The Trans Discussion

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

To me it just seems like if people Cotard's Syndrome tried to tell me about how there's a difference being biologically dead and being dead from a sociological prespective, and that the latter was intrinsically more important.

[Cain]

You just realised you compared transgender people to the mentally ill there, right?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

To me it just seems like if people Cotard's Syndrome tried to tell me about how there's a difference being biologically dead and being dead from a sociological prespective, and that the latter was intrinsically more important.

So you're saying that people with Cotard's Syndrome aren't experiencing a real syndrome? Because, mind you, people who are transgender are generally not trying to say that their bodies are ACTUALLY the opposite sex, they are saying that they FEEL LIKE their gender is aligned with that normally ascribed to the opposite sex.

I am starting to suspect that you don't actually grasp the concept of gender-as-social-expectation at all.

Very likely because you have decided not to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You just realised you compared transgender people to the mentally ill there, right?

The mentally ill due to severe brain damage, in fact.

So at this point, he appears to be claiming that transgendered people do in fact have a neurobiological disorder.

This seems indicative that he doesn't even understand his own argument.

[Doktor Howl]

You just realised you compared transgender people to the mentally ill there, right?

Of course he realizes it.  He doesn't seem ashamed of his bigotry at all.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You just realised you compared transgender people to the mentally ill there, right?

Of course he realizes it.  He doesn't seem ashamed of his bigotry at all.

My guess is that they make him personally uncomfortable.

They make a lot of people uncomfortable, when they haven't been exposed to people who aren't locked into rigid gender roles before. So do gays and lesbians and professional women and stay at home dads. Most of us grow up and get over it.

[Doktor Howl]

You just realised you compared transgender people to the mentally ill there, right?

Of course he realizes it.  He doesn't seem ashamed of his bigotry at all.

My guess is that they make him personally uncomfortable.

They make a lot of people uncomfortable, when they haven't been exposed to people who aren't locked into rigid gender roles before. So do gays and lesbians and professional women and stay at home dads. Most of us grow up and get over it.

Yep.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

I am starting to suspect that you don't actually grasp the concept of gender-as-social-expectation at all.

Not really. Not in this context. I grasp the concept to a certain extent, but what I can grasp of that social expectation has always, at least in the western world, been inextricably bound up with physical sex. If you really believe that society at large can be induced to accept such a sweeping wholesale alteration to this concept, why would you root for it to merely be changed instead of done away with entirely.

Furthermore, while this change would make gender more egalitarian, and egalitarianism is always good, it would also rob this already effectively useless and contemptible social convention of the one meager and base shred of semi-usefulness that it retains, which is to inform people if a potential sexual partner has the type of genitals they are interested in. Base and superficial though this is it is the one -admittedly small- piece of positive value that the social convention of gender possesses and if it was to be removed and if convention is capable of being altered, than why not just alter the convention by doing away with it. Plus, doing away with it is if anything even more egalitarian.

[Doktor Howl]

I am starting to suspect that you don't actually grasp the concept of gender-as-social-expectation at all.

Not really. Not in this context. I grasp the concept to a certain extent, but what I can grasp of that social expectation has always, at least in the western world, been inextricably bound up with physical sex. If you really believe that society at large can be induced to accept such a sweeping wholesale alteration to this concept, why would you root for it to merely be changed instead of done away with entirely.

Furthermore, while this change would make gender more egalitarian, and egalitarianism is always good, it would also rob this already effectively useless and contemptible social convention of the one meager and base shred of semi-usefulness that it retains, which is to inform people if a potential sexual partner has the type of genitals they are interested in. Base and superficial though this is it is the one -admittedly small- piece of positive value that the social convention of gender possesses and if it was to be removed and if convention is capable of being altered, than why not just alter the convention by doing away with it. Plus, doing away with it is if anything even more egalitarian.

How do you propose to do away with it?

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

I am starting to suspect that you don't actually grasp the concept of gender-as-social-expectation at all.

Not really. Not in this context. I grasp the concept to a certain extent, but what I can grasp of that social expectation has always, at least in the western world, been inextricably bound up with physical sex. If you really believe that society at large can be induced to accept such a sweeping wholesale alteration to this concept, why would you root for it to merely be changed instead of done away with entirely.

Furthermore, while this change would make gender more egalitarian, and egalitarianism is always good, it would also rob this already effectively useless and contemptible social convention of the one meager and base shred of semi-usefulness that it retains, which is to inform people if a potential sexual partner has the type of genitals they are interested in. Base and superficial though this is it is the one -admittedly small- piece of positive value that the social convention of gender possesses and if it was to be removed and if convention is capable of being altered, than why not just alter the convention by doing away with it. Plus, doing away with it is if anything even more egalitarian.

How do you propose to do away with it?

Through the same activism based means by which it's being altered.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am starting to suspect that you don't actually grasp the concept of gender-as-social-expectation at all.

Not really. Not in this context. I grasp the concept to a certain extent, but what I can grasp of that social expectation has always, at least in the western world, been inextricably bound up with physical sex. If you really believe that society at large can be induced to accept such a sweeping wholesale alteration to this concept, why would you root for it to merely be changed instead of done away with entirely.

Furthermore, while this change would make gender more egalitarian, and egalitarianism is always good, it would also rob this already effectively useless and contemptible social convention of the one meager and base shred of semi-usefulness that it retains, which is to inform people if a potential sexual partner has the type of genitals they are interested in. Base and superficial though this is it is the one -admittedly small- piece of positive value that the social convention of gender possesses and if it was to be removed and if convention is capable of being altered, than why not just alter the convention by doing away with it. Plus, doing away with it is if anything even more egalitarian.

Social roles will always exist. Unplugging gender from sex is essentially the same thing as relegating it to a non-sex-dependent social role, so all you're doing, ultimately, is making a pointless semantic argument.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Functionally, the difference between "Let's separate gender from sex" and "Let's do away with gender altogether" is nothing.

Unless you also intend to do away with the attendant behaviors, in which case you don't have any people left because all gender roles have done is take the naturally-occurring behaviors of human beings and segregated them according to sex.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

Functionally, the difference between "Let's separate gender from sex" and "Let's do away with gender altogether" is nothing.

Unless you also intend to do away with the attendant behaviors, in which case you don't have any people left because all gender roles have done is take the naturally-occurring behaviors of human beings and segregated them according to sex.

As it is, the attendant behaviors are clustered together in semi-rigid groups. I would break these groups up as well, so that people could mix and match. Basically aiming for a situation where genderqueer (or something closely resembling it) and society-at-large become largely indistinguishable from each other.

[President Television]

Functionally, the difference between "Let's separate gender from sex" and "Let's do away with gender altogether" is nothing.

Unless you also intend to do away with the attendant behaviors, in which case you don't have any people left because all gender roles have done is take the naturally-occurring behaviors of human beings and segregated them according to sex.

As it is, the attendant behaviors are clustered together in semi-rigid groups. I would break these groups up as well, so that people could mix and match. Basically aiming for a situation where genderqueer and society-at-large become largely indistinguishable from each other.

Big talk for someone with absolutely no control over said behaviors and groups.

On an unrelated note, is it transphobic to not mention trans people at all? I ask because about a week ago, I was informed on Facebook that this was the case.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

Functionally, the difference between "Let's separate gender from sex" and "Let's do away with gender altogether" is nothing.

Unless you also intend to do away with the attendant behaviors, in which case you don't have any people left because all gender roles have done is take the naturally-occurring behaviors of human beings and segregated them according to sex.

As it is, the attendant behaviors are clustered together in semi-rigid groups. I would break these groups up as well, so that people could mix and match. Basically aiming for a situation where genderqueer and society-at-large become largely indistinguishable from each other.

Big talk for someone with absolutely no control over said behaviors and groups.

I never said I had any influence. I'm just saying that I think the people who do seem to be changing things are squandering their influence making an unusually difficult but ultimately minor change to a system that needs a sweeping overhaul. Merely reforming gender norms is like doing detailed cosmetic surgery on a tumor.