Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Two vast and trunkless legs of stone => Topic started by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 06:15:49 PM

Title: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 06:15:49 PM
Just signed an online petition at the White House website asking for the President to veto that law that would allow the government to kidnap its citizens. Feel free to add a signature if you like. Closes tomorrow.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/veto-national-defense-authorization-act-2012-several-provisions-bill-pose-threat-civil-liberties/GLfhBn6D?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:40:11 PM
Veto it?  Obama is the one behind the fucker.

Might as well ask Stalin to sign your petition expressing support for Leon Trotsky.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Chairman Risus on December 29, 2011, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 06:15:49 PM
Just signed an online petition at the White House website asking for the President to veto that law that would allow the government to kidnap its citizens. Feel free to add a signature if you like. Closes tomorrow.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/veto-national-defense-authorization-act-2012-several-provisions-bill-pose-threat-civil-liberties/GLfhBn6D?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl

Ha! You're all going on the list.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2hnm8o1.jpg)
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 07:51:32 PM
Better than doing nothing cain.

Pretty damn close to doing nothing but...
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 07:51:32 PM
Better than doing nothing cain.

Pretty damn close to doing nothing but...

How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 08:05:11 PM
It shows public displeasure with it.

You know what fuck it. Youre right hes not going to do shit about it but i dont know what else could be done about it.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
Your flaw is in thinking "a few malcontents on the internet" constitute The Public (itself a convenient fiction).

Obama's response is already pre-determined.  It is "fuck you, you already voted for me.  If it bothers you so much, cast a ballot for Gingrinch.  Or Nader.  Ahahahaha".

The Public is just one interest group, 50% of whom don't ever vote, and, of the remaining 50%, roughly 45% will vote for one particular party because of the beastly, partisan and naked ideological commitment of the other, 45% do the same for the opposing party, 2.5% are "independents" who vote based on an ill-concieved notion of political centrism and 2.5% support third parties. 

The Public aint shit compared to Goldman Sachs, Wackenhut or the Pentagon.  The only way this law is going to get repealed is if someone goes to far and locks up Somone Important and With Connections, ie; a member of the ruling elite.  Until then, The Public will just have to suck it up.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Well if theres no way to do anything about it theres no point in voicing opposition. I wont bother in the future.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 08:27:45 PM
However now that im aware of this particular page i might have some fun making up some petitions for some odd thing or another.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 09:16:48 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Well if theres no way to do anything about it theres no point in voicing opposition. I wont bother in the future.

Eh there was no reason for this thread to go the direction and tone it went.  A prime example of us sniping on each other for no real good reason. 

Short of running for public office or inheriting a mega billion dollar world influencing company there really is not a lot any of us can actually do.  Well, we can speculate on options, but that's about it.  I understand the thinking behind this petition and I think it does make people feel better to sign these because it makes them feel they've been heard.  It's a natural thing.  However, none of us know what the reaction will be from the US government or Obama to this.  We really don't.  All the politicians are stressing their popularity right now.  It might be the right time for something like this to have an impact where it wouldn't any other time in a presidential term.  You just don't know.

Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 08:27:45 PM
However now that im aware of this particular page i might have some fun making up some petitions for some odd thing or another.

You should start a pention....   :lulz:
 
For stopping all radio transmissions within so many miles of cemetaries until we can see if the signals have any affect on zombies....

Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
Lol i like it
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: KharaEh there was no reason for this thread to go the direction and tone it went.  A prime example of us sniping on each other for no real good reason.  

Oh bullshit.  More like your above post is a good example of you sniping on someone else for no good reason.

You want sniping?  Try this: I was talking realpolitik, the art of governance in the actually existing world.  Maybe if you ever bothered to read the vast number of posts on politics and links to other people's writing on politics, you'd understand what that was, you shallow, uncomprehending bint.

Stick to shrill one-sentence spinoffs from hype-driven media.  It's all you can handle.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 09:34:01 PM
And to a degree i think you might be right. We already elected obama but he may be more receptive to these sorts of things right now as you said. And anyway it didnt take me two minutes to do. Sure this elections a joke but on the other hand thousands of people arent really a few malcontents on the internet.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: KharaEh there was no reason for this thread to go the direction and tone it went.  A prime example of us sniping on each other for no real good reason.  

