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Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!

Started by LMNO, September 12, 2012, 07:52:06 PM

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LMNO

In light of several discussions that got out of hand, I'm pretty much just going to cut and paste this entire blog post:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/85h/better_disagreement/

__________________________________________________________________________

Now that most communication is remote rather than face-to-face, people are comfortable disagreeing more often. How, then, can we disagree well? If the goal is intellectual progress, those who disagree should aim not for name-calling but for honest counterargument.

To be more specific, we might use a disagreement hierarchy. Below is the hierarchy proposed by Paul Graham (with DH7 added by Black Belt Bayesian).



DH0: Name-Calling. The lowest form of disagreement, this ranges from "u r fag!!!" to "He's just a troll" to "The author is a self-important dilettante."

DH1: Ad Hominem. An ad hominem ('against the man') argument won't refute the original claim, but it might at least be relevant. If a senator says we should raise the salary of senators, you might reply: "Of course he'd say that; he's a senator." That might be relevant, but it doesn't refute the original claim: "If there's something wrong with the senator's argument, you should say what it is; and if there isn't, what difference does it make that he's a senator?"

DH2: Responding to Tone. At this level we actually respond to the writing rather than the writer, but we're responding to tone rather than substance. For example: "It's terrible how flippantly the author dimisses theology."

DH3: Contradiction. Graham writes: "In this stage we finally get responses to what was said, rather than how or by whom. The lowest form of response to an argument is simply to state the opposing case, with little or no supporting evidence." For example: "It's terrible how flippantly the author dismisses theology. Theology is a legitimate inquiry into truth."

DH4: Counterargument. Finally, a form of disagreement that might persuade! Counterargument is "contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence." Still, counterargument is often directed at a minor point, or turns out to be an example of two people talking past each other, as in the parable about a tree falling in the forest.

DH5: Refutation. In refutation, you quote (or paraphrase) a precise claim or argument by the author and explain why the claim is false, or why the argument doesn't work. With refutation, you're sure to engage exactly what the author said, and offer a direct counterargument with evidence and reason.

DH6: Refuting the Central Point. Graham writes: "The force of a refutation depends on what you refute. The most powerful form of disagreement is to refute someone's central point." A refutation of the central point may look like this: "The author's central point appears to be X. For example, he writes 'blah blah blah.' He also writes 'blah blah.' But this is wrong, because (1) argument one, (2) argument two, and (3) argument three."

DH7: Improve the Argument, then Refute Its Central Point. Black Belt Bayesian writes: "If you're interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents' arguments. But if you're interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents' arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter; you [also] must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its corpse."


Having names for biases and fallacies can help us notice and correct them, and having labels for different kinds of disagreement can help us zoom in on the parts of a disagreement that matter.

_____________________________________________________________


This won't fix what's already been broken, and this probably won't stop all the flare-ups we have, but at least we have some sort of framework when things start getting out of hand.

The Good Reverend Roger

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 12, 2012, 07:58:12 PM
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

I have C&P'd that for further reminders.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bu🤠ns


P3nT4gR4m

Haha! Bookmarked for the next time I'm accused of being subhuman for having the audacity to not agree with some dumbfuck logical fallacy :evil:


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Don't forget, however, that all of those are legitimate tactics for 'erisian debate'  :lulz:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Verbal Mike

Paul Graham rocks. I have never regretting starting to read an essay of his, and they can be long and go on all kinds of tangents.
There's a graphical representation (of Graham's original version, without level 7), which might be a good emoticon. :lulz:
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on September 13, 2012, 09:50:13 AM
Don't forget, however, that all of those are legitimate mandatory tactics for 'erisian debate'  :lulz:

:lulz:

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Cain

Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 12, 2012, 08:05:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 12, 2012, 07:58:12 PM
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

This is the correct motorcycle.

I'm glad everyone is starting to see why myself and Kai and LMNO read the place obsessively.

Incidentally, in many ways DH7 is the Ultimate Troll, especially if you do it well enough to cause cognitive dissonance in the person you are arguing with, and cause them to disagree with their former comrades.

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2012, 11:39:26 AM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 12, 2012, 08:05:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 12, 2012, 07:58:12 PM
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

This is the correct motorcycle.

I'm glad everyone is starting to see why myself and Kai and LMNO read the place obsessively.

Incidentally, in many ways DH7 is the Ultimate Troll, especially if you do it well enough to cause cognitive dissonance in the person you are arguing with, and cause them to disagree with their former comrades.

Do you mean like some sort of conversion experience, but one based on irrefutable logic instead of intricate bullshit?
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Cain

Yes.  They either accept the criticisms, in which case you win, or they suffer from massive cognitive dissonance and spazz out...in which case, you win.

Win-win scenarios are best scenarios.

The Wizard Joseph

You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

P3nT4gR4m

Wait ... hold on a minute ... YOU FUCKERS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS TO ME FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS  :argh!:

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Nephew Twiddleton

Can you give an example of dh7? All the other ones have them.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS