Define "metal".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Isn't soul music called that because it has its roots in gospel singing in black churches in the South? Which in turn has its roots in African spirituals? Hence the "soul"?

I don't think it's about "black music having emotion", I think it's referring to the literal origins of a genre. And if music "has soul" it refers to discernible traces of or audible references to that origin, nothing to do with the race of the musician.

[AFK]

Also I believe that was the same time period where Suicidal Tendencies started up their "funk metal" alter ego, Infectious Grooves.  Which was pretty awful.  Mike Muir just doesn't sound right doing anything other than shout-singing. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Isn't soul music called that because it has its roots in gospel singing in black churches in the South? Which in turn has its roots in African spirituals? Hence the "soul"?

I don't think it's about "black music having emotion", I think it's referring to the literal origins of a genre. And if music "has soul" it refers to discernible traces of or audible references to that origin, nothing to do with the race of the musician.

I always thought that was "Gospel", but I am hardly an expert.

[AFK]

Well "soul" can have different connotations in this discussion.  There is "Soul" as a descriptor of certain forms of music.  But there is "soul" as in whether something has depth and isn't superficial.

[LMNO]

Isn't soul music called that because it has its roots in gospel singing in black churches in the South? Which in turn has its roots in African spirituals? Hence the "soul"?

I don't think it's about "black music having emotion", I think it's referring to the literal origins of a genre. And if music "has soul" it refers to discernible traces of or audible references to that origin, nothing to do with the race of the musician.

Historically, yes.  Gospel singers replaced "Jesus" with "Baby" or some secular equivalent in their songs, and boom! People started buying their records.

However, by the time Funkadelic got hold of it for "What is Soul?" in 1970, the definition had expanded somewhat.

[iSPEAKonlyFORthe23]

I can't tell what it IS, anymore.  What is called metal now doesn't seem very metal.

Being from Norway, I'm somewhat of an expert on metal. And anything softer than norwegian death metal isn't metal at all.

Oh, and I'm a dj too, usually I play techno, but this one time I played rock at Turbonegro's 10 or 20th year anniversary.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I can't tell what it IS, anymore.  What is called metal now doesn't seem very metal.

Being from Norway, I'm somewhat of an expert on metal. And anything softer than norwegian death metal isn't metal at all.

Oh, and I'm a dj too, usually I play techno, but this one time I played rock at Turbonegro's 10 or 20th year anniversary.

I wonder, would you happen to be somewhat outlandish? that would be delightful. You know, if you were ...

[Mangrove]

Well "soul" can have different connotations in this discussion.  There is "Soul" as a descriptor of certain forms of music.  But there is "soul" as in whether something has depth and isn't superficial.

2nded.

I think there's a number of ways in which the word 'soul' gets used. Obviously, it is the name for a particular genre of music 'soul'. However, as a musician I've noticed that there is usage of the word which brings up a stereotype regarding (so called) 'black' vs 'white' music.

The stereotype is essentially that 'black' popular music culture is cooler, hipper, looser and has more emotional heft (soul) than 'white' music which is restrained, uptight and less expressive (not soul). As such, there's plenty of Caucasian musicians who believe they play or aspire to sound what they think of as 'black'.

Check out the movie 'Crossroads' (with Ralph Macchio, not Britney). Young white kid at Julliard playing classical guitar but obsesses over country blues music in his spare time. He tracks down the legendary 'Willie Brown' and busts him out of a nursing home to go on a journey down south into the delta to learn the secrets of Robert Johnson and his 'lost song'. The whole movie is about Ralph Macchio struggling to gain musical & cultural acceptance from African Americans. "See? Look how cool I play...I'm just like you, please love and validate me!"

The movie has a supernatural twist. Willie Brown sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for his 15 minutes of fame in the world of blues music. Ralphie steps up to the challenge to win back the contract by battling Steve Vai in a head-cutting guitar jam contest.

Ralph plays bluesy bottleneck slide riffs (played by Arlen Roth) while Steve Vai was basically being himself. Well, lo and behold Vai comes up with a lick so brain melting, Ralph's confidence is shaken - he might not win! ERHMAHGERD! And what does he do? Why, he puts down his glass guitar slide and hammers out a classical piece which had some Paganini runs in it. Vai in his role of 'Jack Butler' cannot copy the lick and thus Faustian pact annulled, Willie saved and devil unhappy but, a deal's a deal, right?

So for 99% of the movie, Ralph Macchio wants to be the ultimate blues man, until his ass gets in trouble when he meets the shred monster so he plays [ahem] so called 'difficult, proper music' and wins. [It's stupid...not as stupid as that movie 'Soul Man' about the kid who sports black face to get into college. Of course, none of the real African Americans notice..wtf...]

Contrary to the stereotype we have Wynton Marsalis who plays classical music. Jimi Hendrix idolized Bob Dylan, Charlie Parker wanted to hang with Stravinsky & Miles Davis did some of his best work with Gil Evans (who was white and Canadian). And then there's dear old Elvis who popularized 'Hound Dog', a cover of a song originally done by Big Mamma Thornton but was written by Lieber & Stoller who were Jewish. Jazz musicians love playing songs by Cole Porter who was white and gay and also works by Billy Strayhorn who was black and gay.

