National Defense Authorization Act is being called the most traitorous act ever witnessed in the Senate, and the language of the bill is cleverly designed to make you think it doesn't apply to Americans, but toward the end of the bill, it essentially says it can apply to Americans "if we want it to.

Bill Summary & Status, 112th Congress (2011 -- 2012) | S.1867 | Latest Title: National Defense Authorization Act for.

This bill, passed late last night in a 93-7 vote, declares the entire USA to be a "battleground" upon which U.S. military forces can operate with impunity, overriding Posse Comitatus and granting the military the unchecked power to arrest, detain, interrogate and even assassinate U.S. citizens with impunity.

Even WIRED magazine was outraged at this bill, reporting:

Senate Wants the Military to Lock You Up Without Trial

...the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isn't limited to foreigners. It's confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas' Robert Chesney — a nonpartisan authority on military detention — "U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority."

The passage of this law is nothing less than an outright declaration of WAR against the American People by the military-connected power elite. If this is signed into law, it will shred the remaining tenants of the Bill of Rights and unleash upon America a total military dictatorship, complete with secret arrests, secret prisons, unlawful interrogations, indefinite detainment without ever being charged with a crime, the torture of Americans and even the "legitimate assassination" of U.S. citizens right here on American soil!

If you have not yet woken up to the reality of the police state we've been warning you about, I hope you realize we are fast running out of time. Once this becomes law, you have no rights whatsoever in America. — no due process, no First Amendment speech rights, no right to remain silent, nothing.

Hmph.  The bill sounds terrible, but given the source, I'll have to look it over before making any real judgements.  As for Anonymous, is it just me, or do they seem to have an agenda similar to Micheal Moore?  As in, attention-whoring.

No, that bill is exactly as advertised.

Which ought to make you happy.  After all, Michael Moore wouldn't approve of bills that allow military sweeps of Americans, followed by indefinite detention.  And we HATE Michael Moore.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 07, 2011, 04:19:50 AM
Quote from: trix on December 07, 2011, 03:09:32 AM
Anonymous posts video about a bill that sounds bad.  Then starts quoting V for Vendetta, which I've been waiting for since I first saw them use the Guy Fawkes mask. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HrXyLrTRXso)

[snip]

Hmph.  The bill sounds terrible, but given the source, I'll have to look it over before making any real judgements.  As for Anonymous, is it just me, or do they seem to have an agenda similar to Micheal Moore?  As in, attention-whoring.

Oh look, someone already created a thread for it. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30863.0)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on December 07, 2011, 06:42:37 AM
Quote from: Net on December 07, 2011, 04:19:50 AM
Quote from: trix on December 07, 2011, 03:09:32 AM
Anonymous posts video about a bill that sounds bad.  Then starts quoting V for Vendetta, which I've been waiting for since I first saw them use the Guy Fawkes mask. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HrXyLrTRXso)

[snip]

Hmph.  The bill sounds terrible, but given the source, I'll have to look it over before making any real judgements.  As for Anonymous, is it just me, or do they seem to have an agenda similar to Micheal Moore?  As in, attention-whoring.

Oh look, someone already created a thread for it. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=30863.0)

Ah, sorry.  Should have expected that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 07, 2011, 09:06:53 PM
In other news, Matheny reports that the police barricades used by police on his local protesters were repurposed to kettle the police (with the help of some stolen handcuffs). The police, quite confused, spent a few minutes trying to figure out what had happened, before calling for a truck to pick up the barricades and run away.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trix on December 08, 2011, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 07, 2011, 03:15:18 AM
(snip)

No, that bill is exactly as advertised.

Which ought to make you happy.  After all, Michael Moore wouldn't approve of bills that allow military sweeps of Americans, followed by indefinite detention.  And we HATE Michael Moore.

Missed this earlier.  Just curious, why ought it make ME happy, if YOU hate Michael Moore?  Or are you simply assuming I must hate him too, since I called him an attention whore?  Not a far stretch I suppose, given the amount of shit I've seen flung at him ITT, but nah.  He's opportunistic and vile, but I hold no hatred for him.  I meet plenty just like him every day.  Pity and humor would be more accurate, for me.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2011, 03:43:42 AM
Quote from: trix on December 08, 2011, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 07, 2011, 03:15:18 AM
(snip)

No, that bill is exactly as advertised.

Which ought to make you happy.  After all, Michael Moore wouldn't approve of bills that allow military sweeps of Americans, followed by indefinite detention.  And we HATE Michael Moore.

Missed this earlier.  Just curious, why ought it make ME happy, if YOU hate Michael Moore?  Or are you simply assuming I must hate him too, since I called him an attention whore?  Not a far stretch I suppose, given the amount of shit I've seen flung at him ITT, but nah.  He's opportunistic and vile, but I hold no hatred for him.  I meet plenty just like him every day.  Pity and humor would be more accurate, for me.

We, Trix, we.  You and I.  The two amigos.  We HATE Michael Moore, because he smells of fat guy underpance and squishy liberalness, and we all know REAL MEN aren't liberal.  You think John Wayne wouldn't have kicked Thomas Jefferson's hippie ass, given the chance?  Hell yeah, he would have, right before he went back to pounding on drunks and slapping women until they behaved.

So what kind of fucking sissy so-called "American" would have a problem with security sweeps and indefinite detention without trial?  A pack of pasty-faced Big Sur Goddamn hippie GIRLS, that's who.

But not you and I.  We're MANLY MEN.  And thus we support this assbaggery, and fart in public, just to make the pencil necks wince.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 09, 2011, 06:56:03 PM
The Egyptians know how this game is played

https://twitter.com/#!/arabist/status/137973675361181696

QuoteJust heard felool on State TV say, "In the West they suppress protests, so why can't we do it here?" #OWS #tahrir

Incidentally, it is US arms that are helping suppress protestors in Egypt currently, expressely authorized by the US government for sale to the military there.  But remember, Obama supports the Arab Spring!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 09, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2011, 03:43:42 AM
Quote from: trix on December 08, 2011, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 07, 2011, 03:15:18 AM
(snip)

No, that bill is exactly as advertised.

Which ought to make you happy.  After all, Michael Moore wouldn't approve of bills that allow military sweeps of Americans, followed by indefinite detention.  And we HATE Michael Moore.

Missed this earlier.  Just curious, why ought it make ME happy, if YOU hate Michael Moore?  Or are you simply assuming I must hate him too, since I called him an attention whore?  Not a far stretch I suppose, given the amount of shit I've seen flung at him ITT, but nah.  He's opportunistic and vile, but I hold no hatred for him.  I meet plenty just like him every day.  Pity and humor would be more accurate, for me.

We, Trix, we.  You and I.  The two amigos.  We HATE Michael Moore, because he smells of fat guy underpance and squishy liberalness, and we all know REAL MEN aren't liberal.  You think John Wayne wouldn't have kicked Thomas Jefferson's hippie ass, given the chance?  Hell yeah, he would have, right before he went back to pounding on drunks and slapping women until they behaved.

So what kind of fucking sissy so-called "American" would have a problem with security sweeps and indefinite detention without trial?  A pack of pasty-faced Big Sur Goddamn hippie GIRLS, that's who.

But not you and I.  We're MANLY MEN.  And thus we support this assbaggery, and fart in public, just to make the pencil necks wince.



I hate Michael Moore because he's never met a cause that is more important to him than constant self-promotion.  He's the Ben Mack of liberal protest movements....they actually had to throw him out of one General Assembly meeting in...Denver, IIRC, because he tried to take over the whole thing and appoint himself leader, without actually informing anyone that this was the case and getting their consent first.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 09, 2011, 07:44:53 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/fake-occupy-wall-street-tv-set-occupied-real-104023387.html

QuoteMeanwhile in real Occupy news, protesters in Boston — which may the longest, continually standing camp — and Phoenix faced possible eviction deadlines last night. The reports from Boston are that police decided not evict the protesters (despite warnings from the mayor about "further action"), though some Occupiers blocked the streets around Dewey Square, turning Atlantic Avenue into an impromptu "dance party."  It was a different story in Phoenix, however, as the tents there do appear to have been torn down by police and a handful of arrests have been made.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 09, 2011, 09:43:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2011, 03:43:42 AM
Quote from: trix on December 08, 2011, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 07, 2011, 03:15:18 AM
(snip)

No, that bill is exactly as advertised.

Which ought to make you happy.  After all, Michael Moore wouldn't approve of bills that allow military sweeps of Americans, followed by indefinite detention.  And we HATE Michael Moore.

Missed this earlier.  Just curious, why ought it make ME happy, if YOU hate Michael Moore?  Or are you simply assuming I must hate him too, since I called him an attention whore?  Not a far stretch I suppose, given the amount of shit I've seen flung at him ITT, but nah.  He's opportunistic and vile, but I hold no hatred for him.  I meet plenty just like him every day.  Pity and humor would be more accurate, for me.

We, Trix, we.  You and I.  The two amigos.  We HATE Michael Moore, because he smells of fat guy underpance and squishy liberalness, and we all know REAL MEN aren't liberal.  You think John Wayne wouldn't have kicked Thomas Jefferson's hippie ass, given the chance?  Hell yeah, he would have, right before he went back to pounding on drunks and slapping women until they behaved.

So what kind of fucking sissy so-called "American" would have a problem with security sweeps and indefinite detention without trial?  A pack of pasty-faced Big Sur Goddamn hippie GIRLS, that's who.

But not you and I.  We're MANLY MEN.  And thus we support this assbaggery, and fart in public, just to make the pencil necks wince.



I hate Michael Moore because he's never met a cause that is more important to him than constant self-promotion.  He's the Ben Mack of liberal protest movements....they actually had to throw him out of one General Assembly meeting in...Denver, IIRC, because he tried to take over the whole thing and appoint himself leader, without actually informing anyone that this was the case and getting their consent first.

Oh, agreed.

I was just having fun with Trix's weird Disco Pickle-channeling shit, is all.

:lord:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
I thought that may be the case.  I just had to bring up that incident, because it is pure Michael Moore.

In fact, the Denver Occupy people were the ones who elected a dog as their leader, and they did it precisely to spite Michael Moore, after his little performance with a bullhorn and ordering people around.  They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 10, 2011, 01:31:03 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
I thought that may be the case.  I just had to bring up that incident, because it is pure Michael Moore.

In fact, the Denver Occupy people were the ones who elected a dog as their leader, and they did it precisely to spite Michael Moore, after his little performance with a bullhorn and ordering people around.  They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I totally missed that.  This makes me sad.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Precious Moments Zalgo on December 10, 2011, 02:56:54 AM
Looks like a repeat of the '68 DNC in Charlotte next year is possible.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/09/democratic-national-convention-occupy-charlotte_n_1138820.html

QuoteThe protests may be a dress rehearsal for Occupy Charlotte leading up to the Democratic National Convention. An estimated 50,000 people will visit the city during the DNC, transforming the moderately-sized banking hub into the center of the universe -- or at least the nexus of the 24-hour cable news cycle -- for the week.

This is not lost on Occupy Charlotte and other Occupy groups in the state. Luis Rodriguez, 33, an organizer with Occupy Charlotte, said he's talked to several members of occupations in Asheville and Raleigh, as well as a group 90 miles away in Columbia, S.C. "Everybody I talked to said the DNC is ground zero for everything," he explained to The Huffington Post. "Everybody wants to be involved. We're estimating several thousands of people coming especially from the Occupy community."

The article also talks about the City of Charlotte trying to pass anti-occupy ordinances.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on December 10, 2011, 06:09:39 AM
Reverend holds solitary occupation

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/98ad1245a3344ff5b878c4e3c58b8c64/IL-Chicago-Rooftop-Vigil/

QuoteCHICAGO — The Rev. Corey Brooks has been camped out for nearly three weeks atop the ice-ridden roof of a shuttered motel that he says was a haven for drugs, prostitution and violence in one of Chicago's toughest neighborhoods.

Brooks, the leader of New Beginnings Church, has not left the roof since Nov. 19 and says he is staying until he raises enough money to buy the building across the street from his church, which he hopes to turn into an education center to fight crime and gangs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 10, 2011, 06:37:53 PM
The West Coast Port Blockade is going down Monday the 12th.

Portland assholes: 6am at Kelly Point Park.

Other kinds of assholes can go here: http://westcoastportshutdown.org/ for more information.

SHUT 'ER DOWN!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 12, 2011, 08:27:01 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.

Well, then, when you organize an OWS rally, don't put a fucking dog in charge of it.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 12, 2011, 08:33:51 PM
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/10/12/128683027854901414.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 12, 2011, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:33:51 PM
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/10/12/128683027854901414.jpg)

I regret that I cannot see your generic pic from the cheezburger site on this computer.

So your point has not been made.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 12, 2011, 08:40:20 PM
Livestream of the Portland port shutdown:

http://www.livestream.com/occupyptown
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Disco Pickle on December 12, 2011, 09:00:10 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 09, 2011, 09:43:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2011, 03:43:42 AM
Quote from: trix on December 08, 2011, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 07, 2011, 03:15:18 AM
(snip)

No, that bill is exactly as advertised.

Which ought to make you happy.  After all, Michael Moore wouldn't approve of bills that allow military sweeps of Americans, followed by indefinite detention.  And we HATE Michael Moore.

Missed this earlier.  Just curious, why ought it make ME happy, if YOU hate Michael Moore?  Or are you simply assuming I must hate him too, since I called him an attention whore?  Not a far stretch I suppose, given the amount of shit I've seen flung at him ITT, but nah.  He's opportunistic and vile, but I hold no hatred for him.  I meet plenty just like him every day.  Pity and humor would be more accurate, for me.

We, Trix, we.  You and I.  The two amigos.  We HATE Michael Moore, because he smells of fat guy underpance and squishy liberalness, and we all know REAL MEN aren't liberal.  You think John Wayne wouldn't have kicked Thomas Jefferson's hippie ass, given the chance?  Hell yeah, he would have, right before he went back to pounding on drunks and slapping women until they behaved.

So what kind of fucking sissy so-called "American" would have a problem with security sweeps and indefinite detention without trial?  A pack of pasty-faced Big Sur Goddamn hippie GIRLS, that's who.

But not you and I.  We're MANLY MEN.  And thus we support this assbaggery, and fart in public, just to make the pencil necks wince.



I hate Michael Moore because he's never met a cause that is more important to him than constant self-promotion.  He's the Ben Mack of liberal protest movements....they actually had to throw him out of one General Assembly meeting in...Denver, IIRC, because he tried to take over the whole thing and appoint himself leader, without actually informing anyone that this was the case and getting their consent first.

Oh, agreed.

I was just having fun with Trix's weird Disco Pickle-channeling shit, is all.

:lord:

:walken:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 12, 2011, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.

Who are you, anyway?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 12, 2011, 09:13:16 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 12, 2011, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.

Who are you, anyway?

Apparently someone who thinks non-sequiters are the height of wit, and who doesn't like dogs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on December 12, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.
Are you allergic? Have you only ever met rat dogs? If you answer no to either of those questions, I don't trust you.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on December 12, 2011, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 12, 2011, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.

Who are you, anyway?

its Enki.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 12, 2011, 09:19:52 PM
Quote from: Pixie on December 12, 2011, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 12, 2011, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.

Who are you, anyway?

its Enki.

Oh. Of course it is. That's why he has a butthole sigil for a name.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 12, 2011, 09:20:37 PM
Quote from: Pixie on December 12, 2011, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 12, 2011, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.

Who are you, anyway?

its Enki.

Well, that explains the fucking idiotic non-sequitor.

Christ.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 13, 2011, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 12, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.
Are you allergic? Have you only ever met rat dogs? If you answer no to either of those questions, I don't trust you.

No, no, and yes.

Quote from: Nigel
That's why he has a butthole sigil for a name.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummo#Ummo)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 13, 2011, 02:47:45 AM
Quote from: )+( on December 13, 2011, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 12, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.
Are you allergic? Have you only ever met rat dogs? If you answer no to either of those questions, I don't trust you.

No, no, and yes.

Quote from: Nigel
That's why he has a butthole sigil for a name.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummo#Ummo)

Looks like a butthole. Which is perfectly appropriate.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 13, 2011, 12:59:11 PM
Who the fuck doesn't like dogs?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Chairman Risus on December 13, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5e899a0v1qzma4ho1_500.jpg)

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2011, 09:38:57 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 13, 2011, 02:23:30 AM
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummo#Ummo)

Jesus H Christ.  Shut the fuck up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 13, 2011, 09:39:49 PM
Thread is now about Enki's fucking assburgers.

Well done, Enki.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on December 13, 2011, 09:58:57 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 13, 2011, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 12, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.
Are you allergic? Have you only ever met rat dogs? If you answer no to either of those questions, I don't trust you.

No, no, and yes.

Quote from: Nigel
That's why he has a butthole sigil for a name.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina)

Fixed. Now get studying Enki.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 13, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: Risus on December 13, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5e899a0v1qzma4ho1_500.jpg)



In spite of that, Occupy is doing ok.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2011, 10:48:04 PM
Are there plans for further rounds of protests in New York, LA etc?

I'll admit, I haven't exactly gone looking, but I haven't heard much about the response to the shutdown of the protests and what the next move is.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 13, 2011, 11:12:19 PM
I know that Occupy Portland managed to shut down two of the Port of Portland terminals, no idea how the rest of the west coast port blockade fared.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Chairman Risus on December 13, 2011, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: Net on December 13, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: Risus on December 13, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5e899a0v1qzma4ho1_500.jpg


In spite of that, Occupy is doing ok.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 14, 2011, 02:19:41 AM
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on December 13, 2011, 09:58:57 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 13, 2011, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 12, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: )+( on December 12, 2011, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2011, 09:47:18 PM
They decided if they were going to have a hairy leader, it may as well be one that would be friendly and universally liked.

I don't like dogs.
Are you allergic? Have you only ever met rat dogs? If you answer no to either of those questions, I don't trust you.

No, no, and yes.

Quote from: Nigel
That's why he has a butthole sigil for a name.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina)

Fixed. Now get studying Enki.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 14, 2011, 02:20:11 AM
Quote from: Risus on December 13, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5e899a0v1qzma4ho1_500.jpg)



This is good.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on December 14, 2011, 04:19:27 AM
Occupy LA's facebook is still going - rallies being planned and live feed of the general assembly linked to: https://www.facebook.com/occupyLA (twenty seven minutes ago as of 8:18pm PST)
I'll see what else I can find.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on December 14, 2011, 07:19:59 AM
There was some good stuff trending on Twitter under #portshutdown. Last I heard, Seattle and LA have voted to continue the shutdown due to violence used by law enforcement.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 14, 2011, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: Risus on December 13, 2011, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: Net on December 13, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: Risus on December 13, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5e899a0v1qzma4ho1_500.jpg


In spite of that, Occupy is doing ok.

What do you mean?

In spite of the mainstream media smearing or not covering Occupy, they've got decent turn out for their major actions (for example, the port shutdown was fairly successful) and continually have stuff simmering out of the public eye that anyone can jump into.

Did you think I meant in spite of the anti-corporate sentiment Occupy is doing ok?  :crankey:


Here's a quick sample of the two main terminals Occupy Portland shut down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1KSBKiwvwk&context=C2c97cADOEgsToPDskJL1k3SO06_7JSYa6K4MBev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL9ug75IRIc&feature=context&context=C2c97cADOEgsToPDskJL1k3SO06_7JSYa6K4MBev
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on December 16, 2011, 12:05:14 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 13, 2011, 10:48:04 PM
Are there plans for further rounds of protests in New York, LA etc?

I'll admit, I haven't exactly gone looking, but I haven't heard much about the response to the shutdown of the protests and what the next move is.


hxxps://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=242159755852006&set=a.217603604974288.57691.217514361649879&type=1&theater


This is something I ran across...might be interesting. Gives time for planning being that it's a month away.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:39:20 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:40:08 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:39:20 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.

I don't think so.

That's just your bad attitude.  I am sure they are unconnected.  Citizen.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:58:24 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:40:08 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:39:20 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.

I don't think so.

That's just your bad attitude.  I am sure they are unconnected.  Citizen.

:x

"I am a US citizen" just doesn't carry the ring of safety it once did.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on December 16, 2011, 04:00:35 AM
"But I'm a citizen of Rome!" Yeah....
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on December 16, 2011, 04:21:10 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.

If we cant protect the poor defenseless banks from those rabid evil hippies and homeless people then we can hardly call ourselves civilized, now can we?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Thurnez Isa on December 16, 2011, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.

question
how long do you think it is till those in the occupy movement are labeled as terrorists?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:13:48 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on December 16, 2011, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 AM
I wonder if it's any coincidence that the failure of winter to end the occupy movements coincided with Obama's decision not to veto the "defense" bill.

question
how long do you think it is till those in the occupy movement are labeled as terrorists?

Before year's end, I think.  Certainly no later than the new "defense" bill's provisions come into effect.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Igor on December 16, 2011, 08:45:29 PM
It would seem London got there first:

(http://craphound.com/images/COLPduh1-cleaned_184915.jpg)

Source (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-include-occupy-movement-on-%E2%80%98terror%E2%80%99-list.html)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on December 17, 2011, 07:44:19 PM
http://www.portlandoccupier.org/2011/12/15/occupy-portland-outsmarts-police-creating-blueprint-for-other-occupations/



Some very interesting tactical analysis of the PDX Occupy faction. I think Net may have hinted at this earlier.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 17, 2011, 08:33:13 PM
Quote from: Telarus on December 17, 2011, 07:44:19 PM
http://www.portlandoccupier.org/2011/12/15/occupy-portland-outsmarts-police-creating-blueprint-for-other-occupations/

Some very interesting tactical analysis of the PDX Occupy faction. I think Net may have hinted at this earlier.

That's a good article. I'm curious what military tards think about it.

Quote
In summary: when the cops come to clear the park, don't resist. As they are preparing for their military maneuver and use of force that the Occupiers cannot reasonably be expected to resist, the occupiers should be packing up their tents and baggage and loading them into wagons, bicycles, backpacks, etc.

Force the cops to clear the park inch by inch, but try to avoid arrest in so doing. Once they have cleared the park, rouse the crowd through loud amplification announcing that you intend to march (any destination will do). Get the music blaring and then march aimlessly, blocking traffic the whole way, for hours. The crowd will be energized and willing to march for a long time, being spurred on by energetic music and chants.