Oh bullshit.  More like your above post is a good example of you sniping on someone else for no good reason.

You want sniping?  Try this: I was talking realpolitik, the art of governance in the actually existing world.  Maybe if you ever bothered to read the vast number of posts on politics and links to other people's writing on politics, you'd understand what that was, you shallow, uncomprehending bint.

Stick to shrill one-sentence spinoffs from hype-driven media.  It's all you can handle.

Love you too Cain.  Glad you are here to tell me all exactly what is wrong with me.  

I'll stick to what you suggest, after all you are so much smarter than I can ever dream of being and you make sure everyone knows it.  

Have a nice day, try not to drown with that nose so turned up like that.  It would be a shame if the world lost your incredible genius.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 09:38:45 PM
Cain obviously you know more about this shit than us but id appreciate it if we could have a constructive convo about this. Youre being a dick at this point.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:40:26 PM
A few thouand signatures.  How many divisions do they have?

Look, a few thousand voters is barely enough to swing a single Represenative's seat, and Congress is a paper tiger in the first place.  Obama is the President, with a billion in the bank for his reelection.  Half of the people who signed the petition will probably end up voting for him anyway, because ooga-booga eViL rEpUbLiCaNs are waiting in the wings.  Obama aint scared of you, and he has no reason to be.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:42:44 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: KharaEh there was no reason for this thread to go the direction and tone it went.  A prime example of us sniping on each other for no real good reason.  

Oh bullshit.  More like your above post is a good example of you sniping on someone else for no good reason.

You want sniping?  Try this: I was talking realpolitik, the art of governance in the actually existing world.  Maybe if you ever bothered to read the vast number of posts on politics and links to other people's writing on politics, you'd understand what that was, you shallow, uncomprehending bint.

Stick to shrill one-sentence spinoffs from hype-driven media.  It's all you can handle.

Love you too Cain.  Glad you are here to tell me all exactly what is wrong with me.  

I'll stick to what you suggest, after all you are so much smarter than I can ever dream of being and you make sure everyone knows it.  

Have a nice day, try not to drown with that nose so turned up like that.  It would be a shame if the world lost your incredible genius.

Or, you know, you could try reading.  But I wouldn't want you to challenge yourself.  Big words and so on.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:45:16 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 09:38:45 PM
Cain obviously you know more about this shit than us but id appreciate it if we could have a constructive convo about this. Youre being a dick at this point.

I'm being the dick?  Fuck you too, buddy.  Khara was the one who decided she wanted a pissing match.  I'm saying nothing I aint said before in Aneristic Delusions, but she decided it was "personal sniping" because...well, I'm not entirely sure, but if I had to guess, showing her up for being a know-nothing dittohead in the Manning pre-trial thread would be a good guess.  She wants personal sniping, she can have it, and then some.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
Do it elsewhere then please.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:49:51 PM
Funny how everyone loves my supposed political insight until it disagrees with their deeply cherished beliefs.  Then I'm a "cynical", "unconstructive" poster who "thinks he's so smart", with the unsaid but definitely implied statement that I aint

:lulz:
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:50:44 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
Do it elsewhere then please.

I'd split it myself, but I'm party to it, so it'll have to be a passing mod or admin.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 09:52:54 PM
You Cain were nasty and sarcastic in your first post.  I actually read it big words and all.  You may not see it but it is obvious to the stupid layperson.

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

And this, in what reality is that anything but nasty and condescending when Neph Twid was nothing but polite?

So please, yes continue to insult me if it makes you happy.  I really don't care.  

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:49:51 PM
Funny how everyone loves my supposed political insight until it disagrees with their deeply cherished beliefs.  Then I'm a "cynical", "unconstructive" poster who "thinks he's so smart", with the unsaid but definitely implied statement that I aint.  

:lulz:

Yes, please make up stuff as you wish, none of that was said by me or in this thread.  My only problem with you was your attitude and shittiness.  I agreed with much of what you said, my problem was how nasty you presented it.  


Edited for my idiocy and mistake in calling Twid RWHN.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:40:11 PM
Veto it?  Obama is the one behind the fucker.

