When I was a kid, we all let the dogs out.

[Nast]

I meant that the act of running out into an intersection is retarded. And by retarded I meant stupid.

I know that kids don't/can't be expected to know better, hence the latter part.

[Freeky]

short version: no matter what, the culture of protection is totally fucking whack.

Depends.  Some of it makes sense (helmets on bicycles), and some is ridiculous (no tag on school grounds, to avoid skinned knees).

Please tell me thats a fucking joke.  No tag?  No wonder I see so many fat kids now, nobody lets them run anymore.

Do these schools just not have grass? We were told not to run on the blacktop (unless we were playing basketball or something) but were free to run around on the grass and wood chips.

What is this "GRASS" you speak of? Are they gray-brown, hard, and poky? We've got lots, if so.

And half crab grass, yes. Although in my bit of 1950s suburbia heaven, it was always semi-green except in the summer when the sun cooked the living shit out of it.

Green? Green... What's green? This is a desert, yo. We've got any shade of puke yellow and diarrhea brown you want, but I dunno what this "green" is.

[Doktor Howl]

I meant that the act of running out into an intersection is retarded. And by retarded I meant stupid.

I know that kids don't/can't be expected to know better, hence the latter part.

That's not stupidity, it's ignorance.

[Doktor Howl]

short version: no matter what, the culture of protection is totally fucking whack.

Depends.  Some of it makes sense (helmets on bicycles), and some is ridiculous (no tag on school grounds, to avoid skinned knees).

Please tell me thats a fucking joke.  No tag?  No wonder I see so many fat kids now, nobody lets them run anymore.

Do these schools just not have grass? We were told not to run on the blacktop (unless we were playing basketball or something) but were free to run around on the grass and wood chips.

What is this "GRASS" you speak of? Are they gray-brown, hard, and poky? We've got lots, if so.

And half crab grass, yes. Although in my bit of 1950s suburbia heaven, it was always semi-green except in the summer when the sun cooked the living shit out of it.

Green? Green... What's green? This is a desert, yo. We've got any shade of puke yellow and diarrhea brown you want, but I dunno what this "green" is.

Bridge on Alvernon.

[Freeky]

EEP! I forgot about that bridge. Gah.

[Nast]

I meant that the act of running out into an intersection is retarded. And by retarded I meant stupid.

I know that kids don't/can't be expected to know better, hence the latter part.

That's not stupidity, it's ignorance.

That's probably the right term, thanks.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I meant that the act of running out into an intersection is retarded. And by retarded I meant stupid.

I know that kids don't/can't be expected to know better, hence the latter part.

That's not stupidity, it's ignorance.

That's probably the right term, thanks.

I am going to go a step further and say that ignorance implies a missed opportunity to have learned. In children, however, it's a lack of teaching and/or a developmental inability to have learned, therefore it is naivete.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'd also like to clarify that my responses ITT have been more in the context of kids that are, say, 8 years old or older. It seems fairly obvious that it's a bad idea to let the kids roam freely before they're old enough to have learned some judgement and decision-making skills.

[E.O.T.]

I'd also like to clarify that my responses ITT have been more in the context of kids that are, say, 8 years old or older. It seems fairly obvious that it's a bad idea to let the kids roam freely before they're old enough to have learned some judgement and decision-making skills.

QUOTE

           of the day

OR

          spiritual guideline for the board

EITHER/OR/BOTH

          you choose. i say yes.

[Telarus]

This leads to an interesting contrast.

When does an "individual young human" have a better survival chance due to learned skills and mind/body development than, say, a "pack of semi-literate 9 year-olds".......

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This leads to an interesting contrast.

When does an "individual young human" have a better survival chance due to learned skills and mind/body development than, say, a "pack of semi-literate 9 year-olds".......

IME around 12. The mind changes a lot at that age.

[Telarus]

See, my first instinct was to say "pack of 12 year olds" but then I realized how dangerous that actually was and lowered my example, lol.

[Jenne]

There are some 12 year olds that don't have the sense of a box of hammers, and there are some that you'd trust your life, your other kids' lives, etc. with as well.