The police will eventually trim down their entourage because they realize that they are helpless. Eventually, work your way back to the park. Or, if the police have fenced off the park, head to another park. If the police force you out, march again and they will be forced to follow. Eventually, they will inevitably come to the conclusion that they would rather have you in a park than disrupting traffic.

The police have no response to this tactic, other than resorting to brutality. And if they do that, we win whether they clear the park or not.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 17, 2011, 11:12:10 PM
FOX POLL: Do 'Occupy Wall Street' protesters represent your views about the nation's economic problems? (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/10/07/do-occupy-wall-street-protests-represent-your-views-economy/#ixzz1gpueg2MR)

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on December 18, 2011, 03:16:49 AM
What happened to that lady who allegedly miscarried due to police brutality? I heard there were some doubts raised about her story but I never really saw any real real follow up.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on December 18, 2011, 03:20:02 AM
Quote from: Net on December 17, 2011, 08:33:13 PM
Quote from: Telarus on December 17, 2011, 07:44:19 PM
http://www.portlandoccupier.org/2011/12/15/occupy-portland-outsmarts-police-creating-blueprint-for-other-occupations/

Some very interesting tactical analysis of the PDX Occupy faction. I think Net may have hinted at this earlier.

That's a good article. I'm curious what military tards think about it.

Quote
In summary: when the cops come to clear the park, don't resist. As they are preparing for their military maneuver and use of force that the Occupiers cannot reasonably be expected to resist, the occupiers should be packing up their tents and baggage and loading them into wagons, bicycles, backpacks, etc.

Force the cops to clear the park inch by inch, but try to avoid arrest in so doing. Once they have cleared the park, rouse the crowd through loud amplification announcing that you intend to march (any destination will do). Get the music blaring and then march aimlessly, blocking traffic the whole way, for hours. The crowd will be energized and willing to march for a long time, being spurred on by energetic music and chants.

The police will eventually trim down their entourage because they realize that they are helpless. Eventually, work your way back to the park. Or, if the police have fenced off the park, head to another park. If the police force you out, march again and they will be forced to follow. Eventually, they will inevitably come to the conclusion that they would rather have you in a park than disrupting traffic.

The police have no response to this tactic, other than resorting to brutality. And if they do that, we win whether they clear the park or not.

John Robb, the Global Guerrilas writer, who definitely counts as a military tard, although with different tactical thinking than most, mentioned this tactic and praised it rather emphatically.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 18, 2011, 10:21:15 AM
Given that Global Guerillas hasn't been worth a shit since 2008 I'm not the least bit surprised that BH is a fan.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on December 19, 2011, 02:31:15 PM
GG has some interesting links fairly often.  i don't think i had seen it before 2008, but what's it lost?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 19, 2011, 02:39:04 PM
He rarely ever actually talks about war, terrorism and insurgency any more.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on February 01, 2012, 07:02:36 PM
http://www.thenation.com/blog/165883/occupy-effect

Quote
I don't know how Occupy Wall Street will impact the 2012 election, but one thing seems pretty clear: it's changed the national conversation.

A few short months ago, the corporate media and inside-the-Beltway chatter was all debt and deficits, all the time.

Occupy changed that. It reset the media narrative so it's more aligned with the true crises of our times—income inequality, downward mobility and economic fairness. It's also renewed attention to corporate accountability and the corrosive role of corporate money in politics.

Just look at the media's use of the words "inequality" and "greed" post-Occupy. As Peter Dreier notes, a Lexis/Nexis search shows that US newspapers published 409 stories with the word "inequality" in October 2010. Through September 2011, the number of stories about "inequality" remained roughly the same. But in October 2011, when OWS erupted across the country and overseas, the frequency skyrocketed to 1,269 stories.

You can see a similar pattern with stories on "greed." Between October 2010 and September 2011, "greed" stories fluctuated between 452 and 728. But in October of that year newspapers stories on greed jumped to 2,285.

:bankster:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on February 04, 2012, 06:27:52 PM
Quote from: KMFDM Bitch-Slaps Plutocracy With A Drug Against Wall Street

The whole #OccupyWallStreet thing is cool and all, but it's not a real party until some heavyweights of radical music start throwing their weight behind it. Fans of industrial metal will be pleased to know that KMFDM has done just that, releasing a new version of their classic track (which the more angsty of us rocked in our angsty bedrooms over a decade ago), A Drug Against War, but have altered their own lyrics to spotlight the recent rebellion against evil psycho-clown corporations.

The vocals in the track are now all about defeating our shady bankster-GMO-Annunaki overlords with the new title A Drug Against Wall Street (http://www.kmfdm.net/adrugagainstwallstreet/)! Calling upon the 99% to "march to the drum of the ultra heavy beat," the vocals warn against remaining passive to the ravages of class warfare, warning us rather succinctly that "make no mistake, our children's future is at stake."

Shortly after the release of this slammer in its new incarnation, KMFDM's founder and front-man, Sascha K, stated, "On Oct 15, I suddenly had this idea of doing a new version... using alternate lyrics voicing support of the Occupy Wall Street movement. Working quickly I was able to get it done and posted so it could be made available for free to everyone during the Global Day Of Action."

Download/listen/stream the track via here:

http://www.kmfdm.net/adrugagainstwallstreet/

I just did, and it's rather awesome. (of course the original is pretty sweet as well)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on February 05, 2012, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 04, 2012, 06:27:52 PM
Quote from: KMFDM Bitch-Slaps Plutocracy With A Drug Against Wall Street

The whole #OccupyWallStreet thing is cool and all, but it's not a real party until some heavyweights of radical music start throwing their weight behind it. Fans of industrial metal will be pleased to know that KMFDM has done just that, releasing a new version of their classic track (which the more angsty of us rocked in our angsty bedrooms over a decade ago), A Drug Against War, but have altered their own lyrics to spotlight the recent rebellion against evil psycho-clown corporations.

The vocals in the track are now all about defeating our shady bankster-GMO-Annunaki overlords with the new title A Drug Against Wall Street (http://www.kmfdm.net/adrugagainstwallstreet/)! Calling upon the 99% to "march to the drum of the ultra heavy beat," the vocals warn against remaining passive to the ravages of class warfare, warning us rather succinctly that "make no mistake, our children's future is at stake."

Shortly after the release of this slammer in its new incarnation, KMFDM's founder and front-man, Sascha K, stated, "On Oct 15, I suddenly had this idea of doing a new version... using alternate lyrics voicing support of the Occupy Wall Street movement. Working quickly I was able to get it done and posted so it could be made available for free to everyone during the Global Day Of Action."

Download/listen/stream the track via here:

http://www.kmfdm.net/adrugagainstwallstreet/

I just did, and it's rather awesome. (of course the original is pretty sweet as well)

Fuck yeah!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on February 05, 2012, 01:21:43 PM
Things going well in DC (http://m.youtube.com/?rdm=4pf3n2491&reload=3#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Ffeature%3Dplayer_embedded%26v%3DM6VmmKrFkaY&feature=player_embedded&v=M6VmmKrFkaY&gl=AU)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 07, 2012, 07:43:33 PM
http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/archives/2012/02/07/lawmakers-add-jail-time-to-anti-occupy-nashville-bill

QuoteThe bill to evict Occupy Nashville kept rolling through the legislature today, winning easy approval in the House Judiciary Committee. But first, lawmakers rubbed it in by jacking up the penalty for violations. Now if you're caught in a tent on the Legislative Plaza or under a bridge or anywhere else on public property where camping isn't permitted in Tennessee, you could go to jail for 11 months and 29 days and pay a $2,500 fine.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2012, 07:57:57 PM
Gonna be some full jails.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 07, 2012, 07:58:51 PM
You can't just use public property in any way you like, after all.  There are rules.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2012, 08:00:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 07, 2012, 07:58:51 PM
You can't just use public property in any way you like, after all.  There are rules.

And God forbid we LISTEN to the protesters.  We can't encourage that sort.  If they want to be heard, they can make a big fat campaign contribution, like everyone else.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 07, 2012, 08:06:43 PM
Well, protestors are just smelly hippies.  I find the property aspect of it quite amusing, since apparently property rights are sacrosanct, except when it comes to public property.  Then all of a sudden there are regulations and shit.

This is especially amusing because we have essentially two things (big government and disregard for property) which allegedly outrage conservatives, but wont because Occupy is Communism + Islam + Soros + ACORN.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2012, 08:08:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 07, 2012, 08:06:43 PM
Well, protestors are just smelly hippies.  I find the property aspect of it quite amusing, since apparently property rights are sacrosanct, except when it comes to public property.  Then all of a sudden there are regulations and shit.

This is especially amusing because we have essentially two things (big government and disregard for property) which allegedly outrage conservatives, but wont because Occupy is Communism + Islam + Soros + ACORN.

Well, it's interesting watching the memes conflict in their pointy little heads.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on February 07, 2012, 08:15:10 PM
I have a feeling they're used to this mental pretzel-ing, simply from having to juggle "The State can't tell me how to run my life/We need laws to keep gays from marrying each other" for the past n years.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 07, 2012, 08:17:59 PM
Oh, absolutely.  But find a political forum and frame the argument in that way, and watch them twist and contort to justify how public property isn't real property or how since the Occupy protestors are "all unemployed" they don't get a say in how it used (which leads to further hilarious contortions, when you follow the logic of the argument, never mind the factual inaccuracy) and other hilarious consequences of cognitive dissonance.

Eventually they'll just spazz out incoherently at you.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on February 07, 2012, 08:25:18 PM
Hmm.. That gives me an idea...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: DiscoRadio on February 07, 2012, 11:06:00 PM
When Occupy started, I was so psyched! The urban camping (on the weekends; I still have a job!) was enthralling and a good opportunity to explore a city I've seen all my life. The cops seemed to largely agree with our sentiments and it felt like some of the silly politicorporate shit was finally about to melt away. We were all taking on much larger tasks of organizing than we had ever attempted. If something needed to be fixed for PR or simple convenience of continued occupation, you did it; if you couldn't do it, there were plenty of volunteers. The world felt like it was wrapped in a loving embrace of solidarity.

Then we had a bunch of random protesters none of us had ever seen before who were protesting on "Police Brutality Day." Don't get me wrong, police brutality sucks. Some of the shit going on in Seattle lately absolutely sickens me, (deleting police car footage, making such removal of evidence legal, etc.) but this was not in Seattle; we were occupying Atlanta. These unaffiliated protesters started shouting all kinds of biased shit at the officers present and it wound up with the mayor behind a command center vehicle shouting his nads off and a group of some 30 or 40 officers across the street just laughing at it all.

From that point on, the Atlanta occupation got more and more focused on race, and much less focused on economic issues. A new martyr was selected: some guy who was shot in the back because he flashed a gun at an officer and started running from what I can tell. Note that our site was unofficially renamed to "Troy Davis park" from the very start of it all. Troy Davis himself is a dubious case of injustice as well. I attended a few rallies back in my activist days, but now it looks more and more like the only reason he ever seemed innocent to me was because of a viral social media campaign to get him off the hook.

The final straw for me was on the first "reoccupation night" (and they have been many without success). A black man from Occupy DC informed me that I was slightly racist for preferring Ron Paul to Obama, because Ron Paul may not have said anything racist himself, but allowing somebody to write something racist in his name made him a little racist at best. First, I have no clue how so many people at these occupations can still support Obama (or any politician) and say they keep up with the news. Second, I was clearly not exhibiting racist behavior and I am so sick of getting shit for being born to the "oppressor race." Third, the area we attempted to occupy that night happened to be the MLK memorial and that entire exchange was so against the spirit of the moment that I nearly punched this guy.

After 30 minutes of confused attempts at putting up tents which were destroyed in the big raid, we were surrounded by 10 motorcycles, 15 cop cars, and being hovered over by 2 low-flying helicopters with spotlights. Typical overkill relative to what we'd experienced since. For some reason there were even CSI vehicles hanging around on the big eviction night. :lol: I realized the mayor was just going to continue spending as much money as possible to thwart the tremendous threat of non-violent hippies and then complain about how much money they had cost him. I also realized that the last thing they wanted around was another white male who wanted to focus on destroying the ties between the political and financial sectors on days when he didn't have to be at work.

I did leave with a very iconic quote though:
"A true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies. On the one hand, we are called to play the Good Samaritan on life's roadside, but that will be only an initial act. One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho Road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life's highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Wolfgang Absolutus on February 08, 2012, 12:55:04 AM
I used to be an anarchist. But then I took a chill-pill. If we aren't going to bother abolishing capitalism, the least we could do is provide help for the least advantaged of us and separate money from politics so we can get some democracy back. No system will be perfect, but that isn't a reason we shouldn't at least try to reform this one.Occupy is a good thing in terms of reform movements. Maybe it will take a couple more years but maybe something will be accomplished by those sweet nonviolent hippies, regular people with a bone to pick, and violent anarchists who want to burn down the system or something.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 09:21:50 AM
I think Occupy needs a new verb.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2012, 10:46:54 AM
"Fucking the shit up of".

Ie "fucking the shit up of Wall Street".

Watching serious newscasters talk about the Fucking Shit Up Movement would just be an added bonus.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
Specifically, I mean they need a new tactic other than just standing around. 

We're here.

We're still here.

Get used to it?

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2012, 11:21:05 AM
"Accidentally the whole Wall Street"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Placid Dingo on February 08, 2012, 12:07:49 PM
I guess the deal with that is that occupation as a protest method was really sOmething new at the start of this whole thing.

Contradict if needed.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2012, 12:59:25 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
Specifically, I mean they need a new tactic other than just standing around. 

We're here.

We're still here.

Get used to it?

Fucking the shit up is also a tactic.

While I don't hold high hopes in this regard, I honestly hope the Occupy movement start looking at French, Greek and Thai protests of recent years.  I think if they move to systems disruption, they could effectively rival the banks in their ability to hold the economy hostage.  And that is the only countermeasure which could actually check the influence of the investment banks.  They threaten to implode the global economy on virtually a weekly basis...but realistically, they're a very small minority, whom a government could move against.  If given the right incentives.

Another angle would be for the Occupy movement to try and advise friendly, or at least currently non-hostile government actors how they can help check the influence of Wall Street, while trying to win over neutrals by explaining why it is important.  For the former, the use of Rico laws, anti-terrorism legislation, fraud, anti-trust...basically things that are already on the books but aren't being used creatively or that politicians have actually forgotten about.  Meanwhile, framing the argument that a healthy economy is a decentralized economy, an economy that is robust and can absorb huge financial shocks, and that the banks hate that because it affects their political power, and the argument that the banks are actually engaged in criminal acts, might go a long way in persuading people to be, at the very least, more suspicious of them and their motives.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on February 08, 2012, 03:45:24 PM
Occupy was fucked from the beginning.
It tried to be something of Change for this clusterfuck of politics in the world, but it (imo) is playing in the same game of politics.
This 'movement' will and has opened doors for more transparency within what governments are doing but it also will and has opened doors to control the shit outta people too.
-maph
convinced this shit was started to 'occupy' our time and shit.

/pessimism.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on February 08, 2012, 03:48:21 PM
I think it made a lot of people take notice of a lot of things about modern politics.

If nothing changes as a result, a lesson will also be learned; peaceful protest is useless.

Consider what that might mean for the coming generation, who are going to be fucked in the ass for foreseeable future, and the methods they may use to protest that instead.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 04:03:30 PM
I think that the Occupy movement has been a useful part of a larger movement that doesn't have an identity yet. Part of the reason it doesn't have an identity is because people are still allowing themselves to think they are divided along party lines, when in fact at this point the division is largely illusory, a myth propagated by the mass media.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on February 08, 2012, 04:07:50 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on February 08, 2012, 03:48:21 PM
peaceful protest is useless.

yup.

And also-the coming generations are going to be fucked just as the former generations.
With or without ANY kind of protests.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Oh wait, I was suppose to stop the pessimism on my previous post.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on February 08, 2012, 04:09:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 04:03:30 PM
I think that the Occupy movement has been a useful part of a larger movement that doesn't have an identity yet. Part of the reason it doesn't have an identity is because people are still allowing themselves to think they are divided along party lines, when in fact at this point the division is largely illusory, a myth propagated by the mass media.

Here's to hoping Nigel.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Scribbly on February 08, 2012, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: maphdet on February 08, 2012, 04:07:50 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on February 08, 2012, 03:48:21 PM
peaceful protest is useless.

yup.

And also-the coming generations are going to be fucked just as the former generations.
With or without ANY kind of protests.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Oh wait, I was suppose to stop the pessimism on my previous post.

Yeah, you're right. The past decade has shown without a doubt that all the systems that make up modern society are completely inviolable and stable. Nothing anyone can do can possibly alter this fact and cause change.

Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 04:03:30 PM
I think that the Occupy movement has been a useful part of a larger movement that doesn't have an identity yet. Part of the reason it doesn't have an identity is because people are still allowing themselves to think they are divided along party lines, when in fact at this point the division is largely illusory, a myth propagated by the mass media.


I agree. I think people are starting to wake up to the two man con on a large scale.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 04:16:03 PM
85% of the U.S. population thinks that corporations have too much influence on government. There is a drive for a constitutional amendment that will define "people" as individual human beings. I think people are starting to be aware that there really aren't two sides doing battle, but one populace being manipulated by corporate interests. I'd like to see that meme grow.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on February 08, 2012, 05:02:12 PM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwe44sH8rv1qi4krqo1_500.jpg)

behind that cape, occupy's totally finger blasting the middle class
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2012, 05:24:42 PM
I find it very interesting that, in America, populism is defined almost entirely in terms of the middle class.  This makes the USA an aberration among modern democracies, where usually the working class is the focus of populist rhetoric, whether leftwing or right.

Probably because a) in the US, using the words "working class" marks you out as a Communist, or some kind of fancy social sciences intellectual (aka, a Communist), b) everyone in the US except for those firmly on the bottom rungs of society are conditioned to think of themselves as "middle class", either through self-deception and aspiration, or through a misunderstanding of power and wealth disparities within the US, and c) just because.

It really bugs me when I see people banging on about "tEh mIdDlE class", because it kinda gives me the impression they haven't really thought through any of the above, or that their posturing is a desperate attempt to seperate themselves from the dreaded working class as an act of Will.

Incidentally, as far as I'm concerned, as long as you don't own a means of production, you're working class.  But I'm old fashioned like that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on February 08, 2012, 05:31:46 PM
That's a really interesting point. I rarely hear the phrase "working class" in that modern populist rhetoric. And until a few months ago, populism (in mainstream discussion) was mostly of a rawr government=bad libertarian thing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 05:36:05 PM
Quote from: maphdet on February 08, 2012, 03:45:24 PM
Occupy was fucked from the beginning.
It tried to be something of Change for this clusterfuck of politics in the world, but it (imo) is playing in the same game of politics.
This 'movement' will and has opened doors for more transparency within what governments are doing but it also will and has opened doors to control the shit outta people too.
-maph
convinced this shit was started to 'occupy' our time and shit.

/pessimism.

One thing the Obama presidency has done:  It has reminded me that "transparency" can mean "I can see through it", but it can also mean "I can't see it at all".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2012, 05:42:53 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 08, 2012, 05:31:46 PM
That's a really interesting point. I rarely hear the phrase "working class" in that modern populist rhetoric. And until a few months ago, populism (in mainstream discussion) was mostly of a rawr government=bad libertarian thing.

It's something that has bugged me for the last two years.  A lot of talk of Dem blogs etc about "restoring the middle class" or "saving the middle class".  I used to ask "so that does that mean you're cutting your losses and considering the working class expendable?  Oh, of course you are, you're Democratic partisans on the internet", but I got banned a lot for that line of mockery.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on February 08, 2012, 05:48:03 PM
You're right that few people [around here at least] think of themselves as "working class", even if they're not entirely sure what defines middle class.

A while back, somebody (you?) posted something along the lines that unemployment benefits, medicare, etc, were created to keep the middle class from feeling any solidarity with the working class.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 05:49:45 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 08, 2012, 05:48:03 PM
You're right that few people [around here at least] think of themselves as "working class", even if they're not entirely sure what defines middle class.

A while back, somebody (you?) posted something along the lines that unemployment benefits, medicare, etc, were created to keep the middle class from feeling any solidarity with the working class.

To me, middle class is an utterly meaningless term.

Either you have to work for a living or you don't.  If you do, you're working class.  If you don't, you're Mitt Romney.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2012, 06:00:48 PM
Middle class is essentially a social term, though to be able to achieve some of the social standards and expectations, a certain level of economic achievement is necessary precondition.

Cram, I don't know if I posted that, but it's certainly the way it seems to be used, yes.  It has also been used as either part of a gradualist strategy towards a socialist democracy (Fabians) or, more normally, as an attempt to buy off the working classes from Communism (Kennedy etc).

Since there is no communism to worry about anymore, there is no need to buy off the working class.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 06:03:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 08, 2012, 06:00:48 PM
Middle class is essentially a social term, though to be able to achieve some of the social standards and expectations, a certain level of economic achievement is necessary precondition.

No argument there.  I'm just saying that right NOW, you are either one or the other, working class or Mitt Romney.  There is no functioning middle.  You are a predator, or you are prey.

And if there was ever an indictment of America, that's it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2012, 06:26:31 PM
Oh yeah, no disagreement.  As you'll see, I said pretty much the same thing above.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 08, 2012, 06:39:43 PM
perhaps it is the terminology's implications?
you have 'middle class' which would imply the existence of an 'upper class' or a 'high class'.  people are always looking up, so they certainly acknowledge that there is a class above them.
then there is the implication of a.... "what did you call it? 'working class'?  well. i certainly work, but i'm not lower class so, i must be middle."
without a formal definition of the classes based on income or whatnot, then who wouldn't want to avoid calling themselves 'lower class' if you're not destitute?

hmm....
republican view of classes: red team middle class v. blue team welfare mooches and the unscrupulous rich that pander to them.
democrat view of classes: blue team middle class v. red team redneck trash and the unscrupulous rich that pander to them.
politically beneficial to propagate the notion of a middle class in the execution of the two man con?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 06:56:37 PM
God punishes bad people by making them poor.


And that's the story of where poor people come from. Goodnight everybody.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
There's also the implication that if "working class" =/= "middle class", then obviously, the middle class doesn't work.