The reality shows a great deal of complexity and diversity. However, there's still an idea in pop culture which equates ethnicity to authenticity. It's a bullshit idea but it's there. It's why people are like "Wow...can you believe Eminem raps so well..and he's WHITE!???"  One of my (black) friends (lol, love a cliche) thinks the sun rises and sets on Coldplay. Some of his other (white) friends thinks that makes him less African-American.

[AFK]

I can't tell what it IS, anymore.  What is called metal now doesn't seem very metal.

Being from Norway, I'm somewhat of an expert on metal. And anything softer than norwegian death metal isn't metal at all.

Oh, and I'm a dj too, usually I play techno, but this one time I played rock at Turbonegro's 10 or 20th year anniversary.

Finnish metal > Norwegian metal


Just sayin

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Well "soul" can have different connotations in this discussion.  There is "Soul" as a descriptor of certain forms of music.  But there is "soul" as in whether something has depth and isn't superficial.

2nded.

I think there's a number of ways in which the word 'soul' gets used. Obviously, it is the name for a particular genre of music 'soul'. However, as a musician I've noticed that there is usage of the word which brings up a stereotype regarding (so called) 'black' vs 'white' music.

The stereotype is essentially that 'black' popular music culture is cooler, hipper, looser and has more emotional heft (soul) than 'white' music which is restrained, uptight and less expressive (not soul). As such, there's plenty of Caucasian musicians who believe they play or aspire to sound what they think of as 'black'.

Check out the movie 'Crossroads' (with Ralph Macchio, not Britney). Young white kid at Julliard playing classical guitar but obsesses over country blues music in his spare time. He tracks down the legendary 'Willie Brown' and busts him out of a nursing home to go on a journey down south into the delta to learn the secrets of Robert Johnson and his 'lost song'. The whole movie is about Ralph Macchio struggling to gain musical & cultural acceptance from African Americans. "See? Look how cool I play...I'm just like you, please love and validate me!"

The movie has a supernatural twist. Willie Brown sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for his 15 minutes of fame in the world of blues music. Ralphie steps up to the challenge to win back the contract by battling Steve Vai in a head-cutting guitar jam contest.

Ralph plays bluesy bottleneck slide riffs (played by Arlen Roth) while Steve Vai was basically being himself. Well, lo and behold Vai comes up with a lick so brain melting, Ralph's confidence is shaken - he might not win! ERHMAHGERD! And what does he do? Why, he puts down his glass guitar slide and hammers out a classical piece which had some Paganini runs in it. Vai in his role of 'Jack Butler' cannot copy the lick and thus Faustian pact annulled, Willie saved and devil unhappy but, a deal's a deal, right?

So for 99% of the movie, Ralph Macchio wants to be the ultimate blues man, until his ass gets in trouble when he meets the shred monster so he plays [ahem] so called 'difficult, proper music' and wins. [It's stupid...not as stupid as that movie 'Soul Man' about the kid who sports black face to get into college. Of course, none of the real African Americans notice..wtf...]

Contrary to the stereotype we have Wynton Marsalis who plays classical music. Jimi Hendrix idolized Bob Dylan, Charlie Parker wanted to hang with Stravinsky & Miles Davis did some of his best work with Gil Evans (who was white and Canadian). And then there's dear old Elvis who popularized 'Hound Dog', a cover of a song originally done by Big Mamma Thornton but was written by Lieber & Stoller who were Jewish. Jazz musicians love playing songs by Cole Porter who was white and gay and also works by Billy Strayhorn who was black and gay.

The reality shows a great deal of complexity and diversity. However, there's still an idea in pop culture which equates ethnicity to authenticity. It's a bullshit idea but it's there. It's why people are like "Wow...can you believe Eminem raps so well..and he's WHITE!???"  One of my (black) friends (lol, love a cliche) thinks the sun rises and sets on Coldplay. Some of his other (white) friends thinks that makes him less African-American.

Congratulations, you've noticed that fucked-up racial dynamics with deep historical roots exist.

[LMNO]

Sheesh, Nigel, I think my snark meter just broke. I liked Mang's post-- sure, it covers establishe themes, but I thought his examples (especially about Hound Dog, et al) were fresh and interesting.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sheesh, Nigel, I think my snark meter just broke. I liked Mang's post-- sure, it covers establishe themes, but I thought his examples (especially about Hound Dog, et al) were fresh and interesting.

REALLY??? "Fresh" and "Interesting"???

Damn, it must be nice to be white.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I mean, seriously, it's nice that you guys are noticing this and thinking and talking about it, and I am hopeful that maybe you will even consider the centuries of backstory that might lead to the cultural perception that "white people music" is structured, disciplined and uptight, and that "black people music" is emotional, relaxed, and spontaneous, and the implications of such perceptions.

[EK WAFFLR]

I can't tell what it IS, anymore.  What is called metal now doesn't seem very metal.

Being from Norway, I'm somewhat of an expert on metal. And anything softer than norwegian death metal isn't metal at all.

Oh, and I'm a dj too, usually I play techno, but this one time I played rock at Turbonegro's 10 or 20th year anniversary.

Because all Norwegians have doctorates in metalogy. Yeah.

No.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I can't tell what it IS, anymore.  What is called metal now doesn't seem very metal.

Being from Norway, I'm somewhat of an expert on metal. And anything softer than norwegian death metal isn't metal at all.

Oh, and I'm a dj too, usually I play techno, but this one time I played rock at Turbonegro's 10 or 20th year anniversary.

Because all Norwegians have doctorates in metalogy. Yeah.

No.

Of course they do. This is the most metal thing in the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914