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"Stupid wingnut says something stupid" thread

Started by Cain, December 08, 2009, 09:34:08 PM

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Jenne

So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

BabylonHoruv

Quote from: Jenne on June 17, 2011, 07:16:03 PM
So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

I'd certainly rather be beaten than spend a month in prison, let alone years.

Beating people may not be good, but it is better.
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

Merely by being alive, you make everyone just a little more miserable

-Dok Howl

Jenne

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 17, 2011, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: Jenne on June 17, 2011, 07:16:03 PM
So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

I'd certainly rather be beaten than spend a month in prison, let alone years.

Beating people may not be good, but it is better.

No, I can't agree there.  I think there's a better way to reform.

BabylonHoruv

Quote from: Jenne on June 17, 2011, 07:56:40 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 17, 2011, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: Jenne on June 17, 2011, 07:16:03 PM
So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

I'd certainly rather be beaten than spend a month in prison, let alone years.

Beating people may not be good, but it is better.

No, I can't agree there.  I think there's a better way to reform.

Better as in better than prison, which tends to cause people to come out worse than they went in.

There may be a better way out there, one that actually causes people to become less likely to commit crimes, which I'm not saying lashing would do.  Lashing would satisfy the public's desire for punishment while not serving as a training ground for criminality, not costing us vast quantities of money, and not stealing years from the lives of offenders and their families.

I just don't know what that better way is.
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

Merely by being alive, you make everyone just a little more miserable

-Dok Howl

Jenne

"Public's desire for punishment" is not what the so-called justice system should be about.  You're talking about mob rule, I'm talking about payment to society for going against the laws of the land to keep people safe from harm.

Harming them right the fuck back makes no sense.  Payment for restitution and rehabilitation should be the top priorities.

Not some fucked up sense of what makes the mob outside happiest.

Because they'll NEVER be satisfied.

BH, go look at some public hanging pix (there's some lovely postcards of them from the last century that were traded as novelties) and tell me that THIS is what we need to strive for.

Telarus

#590
Jenne,

I really hate to disappoint you, but our criminal justice system hasn't had "rehabilitation" as a goal for a long time now. (Having said that, I'm as pissed as you are about it.)

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/17/137236801/high-court-age-must-be-considered-in-interrogation

QuotePrison Sentences

In another criminal law decision, the court ruled unanimously that a federal judge cannot impose a longer prison sentence than what the sentencing guidelines permit simply to promote rehabilitation. In the case before the court, a judge imposed a 51-month sentence on Alejandra Tapia for smuggling illegal immigrants into the country. The sentence was at the outer edge of the sentencing guidelines, and the judge said he was imposing the longer sentence so that the defendant could qualify for all 500 hours of a federal drug-treatment program. The Supreme Court, however, said the judge went too far.

Writing for the court, Justice Kagan noted that for nearly a century federal law was based on the use of sentencing and parole to promote rehabilitation. But Congress, she added, abandoned that approach to focus more on retribution, deterrence and incapacitation. While rehabilitation may be considered, she said, Congress made clear that "imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting rehabilitation."
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Jenne

...so make it WORSE by beating people?

I know, let's compound the failure of every government "service" by making it fail HARDER.

Cuz that's how you WIN!

Besides...I never said that rehabilitation IS what prison reform is about, I said it's what it SHOULD be about.

Telarus

(Having said that, I'm as pissed as you are about it.)
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
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Doktor Howl

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 17, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
I'm in favor of the lash for the same reason as the original author.  Prison is expensive, cruel, and completely ineffective.

Just pull their fingernails off.  They'll never do it again.
Molon Lube

Jenne

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2011, 06:05:34 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 17, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
I'm in favor of the lash for the same reason as the original author.  Prison is expensive, cruel, and completely ineffective.

Just pull their fingernails off.  They'll never do it again.

Thank you.  For a while there I thought I was the lonely voice in the wilderness.

Cain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jun/17/tory-philip-davies-disabled-people-work

QuoteA Tory MP has sparked anger by suggesting that disabled people should work for less than the minimum wage to increase their chances of being taken on by employers.

Philip Davies told the Commons: "If an employer is looking at two candidates, one who has got disabilities and one who hasn't, and they have got to pay them both the same rate, I invite you to guess which one the employer is more likely to take on.

"Given that some of those people with a learning disability clearly, by definition, cannot be as productive in their work as somebody who has not got a disability of that nature, then it was inevitable that, given the employer was going to have to pay them both the same, they were going to take on the person who was going to be more productive, less of a risk.

"My view is that for some people the national minimum wage may be more of a hindrance than a help.

"If those people who consider it is being a hindrance to them, and in my view that's some of the most vulnerable people in society, if they feel that for a short period of time, taking a lower rate of pay to help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder, if they judge that that is a good thing, I don't see why we should be standing in their way."

The mental health charity Mind dismissed the Shipley MP's comments as "preposterous". Richard Hawkes, chief executive of disability charity Scope, said the MP had got it "seriously wrong". "This reveals a lot about how we value disabled people – and what we think they have to offer when it comes to work," he said. "In fact disabled people can contribute as much to a workplace as anyone else.

Davies has a history of making controversial statements out of sync with his party high command. A Conservative party spokesman said: "These comments do not reflect the views of the Conservative party and do not reflect government policy."

In the debate, Davies was challenged over his remarks by fellow Tory MP Edward Leigh, who told him: "Why actually should a disabled person work for less than £5.93 an hour. It is not a lot of money, is it?"

But Davies said criticism of his remarks was "leftwing hysteria".

Hopefully the Tory hard right will rally around him, and we'll get this fight between the wets and nutters I've long been waiting for.

Telarus

Hmm, one of the 'so called conservatives' in Oregon tried to float that line of bullshit (Lets Undercut the Min Wage! It'll Be Great For Everybody!), but it was youth (under18) and waitresses that were targeted as a demographic. Interesting synchronicity, and this one really, really brings out the hypocrisy.

:argh!:
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

BabylonHoruv

Quote from: Jenne on June 18, 2011, 06:21:44 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2011, 06:05:34 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 17, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
I'm in favor of the lash for the same reason as the original author.  Prison is expensive, cruel, and completely ineffective.

Just pull their fingernails off.  They'll never do it again.

Thank you.  For a while there I thought I was the lonely voice in the wilderness.

You seem to be interpreting me as in favor of the lash AND prison.  I'm in favor of the lash INSTEAD of prison.  Because I know there is no way we can simply abandon punishment.

A system of restitution would be better still, but unlikely.
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

Merely by being alive, you make everyone just a little more miserable

-Dok Howl

Don Coyote

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 17, 2011, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: Jenne on June 17, 2011, 07:16:03 PM
So beating someone's better?

Um, no.

And "fixing" prison's problems with beatings is NOT the way to fix it.  It's going backwards.

I'd certainly rather be beaten than spend a month in prison, let alone years.

Beating people may not be good, but it is better.

So you advocate a punishment that you would prefer done to you?

Think about that for a second.

Punishments aren't supposed to be enjoyable.