And, considering the bullshit I have to do to earn a paycheck, it sure as FUCK isn't working.  It's making work for others.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 07:42:22 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 08, 2012, 05:24:42 PM
I find it very interesting that, in America, populism is defined almost entirely in terms of the middle class.  This makes the USA an aberration among modern democracies, where usually the working class is the focus of populist rhetoric, whether leftwing or right.

Probably because a) in the US, using the words "working class" marks you out as a Communist, or some kind of fancy social sciences intellectual (aka, a Communist), b) everyone in the US except for those firmly on the bottom rungs of society are conditioned to think of themselves as "middle class", either through self-deception and aspiration, or through a misunderstanding of power and wealth disparities within the US, and c) just because.

It really bugs me when I see people banging on about "tEh mIdDlE class", because it kinda gives me the impression they haven't really thought through any of the above, or that their posturing is a desperate attempt to seperate themselves from the dreaded working class as an act of Will.

Incidentally, as far as I'm concerned, as long as you don't own a means of production, you're working class.  But I'm old fashioned like that.

Essentially the U.S. uses these terms colloquially in an entirely different way from the way they have historically been used in Europe. As we lack a formal aristocracy, we sort of invented our own class terms and even the way we use them is really muddy. A huge part of the reason for that is because historically the U.S. has had an enormous middle class, and most of the working class were economically considered middle class so working class was often used synonymously with middle class. It's only been recently that working class has been split out as a euphemism to describe the working poor.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 08, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
And, considering the bullshit I have to do to earn a paycheck, it sure as FUCK isn't working.  It's making work for others.

Not everyone works with their hands.  This ain't 1200 CE.

What's really funny about the modern world is that we CAN'T FUNCTION without that weird bullshit.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 07:53:05 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

But they are, in the sense that they're in the same herd of prey.

Their actual mistake is thinking that - somehow - the doors to the upper class will one day be open to them.  So they don't want any legislation that will fuck it up for them later.  "Pre-rich" is the term used to describe these low-functioning retards, last I heard.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 07:57:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 08, 2012, 05:42:53 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 08, 2012, 05:31:46 PM
That's a really interesting point. I rarely hear the phrase "working class" in that modern populist rhetoric. And until a few months ago, populism (in mainstream discussion) was mostly of a rawr government=bad libertarian thing.

It's something that has bugged me for the last two years.  A lot of talk of Dem blogs etc about "restoring the middle class" or "saving the middle class".  I used to ask "so that does that mean you're cutting your losses and considering the working class expendable?  Oh, of course you are, you're Democratic partisans on the internet", but I got banned a lot for that line of mockery.

Functionally speaking, it means narrowing the currently widening gap between productivity and wages. The reason our middle class (upon whom our economy largely depends, with their free time and disposable income) is disappearing is because around 1970 productivity continued to increase, but wages did not. Increased profits pooled money in banks, and personal loans started to become a hugely profitable of the banking industry. Manufacturers saw that lending was profitable and got into the business of it, in some cases (GMAC) to the degree that it became the cornerstone of their business. The wage disparity continued to increase along with debt as increasingly pinched workers made purchases on credit in order to keep up with the consumeristic ideals instilled into them by the pervasive idea of American exceptionalism. The money surplus (at the top) led to some pretty baseless speculative investing, which led to the dot.com bubble and subsequent crash, after which the government decided to recover by encouraging spending not by raising worker wages, but by providing lender incentives so that workers would go into even more debt in order to BUY STUFF. That "stuff" is the American Dream, in this case houses.

And you see where that got us.

The glorious awful truth at the core of it all is that this whole mess was started by women entering the workforce en masse, combined with our idiotic laissez-faire government deciding that capitalism would just work it all out, no need for laws that reduce the work week to compensate for the glut of workers so the labor market could adjust or anything... but that law that requires corporations to make profit their highest priority at the expense of all else is just dandy and can stay.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

This is, interestingly, not quite true, but it IS what the media machine wants you to think. So that we all sit tight in our little homes thinking that everyone else in America is a fucking idiot and there's no possibility of changing anything because the Majority Sides With Them, not us.

It's a huge manipulation game, along with Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! Gay marriage!

This is how it works: "I'm tired and hungry and I kinda blew off voting because most of the morons in this fucking state are opposed to gay marriage and there's no way that bill is gonna pass."

Bill doesn't pass, belief is reinforced.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:08:17 PM
I'm not saying that Tea Party morons don't exist, BTW. I'm saying that the widespread belief that they represent "most Americans" is completely false, and that the worst fear of "Them" (by which I mean the megacorporations that control our government and most of our information flow) is that somehow, we'll figure this out and stop responding to the "ZOMG ABORTION AND COMMUNISM" divisionary tactics and the general efforts to keep us divided and hopeless.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 08, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

This is, interestingly, not quite true, but it IS what the media machine wants you to think. So that we all sit tight in our little homes thinking that everyone else in America is a fucking idiot and there's no possibility of changing anything because the Majority Sides With Them, not us.

It's a huge manipulation game, along with Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! Gay marriage!

This is how it works: "I'm tired and hungry and I kinda blew off voting because most of the morons in this fucking state are opposed to gay marriage and there's no way that bill is gonna pass."

Bill doesn't pass, belief is reinforced.

i'm kind of confused by this response to Emo's statement...
the media wants us to think that the working class thinks they are middle class, but they don't?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 08:20:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 07:53:05 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

But they are, in the sense that they're in the same herd of prey.

Their actual mistake is thinking that - somehow - the doors to the upper class will one day be open to them.  So they don't want any legislation that will fuck it up for them later.  "Pre-rich" is the term used to describe these low-functioning retards, last I heard.

That's an almost understandable level of stupidity for a younger person, But I know elderly people with the same attitude. Some of them have adult children (and their young children) who receive government assistance who are just like them. They seem to patch the holes in their logic with the belief that they are trying, but most of the other people on food stamps, welfare, etc are just scamming the system. They're not even pre-rich. They-re pre lower middle class (pre-working class to you eurospags)

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

This is, interestingly, not quite true, but it IS what the media machine wants you to think. So that we all sit tight in our little homes thinking that everyone else in America is a fucking idiot and there's no possibility of changing anything because the Majority Sides With Them, not us.

It's a huge manipulation game, along with Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! Gay marriage!

This is how it works: "I'm tired and hungry and I kinda blew off voting because most of the morons in this fucking state are opposed to gay marriage and there's no way that bill is gonna pass."

Bill doesn't pass, belief is reinforced.

It was an overstatement to say the working class think they are middle class. That mostly only applies to the Fox News Watching segment of the working class.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Bruno on February 08, 2012, 08:28:58 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 08, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

This is, interestingly, not quite true, but it IS what the media machine wants you to think. So that we all sit tight in our little homes thinking that everyone else in America is a fucking idiot and there's no possibility of changing anything because the Majority Sides With Them, not us.

It's a huge manipulation game, along with Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! Gay marriage!

This is how it works: "I'm tired and hungry and I kinda blew off voting because most of the morons in this fucking state are opposed to gay marriage and there's no way that bill is gonna pass."

Bill doesn't pass, belief is reinforced.

i'm kind of confused by this response to Emo's statement...
the media wants us to think that the working class thinks they are middle class, but they don't?

I think she means that the media wants us to think that there are more stupid people than there really are, so we stop trying.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 08, 2012, 08:34:21 PM
oh yeah.
i can totally agree with that.
most people i meet are about average intelligence.
....
:p

(eta:and i don't consider myself to be significantly down the tail on the upper side, either. don't want to come across as haughty.)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:56:08 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 08:28:58 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 08, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

This is, interestingly, not quite true, but it IS what the media machine wants you to think. So that we all sit tight in our little homes thinking that everyone else in America is a fucking idiot and there's no possibility of changing anything because the Majority Sides With Them, not us.

It's a huge manipulation game, along with Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! Gay marriage!

This is how it works: "I'm tired and hungry and I kinda blew off voting because most of the morons in this fucking state are opposed to gay marriage and there's no way that bill is gonna pass."

Bill doesn't pass, belief is reinforced.

i'm kind of confused by this response to Emo's statement...
the media wants us to think that the working class thinks they are middle class, but they don't?

I think she means that the media wants us to think that there are more stupid people than there really are, so we stop trying.

Not just stupid, but that the vast majority of people are opposed to our interests.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 08, 2012, 11:40:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:56:08 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 08:28:58 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 08, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on February 08, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
The working class in America think they are middle class.

Which explains a lot about how the tea party happened.

This is, interestingly, not quite true, but it IS what the media machine wants you to think. So that we all sit tight in our little homes thinking that everyone else in America is a fucking idiot and there's no possibility of changing anything because the Majority Sides With Them, not us.

It's a huge manipulation game, along with Abortion! Abortion! Abortion! Gay marriage!

This is how it works: "I'm tired and hungry and I kinda blew off voting because most of the morons in this fucking state are opposed to gay marriage and there's no way that bill is gonna pass."

Bill doesn't pass, belief is reinforced.

i'm kind of confused by this response to Emo's statement...
the media wants us to think that the working class thinks they are middle class, but they don't?

I think she means that the media wants us to think that there are more stupid people than there really are, so we stop trying.

Not just stupid, but that the vast majority of people are opposed to our interests.

Since I am opposed to the vast majority of people, that idea has never slowed me down.

I am on none of these peoples' sides, because none of them are altogether on MY side.  Although I DO confess a soft spot for the Occupy crowd, silly as they may be...In fact, my current Short Duration Personal Savior is that old lady that got herself gassed by the Seattle Filth.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: maphdet on February 09, 2012, 01:24:50 AM
The old are brave.
Braver than any.

There should be a granny/grampy movement.
-just saying
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 09, 2012, 02:10:20 AM
i would certainly dispute that.
as a generalization, i would say that the old are more cognizant of their mortality, and therefore avoid risk.  the young feel bulletproof, and make reality youtube shows of themselves doing ridiculously dangerous acts.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on February 09, 2012, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: maphdet on February 09, 2012, 01:24:50 AM
The old are brave.
Braver than any.

There should be a granny/grampy movement.
-just saying


Oh there is, they're called The Raging Grannies. (http://raginggrannies.org/)

The Portland chapter (I think they go by "Seriously Pissed Off Grannies") vandalized an Army recruiting place in December. (http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2007/12/raging_grannies_on_trial.php)

I saw them holdin' it down at the Occupy the Courts protest a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on February 09, 2012, 08:12:55 AM
Quote from: Net on February 09, 2012, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: maphdet on February 09, 2012, 01:24:50 AM
The old are brave.
Braver than any.

There should be a granny/grampy movement.
-just saying


Oh there is, they're called The Raging Grannies. (http://raginggrannies.org/)

The Portland chapter (I think they go by "Seriously Pissed Off Grannies") vandalized an Army recruiting place in December. (http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2007/12/raging_grannies_on_trial.php)

I saw them holdin' it down at the Occupy the Courts protest a few weeks ago.

What a bunch of fucking assholes.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on February 09, 2012, 10:13:21 AM
Whoa, great coverage of the public meltdown of the RIAA head:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120208/01453517694/riaa-totally-out-touch-lashes-out-google-wikipedia-everyone-who-protested-sopapipa.shtml
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 09, 2012, 02:27:21 PM
Can we please poop on that mans doorstep or something?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Wolfgang Absolutus on February 09, 2012, 09:37:49 PM
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 09, 2012, 02:27:21 PM
Can we please poop on that mans doorstep or something?
Perhaps it would be more effective if we also left a turd right by the side of his bed so when he got up in the morning he would step right in it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 01:51:55 AM
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 09, 2012, 02:27:21 PM
Can we please poop on that mans doorstep or something?

I'd like to leave a copy of my poop on his doorstep.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 01:53:14 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 09, 2012, 02:10:20 AM
i would certainly dispute that.
as a generalization, i would say that the old are more cognizant of their mortality, and therefore avoid risk.  the young feel bulletproof, and make reality youtube shows of themselves doing ridiculously dangerous acts.

Yeah, so that lady never got fucking gassed, right?

It was all photoshop?  And they faked the subsequent medical records?

Generalizations are stereotypes.  Congratulations, you're a teabagger.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 01:54:02 AM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 09, 2012, 08:12:55 AM
Quote from: Net on February 09, 2012, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: maphdet on February 09, 2012, 01:24:50 AM
The old are brave.
Braver than any.

There should be a granny/grampy movement.
-just saying


Oh there is, they're called The Raging Grannies. (http://raginggrannies.org/)

The Portland chapter (I think they go by "Seriously Pissed Off Grannies") vandalized an Army recruiting place in December. (http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2007/12/raging_grannies_on_trial.php)

I saw them holdin' it down at the Occupy the Courts protest a few weeks ago.

What a bunch of fucking assholes.

?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on February 10, 2012, 02:04:23 AM
Vandalizing a recruiter station is a douchey thing to do IMO.

Retracted. I had a monkey moment and didn't read the full article.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 03:37:15 AM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 02:04:23 AM
Vandalizing a recruiter station is a douchey thing to do IMO.

Retracted. I had a monkey moment and didn't read the full article.

No problem.  I used to have knee-jerk reactions to that sort of shit myself.

It was only through painful experience and loads of loose morals that I finally cured myself.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 02:04:23 AM
Vandalizing a recruiter station is a douchey thing to do IMO.

Retracted. I had a monkey moment and didn't read the full article.

I'm still confused. i scanned through the article and it looks like they did 'vandalize' the recruiter station?  (albeit water soluble vandalism.)
what mitigates this if you find that behavior douchey?
:?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on February 10, 2012, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 02:04:23 AM
Vandalizing a recruiter station is a douchey thing to do IMO.

Retracted. I had a monkey moment and didn't read the full article.

I'm still confused. i scanned through the article and it looks like they did 'vandalize' the recruiter station?  (albeit water soluble vandalism.)
what mitigates this if you find that behavior douchey?
:?

Probably the fact that they all got off when their lawyers argued that it was purely 1st Amendment protected speech which did not damage the property.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:09:55 PM
Right.  anything more than a stern fingershaking would be overkill IMO since the remedy was simply to hose down the windows and sidewalk, but i would still think it goes under the heading of 'vandalism'.  If coyote said he thinks that is a douchey thing to do to a recruiter station, i was wondering whether, after reading the article, he decided that they were justified or whether what they did was not really vandalism, or whether he decided that it's not really douchey after all...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 03:13:56 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:09:55 PM
Right.  anything more than a stern fingershaking would be overkill IMO since the remedy was simply to hose down the windows and sidewalk, but i would still think it goes under the heading of 'vandalism'.

Then we'd better start arresting kids for sidewalk chalk.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 03:25:32 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 02:04:23 AM
Vandalizing a recruiter station is a douchey thing to do IMO.

Retracted. I had a monkey moment and didn't read the full article.

I'm still confused. i scanned through the article and it looks like they did 'vandalize' the recruiter station?  (albeit water soluble vandalism.)
what mitigates this if you find that behavior douchey?
:?

Put yourself in the judge's shoes.  These aren't bangers or taggers we're talking about; these are senior citizens.  It's not like they're doing this on a lark.

So maybe - just possibly - the judge acknowledged that in certain circumstances, free speech goes a little bit farther than bitching about the state of the nation over a cup of coffee.  The fact that they were careful to use water-soluble paint lends support to that.

After all, you DO have a constitutional right to peaceably assemble to petition the government for redress...And the military is undeniably the government, and since no property was damaged, and nobody was harmed, it was peaceful.

Because, you know, "petitioning for redress" is just fancy language for "losing your shit".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:37:43 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 09, 2012, 08:12:55 AM
Quote from: Net on February 09, 2012, 07:13:41 AM
Quote from: maphdet on February 09, 2012, 01:24:50 AM
The old are brave.
Braver than any.

There should be a granny/grampy movement.
-just saying


Oh there is, they're called The Raging Grannies. (http://raginggrannies.org/)

The Portland chapter (I think they go by "Seriously Pissed Off Grannies") vandalized an Army recruiting place in December. (http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2007/12/raging_grannies_on_trial.php)

I saw them holdin' it down at the Occupy the Courts protest a few weeks ago.

What a bunch of fucking assholes.

Yes, those old ladies are total dicks for not wanting any more kids to get sent off to fight and die for corporate interests.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:41:35 PM
the kids with sidewalk chalk should probably get the same stern fingershaking that i said might be appropriate if they were also using it to display their displeasure with somebody on said person's property without permission.  as i said, arrest is certainly overkill. 
i was just curious that
QuoteIf coyote said he thinks that is a douchey thing to do to a recruiter station, i was wondering whether, after reading the article, he decided that they were justified or whether what they did was not really vandalism, or whether he decided that it's not really douchey after all...

if i were in the judge's shoes, i would make the same call of letting them go.  possibly saying,'hey, i actually agree with you, but please try not to tread into the vandalism territory.'

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:41:35 PM
the kids with sidewalk chalk should probably get the same stern fingershaking that i said might be appropriate if they were also using it to display their displeasure with somebody on said person's property without permission.

So.

Public sidewalk.  Kids chalk it up to play hopscotch (do kids still play that?), or just draw on it.

They have no permission from the city.  Should they get the stern fingershaking?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:41:35 PM
the kids with sidewalk chalk should probably get the same stern fingershaking that i said might be appropriate if they were also using it to display their displeasure with somebody on said person's property without permission.  as i said, arrest is certainly overkill. 
i was just curious that
QuoteIf coyote said he thinks that is a douchey thing to do to a recruiter station, i was wondering whether, after reading the article, he decided that they were justified or whether what they did was not really vandalism, or whether he decided that it's not really douchey after all...

if i were in the judge's shoes, i would make the same call of letting them go.  possibly saying,'hey, i actually agree with you, but please try not to tread into the vandalism territory.'

So. Is leaving a nasty note for a shitty parking job under somebody's windshield wiper also "vandalism"?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 03:47:39 PM
And, again, you have a constitutional right to lose your shit, as long as it's peaceful.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
Also, let's just clarify for a moment the difference between "publicly owned property" and "privately owned property". Who, exactly, pays for the Army recruiting station?

Might want to think it ALL the way through before you start the contrarian position.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:51:10 PM
I taught my kids how to do hopscotch with the sidewalk chalk and they love it. (but the three year old still just kinda jumps around and declares victory).  they have since taught other neighborhood kids how it works and i've seen them doing it independently.
next up, mumbleypegs!  :evil:

but, no.  public sidewalk... hopscotch...kid's art.  of course not
on somebody's house or business stating that they are poopypants?  yeah.  someone should shake their fist at them and tell their parents.
in TFA they said that it was the sidewalk right out front of the station and on their windows.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
So. Is leaving a nasty note for a shitty parking job under somebody's windshield wiper also "vandalism"?
not according to the dictionary
Quotewillful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property

Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
Also, let's just clarify for a moment the difference between "publicly owned property" and "privately owned property". Who, exactly, pays for the Army recruiting station?
actually, i was looking for a clarification on Coyote's thinking, rather than start up a contrarian position.
i guess i'm a sucker for arguing though.  :)
so, you are certainly not saying that public property cannot be vandalized, right?

Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
Might want to think it ALL the way through before you start the contrarian position.
On a side note,  is it bad form to use a discussion as a sounding board in order to think through a position without actually believing that you are Right™ and they are Wrong™ without explicitly saying so?  i am guilty of doing that all the time (as i consider it folly to hold such belief) and perhaps i should amend this behavior, but it seems that it would get tiresome to actually preface each conversation as such.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2012, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
So. Is leaving a nasty note for a shitty parking job under somebody's windshield wiper also "vandalism"?
not according to the dictionary
Quotewillful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property

Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
Also, let's just clarify for a moment the difference between "publicly owned property" and "privately owned property". Who, exactly, pays for the Army recruiting station?

Might want to think it ALL the way through before you start the contrarian position.
actually, i was looking for a clarification on Coyote's thinking, rather than start up a contrarian position.
i guess i'm a sucker for arguing though.  :)
so, you are certainly not saying that public property cannot be vandalized, right?

Derp. Of course not. I am equating using washable paint to writing a note, because it A: contains a verbal message, and B: is removable with no damage or permanent defacement. Since the recruiting center is public property, the line between writing on the building and writing on the sidewalk is blurred, and it has already been determined by the courts that sidewalk chalk and washable paint on public sidewalks and roadways is not vandalism.

Coyote changed his mind after he read the article, and I think you're just arguing for shits and giggles, which can be fun but only when it's a subject worth expending mental energy on.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 04:30:38 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 04:14:41 PM
and it has already been determined by the courts that sidewalk chalk and washable paint on public sidewalks and roadways is not vandalism.
That is interesting... i wonder how far that could be pushed?

Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 04:14:41 PMCoyote changed his mind after he read the article, and I think you're just arguing for shits and giggles, which can be fun but only when it's a subject worth expending mental energy on.
again, my response to Coyote was not argument.  i was asking for clarification of his change of mind.
my responses to Roger implying that this was similar to kids chalking up a hopscotch on the sidwalk and your implication that it is was similar to leaving a note under a windshield wiper would be argument, i guess.  perhaps i should not have responded to those assertions?  (or respond to this post either?)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
On a side note,  is it bad form to use a discussion as a sounding board in order to think through a position without actually believing that you are Right™ and they are Wrong™ without explicitly saying so?

No, not at all.

But here, it is also not considered bad form to throw a wobbler for any reason or no reason at all.  Why disagree quietly when you can explode all over the upholstery and run off screeching at the heavens?

Nothing should be done in a calm manner1, because life isn't a calm event.



1  Unless, perversely enough, you are in the middle of an emergency.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 04:38:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 04:30:38 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 04:14:41 PM
and it has already been determined by the courts that sidewalk chalk and washable paint on public sidewalks and roadways is not vandalism.
That is interesting... i wonder how far that could be pushed?

Quote from: Nigel on February 10, 2012, 04:14:41 PMCoyote changed his mind after he read the article, and I think you're just arguing for shits and giggles, which can be fun but only when it's a subject worth expending mental energy on.
again, my response to Coyote was not argument.  i was asking for clarification of his change of mind.
my responses to Roger implying that this was similar to kids chalking up a hopscotch on the sidwalk and your implication that it is was similar to leaving a note under a windshield wiper would be argument, i guess.  perhaps i should not have responded to those assertions?  (or respond to this post either?)