Might as well ask Stalin to sign your petition expressing support for Leon Trotsky.

:lulz: Horrible, but true.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
Your flaw is in thinking "a few malcontents on the internet" constitute The Public (itself a convenient fiction).

Obama's response is already pre-determined.  It is "fuck you, you already voted for me.  If it bothers you so much, cast a ballot for Gingrinch.  Or Nader.  Ahahahaha".

The Public is just one interest group, 50% of whom don't ever vote, and, of the remaining 50%, roughly 45% will vote for one particular party because of the beastly, partisan and naked ideological commitment of the other, 45% do the same for the opposing party, 2.5% are "independents" who vote based on an ill-concieved notion of political centrism and 2.5% support third parties. 

The Public aint shit compared to Goldman Sachs, Wackenhut or the Pentagon.  The only way this law is going to get repealed is if someone goes to far and locks up Somone Important and With Connections, ie; a member of the ruling elite.  Until then, The Public will just have to suck it up.

I don't see anything "sniping" or unconstructive about this post. Unless you're worried it will hurt Obama's feelings.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:57:38 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 09:52:54 PM
You Cain were nasty and sarcastic in your first post.  I actually read it big words and all.  You may not see it but it is obvious to the stupid layperson.

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

And this, in what reality is that anything but nasty and condescending when RWHN was nothing but polite?

So please, yes continue to insult me if it makes you happy.  I really don't care.  

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:49:51 PM
Funny how everyone loves my supposed political insight until it disagrees with their deeply cherished beliefs.  Then I'm a "cynical", "unconstructive" poster who "thinks he's so smart", with the unsaid but definitely implied statement that I aint.  

:lulz:

Yes, please make up stuff as you wish, none of that was said by me or in this thread.  My only problem with you was your attitude and shittiness.  I agreed with much of what you said, my problem was how nasty you presented it.  


Aren't you the one who is always whining about how other people need to toughen up and throw out liberal "fuck you!"'s to people you disagree with with?

Why, I do believe you are.  You, lady, are a hypocrite and a hack.  If I wanted to get personal and nasty with Twid, I'd be...well, kinda treating him the way I'm treating you now.  But don't let that get in the way of your clearly metasizing butthurt.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
Im not disagreeing with you either cain. But it did discourage me to even attempt to talk about it. I didnt see kharas post as being a snipe at you but rather to attempt to revive a thread that you shot down pretty quickly. Just saying.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:57:38 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 09:52:54 PM
You Cain were nasty and sarcastic in your first post.  I actually read it big words and all.  You may not see it but it is obvious to the stupid layperson.

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

And this, in what reality is that anything but nasty and condescending when RWHN was nothing but polite?

So please, yes continue to insult me if it makes you happy.  I really don't care.  

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:49:51 PM
Funny how everyone loves my supposed political insight until it disagrees with their deeply cherished beliefs.  Then I'm a "cynical", "unconstructive" poster who "thinks he's so smart", with the unsaid but definitely implied statement that I aint.  

:lulz:

Yes, please make up stuff as you wish, none of that was said by me or in this thread.  My only problem with you was your attitude and shittiness.  I agreed with much of what you said, my problem was how nasty you presented it.  


Aren't you the one who is always whining about how other people need to toughen up and throw out liberal "fuck you!"'s to people you disagree with with?

Why, I do believe you are.  You, lady, are a hypocrite and a hack.  If I wanted to get personal and nasty with Twid, I'd be...well, kinda treating him the way I'm treating you now.  But don't let that get in the way of your clearly metasizing butthurt.

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.  No I'm not the one who says that, I've never said that.  EVER!!  

But yes, please go on, make up whatever you wish.  
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Kai on December 29, 2011, 10:04:32 PM
I completely agree with what Cain said earlier in this thread. We live in a corporatist kleptocracy, exactly as he described. An Internet petition is not a strong enough measure by the public (interest group) to sway the balance away from other interest groups with far more capital.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 10:06:00 PM
On second thought dont bother with a thread split. This threads point was doa anyway.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:06:09 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
Im not disagreeing with you either cain. But it did discourage me to even attempt to talk about it. I didnt see kharas post as being a snipe at you but rather to attempt to revive a thread that you shot down pretty quickly. Just saying.