Kids, like adults, differ according to experience, ability to learn and maturity level.  That being said, it's a good idea as a teacher and parent to expect a certain level of understanding and skill level by that age.  12 is good.

[Reginald Ret]

I really don't agree with ECH. The 3-year-old who got hit by a car on my street because no one was watching him was no dumber/less fit than his older brothers who survived and reproduced freely and wantonly with various neighborhood girls... he was just less fortunate. Being molested by adult neighbors at age six doesn't make me unfit, nor did it teach me any valuable survival skills beyond those that cause me to keep a watchful eye on my kids... my experience taught me to keep them safe, ie. led directly to my own household's culture of protection.

What is with these imaginary grownups on the porches watching everyone? That didn't happen. They were inside, and they wanted us to leave them alone. Nobody was watching. That is my point. This culture of freedom we think we remember through the lens of nostalgia was actually a culture of carelessness. Dogs attacking kids? That totally happened, all the fucking time. A kid getting bit by a dog was a weekly occurrence. "It teaches kids not to mess with strange dogs", you might say, "It's a survival skill".

Bullshit. You can teach kids not to mess with strange dogs without letting your fucking kids and dogs run the neighborhood. Who thinks it's responsible, somehow, to just open your front door and let your dog out in the city? Sure, it's illegal, for one thing. But it's also just... careless. Not carefree. There's a difference.

So some moms are overprotective. Those moms in the "safe" suburbs... news flash; they've always been overprotective. There has never been a time when the affluent did not coddle their precious offspring. But most urban parents are not being overprotective, they're just not being as bloody fucking stupid as the previous generation was. Teaching the kids safety rules and sending them to the store in twos and threes starting around nine or ten, not putting them outside to play, unarmed with common sense or forewarned of danger, at five or six. Letting them walk to and from school in groups once they've demonstrated basic responsibility and awareness of the route, rather than taking them a couple of times and then sending them off alone to walk to first grade.

The old way was like throwing an unprepared five-year-old in the river to teach him to swim. The new way is more like taking them to the pool once a week until they feel comfortable enough with the water to try to paddle around a bit. Too soft, you think? Not primal enough? Well get off the fucking internet, walk away from your central heating and your car and your vaccines and your refrigerator, go outside, kill something with a rock and eat it raw.

Not all progress is bad.

I think we actually are mostly in agreement, since when I was a kid we were never just utterly thrown to the wolves to fend for ourselves without being taught some basic common sense first. Apparently I misunderstood the degree of protection that you were advocating. Or I may have been responding more to what seems like the typical histrionics of current-day american parenting rather than your specific point, I dunno. I still think the culture of protection is fucking retarded, but that doesn't mean I think kids shouldn't be given the tools to protect themselves however possible.

Seconded.


about biking helmets:

hmm i can't find what i was looking for(comparison between dutch bike accidents and american bike accidents compensated for population, bike usage(mileage for example). to see how helmet-use influences injury/death chances).
Oh well, here are some interesting statistics for the USA.
http://www.bhsi.org/stats.htm

Among children and youth age 0 to 19 in 2000:
    * Head injuries accounted for 62.6 percent of bicycle fatalities.
    * Collisions with motor vehicles accounted for 75.7 percent of bicycle fatalities.
    * 61.7 percent of motor vehicle collision deaths were due to head injury.

another interesting one.

Odds of Death vs. Injury in Crashes by Vehicle
Vehicle                          Deaths    Injuries    Odds
Bus                                  17            17,000    1 in 1000
Car, Station Wagon          21,969    2,378,000    1 in 108
Pickup, SUV, Van          10,224    768,000    1 in 75
Bicycle                          813            58,000    1 in 71
Large Truck                  717            31,000    1 in 43
Motorcycle, Motorbike          2,106            54,000    1 in 26
On Foot                          5,307            77,000    1 in 15
Data From NHTSA Traffic Safety Facts 1997

It seems that biking is saver than walking.

[Reginald Ret]

It seems fairly obvious that it's a bad idea to let the kids roam freely before they're old enough to have learned some judgement and decision-making skills.

QUOTE

           of the day

OR

          spiritual guideline for the board

EITHER/OR/BOTH

          you choose. i say yes.

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