Careful there, Sparky.  You're heading into Butthurt territory.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 04:46:34 PM
heh.  :)
no worries!
i love both of yous guys.  i'm willing to expend mental energy on stupid arguments, but it takes something special to get me butthurt.  (i have been butthurt by three people on this board though. that's because i respect all three, and a position that i held fast to and that i didn't feel should merit anger got significant venom which made me feel guilty and defensive at the same time.)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on February 10, 2012, 05:35:08 PM
Anon calls out the "Black Bloc" (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2012/02/anon-calls-out-black-bloc.html)

Anon is distancing itself from the anarchists who go around smashing windows and flipping cars. The narrator in this video says that the violent black bloc is making things worse. They do not effectively harm the companies they target, and they draw fire onto the Occupy protesters. In contrast, the peaceful occupations and anon's DDOS attacks are actually causing damage to those companies.

And this is interesting: Anon calls the black bloc cowards for hiding behind the Occupy protesters and pretending that they're with Anonymous. The video urges you to un-mask people promoting violent protest and possible agent provocateurs.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 05:49:17 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 10, 2012, 05:35:08 PM
Anon calls out the "Black Bloc" (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2012/02/anon-calls-out-black-bloc.html)

Anon is distancing itself from the anarchists who go around smashing windows and flipping cars. The narrator in this video says that the violent black bloc is making things worse. They do not effectively harm the companies they target, and they draw fire onto the Occupy protesters. In contrast, the peaceful occupations and anon's DDOS attacks are actually causing damage to those companies.

And this is interesting: Anon calls the black bloc cowards for hiding behind the Occupy protesters and pretending that they're with Anonymous. The video urges you to un-mask people promoting violent protest and possible agent provocateurs.

This.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 10, 2012, 06:09:50 PM
It is also worth pointing out many, many Black Bloc protestors are police agent provocateurs.

Almost every protest I can remember in the past 10 years, where things turned violent not due to outright police brutality, it was becaue a) some Black Bloc idiots started it, and b) they were egged on by police informants and undercover officers within their ranks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on February 10, 2012, 06:42:51 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 02:04:23 AM
Vandalizing a recruiter station is a douchey thing to do IMO.

Retracted. I had a monkey moment and didn't read the full article.

I'm still confused. i scanned through the article and it looks like they did 'vandalize' the recruiter station?  (albeit water soluble vandalism.)
what mitigates this if you find that behavior douchey?
:?

Because it was water soluble. The primary reason I thought it was douchey is because I have several friends who are recruiters, and I know none of them, and most recruiters, didn't volunteer for THAT job. It is also one of the most stressful non-combat positions in the Army, up there with command and drill sergeant.

My initial reaction was, "WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FUCKING WITH MY PEOPLE YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES!!!"
But since it was water soluble, getting bent out of the shape over water based paint on a fucking building is like getting bent out of shape for sidewalk chalk.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 06:46:38 PM
got it.
:wink:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2012, 07:47:32 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on February 10, 2012, 04:46:34 PM
heh.  :)
no worries!
i love both of yous guys.  i'm willing to expend mental energy on stupid arguments,

I'm not, and it annoys me when I realize I'm doing it. Of course, everybody's idea of a "stupid argument" is different; a lot of things are important to me that aren't important to other people, and vise versa.

But I loves you back. Even when I'm annoyed.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 10, 2012, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 10, 2012, 05:35:08 PM
Anon calls out the "Black Bloc" (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2012/02/anon-calls-out-black-bloc.html)

Anon is distancing itself from the anarchists who go around smashing windows and flipping cars. The narrator in this video says that the violent black bloc is making things worse. They do not effectively harm the companies they target, and they draw fire onto the Occupy protesters. In contrast, the peaceful occupations and anon's DDOS attacks are actually causing damage to those companies.

And this is interesting: Anon calls the black bloc cowards for hiding behind the Occupy protesters and pretending that they're with Anonymous. The video urges you to un-mask people promoting violent protest and possible agent provocateurs.

This is rad.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 08:19:18 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 06:42:51 PM
My initial reaction was, "WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FUCKING WITH MY PEOPLE YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES!!!"
But since it was water soluble, getting bent out of the shape over water based paint on a fucking building is like getting bent out of shape for sidewalk chalk.

They didn't paint any soldiers.

Soldiers may be your people; the army is not.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on February 10, 2012, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2012, 08:19:18 PM
Quote from: Pope Coyote of the Wolffnords on February 10, 2012, 06:42:51 PM
My initial reaction was, "WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FUCKING WITH MY PEOPLE YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES!!!"
But since it was water soluble, getting bent out of the shape over water based paint on a fucking building is like getting bent out of shape for sidewalk chalk.

They didn't paint any soldiers.

Soldiers may be your people; the army is not.

Also, that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on February 11, 2012, 08:10:45 PM
BBC Article on Alan Moore and Anonymous' usage of the Guy Fawkes imagery:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16968689

It's a lot of blah, but I wanna share anyway.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on February 12, 2012, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2012, 06:09:50 PM
It is also worth pointing out many, many Black Bloc protestors are police agent provocateurs.


Dis tru at least since G8...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on February 13, 2012, 07:46:22 PM
Ioz has a reply to the anti-black-bloc trend...


http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2012/02/keep-off-grass.html


QuoteI have noticed a distinctive tut-tutting beat emanating from the lofty lefty backline--beware the black bloc, whatever that is.  The formulation is telling:

QuoteBy renouncing violence against persons or property, Occupy would enhance its appeal to the disabled and people of color, who have good reason to stay away from volatile confrontations. By isolating those who seize the spotlight by smashing things, it can prevent them from trampling the ethos of a brilliantly leaderless movement.

Did you notice that neat pirouette from persons to property, from volatile confrontations (oh my!) to the smashing of mere things.  Lemme axe you: how does a movement with an ethos of occupation not enact violence against property?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 13, 2012, 07:47:55 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 13, 2012, 07:46:22 PM
Ioz has a reply to the anti-black-bloc trend...


http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2012/02/keep-off-grass.html


QuoteI have noticed a distinctive tut-tutting beat emanating from the lofty lefty backline--beware the black bloc, whatever that is.  The formulation is telling:

QuoteBy renouncing violence against persons or property, Occupy would enhance its appeal to the disabled and people of color, who have good reason to stay away from volatile confrontations. By isolating those who seize the spotlight by smashing things, it can prevent them from trampling the ethos of a brilliantly leaderless movement.

Did you notice that neat pirouette from persons to property, from volatile confrontations (oh my!) to the smashing of mere things.  Lemme axe you: how does a movement with an ethos of occupation not enact violence against property?

Violence is the tool of the CoN.  If you resort to violence, you're playing on THEIR terms, on THEIR turf.  You are as likely to win at that, as you are at a game of Three Card Monty.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 13, 2012, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 13, 2012, 07:47:55 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 13, 2012, 07:46:22 PM
Ioz has a reply to the anti-black-bloc trend...


http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2012/02/keep-off-grass.html


QuoteI have noticed a distinctive tut-tutting beat emanating from the lofty lefty backline--beware the black bloc, whatever that is.  The formulation is telling:

QuoteBy renouncing violence against persons or property, Occupy would enhance its appeal to the disabled and people of color, who have good reason to stay away from volatile confrontations. By isolating those who seize the spotlight by smashing things, it can prevent them from trampling the ethos of a brilliantly leaderless movement.

Did you notice that neat pirouette from persons to property, from volatile confrontations (oh my!) to the smashing of mere things.  Lemme axe you: how does a movement with an ethos of occupation not enact violence against property?

Violence is the tool of the CoN.  If you resort to violence, you're playing on THEIR terms, on THEIR turf.  You are as likely to win at that, as you are at a game of Three Card Monty.

THIS.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cramulus on February 13, 2012, 08:03:08 PM
I can dig it, violence is definitely the wrong way to incentivize positive change. I can't help but taste the subtle tang of irony though... because the ultimate aims of occupy are to do violence to a system, to smash a hierarchy, to overthrow archons, to strain and twist the existing relationships of power... Just, you know, conceptually violent, not physically violent.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Chairman Risus on February 13, 2012, 11:18:33 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 13, 2012, 08:03:08 PM
I can dig it, violence is definitely the wrong way to incentivize positive change. I can't help but taste the subtle tang of irony though... because the ultimate aims of occupy are to do violence to a system, to smash a hierarchy, to overthrow archons, to strain and twist the existing relationships of power... Just, you know, conceptually violent, not physically violent.

So would this be right? The aim is to disrupt the game, not be a disruption within it. Something like streakers, as opposed to someone playing who could be penalized. (Feel free to improve on the metaphor.)
I'm strained to think of some thing that was inherently important to such a system that could be destroyed that would have a serious effect of said system.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 13, 2012, 11:51:57 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 13, 2012, 08:03:08 PM
incentivize positive change.


ATTN, BOSS:

STOP POSSESSING CRAM.

THANKS.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on February 16, 2012, 09:54:06 PM
Thoughts on occupation as a tactic: it started out great because it's confusing and difficult to counter in the way the best neosituationist fucking-with-the-squares tactics initially were (putting flowers in guns, etc). It was clearly intended to say something, but at the same time it wasn't something that justified violent closures. (Some of the current crop of neosituationist protest mechanisms fail to grasp that not getting arrested -- or at least making it so that if you are arrested very few people will think it's justified -- is a big part of the draw (http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/glitter-bomb)) However, I think it's ceased to be useful as a tactic on account of being internalized and categorized (just like drum circles did).

On the other hand, the tent city in New Haven just celebrated its fourth month of existence. It's been below freezing all day, and there's been some snowfall in the past few months. It looks like they aren't going anywhere, but they haven't really been protesting either: I think they're just turning into an intentional community sitting there on the green.

Tangentially related to the talk of 'working class versus middle class' in american political speech (http://firstchurchofspacejesus.blogspot.com/2012/02/two-unexpected-varieties-of-synthesis.html)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 26, 2012, 01:16:27 PM
Agreed.  It's a good solid opening tactic, but occupation is not a strategy (as the Bush administration found out to their dismay, pwn3d!121! etc).

What is a strategy?  I'm not sure.  Most of the tactics I find interesting are undoubtedly within a very gray area when it comes to legality, even if ethically they're pretty sound.  I know I bang on about this all the time, but systems disruption is the way to go.  The "1%" used the Occupy protests as a way to show their indifference - recall the champagne swilling finance workers mocking the Chicago protests from their office windows.  So something has to be done which actually affects them, personally, or at least on an institutional leve.

Which is why I think "occupying" vital economic centres, like airports or major financial institutions and making it impossible to actually do anything there is the next step.  Or, alternatively, occupying the offices of politicians either associated with such groups, or those who keep pledging to work against them, only to cry at the first show of resistance and back down.  Both would be ideal.

I mean, it's either that, or it's Baader-Meinhof time.  Which is somewhat like Hammer time, only with machine guns and semtex.  Which would be bad.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 26, 2012, 01:24:25 PM
That said, Chinese citizens are now Occuping Obama (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17167770).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 26, 2012, 06:36:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 26, 2012, 01:24:25 PM
That said, Chinese citizens are now Occuping Obama (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17167770).

That's awesome!

I want to go to China so bad.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on February 29, 2012, 08:36:38 PM
DEAR OCCUPY MOVEMENT: Your New Message Sucks (http://www.businessinsider.com/occupy-shut-down-corporations-2012-2#ixzz1nnyCpcFM)

QuoteDubbed the "Shut Down the Corporations" rally, protesters will chant, shout and march in unison in more than 70 cities to bring attention to corporate power and greed. The so-called "National Day of Action" zeroes in on corporations that are members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC).

I <3 U ALEC.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 01, 2012, 01:44:54 AM
Oh, Business Insider sides with ALEC.

SURPRISE!  :lol:

Sounds like they might be feeling a little threatened by having a light shone down their nasty little hole.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 01, 2012, 01:46:18 AM
Astroturfers all over the comments, too.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Hobohemian on March 14, 2012, 10:39:10 PM
Hi everybody -- I just joined this forum; my wife and I are dischordians (I'm a Pope; she was a Pope until she excommunicated herself) and we have been involved with Occupy Oakland since basically day one.  Only recently, due to some magnification of traditional religious language within our movement here, have I begun to think that some form of dischordianism and/or a somewhat more oganized framework for culture jamming might be beneficial or even crucial in our ongoing efforts to fuck up the system at Occupy Oakland.  I don't really know what is happening at all these other "occupy" groups, but I can tell you that in Oakland we have not backed down and we have not co-operated with the city or the paramilitary police in the OPD.  I want to start a group to spread Operation Mindfuck at Occupy Oakland, and I'm soliciting advice and/or warnings from the group.  Thanks in advance,
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on March 14, 2012, 10:51:39 PM
dischordians? are you somekind of muscians?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on March 15, 2012, 01:54:24 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 14, 2012, 10:39:10 PM
Hi everybody -- I just joined this forum; my wife and I are dischordians (I'm a Pope; she was a Pope until she excommunicated herself) and we have been involved with Occupy Oakland since basically day one.  Only recently, due to some magnification of traditional religious language within our movement here, have I begun to think that some form of dischordianism and/or a somewhat more oganized framework for culture jamming might be beneficial or even crucial in our ongoing efforts to fuck up the system at Occupy Oakland.  I don't really know what is happening at all these other "occupy" groups, but I can tell you that in Oakland we have not backed down and we have not co-operated with the city or the paramilitary police in the OPD.  I want to start a group to spread Operation Mindfuck at Occupy Oakland, and I'm soliciting advice and/or warnings from the group.  Thanks in advance,

1. Wall o' text is hard to read.
2. Are you european?  I don't think I've ever seen discord spelled with an "h".
3. Why would you want to fuck with the Occupiers?  They've got enough to deal with without assholes like you causing more po-po sticks raining down on their heads.
4. (http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4806025946138665&id=c338900b64a7d1bb34ab7845aacd876a&index=newexp&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.edupic.net%2fImages%2fFish%2fThumbs%2fdead_fish0837_sm.JPG)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 15, 2012, 02:52:37 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on March 15, 2012, 01:54:24 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 14, 2012, 10:39:10 PM
Hi everybody -- I just joined this forum; my wife and I are dischordians (I'm a Pope; she was a Pope until she excommunicated herself) and we have been involved with Occupy Oakland since basically day one.  Only recently, due to some magnification of traditional religious language within our movement here, have I begun to think that some form of dischordianism and/or a somewhat more oganized framework for culture jamming might be beneficial or even crucial in our ongoing efforts to fuck up the system at Occupy Oakland.  I don't really know what is happening at all these other "occupy" groups, but I can tell you that in Oakland we have not backed down and we have not co-operated with the city or the paramilitary police in the OPD.  I want to start a group to spread Operation Mindfuck at Occupy Oakland, and I'm soliciting advice and/or warnings from the group.  Thanks in advance,

1. Wall o' text is hard to read.
2. Are you european?  I don't think I've ever seen discord spelled with an "h".
3. Why would you want to fuck with the Occupiers?  They've got enough to deal with without assholes like you causing more po-po sticks raining down on their heads.
4. (http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4806025946138665&id=c338900b64a7d1bb34ab7845aacd876a&index=newexp&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.edupic.net%2fImages%2fFish%2fThumbs%2fdead_fish0837_sm.JPG)

Agree, and also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dischord
Eh?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on March 15, 2012, 03:10:47 AM
Dude, we're a music label?? Where's all our money?! :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 15, 2012, 03:33:31 AM
Quote...most notable for having maintained a strict do-it-yourself ethic, producing all of its albums by itself and selling them at discount prices without the help of major distributors

Dude...we don't have any major distributors.
We should sell out for sure.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on March 15, 2012, 09:53:58 AM
I do like the nytimes article mirroring occupy criminal court re: d.o.s. Attack on trial capacity vs. De facto plea bargaining (Sunday times?)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
OK, so hmmm.... not so much the type of response I was hoping for.  Not that I expect discordians (sic?) to be serious all the time.  But I wasn't expecting to be called an asshole because I want to use the Occupy movement as a way of spreading culture jamming.  And making fun of my spelling is kind of ridiculous.  Just the type of thing I'd expect from any random forum of internet geeks, whereas I was kinda hoping that this group would be different.  Oh well. 

I actually was a huge Fugazi fan when I was a kid, around the same time I read Illuminatus and got into that stuff.  So that's probably why I spell it "dischordian."  I think it's kind of funny that a bunch of people devoted to the sacred chao would get their panties in a bunch over how somebody spells it.  From now on maybe I should just spell it randomly differently every time just to annoy you.  And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

I'm particularly annoyed at the poster who tried to tell me that I was going to bring violence from the police.  Fuck you.  No really.  Maybe you don't know the difference between Occupy Oakland and any other random liberal Occupy group who sit around mentally masturbating and carrying signs all day.  Well, instead of taking the chance to learn, you lectured at me like I'm a child. 

Is that how it is here?  Every new poster is just an excuse for the "regulars" to have a few laughs?  I hate that shit.  I'm not going to waste my time here if this is just a circle jerk for malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks.           

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 16, 2012, 11:15:33 PM
Well, it seems you've already made your mind up about this place (and based on so few interactions!) so feel free to hop along.

We've already fufilled our quota of butthurt noobs with a chip on their shoulder for this month, thanks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on March 17, 2012, 01:35:18 AM
Wow, already got some  :butthurt:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on March 17, 2012, 03:49:19 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
OK, so hmmm.... not so much the type of response I was hoping for.  Not that I expect discordians (sic?) to be serious all the time.  But I wasn't expecting to be called an asshole because I want to use the Occupy movement as a way of spreading culture jamming.  And making fun of my spelling is kind of ridiculous.  Just the type of thing I'd expect from any random forum of internet geeks, whereas I was kinda hoping that this group would be different.  Oh well. 

I actually was a huge Fugazi fan when I was a kid, around the same time I read Illuminatus and got into that stuff.  So that's probably why I spell it "dischordian."  I think it's kind of funny that a bunch of people devoted to the sacred chao would get their panties in a bunch over how somebody spells it.  From now on maybe I should just spell it randomly differently every time just to annoy you.  And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

I'm particularly annoyed at the poster who tried to tell me that I was going to bring violence from the police.  Fuck you.  No really.  Maybe you don't know the difference between Occupy Oakland and any other random liberal Occupy group who sit around mentally masturbating and carrying signs all day.  Well, instead of taking the chance to learn, you lectured at me like I'm a child. 

Is that how it is here?  Every new poster is just an excuse for the "regulars" to have a few laughs?  I hate that shit.  I'm not going to waste my time here if this is just a circle jerk for malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks.           

Wow.  :lulz:  From 0 to "YOU AREN'T REALLY DISCORDIANS!" in two posts.  Is that a record?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on March 17, 2012, 07:41:50 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 14, 2012, 10:39:10 PM
I don't really know what is happening at all these other "occupy" groups, but I can tell you that in Oakland we have not backed down and we have not co-operated with the city or the paramilitary police in the OPD.

You don't really know, but you're willing to call them mental masturbators who carry signs all day and even put quotes around the word Occupy.

:troll:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on March 17, 2012, 09:39:07 AM
Really?  Occupy as a d.d.o.s.a on the political economy of incarceration does not ring any fucking bells? :argh!:
[added]
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uuesVbVnqJo/TztIOyBMDwI/AAAAAAAAFng/1g4qe7L2hjM/s1600/Somebody%2BThat%2BI%2BUsed%2BTo%2BKnow.jpg)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 17, 2012, 04:50:37 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 14, 2012, 10:39:10 PMI'm soliciting advice and/or warnings from the group.

Sounds like you weren't really soliciting advice or warnings, but simply looking for applause.

Here ya go:
:retard:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on March 17, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
OK, so hmmm.... not so much the type of response I was hoping for.  Not that I expect discordians (sic?) to be serious all the time.  But I wasn't expecting to be called an asshole because I want to use the Occupy movement as a way of spreading culture jamming.  And making fun of my spelling is kind of ridiculous.  Just the type of thing I'd expect from any random forum of internet geeks, whereas I was kinda hoping that this group would be different.  Oh well. 

I actually was a huge Fugazi fan when I was a kid, around the same time I read Illuminatus and got into that stuff.  So that's probably why I spell it "dischordian."  I think it's kind of funny that a bunch of people devoted to the sacred chao would get their panties in a bunch over how somebody spells it.  From now on maybe I should just spell it randomly differently every time just to annoy you.  And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

I'm particularly annoyed at the poster who tried to tell me that I was going to bring violence from the police.  Fuck you.  No really.  Maybe you don't know the difference between Occupy Oakland and any other random liberal Occupy group who sit around mentally masturbating and carrying signs all day.  Well, instead of taking the chance to learn, you lectured at me like I'm a child. 

Is that how it is here?  Every new poster is just an excuse for the "regulars" to have a few laughs?  I hate that shit.  I'm not going to waste my time here if this is just a circle jerk for malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks.           
Wow, I think this post captured every single butthurt noob complaint about PD in one magnificent pile. I am a particular fan of the last line about "malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks". Man, that was funny the first 20 times I heard it, and I'll be jiggered if it ain't funny this time.  :lulz:

In all seriousness, however, if you decide to spread culture jamming via Occupy, there is a very real chance that something involved in O:MF which is labelled as vandalism gets thrown back to Occupy, which, in turn, causes police intervention to a greater degree. <= This is advice/warning.

To be fair, why would you want to fuck with the Occupy people is a valid question, considering a "magnification in traditional religious language" is incredibly vague, and honestly, not worth inciting violence over. So, following this train of thought... you might need to be lectured like a twelve year old.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on March 17, 2012, 09:12:59 PM
:lulz: Some truely impressive butthurt right thar. Also, PHobohemia, I'd listen to Phoxxy. She's right.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Da6s on March 18, 2012, 01:42:15 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on March 17, 2012, 03:49:19 AM


Wow.  :lulz:  From 0 to "YOU AREN'T REALLY DISCORDIANS!" in two posts.  Is that a record?


It's happened in introduction posts before. Really reals and what not.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on March 18, 2012, 11:53:54 PM
Based on the first 3 people to respond no less.





Peoples really need to keep the Law of Fives in mind. For realness.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on March 19, 2012, 02:02:04 AM
It boggles my mind that because we were :meh: to his culture jamming idea of Occupiers, we are serious all the time.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Junkenstein on March 19, 2012, 02:22:31 AM
First impressions are EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on March 19, 2012, 09:09:50 PM
Anybody pay attention to the six month anniversary rally in Zucotti park? It got pretty ugly.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 09:22:29 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
OK, so hmmm.... not so much the type of response I was hoping for.  Not that I expect discordians (sic?) to be serious all the time.  But I wasn't expecting to be called an asshole because I want to use the Occupy movement as a way of spreading culture jamming.  And making fun of my spelling is kind of ridiculous.  Just the type of thing I'd expect from any random forum of internet geeks, whereas I was kinda hoping that this group would be different.  Oh well. 