I refuse to take responsibility for how you feel about the response I provided.  I commented, I gave reasons why I felt it was a waste of time.  I wasn't preventing anyone from disagreeing, or signing the petition if they wanted to. I'm not sure what else I'm meant to do.

And Khara was trying to paint my responses as some kind of personal vendetta, which was a purposeful misreading of my statements.  Though it could just be that she's retarded.  I mean, that also explains how she ended up reading it that way.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:08:28 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.  No I'm not the one who says that, I've never said that.  EVER!!  

But yes, please go on, make up whatever you wish.  

I'm talking about your hilarious inclination to dish it out at the slightest provocation, but to cry foul, pick your ball up and go home whenever someone does the same right back.  Try to keep up.

And remember what happened the last time you accused me of making shit up? 
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 10:09:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:06:09 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
Im not disagreeing with you either cain. But it did discourage me to even attempt to talk about it. I didnt see kharas post as being a snipe at you but rather to attempt to revive a thread that you shot down pretty quickly. Just saying.

I refuse to take responsibility for how you feel about the response I provided.  I commented, I gave reasons why I felt it was a waste of time.  I wasn't preventing anyone from disagreeing, or signing the petition if they wanted to. I'm not sure what else I'm meant to do.

And Khara was trying to paint my responses as some kind of personal vendetta, which was a purposeful misreading of my statements.  Though it could just be that she's retarded.  I mean, that also explains how she ended up reading it that way.

Wait, you took this one specific line as all that?

Quote from: KharaEh there was no reason for this thread to go the direction and tone it went.  A prime example of us sniping on each other for no real good reason.

:lulz:

But I'm the one who is butthurt.  No wait, I'm retarded.  

:lulz:

No worries then....

Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 10:10:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:08:28 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.  No I'm not the one who says that, I've never said that.  EVER!!  

But yes, please go on, make up whatever you wish.  

I'm talking about your hilarious inclination to dish it out at the slightest provocation, but to cry foul, pick your ball up and go home whenever someone does the same right back.  Try to keep up.

And remember what happened the last time you accused me of making shit up? 

But you are the one arguing with a retarded person right?

:lulz:
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 10:11:10 PM
Im not asking you to take responsibility for how i felt.  I didnt take your posts as a personal vendetta since i didnt think one existed. I did think that it was possible that you were in a mood of some sort which i wouldnt have taken personally either.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:14:31 PM
I have no reason to be butthurt about you.  I'm not the one who made myself look like an idiot instead of using Google for a minute.

And yeah, I did read it that way.  Because Khara, when you say "us" there was only two people in the thread at the time, and one of them was me.  So what you actually meant was "0n no35, Cain is being a meany for personal reasons", implying I had no legitimate disagreements with Twid.

Which is what everyone does when I say something political they don't like.  "Oh, Cain doesn't really mean that.  He's just disagreeing for entirely abritrary, irrational reasons."

Which goes again back to the point: everyone apparently loves my political posts.  Except when I disagree.  Then I'm just engaged in irrational sniping.

Take your time when reading this one, bint, since you're clearly having trouble following it all.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:16:40 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 10:10:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:08:28 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.  No I'm not the one who says that, I've never said that.  EVER!!  

But yes, please go on, make up whatever you wish.  

I'm talking about your hilarious inclination to dish it out at the slightest provocation, but to cry foul, pick your ball up and go home whenever someone does the same right back.  Try to keep up.

And remember what happened the last time you accused me of making shit up? 

But you are the one arguing with a retarded person right?

:lulz:

No, I'm making an example of you.  Rather well, in fact.

Bets on how long until Khara caves in and runs back to EB&G crying about how mean I am?  Anyone?

(of course, I might just be saying this so she sticks around to make an even bigger fool of herself)
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2011, 10:17:52 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 10:11:10 PM
Im not asking you to take responsibility for how i felt.  I didnt take your posts as a personal vendetta since i didnt think one existed. I did think that it was possible that you were in a mood of some sort which i wouldnt have taken personally either.

It was a legitimate political disagreement.

