Common Walls Debate

[Doktor Howl]

Good point. I think I'm a little more sensitive about it than I should be because this is the second time I've accidentally sparked an argument between TGRR and Cram

Those two spags would argue if you hanged them with a brand new rope.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think gogira has a point. I dont think were less creative just that board meltdowns direct all of the energy elsewhere.

That may be so, but what's someone supposed to do if something goes down regarding something they're involved with that they're not comfortable with?  Especially when they have good reason to feel uncomfortable?  Suck it up?

I'm not one for taking my ball and going home because it's pointless and dumb and the people who say stuff like that are always returning to normal posting habits pretty quickly, but if that's what you're saying then I think I really will be avoiding collab projects.  And that makes me sadface and upset.

The thing is, what people are yelling about here is stuff that's WAAAAAY before my time, and obviously has nothing to do with the Your Very Own Holy Book^TM in any way, besides being triggered by one of the posts in that thread. If you've got business yelling at people about things, then the yelling needs to happen. It just shouldn't happen to the detriment of new projects that are unrelated to the drama.

Ideally, it would have been nice to see someone attached to Common Walls come in and tell Cram that he was stepping on toes, and could he maybe not do that, and then have this big explosion in a call out thread somewhere else so the rest of the productive thread could have moved on.

Uh

That's exactly what I did. In my first post in this thread.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Pardon me... my second post.

I explained my reasons for my reaction, and my reasons still stand. Including the incident that occurred last week, which is not at all before your time, LG.

There is this matter of principles and ethics, and I made the decision when I saw that last week that should Cram make any attempt to co-opt or give himself any reason to feel entitled to any pet project of mine, I would not remain silent. For one thing, as much as I do like him and appreciate his initiative and drive, I think Cram has a right to know how his inappropriately proprietary behavior towards other people's work has affected how people view him. I do not know how many times people here, including Cain, have said "Do not use my work without permission", but little things like lifting someone's poem for your own website without asking are really, actually, super uncool and disrespectful, even (or perhaps especially) if that person is an insider here and not a random Facebook discordian.

I would really appreciate it, and would have a lot more trust about posting my work here, if more people were willing to speak up and say that it's not cool to use or sell other people's work without permission. I would really like it if that was the consensus here. If that's not going to be the consensus, and the consensus is that I'm making much too big of a deal about it, then I am uncomfortable participating in group projects unless they have a clear leader, and that leader is one of the few people here who HAS spoken up about respecting other people's work. I want to know that for them that principle is clear, and not muddy or confused.

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't know anything about any of what most of this thread seems to be about, but I do know that I don't think it's cool to use or sell anyone's work without their permission. That should be the default community standard here.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know anything about any of what most of this thread seems to be about, but I do know that I don't think it's cool to use or sell anyone's work without their permission. That should be the default community standard here.

Good; I was already assuming I could add you to my list of people I'm comfortable collaborating with, but it's good to see you spell it out.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I don't know anything about any of what most of this thread seems to be about, but I do know that I don't think it's cool to use or sell anyone's work without their permission. That should be the default community standard here.

I don't think that was ever a question?

I was definitely very slack about this in the past, but since joining the community I've been trying to track down authors and add proper citations to the things I've made based on their preferences, and I've asked before starting any new things. And I would never try to sell someone else's stuff. Ever.

[EK WAFFLR]

I don't know anything about any of what most of this thread seems to be about, but I do know that I don't think it's cool to use or sell anyone's work without their permission. That should be the default community standard here.

So much this.

[Placid Dingo]

I don't know anything about any of what most of this thread seems to be about, but I do know that I don't think it's cool to use or sell anyone's work without their permission. That should be the default community standard here.

So much this.

What I'm Feeling is getting people frustrated (at any cost, me) is that nobody is disagreeig with this.

It would have been so easy to say 'hey Cram, cool that you're keen but don't forget that this is LMNO/Nigels baby, and they really get to make the call on when it's ready.'

I mean even IF Cram was about to try to swoop in and take over (which I don't believe) would this have been any worse a way to say it? I think both halves of the ShrodingerCram (the half taking over the project and the half not) would have just backed off.

I know that maybe you could say that we should be able to understand  where people come from but we have a track record of being very very bad at that, and devolving into screeching when a little diplomacy would have gone a long way.

Nigel, I appreciate what your concerns are, and while I have different standards for how people use my work, I'm very aware of the need for autonomy a individual has over their own work. But theres a lot of ways to avoid this mess, and if you don't like PMing (which again is cool) then could you please maybe tone down the inflamitory factor in things like this?

[Freeky]

I don't know anything about any of what most of this thread seems to be about, but I do know that I don't think it's cool to use or sell anyone's work without their permission. That should be the default community standard here.

So much this.

What I'm Feeling is getting people frustrated (at any cost, me) is that nobody is disagreeig with this.

It would have been so easy to say 'hey Cram, cool that you're keen but don't forget that this is LMNO/Nigels baby, and they really get to make the call on when it's ready.'

I mean even IF Cram was about to try to swoop in and take over (which I don't believe) would this have been any worse a way to say it? I think both halves of the ShrodingerCram (the half taking over the project and the half not) would have just backed off.

I know that maybe you could say that we should be able to understand  where people come from but we have a track record of being very very bad at that, and devolving into screeching when a little diplomacy would have gone a long way.

Nigel, I appreciate what your concerns are, and while I have different standards for how people use my work, I'm very aware of the need for autonomy a individual has over their own work. But theres a lot of ways to avoid this mess, and if you don't like PMing (which again is cool) then could you please maybe tone down the inflamitory factor in things like this?

Whoa, dick fucking move, sir.  I applaud the complete and total lack of reading comprehension that it must have taken for you to come to the conclusion that it's all Nigel's fault.

[LMNO]

Freeky, he didn't say that. At the risk of getting involved, a nuance has developed, and I believe Nigel may have said that her reaction in the relevant incidence may have been over the top.

Please don't take the position that he is dismissing a strong woman's voice. Because I think that he is simply pointing back to TGRRs post in Waiting Room.

[Placid Dingo]

Shit, thanks LMNO.

I didn't realise that that discussion had happened as such which leaves me as the dicknozzle poking a dead argument. I apologise.

I only named names because I was talking about a specific instance and felt it would be cowardly to discuss the comment without having the respect to address the poster directly.

If it hadn't been quoted I'd redact the post, but I know that's frowned upon so I'll leave it.

[Freeky]

I, in turn, am sorry for jumping on you.  I'm quite ready to let this drop, only I felt it would be disloyal to not say something, because Nigel wasn't the only one being inflammatory.

[LMNO]

I truly think this has become toxic. Everyone apologizes to everyone, because we all got overly monkey, regardless of initial intentions.

[Placid Dingo]

Freeky I see how I worded things poorly.
I mean (and this really shouldn't, thinking about it now have been addressed to anyone specifically) that its nicer when peoples comments aren't worded in a way that people will predictably be upset by, not that Nigel or anyone else is responsible for inflaming things.

Edit; just saw your comment. Thanks, and agreed. I don't know why I jumped into this mess so late.

[Freeky]

I truly think this has become toxic. Everyone apologizes to everyone, because we all got overly monkey, regardless of initial intentions.

There yer go agin, spoialin mah funnin.  Ptui.


(You're right, though.)