I actually was a huge Fugazi fan when I was a kid, around the same time I read Illuminatus and got into that stuff.  So that's probably why I spell it "dischordian."  I think it's kind of funny that a bunch of people devoted to the sacred chao would get their panties in a bunch over how somebody spells it.  From now on maybe I should just spell it randomly differently every time just to annoy you.  And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

I'm particularly annoyed at the poster who tried to tell me that I was going to bring violence from the police.  Fuck you.  No really.  Maybe you don't know the difference between Occupy Oakland and any other random liberal Occupy group who sit around mentally masturbating and carrying signs all day.  Well, instead of taking the chance to learn, you lectured at me like I'm a child. 

Is that how it is here?  Every new poster is just an excuse for the "regulars" to have a few laughs?  I hate that shit.  I'm not going to waste my time here if this is just a circle jerk for malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks.           

We're actually a hive mind.  We all believe exactly the same thing, no matter what.

In other words, fuck you and your broad brush.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 09:25:12 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

   

And maybe even the REALLY REAL DISCORDIANS FOR REALNESS.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 09:28:30 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:09:50 PM
Anybody pay attention to the six month anniversary rally in Zucotti park? It got pretty ugly.

Not really.  What happened?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 09:35:23 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
discordians (sic?)

This just keeps getting better.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on March 19, 2012, 09:42:16 PM
NYPD was nasty. A medic's head was slammed into reinforced glass hard enough it cracked the glass (https://twitter.com/#!/RDevro/status/181248759529869312) and he was also punched in the face afterward, several other protestors got put in the hospital (including one woman who started seizing while cuffed, whose ribs they also broke), and there were evidently a number of others who were otherwise bleeding and injured being carted off.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 19, 2012, 09:45:18 PM
Yeah, it was pretty brutal.

Thing is, this is going to go bad for the NYPD, in the long-run.  Anarchist groups have been networking with the Greek anti-austerity protestors, and those guys know how to get a party started.  They've been running mini-seminars on how to set up barricades, stall a police charge, disperse into a crowd and so on, and then getting practical experience of it.

Should the Occupy movement feel it needs to defend itself, it'll be looking to these people in lessons as to how.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 09:49:46 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:42:16 PM
NYPD was nasty. A medic's head was slammed into reinforced glass hard enough it cracked the glass (https://twitter.com/#!/RDevro/status/181248759529869312) and he was also punched in the face afterward, several other protestors got put in the hospital (including one woman who started seizing while cuffed, whose ribs they also broke), and there were evidently a number of others who were otherwise bleeding and injured being carted off.

Jesus.  NYC has changed, and not for the better.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)

Can't see that here.  I'll check it at home.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on March 17, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
OK, so hmmm.... not so much the type of response I was hoping for.  Not that I expect discordians (sic?) to be serious all the time.  But I wasn't expecting to be called an asshole because I want to use the Occupy movement as a way of spreading culture jamming.  And making fun of my spelling is kind of ridiculous.  Just the type of thing I'd expect from any random forum of internet geeks, whereas I was kinda hoping that this group would be different.  Oh well. 

I actually was a huge Fugazi fan when I was a kid, around the same time I read Illuminatus and got into that stuff.  So that's probably why I spell it "dischordian."  I think it's kind of funny that a bunch of people devoted to the sacred chao would get their panties in a bunch over how somebody spells it.  From now on maybe I should just spell it randomly differently every time just to annoy you.  And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

I'm particularly annoyed at the poster who tried to tell me that I was going to bring violence from the police.  Fuck you.  No really.  Maybe you don't know the difference between Occupy Oakland and any other random liberal Occupy group who sit around mentally masturbating and carrying signs all day.  Well, instead of taking the chance to learn, you lectured at me like I'm a child. 

Is that how it is here?  Every new poster is just an excuse for the "regulars" to have a few laughs?  I hate that shit.  I'm not going to waste my time here if this is just a circle jerk for malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks.           
Wow, I think this post captured every single butthurt noob complaint about PD in one magnificent pile. I am a particular fan of the last line about "malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks". Man, that was funny the first 20 times I heard it, and I'll be jiggered if it ain't funny this time.  :lulz:

In all seriousness, however, if you decide to spread culture jamming via Occupy, there is a very real chance that something involved in O:MF which is labelled as vandalism gets thrown back to Occupy, which, in turn, causes police intervention to a greater degree. <= This is advice/warning.

To be fair, why would you want to fuck with the Occupy people is a valid question, considering a "magnification in traditional religious language" is incredibly vague, and honestly, not worth inciting violence over. So, following this train of thought... you might need to be lectured like a twelve year old.

Just sayin'.

OK, thank you for a genuine response finally.  No, I do not want to fuck with the Occupy people.  I don't know how anybody can think that.  I guess it's just that I look on Occupy as a physical manifestation of KLF.  I don't see it as something external to Occupy.  There has already been a lot of culture jamming going on.  It should get more intense just like everything else should get more intense.  The media is always going to label something as vandalism, and they push a dialectic where the vandalism = violence and that somehow justifies a violent response.  That's actually what we have already experienced at Oakland, not something that I would try to bring here.  What I would like is that if the "vandalism" was more along the lines of creative culture-jam ideas and less of the random stuff, I think it would actually make our case against the police a lot stronger in the long run as well as serve more usefully to spread our counter-propaganda. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:24:03 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:09:50 PM
Anybody pay attention to the six month anniversary rally in Zucotti park? It got pretty ugly.

We did 2 solidarity marches in Oakland.  On Sunday we surprised the OPD and managed to get right next to their main police station, so we had a dance party there until they showed up in their cute riot suits. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on March 17, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM
OK, so hmmm.... not so much the type of response I was hoping for.  Not that I expect discordians (sic?) to be serious all the time.  But I wasn't expecting to be called an asshole because I want to use the Occupy movement as a way of spreading culture jamming.  And making fun of my spelling is kind of ridiculous.  Just the type of thing I'd expect from any random forum of internet geeks, whereas I was kinda hoping that this group would be different.  Oh well. 

I actually was a huge Fugazi fan when I was a kid, around the same time I read Illuminatus and got into that stuff.  So that's probably why I spell it "dischordian."  I think it's kind of funny that a bunch of people devoted to the sacred chao would get their panties in a bunch over how somebody spells it.  From now on maybe I should just spell it randomly differently every time just to annoy you.  And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

I'm particularly annoyed at the poster who tried to tell me that I was going to bring violence from the police.  Fuck you.  No really.  Maybe you don't know the difference between Occupy Oakland and any other random liberal Occupy group who sit around mentally masturbating and carrying signs all day.  Well, instead of taking the chance to learn, you lectured at me like I'm a child. 

Is that how it is here?  Every new poster is just an excuse for the "regulars" to have a few laughs?  I hate that shit.  I'm not going to waste my time here if this is just a circle jerk for malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks.           
Wow, I think this post captured every single butthurt noob complaint about PD in one magnificent pile. I am a particular fan of the last line about "malcontented pseudo-intellectual geeks". Man, that was funny the first 20 times I heard it, and I'll be jiggered if it ain't funny this time.  :lulz:

In all seriousness, however, if you decide to spread culture jamming via Occupy, there is a very real chance that something involved in O:MF which is labelled as vandalism gets thrown back to Occupy, which, in turn, causes police intervention to a greater degree. <= This is advice/warning.

To be fair, why would you want to fuck with the Occupy people is a valid question, considering a "magnification in traditional religious language" is incredibly vague, and honestly, not worth inciting violence over. So, following this train of thought... you might need to be lectured like a twelve year old.

Just sayin'.

OK, thank you for a genuine response finally.  No, I do not want to fuck with the Occupy people.  I don't know how anybody can think that.  I guess it's just that I look on Occupy as a physical manifestation of KLF.  I don't see it as something external to Occupy.  There has already been a lot of culture jamming going on.  It should get more intense just like everything else should get more intense.  The media is always going to label something as vandalism, and they push a dialectic where the vandalism = violence and that somehow justifies a violent response.  That's actually what we have already experienced at Oakland, not something that I would try to bring here.  What I would like is that if the "vandalism" was more along the lines of creative culture-jam ideas and less of the random stuff, I think it would actually make our case against the police a lot stronger in the long run as well as serve more usefully to spread our counter-propaganda.

See, I may not be a "True Dischordian", so my opinion may not carry much weight, but it seems to me that I'm not - as a fake discordian - inclined to side with either the police OR Occupy.

Though I gotta say, their "general assemblies" have been nothing short of hilarious.  It's primate politics at its finest.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:30:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)

And yet all the real, good, hard-working 'mericans still love them some cops.
Blows my mind.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:32:00 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:30:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)

And yet all the real, good, hard-working 'mericans still love them some cops.
Blows my mind.

I don't know anyone that does.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:35:15 PM
I mean, come on Oysters...Everyone knows that all cops are psychotics, right?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:39:52 PM
That's incredibly suprising.

Maybe its the area I'm in. Not six months ago I sat through (part of) a prison guard bragging about how he beat on some inmate while everyone beamed in admiration. It was...uhm...distressing.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:35:15 PM
I mean, come on Oysters...Everyone knows that all cops are psychotics, right?

Of course. Coincidentally, all white people sell insurance, all nascar fans are rednecks, every christian is a hate-monger, and everyone who drinks occasionally wakes up chained to a beach sculpture in an adjoining state.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:40:58 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:39:52 PM
That's incredibly suprising.

Maybe its the area I'm in. Not six months ago I sat through (part of) a prison guard bragging about how he beat on some inmate while everyone beamed in admiration. It was...uhm...distressing.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:35:15 PM
I mean, come on Oysters...Everyone knows that all cops are psychotics, right?

Of course. Coincidentally, all white people sell insurance, all nascar fans are rednecks, every christian is a hate-monger, and everyone who drinks occasionally wakes up chained to a beach sculpture in an adjoining state.

Wait.  You were just making a REALLY broad-brush statement about police, and now you have a problem with my statement?

:?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:43:22 PM
I don't have a problem with your statement. I just recognized the joke and went along with it.

My problem isn't with the police as much as it is
1. How a lot of people (that I've met) think they're beyond fault and
2. How, from the instances I've been privy to, their misteps, when punished, rarely fit the severity of the action.

But obviously there is an exception to every case.


edit: Also, I'm sort of an irrational douchebag when it comes to people who are allowed to tell me what to do. It's a problem.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:44:34 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:43:22 PM
I don't have a problem with your statement. I just recognized the joke and went along with it.

My problem isn't with the police as much as it is
1. How a lot of people (that I've met) think they're beyond fault and
2. How, from the instances I've been privy to, their misteps, when punished, rarely fit the severity of the action.

But obviously there is an exception to every case.

Well, sure.  There's GOT to be a cop out there SOMEWHERE who doesn't stomp on kittens while he punches babies.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:45:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:44:34 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:43:22 PM
I don't have a problem with your statement. I just recognized the joke and went along with it.

My problem isn't with the police as much as it is
1. How a lot of people (that I've met) think they're beyond fault and
2. How, from the instances I've been privy to, their misteps, when punished, rarely fit the severity of the action.

But obviously there is an exception to every case.

Well, sure.  There's GOT to be a cop out there SOMEWHERE who doesn't stomp on kittens while he punches babies.

:lulz:
Yeah...I sort of sound like that. See the edit above. I think I posted it just as you posted that.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:47:58 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:43:22 PM

edit: Also, I'm sort of an irrational douchebag when it comes to people who are allowed to tell me what to do. It's a problem.

Oh, me too.  Like there was this time when the town comptroller told me that Maria and I had to let his cousin go from a DUI charge.  I wasn't real fond of that, so we slipped him a mickey the next week and left him naked outside of town at 3AM.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:51:01 PM
.......

...and?!


For the love of God, man! The suspense is killing me!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:52:08 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:51:01 PM
.......

...and?!


For the love of God, man! The suspense is killing me!

And we got fired.   :lulz:

By the following Wednesday, we were working two towns over.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Salty on March 21, 2012, 12:49:52 AM
Yes, thank you for being a legitimate human being, Phoxxy.

Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
1.
And to delight any true dischordians who might be watching the carnage.

2.
What I would like is that if the "vandalism" was more along the lines of creative culture-jam ideas and less of the random stuff, I think it would actually make our case against the police a lot stronger in the long run as well as serve more usefully to spread our counter-propaganda.

1. Oh they are out there. Around here we call them Utopian Discordians, but oddly enough they do not delight in much.
2. You know what would make that real effective is slapping one of these ™ on the counter-propaganda (which is in NO WAY just another kind of propaganda but will react against the BAD propaganda in such a way that they both simply vanish and everyone watches TV), so you make sure The Man™ doesn't get ahold of them for nefarious purposes.

AM I DOING IT RIGHT YET HUH AM I HUH HUH HUH?

ETA: You know, I never mention this sort of thing, but I want to make sure your experience lines up with your expectations:
YOU'RE NOT USING A FUCKING TYPEWRITER.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 21, 2012, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:30:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)

And yet all the real, good, hard-working 'mericans still love them some cops.
Blows my mind.

Hate to tell you, but that's mainly a media misrepresentation of what Joe America approves of. Most Americans do not like cops. At all.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 21, 2012, 05:38:37 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 21, 2012, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:30:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)

And yet all the real, good, hard-working 'mericans still love them some cops.
Blows my mind.

Hate to tell you, but that's mainly a media misrepresentation of what Joe America approves of. Most Americans do not like cops. At all.

I'm making that statement based more off of people I live around than anything else. I can accept that it's probably a fluke though, since you and Dok both seem to disagree.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 21, 2012, 05:49:21 AM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 21, 2012, 05:38:37 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 21, 2012, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on March 20, 2012, 11:30:38 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 19, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
Video of the woman seizing, while the cops stand around and the crowd screams about getting her a doctor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An8OCm-Gl2U)

And yet all the real, good, hard-working 'mericans still love them some cops.
Blows my mind.

Hate to tell you, but that's mainly a media misrepresentation of what Joe America approves of. Most Americans do not like cops. At all.

I'm making that statement based more off of people I live around than anything else. I can accept that it's probably a fluke though, since you and Dok both seem to disagree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=224x2027
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on March 21, 2012, 04:38:01 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
I guess it's just that I look on Occupy as a physical manifestation of KLF.  I don't see it as something external to Occupy.  There has already been a lot of culture jamming going on. 
Occupy does (in a roundabout way) have its genesis in Adbusters, which is itself a culture-jamming organization (albeit one with a very well-defined ideology and a very shiny expensive magazine). So, yes, Occupy is related to culture jamming, involves culture jamming, is physical, and some of the culture jamming is presumably internal to rather than external to Occupy (whatever that means).

QuoteIt should get more intense just like everything else should get more intense.
There are things that should not get more intense. I suspect that a thing that currently involves newsmaking quantities of police brutality has a good argument for being intense enough as-is. Those who believe differently are welcome to volunteer their heads to be bashed in. One of the reasons I'm not in a tent city right now is that I value my head, and would like to keep it intact.

QuoteThe media is always going to label something as vandalism, and they push a dialectic where the vandalism = violence and that somehow justifies a violent response.  That's actually what we have already experienced at Oakland, not something that I would try to bring here.
Fair enough. 'Vandalism' corresponds to a wide range of actual events, and many of them are not worthy of violent retribution. The use of projection rigs on public walls, for instance, doesn't even involve repair costs.

QuoteWhat I would like is that if the "vandalism" was more along the lines of creative culture-jam ideas and less of the random stuff, I think it would actually make our case against the police a lot stronger in the long run as well as serve more usefully to spread our counter-propaganda.
See the postergasm thread(s) for (perhaps better-worded) ideas along these lines. Keep in mind, also, that this place is distinguished primarily by everyone violently disagreeing about everything, and so we have our fair share of internal propaganda and counter-propaganda, and black propaganda, and counter-counter-counter-propaganda. Don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with whatever it is you would like to promote. Expect many people to disagree with large quantities of verbal abuse, peppered with ad hominem attacks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
Quote from: Phosphatidylserine on March 21, 2012, 04:38:01 PM
QuoteIt should get more intense just like everything else should get more intense.
There are things that should not get more intense. I suspect that a thing that currently involves newsmaking quantities of police brutality has a good argument for being intense enough as-is. Those who believe differently are welcome to volunteer their heads to be bashed in. One of the reasons I'm not in a tent city right now is that I value my head, and would like to keep it intact.

Jesus.  Enki just said something that's both UNDERSTANDABLE and COMMON FUCKING SENSE!

KNOW YE WELL THE SIGNS OF THE END TIMES!

But seriously, Enki here is riding the correct motorcycle.  Some things should NOT be more intense.  Hemmeroids, for example, are best when they are NOT intense.  Police beatings, as he points out, are best when half-hearted.  Hangovers are another example.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on March 17, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 16, 2012, 11:11:56 PM

See, I may not be a "True Dischordian", so my opinion may not carry much weight, but it seems to me that I'm not - as a fake discordian - inclined to side with either the police OR Occupy.

Though I gotta say, their "general assemblies" have been nothing short of hilarious.  It's primate politics at its finest.

Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on March 21, 2012, 11:09:58 PM
Have you *read* the last couple pages of this thread? Start here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,30415.1155/msg,1157740.html
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2012, 11:11:07 PM
Also, lies.

Enrico is the physical manifestation of male authority in America.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2012, 11:43:17 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 21, 2012, 11:09:58 PM
Have you *read* the last couple pages of this thread? Start here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,30415.1155/msg,1157740.html

What you fail to understand is that Pope Hobohemian here is a "really real Discordian" and he's here to show us the WAY and the LIGHT!

Actually paying attention to what people are saying might undermine that whole project.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on March 21, 2012, 11:46:04 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM
Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say
Wait, what?

Are you trying to say that it is our Erisian duty to be adamantly opposed to the police, whether or not it actually serves a purpose?  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on March 22, 2012, 12:19:19 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM
Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say

You're looking at this all wrong.  The police aren't actually the manifestation of authority, they just enforce the authority's rules.  that's all they are, man, enforcers.   
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 01:47:36 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM


Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say

1.  Direct democracy does not and never has worked.  It is an abomination.

2.  I think you have me confused with an "anarchist", which is an entirely different thing from a Discordian.  Being a good little Erisian, I do not make any distinction between order & disorder.  Both are part of chaos, and both have their place.   Right now, there's order for everybody, because the public has grown too gutless to be free.  All the occupy movement hilarity in the world won't help, because the problem isn't in the government or the corporations, the problem is in our heads.

ETA:  And what the fuck do I care if the heirarchy is male or female? 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on March 22, 2012, 03:51:41 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on March 22, 2012, 12:19:19 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM
Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say

You're looking at this all wrong.  The police aren't actually the manifestation of authority, they just enforce the authority's rules.  that's all they are, man, enforcers.

That's a really good point. You can fuck with every last cop in the world, but even if some of them drop out, more are just going to show up. You gotta go in all sorts of other directions (inwards is the big one) to actually undermine authority in a legitimately helpful way. Or, that's just one man's opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on March 22, 2012, 04:01:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 01:47:36 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM


Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say

1.  Direct democracy does not and never has worked.  It is an abomination.

2.  I think you have me confused with an "anarchist", which is an entirely different thing from a Discordian.  Being a good little Erisian, I do not make any distinction between order & disorder.  Both are part of chaos, and both have their place.   Right now, there's order for everybody, because the public has grown too gutless to be free.  All the occupy movement hilarity in the world won't help, because the problem isn't in the government or the corporations, the problem is in our heads.

ETA:  And what the fuck do I care if the heirarchy is male or female?

If the hierarchy were less male, there might not be as much VAJAJAYS ARE SCARRY! screed, and women peoples might not have such a hard time getting shit they need. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on March 22, 2012, 04:45:08 AM
But then wouldn't there b a ban on phallusususes, prostate exams, and mandatory vasectomies?

...

..

.

:aaa:

Phox,
Thinking we need a female hierarchy now...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 22, 2012, 05:07:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on March 22, 2012, 04:45:08 AM
But then wouldn't there b a ban on phallusususes, prostate exams, and mandatory vasectomies?

...

..

.

:aaa:

Phox,
Thinking we need a female hierarchy now...

It wouldn't help.
They'd make sure it was Michelle Bachmann, Taylor Swift, Newt Gingrich's android wife and the entire cast of The View.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 22, 2012, 05:21:26 AM
Quote from: Phosphatidylserine on March 21, 2012, 04:38:01 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 20, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
I guess it's just that I look on Occupy as a physical manifestation of KLF.  I don't see it as something external to Occupy.  There has already been a lot of culture jamming going on. 
Occupy does (in a roundabout way) have its genesis in Adbusters, which is itself a culture-jamming organization (albeit one with a very well-defined ideology and a very shiny expensive magazine). So, yes, Occupy is related to culture jamming, involves culture jamming, is physical, and some of the culture jamming is presumably internal to rather than external to Occupy (whatever that means).

QuoteIt should get more intense just like everything else should get more intense.
There are things that should not get more intense. I suspect that a thing that currently involves newsmaking quantities of police brutality has a good argument for being intense enough as-is. Those who believe differently are welcome to volunteer their heads to be bashed in. One of the reasons I'm not in a tent city right now is that I value my head, and would like to keep it intact.

QuoteThe media is always going to label something as vandalism, and they push a dialectic where the vandalism = violence and that somehow justifies a violent response.  That's actually what we have already experienced at Oakland, not something that I would try to bring here.
Fair enough. 'Vandalism' corresponds to a wide range of actual events, and many of them are not worthy of violent retribution. The use of projection rigs on public walls, for instance, doesn't even involve repair costs.

QuoteWhat I would like is that if the "vandalism" was more along the lines of creative culture-jam ideas and less of the random stuff, I think it would actually make our case against the police a lot stronger in the long run as well as serve more usefully to spread our counter-propaganda.
See the postergasm thread(s) for (perhaps better-worded) ideas along these lines. Keep in mind, also, that this place is distinguished primarily by everyone violently disagreeing about everything, and so we have our fair share of internal propaganda and counter-propaganda, and black propaganda, and counter-counter-counter-propaganda. Don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with whatever it is you would like to promote. Expect many people to disagree with large quantities of verbal abuse, peppered with ad hominem attacks.

Wow, talk about misinterpreting cause and effect.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 02:20:54 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on March 22, 2012, 04:01:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 01:47:36 AM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM


Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say

1.  Direct democracy does not and never has worked.  It is an abomination.

2.  I think you have me confused with an "anarchist", which is an entirely different thing from a Discordian.  Being a good little Erisian, I do not make any distinction between order & disorder.  Both are part of chaos, and both have their place.   Right now, there's order for everybody, because the public has grown too gutless to be free.  All the occupy movement hilarity in the world won't help, because the problem isn't in the government or the corporations, the problem is in our heads.

ETA:  And what the fuck do I care if the heirarchy is male or female?

If the hierarchy were less male, there might not be as much VAJAJAYS ARE SCARRY! screed, and women peoples might not have such a hard time getting shit they need.

Given that half of these bills in Arizona, for example, are sponsored by women, I'm going to argue that it's not a gender thing at all, but a general authoritarian thing.

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
Tripped across an H.L. Mencken quote:

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely,
one who likes his country more than the rest of us and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us
when he sees it debauched.  He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
- H. L. Mencken
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trippinprincezz13 on March 22, 2012, 05:30:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on March 21, 2012, 11:46:04 PM
Quote from: Pope Hobohemian on March 21, 2012, 10:43:17 PM
Yeah, I certainly don't want to replace our government with direct democracy.  People are too apathetic.  Even among occupy folks, most don't pay attention to the GA anymore.

But if you are a real discordian, and you don't see any reason to oppose the police, who are the physical manifestation of authority and male hierarchy here in America, I don't know what else to say
Wait, what?

Are you trying to say that it is our Erisian duty to be adamantly opposed to the police, whether or not it actually serves a purpose?  :lulz:

Obviously! I mean, that cop that pulled me over for speeding then shortly after when I was in an accident, drove me and my boyfriend home, tried to help me find a new car and then forget his paperwork when the appeal for the ticket came up? What an asshole. I obviously should have kicked him in the nuts and run away laughing.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 05:31:13 PM
Here's the thing about Occupy:  It served its purpose.  It let people know that loads of people are pissed off.  That is the limit of what Occupy can accomplish.  Anything further will make a joke of it.

Something new needs to take its place.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on March 22, 2012, 05:32:21 PM
Isn't that kind of like waiting for lightning to strike twice?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 05:32:55 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 22, 2012, 05:32:21 PM
Isn't that kind of like waiting for lightning to strike twice?

Which?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on March 22, 2012, 05:43:11 PM
I guess what I'm saying is that something new and interesting happened with Occupy.  New and interesting things don't happen very often.  So for that same group to come up with another new and interesting thing, well, I think the probability drops of sharply.

I can see, even now, the mentality of, "It worked last time, let's do the same thing again!" and have everything fail miserably.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: trippinprincezz13 on March 22, 2012, 05:58:07 PM
Predictability makes it much easier to deal with, compartmentalize and set aside. Already I barely hear anything about it and have a strong feeling that if I asked people about it, I'd get a good dose of "that's still going on?". Not that I think people have completely forgotten about it and it will likely (hopefully) still be in people's mind come election, but there's always the next BIG THING or distraction, and fade away as another fad. Flash mobs were big and new until they were co-opted by Taco Bell (or whoever) and the like. Not that I want to imagine things are that dire, that Occupy is already come and gone - but if they want to keep the average person's attention, something *new* has to happen.

Not that I know quite what that should be.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 22, 2012, 05:43:11 PM
I guess what I'm saying is that something new and interesting happened with Occupy.  New and interesting things don't happen very often.  So for that same group to come up with another new and interesting thing, well, I think the probability drops of sharply.

I can see, even now, the mentality of, "It worked last time, let's do the same thing again!" and have everything fail miserably.

Not so sure about that.  When Occupy started here, it was mostly college students and veterans.  All the tents were in perfectly straight lines, and everything was organized down to the last detail.  No drugs or alcohol were permitted, by the movement itself.

Now it's a pack of useless Tucson drones who finally have an excuse to live in a tent in the park, instead of going to work at the call center and paying the bills.  The veterans and the college kids aren't going back to that, because it's no longer reminescent of an army camp of some kind; it's a Hooverville.

So, with any luck at all, this summer will result in something different...Seeing as how the problems are WORSE, not better.  Who knows?  Maybe we can think of something, and find a way to spread it.

Beats the hell out of 3 word story.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
How about "follow a banker/CEO/hedge fund manager home"?

Say, 200 people walk to the guy's house, and just stand on the sidewalk staring at the place?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on March 22, 2012, 06:04:27 PM
What I hope is that Occupy got enough like minded people connected with each other that it will spawn something new.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on March 22, 2012, 06:04:27 PM
What I hope is that Occupy got enough like minded people connected with each other that it will spawn something new.

Thing is, all that's left at the occupy site (here, anyway) are derelicts.  They don't even bother putting up signs, anymore.

So how does word get out to the more serious people?  There's no way to find them.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on March 22, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on March 22, 2012, 06:04:27 PM
What I hope is that Occupy got enough like minded people connected with each other that it will spawn something new.

Thing is, all that's left at the occupy site (here, anyway) are derelicts.  They don't even bother putting up signs, anymore.

So how does word get out to the more serious people?  There's no way to find them.

My hope is that some of the more serious people are still in contact with each other.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on March 22, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on March 22, 2012, 06:04:27 PM
What I hope is that Occupy got enough like minded people connected with each other that it will spawn something new.

Thing is, all that's left at the occupy site (here, anyway) are derelicts.  They don't even bother putting up signs, anymore.

So how does word get out to the more serious people?  There's no way to find them.

My hope is that some of the more serious people are still in contact with each other.

Well, I'm thinking that the more serious people are watched on FB, etc, by the followers.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 22, 2012, 06:23:17 PM
There are plans to restart the protests.  The recent beatdown in New York was meant to be the "back in business" protest to show they hadn't gone away.

It could be that the general assemblies will start laying down some ground rules again, and get things rolling.

On the other hand, I get the impression a lot of Occupy are looking to Greece for their next move.  Anarchists, unionists and other organisers associated with Occupy have all been visiting the country in recent months.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:25:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 22, 2012, 06:23:17 PM
There are plans to restart the protests.  The recent beatdown in New York was meant to be the "back in business" protest to show they hadn't gone away.

It could be that the general assemblies will start laying down some ground rules again, and get things rolling.

On the other hand, I get the impression a lot of Occupy are looking to Greece for their next move.  Anarchists, unionists and other organisers associated with Occupy have all been visiting the country in recent months.

I hope so.

With the exception of Oakland, Occupy wasn't nearly threatening enough.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on March 22, 2012, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on March 22, 2012, 05:58:07 PM
Flash mobs were big and new until they were co-opted by Taco Bell (or whoever) and the like.


OCCUPY THE TACO!
:taco:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 22, 2012, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
How about "follow a banker/CEO/hedge fund manager home"?

Say, 200 people walk to the guy's house, and just stand on the sidewalk staring at the place?

:lulz:

That could work. And it would beat sleeping in a tent in AZ in the summer.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on March 22, 2012, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
How about "follow a banker/CEO/hedge fund manager home"?

Say, 200 people walk to the guy's house, and just stand on the sidewalk staring at the place?

Hell yeah, but they have done this:

http://occupyourhomes.org/blog/2012/mar/15/m14-mn-march-on-us-bank/

I'd definitely like to see more of those sorts of protests.

I also think the camping can be worthwhile if it's done to make foreclosing on people's homes a massive hassle for the banks or results in a shutdown of a bank branch. (http://www.sacramentopress.com/headline/65261/US_Bank_leaves_UC_Davis_Whats_next)

The media hasn't reported on the Occupy Your Homes project but as far as I can tell it is alive and kicking.

I'd recommend getting involved with your local Occupy and making suggestions for events you'd like to see happen. From the looks of Occupy Tuscon's events page, they could use your input. Even if you don't get consensus and whatnot as an Occupy supported event, there's usually a number of people that will join you if you put the word out.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 10:06:27 PM
Quote from: Net on March 22, 2012, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
How about "follow a banker/CEO/hedge fund manager home"?

Say, 200 people walk to the guy's house, and just stand on the sidewalk staring at the place?

Hell yeah, but they have done this:

http://occupyourhomes.org/blog/2012/mar/15/m14-mn-march-on-us-bank/

I'd definitely like to see more of those sorts of protests.

I also think the camping can be worthwhile if it's done to make foreclosing on people's homes a massive hassle for the banks or results in a shutdown of a bank branch. (http://www.sacramentopress.com/headline/65261/US_Bank_leaves_UC_Davis_Whats_next)

The media hasn't reported on the Occupy Your Homes project but as far as I can tell it is alive and kicking.

I'd recommend getting involved with your local Occupy and making suggestions for events you'd like to see happen. From the looks of Occupy Tuscon's events page, they could use your input. Even if you don't get consensus and whatnot as an Occupy supported event, there's usually a number of people that will join you if you put the word out.

Occupy Tucson is as dead as yesterday's fish sammich.  It's basically become a hippie commune that celebrates poor personal hygiene and doing "bath salts".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on March 22, 2012, 10:28:36 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 10:06:27 PM
Quote from: Net on March 22, 2012, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
How about "follow a banker/CEO/hedge fund manager home"?

Say, 200 people walk to the guy's house, and just stand on the sidewalk staring at the place?

Hell yeah, but they have done this:

http://occupyourhomes.org/blog/2012/mar/15/m14-mn-march-on-us-bank/

I'd definitely like to see more of those sorts of protests.

I also think the camping can be worthwhile if it's done to make foreclosing on people's homes a massive hassle for the banks or results in a shutdown of a bank branch. (http://www.sacramentopress.com/headline/65261/US_Bank_leaves_UC_Davis_Whats_next)

The media hasn't reported on the Occupy Your Homes project but as far as I can tell it is alive and kicking.

I'd recommend getting involved with your local Occupy and making suggestions for events you'd like to see happen. From the looks of Occupy Tuscon's events page, they could use your input. Even if you don't get consensus and whatnot as an Occupy supported event, there's usually a number of people that will join you if you put the word out.

Occupy Tucson is as dead as yesterday's fish sammich.  It's basically become a hippie commune that celebrates poor personal hygiene and doing "bath salts".

Christ. We have that element, but also many normal people to balance things out.

You're sure a little rage and SCIENCE! couldn't rouse them to action?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 10:40:57 PM
Quote from: Net on March 22, 2012, 10:28:36 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 10:06:27 PM
Quote from: Net on March 22, 2012, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
How about "follow a banker/CEO/hedge fund manager home"?

Say, 200 people walk to the guy's house, and just stand on the sidewalk staring at the place?

Hell yeah, but they have done this:

http://occupyourhomes.org/blog/2012/mar/15/m14-mn-march-on-us-bank/

I'd definitely like to see more of those sorts of protests.

I also think the camping can be worthwhile if it's done to make foreclosing on people's homes a massive hassle for the banks or results in a shutdown of a bank branch. (http://www.sacramentopress.com/headline/65261/US_Bank_leaves_UC_Davis_Whats_next)

The media hasn't reported on the Occupy Your Homes project but as far as I can tell it is alive and kicking.

I'd recommend getting involved with your local Occupy and making suggestions for events you'd like to see happen. From the looks of Occupy Tuscon's events page, they could use your input. Even if you don't get consensus and whatnot as an Occupy supported event, there's usually a number of people that will join you if you put the word out.

Occupy Tucson is as dead as yesterday's fish sammich.  It's basically become a hippie commune that celebrates poor personal hygiene and doing "bath salts".

Christ. We have that element, but also many normal people to balance things out.

You're sure a little rage and SCIENCE! couldn't rouse them to action?

Not until summer.  The vets are mostly university students now, and while they WANT to get involved, they really can't.  Also, they won't be going back to Occupy, so we'll have to figure something else out.

My takeway is that the 24/7 occupation was a huge mistake.  Business hours would have done just fine.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 23, 2012, 04:06:18 PM
Having to retake the space every day would have been more difficult than just trying to hold it. I dunno what's next, but I hope it involves more of the awesome people and less of the self-important professional protesters putting their own causes ahead of the group's.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 23, 2012, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 23, 2012, 04:06:18 PM
Having to retake the space every day would have been more difficult than just trying to hold it.

Retaking it every day would have been more recognizable as an implied threat.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then the revolution was cancelled on account of sloth.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 24, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 23, 2012, 06:28:35 PM
Annnnnnnnnnnd then the revolution was cancelled on account of sloth.

It was on account of "whiny bitches" up here...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2012, 07:03:18 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 24, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 23, 2012, 06:28:35 PM
Annnnnnnnnnnd then the revolution was cancelled on account of sloth.

It was on account of "whiny bitches" up here...

:?

My point was:

1.  Occupying each day:  Pain in the ass, but disruptive as hell...AND menacing without being illegal, versus

2.  Having the movement eventually morph into a filthy Hooverville full of drones.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 01, 2012, 02:40:44 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2012, 07:03:18 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 24, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 23, 2012, 06:28:35 PM
Annnnnnnnnnnd then the revolution was cancelled on account of sloth.

It was on account of "whiny bitches" up here...

:?

My point was:

1.  Occupying each day:  Pain in the ass, but disruptive as hell...AND menacing without being illegal, versus

2.  Having the movement eventually morph into a filthy Hooverville full of drones.

This is a very good point.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on April 04, 2012, 04:04:02 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/6bDKn.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/8WOVt.jpg)

More here: http://fthebanks.org/materials/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on April 04, 2012, 05:21:00 AM
Those I think I need to put up on some of the banks around Tacoma.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on April 04, 2012, 06:53:29 PM
(http://mewfree.free.fr/REno/Spiral%20Tribe/Spiral%20Tribe/ethnographie_clip_image028.jpg)
We need more professional cultural provocateurs  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 04, 2012, 07:00:55 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on April 04, 2012, 06:53:29 PM
(http://mewfree.free.fr/REno/Spiral%20Tribe/Spiral%20Tribe/ethnographie_clip_image028.jpg)
We need more professional cultural provocateurs  :lulz:

Is that...JEBUS?  :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 04, 2012, 07:01:23 PM
That explains why he hasn't returned, anyway.

And, BOY, are the Christian conservatives gonna be PISSED!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on April 04, 2012, 08:23:03 PM
OOH, NET. Thanks! I'm going to print those out soon and go to town!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on April 23, 2012, 09:08:27 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on April 04, 2012, 08:23:03 PM
OOH, NET. Thanks! I'm going to print those out soon and go to town!

:banana:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on April 23, 2012, 09:17:11 PM
It was charts like these that reactivated my rage gland. I hope they make you just as livid. Mother Jones has handy PDFs of most of these so you can print them out:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

(http://i.imgur.com/oBckG.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/lQxLi.gif)

(http://i.imgur.com/RrwQu.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/1ASPY.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/VnmaU.png)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Oysters Rockefeller on April 23, 2012, 11:47:57 PM
Thanks for the link. I'm going to go shove these in some people's faces, and prooooobably get myself uninvited to a lot of social events as a result.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on April 24, 2012, 03:34:58 AM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on April 23, 2012, 11:47:57 PM
Thanks for the link. I'm going to go shove these in some people's faces, and prooooobably get myself uninvited to a lot of social events as a result.

:awesome:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: navkat on April 24, 2012, 03:59:28 AM
So, have we decided yet whether we're Star-bellied or Plain-bellied sneeches yet? I'm getting tired of going through McBean's Machines. It's costing a lot of money and this can't be any good for my body.

Ironically, this is the same exact thing I said when I stopped "Raving."
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 01, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Occupy protests have restarted today

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-30/occupy-wall-street-plans-global-disruption-of-status-quo-may-1.html
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 01, 2012, 05:04:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 01, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Occupy protests have restarted today

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-30/occupy-wall-street-plans-global-disruption-of-status-quo-may-1.html

WOOOT!
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 01, 2012, 05:06:12 PM
I don't really want to walk out of my sociology class, though.  :lulz: It's on social change.

I wonder what the instructor has to say about this? I guess I'll be finding out shortly.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 01, 2012, 05:06:38 PM
Except in London, because the weather is shit.

"What if they held a revolution...and it got rained off?"
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on May 01, 2012, 07:12:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 01, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Occupy protests have restarted today

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-30/occupy-wall-street-plans-global-disruption-of-status-quo-may-1.html

... but the status quo is where I keep all my stuff ...

Also, this wasn't today? My stuff appears undisrupted, as does my status quo. Except for being more well-rested. If that's how they disrupted my status quo (globally!) I must applaud them.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 02, 2012, 02:08:49 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 01, 2012, 05:04:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 01, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Occupy protests have restarted today

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-30/occupy-wall-street-plans-global-disruption-of-status-quo-may-1.html

WOOOT!

Been in the downtown PDX fray since this morning. Walked for a bit to charge my phone. Mostly tame (though I wasn't there for the home "takeback" in NE) but riot police in plenty on standby, about a dozen people arrested. Some reports that the Wells Fargo center lost it's sign, though I haven't been down there to investigate. Nervous looking security guards in front of every Bank of America I've passed.

A "Permitted" march is starting now, with at least two other non-permitted actions planned. 

The main activities are just one of many separate actions. While shit was happening in Pioneer Square, I passed one group headed to the WTC for something, and a group of Black-bloc with balloons and a cart headed in some other direction. There are two helicopters and one plane in the sky right now. One keeeps swooping in and pulling out...not a news copter, the other is hovering and just observing.

The chants are full on hostile: "Don't back down. Strike back."

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on May 02, 2012, 05:19:17 AM
Evidently there was an Occupy Tacoma thing going on today, too bad I had a midterm to take today. I justify it by me sticking Uncle Sam with my tuition bill.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 02, 2012, 05:21:04 AM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on May 02, 2012, 02:08:49 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 01, 2012, 05:04:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 01, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Occupy protests have restarted today

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-30/occupy-wall-street-plans-global-disruption-of-status-quo-may-1.html

WOOOT!

Been in the downtown PDX fray since this morning. Walked for a bit to charge my phone. Mostly tame (though I wasn't there for the home "takeback" in NE) but riot police in plenty on standby, about a dozen people arrested. Some reports that the Wells Fargo center lost it's sign, though I haven't been down there to investigate. Nervous looking security guards in front of every Bank of America I've passed.

A "Permitted" march is starting now, with at least two other non-permitted actions planned. 

The main activities are just one of many separate actions. While shit was happening in Pioneer Square, I passed one group headed to the WTC for something, and a group of Black-bloc with balloons and a cart headed in some other direction. There are two helicopters and one plane in the sky right now. One keeeps swooping in and pulling out...not a news copter, the other is hovering and just observing.

The chants are full on hostile: "Don't back down. Strike back."

Nothing to speak of in the news about any of this. Interestingly.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on May 02, 2012, 01:47:47 PM
I noticed that too. I think someone is putting pressure on local authority (Governors/Mayors) to put pressure on local news stations to keep Occupy off the airwaves.


Here's some links I ran across:

http://gawker.com/5906500/nypd-raids-activists-homes-before-tomorrows-occupy-wall-street-protests

One of the most interesting tactics (which I heard about during Esozone last year) is a "Bike Swarm"... as non-pedestrians who are continually moving, the Police don't have the 'loitering' excuse to mess with them. They surrounded one of the Parks last year for hours one night, preventing police from entering.

http://www.pdxbikeswarm.org/

And the WWeek has some interesting coverage of a "foreclosure occupation" (with the 'former' owners approval).

http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-28581-occupy_portland_occupy_foreclosed_home.html
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Triple Zero on May 02, 2012, 03:36:50 PM
Heh. I like the bike swarm.

Would never work in NL though. Even though everybody has a bike, riot police "mobile units" has big ass horses that don't afraid of anything, especially trampling stuff. When they decide they want to clear the streets, they clear the streets. 30 minutes tops. Way too organised. The more I read about them, the more I realize that the only way to affect change here is through official democratic processes (which thankfully aren't quite as hopelessly crooked as yours), cause the streets will be tolerated only if allowed.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 02, 2012, 04:17:07 PM
The (relative) media silence on US protests yesterday is really interesting.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: hirley0 on May 02, 2012, 04:29:48 PM
NO it is NOT . B.O. Left. Right? at a COST of x$ ?/? Correct tbd








Quote from: Nigel on May 02, 2012, 04:17:07 PM
The (relative) media silence on US protests yesterday is really interesting.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 02, 2012, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 02, 2012, 04:17:07 PM
The (relative) media silence on US protests yesterday is really interesting.

I wouldn't have known they were happening at all if it wasn't for this thread, and some whining teabaggers at CG.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on May 02, 2012, 07:55:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 02, 2012, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 02, 2012, 04:17:07 PM
The (relative) media silence on US protests yesterday is really interesting.

I wouldn't have known they were happening at all if it wasn't for this thread, and some whining teabaggers at CG.
Same only in my case it's whinery on facebook. Making myself unpopular with someone I knew in high school now. :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2012, 06:41:54 PM
No comment needed

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/david-graeber-new-police-strategy-in-new-york-sexual-assault-against-peaceful-protestors.html

QuoteA few weeks ago I was with a few companions from Occupy Wall Street in Union Square when an old friend — I'll call her Eileen — passed through, her hand in a cast.

"What happened to you?" I asked.

"Oh, this?" she held it up. "I was in Liberty Park on the 17th [the Six Month Anniversary of the Occupation]. When the cops were pushing us out the park, one of them yanked at my breast."

"Again?" someone said.

We had all been hearing stories like this. In fact, there had been continual reports of police officers groping women during the nightly evictions from Union Square itself over the previous two weeks.

"Yeah so I screamed at the guy, I said, 'you grabbed my boob! what are you, some kind of fucking pervert?' So they took me behind the lines and broke my wrists."

QuoteAlmost no march goes by without one or two protestors, at least, being hurled against vehicles or have their heads bashed against the ground while being arrested for straying off the sidewalk. The message here is clear. Law has nothing to do with it. Anyone who engages in Occupy Wall Street-related activity should know they can be arrested, for virtually any reason, at any time.

Many of these arrests are carried out in such a way to guarantee physical injury. The tone was set on that first night of March 17, when my friend Eileen's wrists were broken; others suffered broken fingers, concussions, and broken ribs. Again, this was on a night where OWS actions were confined to sitting in a park, playing music, raising one or two tents, and marching down the street. To give a sense of the level of violence protestors were subjected to, during the march north to Union Square, we saw the first major incident of window-breaking in New York. The window in question was broken not by protestors, but by police—using a protestor's head. The victim in this case was a street medic named José (owing to the likelihood of physical assault and injuries from police, OWSers in New York as elsewhere have come to carry out even the most peaceful protests accompanied by medics trained in basic first aid.) He offered no resistance.

QuoteArbitrary violence is nothing new. The apparently systematic use of sexual assault against women protestors is new. I'm not aware of any reports of police intentionally grabbing women's breasts before March 17, but on March 17 there were numerous reported cases, and in later nightly evictions from Union Square, the practice became so systematic that at least one woman told me her breasts were grabbed by five different police officers on a single night (in one case, while another one was blowing kisses.) The tactic appeared so abruptly, is so obviously a violation of any sort of police protocol or standard of legality, that it is hard to imagine it is anything but an intentional policy.

For obvious reasons, most of the women who have been victims of such assaults have been hesitant to come forward. Suing the city is a miserable and time-consuming task and if a woman brings any charge involving sexual misconduct, they can expect to have their own history and reputations—no matter how obviously irrelevant—raked over the coals, usually causing immense damage to their personal and professional life. The threat of doing so operates as a very effective form of intimidation. One exception is Cecily McMillan, who was not only groped but suffered a broken rib and seizures during her arrest on March 17, and held incommunicado, denied constant requests to see her lawyer, for over 24 hours thereafter. Shortly after release from the hospital she appeared on Democracy Now! And showed part of a handprint, replete with scratch-marks, that police had left directly over her right breast.

QuoteFor many, the thought of police officials ordering or condoning sexual assault—even if just through a nod or a wink—seems so shocking that absolute proof would be required. But is it really so out of character? As Naomi Wolf has recently reminded us, the US security apparatus has long "used sexual humiliation as a tool of control." Any experienced activist is aware of the delight police officers so often take in explaining just how certainly they will be raped if placed in prison. Strip searches—which the Supreme Court has recently ruled can be deployed against any citizen held for so much as a traffic violation—are often deployed as a tool of humiliation and punishment. And one need hardly remark on well-documented practices at Guantanamo, Bagram, or Abu Ghraib. Why target women in particular? No doubt it's partly simply the logic of the bully, to brutalize those you think are weak, and more easily traumatized. But another reason is, almost certainly, the hope of provoking violent reactions on the part of male protestors. I myself well remember a police tactic I observed more than once during the World Economic Forum demonstrations in New York in 2002: a plainclothes officer would tackle a young female marcher, without announcing of who they were, and when one or two men would gallantly try to come to her assistance, uniforms would rush in and arrest them for "assaulting an officer." The logic makes perfect sense to someone with military background. Soldiers who oppose allowing a combat role for women almost invariably say they do so not because they are afraid women would not behave effectively in battle, but because they are afraid men would not behave effectively in battle if women were present—that is, that they would become so obsessed with the possibility of women in their unit being captured and sexually assaulted that they would behave irrationally. If the police were trying to provoke a violent reaction on the part of studiously non-violent protestors, as a way of justifying even greater brutality and felony charges, this would clearly be the most effective means of doing so.

There's a good deal of anecdotal evidence that would tend to confirm that this is exactly what they are trying to do. One of the most peculiar incidents took place on a recent march in New York where police seem to have simulated such an assault, arresting a young women who most activists later concluded was probably an undercover officer (no one had seen her before or has seen her since), then ostentatiously groping her as she was handcuffed. Reportedly, several male protestors had to physically restrained (by other protestors) from charging in to help her.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 07:30:32 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 03, 2012, 06:41:54 PM
"Yeah so I screamed at the guy, I said, 'you grabbed my boob! what are you, some kind of fucking pervert?' So they took me behind the lines and broke my wrists."
[/quote]

AMERICA, AMERRRRICA....
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2012, 07:57:58 PM
Yeah, that particular bit was....unpleasant to read.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 03, 2012, 07:57:58 PM
Yeah, that particular bit was....unpleasant to read.

I just cross posted the whole thing to CG.  Klattu was jabbering about how "awesome" that was, then linked to a RWN blog about how JT Ready was an Occupy liberal.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2012, 08:31:12 PM
Wat
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Freeky on May 03, 2012, 08:35:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 03, 2012, 08:31:12 PM
Wat
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on May 03, 2012, 08:36:15 PM
Just fucking wow.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:36:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 03, 2012, 08:31:12 PM
Wat

Go look at the last page of the occupy thread over there.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:37:15 PM
http://www.capitolgrilling.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=685220&page=1&fpart=12
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Phox on May 03, 2012, 08:38:54 PM
I. I'm trying so hard to comprehend what possible world could exist in which any of that is positive. I feel like more dopamine is necessary. there may not be enough dopamine in the collective brains of the present and past population of the human species to process this, though.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:40:14 PM
Quote from: Phox, Mistress of Many Names on May 03, 2012, 08:38:54 PM
I. I'm trying so hard to comprehend what possible world could exist in which any of that is positive. I feel like more dopamine is necessary. there may not be enough dopamine in the collective brains of the present and past population of the human species to process this, though.

It's just your bad attitude, Phoxie.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2012, 08:40:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:37:15 PM
http://www.capitolgrilling.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=685220&page=1&fpart=12

Yeah, that's the kind of guy who wont be welcome on my forum, once it's up and running.

Although I doubt he's even that welcome on there.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:42:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 03, 2012, 08:40:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:37:15 PM
http://www.capitolgrilling.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=685220&page=1&fpart=12

Yeah, that's the kind of guy who wont be welcome on my forum, once it's up and running.

Although I doubt he's even that welcome on there.

The only reason he's there is that the admin abandoned the place.  Look at the image on the upper left of the image page.

If Frank regs, though, track his IP for me, and just give me the state he's in.  My money says Illinois.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:44:09 PM
Incidentally, "Klattu" is a sock puppet for "Gag Reflex".  Same guy.

Frank = Bryan Hinnen/Bryan the Freeper = McShibbster = Groucho, and a few others that I can't recollect.

Cubfan is legit, and if removed from that cesspit would be a good conservative member.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on May 03, 2012, 08:44:40 PM
Quote from: Phox, Mistress of Many Names on May 03, 2012, 08:38:54 PM
I. I'm trying so hard to comprehend what possible world could exist in which any of that is positive. I feel like more dopamine is necessary. there may not be enough dopamine in the collective brains of the present and past population of the human species to process this, though.

I'm coping by being over the top scarcastic about this, mostly to make some of the my ignorant circle of aquantances somewhat aware of the shit going on.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on May 03, 2012, 08:52:03 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

That's exactly what passed through my head when I noticed it.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

I'm more than my sexuality,  I read this thread whenever there's something new in it because I keep hoping that Occupy turns out to be effective.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:56:29 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

I'm more than my sexuality,  I read this thread whenever there's something new in it because I keep hoping that Occupy turns out to be effective.

No, you fucking aren't.  Sexual assault & serious harm mixed together is your kink, you sick fuck.

Die in a fire.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on May 03, 2012, 08:57:29 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

I'm more than my sexuality,  I read this thread whenever there's something new in it because I keep hoping that Occupy turns out to be effective.

:tldr:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 09:03:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:56:29 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

I'm more than my sexuality,  I read this thread whenever there's something new in it because I keep hoping that Occupy turns out to be effective.

No, you fucking aren't.  Sexual assault & serious harm mixed together is your kink, you sick fuck.

Die in a fire.

:tldr:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 03, 2012, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 02, 2012, 03:36:50 PM
Heh. I like the bike swarm.

Would never work in NL though. Even though everybody has a bike, riot police "mobile units" has big ass horses that don't afraid of anything, especially trampling stuff. When they decide they want to clear the streets, they clear the streets. 30 minutes tops. Way too organised. The more I read about them, the more I realize that the only way to affect change here is through official democratic processes (which thankfully aren't quite as hopelessly crooked as yours), cause the streets will be tolerated only if allowed.

Bike Swarm was out Tuesday...so were the horses and the bike cops. The general tactic with the horses was to follow and just stand once most of the crowd was cleared. I was like 2 inches from one before I noticed it. Scared the shit out of me.

The tactic of the bike cops is where shit would get messy. Full speed "flying V". Barrel into the protestors, take down as many as they needed, and tackle them while they were trying to disentangle themselves from the mess of bikes and bodies. Those were the ugliest take-downs I saw. No swarm on bike cop confrontations. That would have been nastier still.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2012, 09:47:58 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

I'm more than my sexuality,  I read this thread whenever there's something new in it because I keep hoping that Occupy turns out to be effective.

Occupy will turn out to be effective as soon as they start slaughtering cops. Until then it's just greasy hippies whining.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on May 04, 2012, 05:54:26 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2012, 09:47:58 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 03, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 03, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Shit, Babylon's looking at this thread.  He'll be fapping over that girl getting her wrists broken for weeks.

I'm more than my sexuality,  I read this thread whenever there's something new in it because I keep hoping that Occupy turns out to be effective.

Occupy will turn out to be effective as soon as they start slaughtering cops. Until then it's just greasy hippies whining.

I don't think slaughtering cops would make achieve much.  They don't have the resources to take on the government militarially and escalating that way would turn them from a popular front into a violent revolutionary group. 

Occupy our homes has made some difference, occupying foreclosed homes and staving off foreclosures, that sort of direct action is, IMO, the way forward rather than symbolic gestures like occupying parks.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2012, 06:12:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that, ultimately, the foreclosure thing is sticking your finger in a dyke but I'd love to be proven wrong. Maybe everything will get fixed and the guys who stole all the lucre will turn around all, "terribly sorry, here's your house back" but I can't help feeling that it's some other kind of action that'll turn that one around.

It's not about winning hearts and minds. The bad guys don't give a fuck about hearts and minds, and are more than happy to stomp all over them. They know that fear is a greater motivator.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: BabylonHoruv on May 04, 2012, 06:57:45 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2012, 06:12:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that, ultimately, the foreclosure thing is sticking your finger in a dyke but I'd love to be proven wrong. Maybe everything will get fixed and the guys who stole all the lucre will turn around all, "terribly sorry, here's your house back" but I can't help feeling that it's some other kind of action that'll turn that one around.

It's not about winning hearts and minds. The bad guys don't give a fuck about hearts and minds, and are more than happy to stomp all over them. They know that fear is a greater motivator.

There have been some foreclosures that have been reversed by courts due to insufficient documentation and so forth.  The families having stayed in the house is part of why they were considered for reversal.

It's not total victory, but it does make a difference.

As far as hearts and minds, a popular movement needs them, that's basically the definition of a popular movement.  A militant revolutionary movement might be more effective but that's not really the nature of occupy at all, it would have to change its fundamental nature to become one and a military revolutionary movement would probably be better off starting of as an independent entity rather than trying to transform Occupy in that way.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Prince Glittersnatch III on May 12, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2012/05/09/occupy-cleveland-lib-terrorists-exposed

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 12, 2012, 03:33:45 AM
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on May 12, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2012/05/09/occupy-cleveland-lib-terrorists-exposed

One man's terrorist is another man's inept black bloc buffoon.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
Or, as it will invariably turn out, one man's terrorist is another man's FBI funded false flag operation.

Their original plan was to destroy signs for banks.  Suddenly, they're planning to attack a bridge, which would require C4 to take down, and which is close enough to the border to be considered a Federal issue.  Where were they going to get C4?  Why the change in target?  Because an FBI agent provocateur offered access to C4 and suggested the target. 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 12, 2012, 05:45:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
Or, as it will invariably turn out, one man's terrorist is another man's FBI funded false flag operation.

Their original plan was to destroy signs for banks.  Suddenly, they're planning to attack a bridge, which would require C4 to take down, and which is close enough to the border to be considered a Federal issue.  Where were they going to get C4?  Why the change in target?  Because an FBI agent provocateur offered access to C4 and suggested the target.

Yep.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 13, 2012, 12:57:15 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
Or, as it will invariably turn out, one man's terrorist is another man's FBI funded false flag operation.

Their original plan was to destroy signs for banks.  Suddenly, they're planning to attack a bridge, which would require C4 to take down, and which is close enough to the border to be considered a Federal issue.  Where were they going to get C4?  Why the change in target?  Because an FBI agent provocateur offered access to C4 and suggested the target.

That plus the NDAA is the scenario I'm dreading the worst. Just one tiny little link between something like this and the wrong mosque...
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on June 19, 2012, 03:35:11 AM
http://www.occupywallstvideos.com/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 11, 2012, 10:26:32 PM
Zucotti Park just got reoccupied.

Watch them mill around and listen to their horrendous singing/chants via a livestream here:

http://www.ustream.tv/occupyeye
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 01:20:08 AM
Quote from: Net on July 11, 2012, 10:26:32 PM
Zucotti Park just got reoccupied.

Watch them mill around and listen to their horrendous singing/chants via a livestream here:

http://www.ustream.tv/occupyeye

I still believe that occupying a park is kinda missing the point.  It's of course better than sitting on the couch and bitching, but it doesn't seem annoying enough to be really effective.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 12, 2012, 02:15:33 AM
Quote from: The Dead Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 01:20:08 AM
Quote from: Net on July 11, 2012, 10:26:32 PM
Zucotti Park just got reoccupied.

Watch them mill around and listen to their horrendous singing/chants via a livestream here:

http://www.ustream.tv/occupyeye

I still believe that occupying a park is kinda missing the point.  It's of course better than sitting on the couch and bitching, but it doesn't seem annoying enough to be really effective.

I totally agree.

I'm currently trying to dissuade Portland Occutards from reoccupying with mixed success.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 02:04:44 PM
Quote from: Net on July 12, 2012, 02:15:33 AM
Quote from: The Dead Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 01:20:08 AM
Quote from: Net on July 11, 2012, 10:26:32 PM
Zucotti Park just got reoccupied.

Watch them mill around and listen to their horrendous singing/chants via a livestream here:

http://www.ustream.tv/occupyeye

I still believe that occupying a park is kinda missing the point.  It's of course better than sitting on the couch and bitching, but it doesn't seem annoying enough to be really effective.

I totally agree.

I'm currently trying to dissuade Portland Occutards from reoccupying with mixed success.

Oh, Occupying is a great idea.  You just have to take it to the wall.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 12, 2012, 04:15:42 PM
My thoughts exactly. I'm not from America but any time I've heard mention of "wall street" it's never been a street they were talking about, it was a bunch of offices and trading centers. Now if you were to occupy those then, yeah, you might be able to accomplish something although bear in mind that you will have a fight on your hands and that at least one side of that fight will be bringing deadly force to the party.

If that all sounds a bit much then, yeah, maybe sitting in a park, bitching and whining and not upsetting anyone too much is more your speed :lulz:

Protip: No successful occupation in history was accomplished by the invading army, sitting just outside the target objective and chanting kumbaya
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 12, 2012, 04:28:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 12, 2012, 04:15:42 PM
My thoughts exactly. I'm not from America but any time I've heard mention of "wall street" it's never been a street they were talking about, it was a bunch of offices and trading centers. Now if you were to occupy those then, yeah, you might be able to accomplish something although bear in mind that you will have a fight on your hands and that at least one side of that fight will be bringing deadly force to the party.

If that all sounds a bit much then, yeah, maybe sitting in a park, bitching and whining and not upsetting anyone too much is more your speed :lulz:

Protip: No successful occupation in history was accomplished by the invading army, sitting just outside the target objective and chanting kumbaya

Those offices and trading centers are called that because they're on Wall street. FYI.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 12, 2012, 04:36:06 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 12, 2012, 04:28:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 12, 2012, 04:15:42 PM
My thoughts exactly. I'm not from America but any time I've heard mention of "wall street" it's never been a street they were talking about, it was a bunch of offices and trading centers. Now if you were to occupy those then, yeah, you might be able to accomplish something although bear in mind that you will have a fight on your hands and that at least one side of that fight will be bringing deadly force to the party.

If that all sounds a bit much then, yeah, maybe sitting in a park, bitching and whining and not upsetting anyone too much is more your speed :lulz:

Protip: No successful occupation in history was accomplished by the invading army, sitting just outside the target objective and chanting kumbaya

Those offices and trading centers are called that because they're on Wall street. FYI.

Correct
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on July 12, 2012, 05:45:07 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 12, 2012, 04:15:42 PM
My thoughts exactly. I'm not from America but any time I've heard mention of "wall street" it's never been a street they were talking about, it was a bunch of offices and trading centers. Now if you were to occupy those then, yeah, you might be able to accomplish something although bear in mind that you will have a fight on your hands and that at least one side of that fight will be bringing deadly force to the party.

If that all sounds a bit much then, yeah, maybe sitting in a park, bitching and whining and not upsetting anyone too much is more your speed :lulz:

Protip: No successful occupation in history was accomplished by the invading army, sitting just outside the target objective and chanting kumbaya

It's been done before, there's a roadmap. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Indian_Affairs_building_takeover
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on July 12, 2012, 08:31:11 PM
Unions did it too, occupying factories so replacements couldn't get in. Didn't generally end well.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 08:32:48 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on July 12, 2012, 08:31:11 PM
Unions did it too, occupying factories so replacements couldn't get in. Didn't generally end well.

It worked like a fucking charm, some places.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on July 12, 2012, 09:51:29 PM
Oh, it did. I'm just saying the cops, etc. didn't respond in a kindly fashion.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 10:11:29 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on July 12, 2012, 09:51:29 PM
Oh, it did. I'm just saying the cops, etc. didn't respond in a kindly fashion.

I learned that at my grandfather's knee.

But his generation could take it, why not ours?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Juana on July 12, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
Because the last couple got the idea that Those Things Don't Happen To People Like Me from somewhere.

Middle Class Syndrome.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on July 12, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
OCCUPY * MOVEMENT

PRIMARY GOALS: Eliminate Corporate Greed, man!

PRIMARY STRATEGY: Shit in public parks, be obnoxious to nearby businesses, and smell bad.

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: None

SPOKESPERSON: Anyone with a megaphone

REASON FOR FAILURE: Gee I wonder.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 13, 2012, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: v3x on July 12, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
OCCUPY * MOVEMENT

PRIMARY GOALS: Eliminate Corporate Greed, man!

PRIMARY STRATEGY: Shit in public parks, be obnoxious to nearby businesses, and smell bad.

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: None

SPOKESPERSON: Anyone with a megaphone

REASON FOR FAILURE: Gee I wonder.

Almost perfect!  :lulz: all I'd add would be - OPPONENTS: Militarised global superpower with unlimited resources
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 13, 2012, 02:08:17 PM
Quote from: v3x on July 12, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
OCCUPY * MOVEMENT

PRIMARY GOALS: Eliminate Corporate Greed, man!

PRIMARY STRATEGY: Shit in public parks, be obnoxious to nearby businesses, and smell bad.

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: None

SPOKESPERSON: Anyone with a megaphone

REASON FOR FAILURE: Gee I wonder.

:lulz:  I plotzed.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 13, 2012, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: v3x on July 12, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
OCCUPY * MOVEMENT

PRIMARY GOALS: Eliminate Corporate Greed, man!

PRIMARY STRATEGY: Shit in public parks, be obnoxious to nearby businesses, and smell bad.

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: None

SPOKESPERSON: Anyone with a megaphone

REASON FOR FAILURE: Gee I wonder.

:lulz:

Pretty much.

Although Occupy Portland has brought about one particularly welcome change:

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-19432-ratlandia.html

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 14, 2012, 11:29:41 PM
Quote from: Net on July 13, 2012, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: v3x on July 12, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
OCCUPY * MOVEMENT

PRIMARY GOALS: Eliminate Corporate Greed, man!

PRIMARY STRATEGY: Shit in public parks, be obnoxious to nearby businesses, and smell bad.

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: None

SPOKESPERSON: Anyone with a megaphone

REASON FOR FAILURE: Gee I wonder.

:lulz:

Pretty much.

Although Occupy Portland has brought about one particularly welcome change:

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-19432-ratlandia.html

:lulz:

Rats have always been a huge problem downtown, and of course anyplace humans congregate outdoors with food is going to attract them.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: hirley0 on July 15, 2012, 05:37:44 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 14, 2012, 11:29:41 PM

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-19432-ratlandia.H  :lulz:

Rats have always been a huge problem downtown,  them.

Ah hA the tail of 2 Sit E's
so yeah i remember the Rat Tail | i was years ago |
i was still picking b Berries along the Rail Road tracks
East bank | i had crossed the Steel (upper level}
there was no rail trail back in those days
a strange Mustard Yellow ship was tied to the grain
Elevators. When i got down on the RR tracks ||
they cross the river on the lower level of the Steel Bridge
i could see the (Um} mustard tied at the elevator
there was no rat guard on the bow line { very strange
as i walked along the RR track to get to the BB bushes
there were rats along the way. Strange Rats. rather
small and as if the were strangers to the place
Slow moving Kind of like in a drugged state.
for some reason i have always assumed since that day
that they were cargo off of that ship  & bad news . EoT  :fnord:  (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,32692.30/msg,1190146.html)
 
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on July 15, 2012, 08:53:54 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on July 15, 2012, 05:37:44 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 14, 2012, 11:29:41 PM

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-19432-ratlandia.H  :lulz:

Rats have always been a huge problem downtown,  them.

Ah hA the tail of 2 Sit E's
so yeah i remember the Rat Tail | i was years ago |
i was still picking b Berries along the Rail Road tracks
East bank | i had crossed the Steel (upper level}
there was no rail trail back in those days
a strange Mustard Yellow ship was tied to the grain
Elevators. When i got down on the RR tracks ||
they cross the river on the lower level of the Steel Bridge
i could see the (Um} mustard tied at the elevator
there was no rat guard on the bow line { very strange
as i walked along the RR track to get to the BB bushes
there were rats along the way. Strange Rats. rather
small and as if the were strangers to the place
Slow moving Kind of like in a drugged state.
for some reason i have always assumed since that day
that they were cargo off of that ship  & bad news . EoT  :fnord:  (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,32692.30/msg,1190146.html)


Drugged rats, maybe poisoned but resisting it.

Portland sounds like a very cosmopolitan place for rats. No inbreeding.

Super rats could be the wave of the future.

I liked the San Francisco wharf rats. They were huge and tame and we fed them sourdough bread.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 17, 2012, 01:34:00 AM
Quote from: hirley0 on July 15, 2012, 05:37:44 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 14, 2012, 11:29:41 PM

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-19432-ratlandia.H  :lulz:

Rats have always been a huge problem downtown,  them.

Ah hA the tail of 2 Sit E's
so yeah i remember the Rat Tail | i was years ago |
i was still picking b Berries along the Rail Road tracks
East bank | i had crossed the Steel (upper level}
there was no rail trail back in those days
a strange Mustard Yellow ship was tied to the grain
Elevators. When i got down on the RR tracks ||
they cross the river on the lower level of the Steel Bridge
i could see the (Um} mustard tied at the elevator
there was no rat guard on the bow line { very strange
as i walked along the RR track to get to the BB bushes
there were rats along the way. Strange Rats. rather
small and as if the were strangers to the place
Slow moving Kind of like in a drugged state.
for some reason i have always assumed since that day
that they were cargo off of that ship  & bad news . EoT  :fnord:  (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,32692.30/msg,1190146.html)


Whoa

I like your recursive references, there.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on July 19, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
Quote from: The Dead Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 08:32:48 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on July 12, 2012, 08:31:11 PM
Unions did it too, occupying factories so replacements couldn't get in. Didn't generally end well.

It worked like a fucking charm, some places.

Take occupying public schools, in Europe.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on July 30, 2012, 09:21:02 PM
Occupy - violence x discordia = miccheck

Exbit A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ-cEkHgggM
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pope Lecherous on July 31, 2012, 03:18:04 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 13, 2012, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: v3x on July 12, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
OCCUPY * MOVEMENT

PRIMARY GOALS: Eliminate Corporate Greed, man!

PRIMARY STRATEGY: Shit in public parks, be obnoxious to nearby businesses, and smell bad.

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: None

SPOKESPERSON: Anyone with a megaphone

REASON FOR FAILURE: Gee I wonder.

Almost perfect!  :lulz: all I'd add would be - OPPONENTS: Militarised global superpower with unlimited resources See above

there ya go
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on July 31, 2012, 10:07:19 PM
Quote from: Net on July 12, 2012, 02:15:33 AM
Quote from: The Dead Reverend Roger on July 12, 2012, 01:20:08 AM
Quote from: Net on July 11, 2012, 10:26:32 PM
Zucotti Park just got reoccupied.

Watch them mill around and listen to their horrendous singing/chants via a livestream here:

http://www.ustream.tv/occupyeye

I still believe that occupying a park is kinda missing the point.  It's of course better than sitting on the couch and bitching, but it doesn't seem annoying enough to be really effective.

I totally agree.

I'm currently trying to dissuade Portland Occutards from reoccupying with mixed success.

I met a couple of the "Alpha Camp" folks on MayDay. I got the distinct impression that they were currently "Occupying" the riverfront.*

There were only a few of them, but dollars to donuts if the media had paid *ANY FUCKING ATTENTION* to the demonstrations in front of the Justice Center, you can pretty much bet, they are the folks who would have been interviewed.

*translation: Homeless Junkies/crackheads that hang out by the river
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: the last yatto on August 07, 2012, 06:08:01 AM
There was those types too, I find them spirits without hope, focusing on the now. On night one the class clown of the group some reason found it funny as shit to ask people to lick his asshole, no one ever did it, but his bold questions ironicly turned other shy people into the group, share food, wine, warmth and such instead of just being some shandy town, it felt like we were building something... of course this was last fall and we all learned a lot. Some what we did or didn't like about others of our kind, myself in that huddled masses wanting to be free, I saw back to chanology and how glaroius those fags were... both culture waves seem to hit the shore, but they left things behind. I still have dreams of buying some land building a house and making a church in port townsend.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on September 17, 2012, 01:45:03 AM
New York Occupy-ish people doing it right:

http://dumpdimon.com/
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Telarus on December 30, 2012, 05:02:14 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on December 31, 2012, 09:05:50 PM
Hmmm

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/bombmaking_in_the_village_LoRDqNzP02SDZyfC1pLVXN

QuoteThe privileged daughter of a prominent city doctor, and her boyfriend — a Harvard grad and Occupy Wall Street activist — have been busted for allegedly having a cache of weapons and a bombmaking explosive in their Greenwich Village apartment.

Morgan Gliedman — who is nine-months pregnant — and her baby daddy, Aaron Greene, 31, also had instructions on making bombs, including a stack of papers with a cover sheet titled, "The Terrorist Encyclopedia,'' sources told The Post yesterday.

People who know Greene say his political views are "extreme," the sources said.

Cops found the stash in the couple's West Ninth Street home Saturday when they went there to look for Gliedman, 27, who was wanted for alleged credit-card theft.

I'm reserving some judgement on this one.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on January 29, 2013, 08:51:48 AM
Thomas Franks (http://www.thebaffler.com/past/to_the_precinct_station) has a piece on Occupy.  Key sentence:

QuoteAnd dear god why, after only a few months of occupying Zuccotti Park, did Occupiers feel they needed to launch their own journal of academic theory?

OK, here's some more:

QuoteMeasured in terms of words published per political results, on the other hand, OWS may be the most over-described historical event of all time. Nearly every one of these books makes sweeping claims for the movement's significance, its unprecedented and earth-shattering innovations. Just about everything it does is brilliantly, inventively, mind-blowingly people-empowering.

QuoteOccupy itself is pretty much gone. It was evicted from Zuccotti Park about two months after it began—an utterly predictable outcome for which the group seems to have made inadequate preparation. OWS couldn't bring itself to come up with a real set of demands until after it got busted, when it finally agreed on a single item. With the exception of some residual groups here and there populated by the usual activist types, OWS has today pretty much fizzled out. The media storm that once surrounded it has blown off to other quarters.

Pause for a moment and compare this record of accomplishment to that of Occupy's evil twin, the Tea Party movement, and the larger right-wing revival of which it is a part. Well, under the urging of this trumped-up protest movement, the Republican Party proceeded to win a majority in the U.S. House of Representatives; in the state legislatures of the nation it took some six hundred seats from the Democrats; as of this writing it is still purging Republican senators and congressmen deemed insufficiently conservative and has even succeeded in having one of its own named as the GOP's vice-presidential candidate.

QuoteThe building of a "community" in Zuccotti Park, for example, is a point of special emphasis. Noam Chomsky's thoughts epitomize the genre when he tells us that "one of the main achievements" of the movement "has been to create communities, real functioning communities of mutual support, democratic interchange," et cetera. The reason this is important, he continues, is because Americans "tend to be very isolated and neighborhoods are broken down, community structures have broken down, people are kind of alone." How building such "communities" helps us to tackle the power of high finance is left unexplained, as is Chomsky's implication that a city of eight million people, engaged in all the complexities of modern life, should learn how humans are supposed to live together by studying an encampment of college students.

QuoteWhether or not to have demands, you might recall, was something that Occupy protesters debated hotly among themselves in the days when Occupy actually occupied something. Reading these books a year later, however, that debate seems to have been consensed out of existence. Virtually none of the authors reviewed here will say forthrightly that the failure to generate demands was a tactical mistake. On the contrary: the quasi-official account of the episode (Occupying Wall Street) laughs off demands as a fetish object of literal-minded media types who stupidly crave hierarchy and chains of command. Chris Hedges tells us that demands were something required only by "the elites, and their mouthpieces in the media." Enlightened people, meanwhile, are supposed to know better; demands imply the legitimacy of the adversary, meaning the U.S. government and its friends, the banks. Launching a protest with no formal demands is thought to be a great accomplishment, a gesture of surpassing democratic virtue.

QuoteThe rhetoric in Zuccotti Park was also, of course, loudly majoritarian. But in practice, to judge by these books, OWS tasted overwhelmingly of one monotonous flavor: academia, with a subtle bouquet of career activism. Protestors are not always identified by occupation in these books, but when they are, they usually turn out to be college students, or recent graduates, or graduate students, or professors. Episodes like the Student Day of Action in November 2011 loom large in the story. Slogans and protest signs gravitate toward such timeless adolescent causes as self-expression and finding yourself ("Seek your own truth," reads a typical protest sign reproduced in one of these books). Occupiers are always said to be "creating a space" for things, a cliché of academia and the foundation world that I grew sick of hearing back in the nineties but that has lost none of its power as a simulation of profundity. And the episode as a whole has become an irresistible magnet for radical academics of the cultural-theory sort; indeed, for them it seems to have been a sort of holy episode, the moment they were waiting for, the putting into practice of their most treasured beliefs.

QuoteIf you look closely enough at Tea Party culture, you can even find traces of the Occupiers' refusal to make explicit demands. Consider movement inamorata Ayn Rand (a philosopher every bit as prolix as Judith Butler) and her 1957 magnum opus Atlas Shrugged, where "demands" are something that government makes on behalf of its lazy and unproductive constituents. Businessmen, by contrast, deal in contracts; they act only via the supposedly consensual relations of the market. As John Galt, the leader of the book's capital strike, explains in a lengthy speech to the American people Rand clearly loathed: "We have no demands to present to you, no terms to bargain about, no compromise to reach. You have nothing to offer us. We do not need you."

A strike with no demands? Wha-a-a-a? Why not? Because demands would imply the legitimacy of their enemy, the state. Rand's fake-sophisticated term for this is "the sanction of the victim." In the course of actualizing himself, the business tycoon—the "victim," in Rand's distorted worldview—is supposed to learn to withhold his blessing from the society that exploits him via taxes and regulations. Once enlightened, this billionaire is to have nothing to do with the looters and moochers of the liberal world; it is to be adversarial proceedings only.

So how do Rand's downtrodden 1 percent plan to prevail? By building a model community in the shell of the old, exactly as Occupy intended to do. Instead of holding assemblies in the park, however, her persecuted billionaires retreat to an uncharted valley in Colorado where they practice perfect noncoercive capitalism, complete with a homemade gold standard. A high-altitude Singapore, I guess. Then, when America collapses—an eventuality Rand describes in hundreds of pages of quasi-pornographic detail—the tycoons simply step forward to take over.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on January 29, 2013, 01:21:46 PM
Nice summary.  I do recall, however, that the Boston Occupy people did keep saying that they had demands, but no one would report on them.

But for some reason, other than student loan forgiveness, I can't remember what they were.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 12, 2014, 09:59:07 AM
LOL.

Occupy has fully jumped the shark.  It is now an expert shark jumper.  It charges fees for people to see it's shark jumping prowess.

http://pando.com/2014/02/07/occupy-wall-street-leader-now-works-for-google-wants-to-crowdfund-a-private-militia/

QuoteOver the last few days, Tunney has been causing a Twitter outrage tsunami after she took full control of the main Occupy Wall Street (OWS) Twitter account, claimed to be the founder of OWS and then proceeded to tweet out stream of ridiculous anarcho-corporatist garbage. She railed against welfare, described the government as "just another corporation," argued poverty was not a political problem but "an engineering problem" and told politicians to "get out of the way." She also debunked what she thought was a misconception: people thought OWS activists were protesting against concentrated corporate power, and that, she claims, is simply not true.

This just happened to coincide with her landing a job at Google, of course.

QuoteBut actually Tunney's claim that she founded Occupy is by far the least interesting part of the story. Buzzfeed's Gray missed a much weirder and sinister development: Tunney — a Google employee — has been pushing a crazy crusade to fund a paid mercenary protester army to fight against Wall Street — all via KickStarter.

No joke, grrrrls and bros! Tunney wants to crowdsource a private army revolution!

(http://pandodaily.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/twitter___justinetunney__if_we_raised__1m_to_kickstart____.jpg)

QuoteTunney's call to arms was seconded by Micah White, former editor of AdBusters who now runs a boutique social movement consulting business. White describes his business as a "social change consulting firm founded by the American creator of the Occupy Wall Street meme"  which "serves a hand-picked international clientele of social revolutionaries and movements."

Damn.  No wonder the Soviet Union turned out like shit.  Lenin simply didn't have the advice of a social movement consulting business.  That's where it all went wrong.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Junkenstein on February 12, 2014, 12:18:06 PM
What the actual fuck. So much dumb.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on February 12, 2014, 01:43:39 PM
I was expecting corporate absorption, but this is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Salty on February 12, 2014, 04:18:34 PM
 :lulz:

Ahhahahahhaha. Oh, now that is just magical.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 12, 2014, 08:49:34 PM
This....this is just....man, I don't even.  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Salty on February 12, 2014, 09:20:54 PM
Oh god I laughed so many times reading that, it's perfect, PERFECT.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on February 12, 2014, 09:52:51 PM
I'm as baffled as the rest of you guys.

I mean, I had certain expectations about the likely outcome of Occupy, but they were certainly nothing like this

I have to admit, I wasn't entirely sure what Justine meant by a "non-violent militia".  I mean, I know what a militia is, and I know what non-violence is, but I was unsure how you'd go about combining the two without underming the vital elements of one or the other.  So, like any person with a functioning brain stem, I decided to punch the words into Google and try and see if I could perhaps get some examples of this, or at least find out if the idea had some sort of heritage, history or meaning I was unaware of.

Fortunately, I found this War Nerd article (http://pando.com/2014/02/12/war-nerd-the-long-sleazy-history-behind-a-googlers-nonviolent-militia/), so I didn't have to bother with all that.

QuoteMy first reaction was like everyone else's: "nonviolent militia"? That makes as much sense as non-alcoholic vodka. But once you realize what Tunney  means by "nonviolent," her plan starts to seem less ridiculous and more grimly familiar. What Tunney means, essentially, is a substitute, a sacrificial victim who'll absorb cop violence that might otherwise be inflicted on more valuable persons, such as... oh, Justine Tunney, for example.

This is a very old  military strategy: using expendable, low-value troops to absorb enemy fire. The term used for these doomed pawns is "cannon fodder." So it wasn't so surprising to see Justine Tunney herself using that term in an email exchange Yasha quotes:
   
Quote"I'm not going to ask people to be cannon fodder against the NYPD without giving something in return"

Yep, I thought, that's all she meant by "nonviolent": someone to absorb violence rather than dish it out. Once you realize that, I'm sorry to say that Tunney's idea slots right into the cold, hard mainstream of military history.

QuoteBut sending low-value people to die has another benefit: It gets rid of troublesome elements, just as David solved the Uriah problem. Stalin's "penal battalions" were a classic example: a half-million Soviet citizens who were designated unreliable and shunted to suicide squads, often without even being issued any offensive weapon (Yasha Levine's grandfather, who survived a head wound that should have killed him, is one of the few Shtrafniki to survive the war).

These Penal units were given suicide missions like clearing minefields by running through them. They weren't supposed to kill the enemy; their job was to die, and in dying, clog the Germans' guns, use up their ammunition and detonate their mines so that the second and third waves, made up of more valuable Soviet citizens, had a chance.

QuoteTunney's only mistake was forgetting America's deep reverence for euphemism. If she'd recruited her cannon fodder quietly, hiding their desperation and greed, audiences would think they were real people, people of value. Now that Tunney, with typical Libertarian tact, has blurted their real motive and purpose, the footage of their maimed bodies wouldn't move anyone.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Junkenstein on February 12, 2014, 10:11:28 PM
"The charge of the light brigade" is just begging for a modern re-write really.

Half a block, half a block
half a block onward,
All in the valley of cops,
Rode the 200
Forward the hipsters!
Charge for the cuffs he said
Into the valley of cops
Rode the 200


Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Salty on February 12, 2014, 10:13:38 PM
I looked at The Milita by Gangstarr, but am afraid it's beyond my skill.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pæs on February 12, 2014, 10:14:33 PM
Surely "rode the 99 percent"?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Junkenstein on February 12, 2014, 10:16:14 PM
Only a hipster would pay money to charge at cops. I refuse to believe that 99% of the population is that dumb.

Despite having evidence to the contrary.

I mean, I'd go a little strange if that was true.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pæs on February 12, 2014, 10:39:01 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on February 12, 2014, 10:11:28 PM
"The charge of the light brigade" is just begging for a modern re-write really.

Half a block, half a block
half a block onward,
All in the valley of cops,
Rode the 200
Forward the hipsters!
Charge for the cuffs he said
Into the valley of cops
Rode the 200

'Forward, the hipsters!'
With audience unmoved.
For each among them knew
  That all was spectacle:
Theirs not to battle lethal,
Theirs not to wake the sheeple,
Their purpose was more deceitful:
Into the valley of cops
  Rode the Forgettable

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
  Police line impregnable;
Backed by only Tweeps and bloggers,
Rode ignorant cannon fodder,
Into the jaws of Death,
Against the fatcat robbers,
  Rode the Forgettable

Rais'd their fists into the sky
Rais'd all their slogans high,
Flailing at the coppers there,
Charging an army with
  All the world skeptical:
Plunged in the teary-smoke
Thro' the line they finally broke;
Hipster and Stoner
Reel'd from the baton-stroke
Captur'd and regrettable.
The occupation intact, but not
Not the Forgettable
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Pæs on February 12, 2014, 10:50:35 PM
Missed opportunity in changing the rhyme on "Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to occupy".
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Junkenstein on February 12, 2014, 10:51:20 PM
 :mittens: :lulz:

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on February 13, 2014, 03:54:50 AM
Holy shit. I was pretty sure that the history books had pretty much closed on Occupy. Turns out there's a whole lot of :popcorn: still to be had.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Junkenstein on February 13, 2014, 10:48:48 AM
I had this flash of the scene from the end of "V" only everyone was paid $5 to turn up, the police were much more resistant with military tactics and backing and there's blood everywhere.

I feel this is somewhat inevitable. Maybe not paid actually money though, but bitcoins or some shit. Protestcoins? Anoncoins?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on February 13, 2014, 01:19:59 PM
Quote from: Pæs on February 12, 2014, 10:50:35 PM
Missed opportunity in changing the rhyme on "Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to occupy".

:mittens:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 13, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 12, 2014, 09:59:07 AM
LOL.

Occupy has fully jumped the shark.  It is now an expert shark jumper.  It charges fees for people to see it's shark jumping prowess.

http://pando.com/2014/02/07/occupy-wall-street-leader-now-works-for-google-wants-to-crowdfund-a-private-militia/

QuoteOver the last few days, Tunney has been causing a Twitter outrage tsunami after she took full control of the main Occupy Wall Street (OWS) Twitter account, claimed to be the founder of OWS and then proceeded to tweet out stream of ridiculous anarcho-corporatist garbage. She railed against welfare, described the government as "just another corporation," argued poverty was not a political problem but "an engineering problem" and told politicians to "get out of the way." She also debunked what she thought was a misconception: people thought OWS activists were protesting against concentrated corporate power, and that, she claims, is simply not true.

This just happened to coincide with her landing a job at Google, of course.

QuoteBut actually Tunney's claim that she founded Occupy is by far the least interesting part of the story. Buzzfeed's Gray missed a much weirder and sinister development: Tunney — a Google employee — has been pushing a crazy crusade to fund a paid mercenary protester army to fight against Wall Street — all via KickStarter.

No joke, grrrrls and bros! Tunney wants to crowdsource a private army revolution!

(http://pandodaily.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/twitter___justinetunney__if_we_raised__1m_to_kickstart____.jpg)

QuoteTunney's call to arms was seconded by Micah White, former editor of AdBusters who now runs a boutique social movement consulting business. White describes his business as a "social change consulting firm founded by the American creator of the Occupy Wall Street meme"  which "serves a hand-picked international clientele of social revolutionaries and movements."

Damn.  No wonder the Soviet Union turned out like shit.  Lenin simply didn't have the advice of a social movement consulting business.  That's where it all went wrong.

WOW, INCREDIBLE!  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: And then Occupy went Libertarian, and it turned out that these vocal leaders aren't against corporate power, they're just pre-rich!

Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on June 07, 2014, 04:49:42 PM
This is deliciously awful

QuoteRead Mencius Moldbug.
— Justine Tunney (@JustineTunney) April 28, 2014 (https://twitter.com/JustineTunney/statuses/460666429897834496)

For those of you who don't know, Moldbug is one of the more prominent and longstanding "neoreactionary" writers.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 07, 2014, 08:33:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2014, 04:49:42 PM
This is deliciously awful

QuoteRead Mencius Moldbug.
— Justine Tunney (@JustineTunney) April 28, 2014 (https://twitter.com/JustineTunney/statuses/460666429897834496)

For those of you who don't know, Moldbug is one of the more prominent and longstanding "neoreactionary" writers.

Wow, oh wow. WOW.  :lol:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 08, 2014, 04:54:04 AM
So, its starting to look less like Occupy Wall Street and more like Occupy a Secure Compound Somewhere Out in the Woods?
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 08, 2014, 05:41:24 AM
Occupy Citadel.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: minuspace on June 08, 2014, 06:41:40 AM
Dangerous grounds...

Relatedly, my cuz just wants to share, I have no idea what he's saying:
99 % Occupy Everywhere - 2013 - xVid 605mB
httpx://billionuploads.com/8t10pptckb6a
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 26, 2015, 09:57:28 PM
In a desperate bid for relevance, Justine Tunney of "crowdsource a milita", self described "technofascist" fame has now jumped on the GamerGate bandwagon.  Using the Occupy Twitter account, no less

L

O

L

Let a million "it's about ethics in protesting about games while bankers steal the country from beneath our feet" memes flourish.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: LMNO on March 27, 2015, 11:44:09 AM
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pjw9lc-wgHM/VRVQiZZXZYI/AAAAAAAAB8g/0Lm802lBs1c/w716-h399-no/15%2B-%2B1)
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Cain on March 27, 2015, 12:59:04 PM
I suspect Tunney sympathised with the Stormcloaks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F4kpzGtAk4).
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 31, 2015, 04:38:53 AM
 :lulz:
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Don Coyote on March 31, 2015, 07:17:06 PM
I sided with the stormcloaks once and felt terrible.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on April 02, 2015, 06:12:07 AM
yea, i once made a character that i thought was gonna fight for the rebellion, but by the time i got to Windhelm, i had already taken a wife and home in Whiterun, which is the first thing they talk about invading. My character essentially showed up to be a rebel, heard Jarl Ulfric's plan to take whiterun, then backed away slowly.
Title: Re: Occupy
Post by: Reginald Ret on April 02, 2015, 01:17:38 PM
I joined the stormcloaks because the underdog usually has more enemies to kill.

I lost interest when I found an immortal general of the enemy. No fair!