But, apparently, I don't have those.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 10:18:44 PM
Asking someone to justify an argument without falling back on a fallacy is not sniping, it is not condescention, and it is not "shutting down" the thread. It is a challenge to defend your argument, and if you immediately fall back into a wounded defensive position it might be a good sign that either your argument is indefensible, or that you are unprepared to defend it and should probably think it through a little farther.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 10:21:51 PM
I didn't think it was a personal vendetta against Twid, I just thought it was a nasty tone.  

You Cain, take things I say as being a personal condescending attack on you often.  You also don't accept apologies, nor are you apparently capable of moving on.  Not my issue.  I see the tone of some of what you write as nasty.  

And it was this quote that I saw as just too far....  

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

You can say anything you want, that is about as condescending as it gets.

Then again, to reiterate, as you have made me well aware, I'm retarded and, from what I can google also a slut, or maybe a skank as bint seems to have multiple definitions.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 10:24:15 PM
IN ANY EVENT, I ask that someone please split this thread, please feel free to remove my retarded posts, and y'all continue on.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 10:28:03 PM
The how exactly post is what made me think you were in a mood. I figured that the title of the thread would have indicated that i was inclined to agree with you on the impact that it would have but couldnt hurt right? Ill admit i wasnt thrilled at your wording as i did find it a little condescending but your point was sound. Eh.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 29, 2011, 10:35:56 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 10:21:51 PM
I didn't think it was a personal vendetta against Twid, I just thought it was a nasty tone.  

You Cain, take things I say as being a personal condescending attack on you often.  You also don't accept apologies, nor are you apparently capable of moving on.  Not my issue.  I see the tone of some of what you write as nasty.  

And it was this quote that I saw as just too far....  

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

You can say anything you want, that is about as condescending as it gets.

Then again, to reiterate, as you have made me well aware, I'm retarded and, from what I can google also a slut, or maybe a skank as bint seems to have multiple definitions.

No, you thought it was a personal vendetta against RWHN, because you're a complete idiot.

Jesus, Khara, half the time you get butthurt it either doesn't make sense or doesn't have anything to do with you, and then you try to back-engineer your butthurt to rationalize it and that rarely makes sense either. What the hell are you even saying?

And if it's not you being butthurt on your own behalf, it's you interpreting things as being nasty jabs toward other people and then white-knighting in to the rescue to escalate the situation (as if the "wounded party" can't speak for themselves?) so that you can have an excuse to get butthurt and flounce. It seems as if you can't see mild sarcasm or incisive commentary without perceiving it as a horrific personal assault. When you're not doing that, you're calling for lynch mobs, summary executions without trial, and torture of "suspects" in case  they might turn out to be an actual criminal. You are the most programmed person I've ever seen on this board.

You post such vicious, spiteful, hateful things, take pride in (in your own words) being a "evil bitch", and accuse other people of being vicious, spiteful, and hateful so often that I can only feel sorry for you, because your inner life much be truly awful for you to constantly read so much venom into everything you see.

As for your call for splitting this thread... who are you? Twid said that it can be left alone.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 29, 2011, 11:35:01 PM
As always Nigel you know my thoughts, intentions and emotions so much better than I do myself.  I couldn't have made a legitimate error with the new names or anything. Or is it your personal and obvious hatred for RWHN that made you say that because god forbid anyone take someone's side you don't like right?

I should take your shining example of perfection and attempt my retarded best to come close to your shadow.

Maybe I should not think that you are incapable of leaving me alone unless I attempt to interact with you and I should realize your constant harping on me is what I truly need to hear to become a better person.

Or maybe my mistake is thinking people can be adult and leave name calling and personal insults out of a conversation.

Be that as it may, as I am the retarded one, I'll keep my posts to the media hyped one liners I'm mentally capable of in threads far away from the serious threads.

Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Rumckle on December 29, 2011, 11:54:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 07:51:32 PM
Better than doing nothing cain.

Pretty damn close to doing nothing but...

How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

Hmm, in some ways, I think it may actually be worse than nothing. It shows Obama that he can piss of the liberals that voted for him, and the worse they will do is sign a meaningless online petition. If that is all he has to worry about form these people, then his life is pretty peachy.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 29, 2011, 11:58:20 PM
Rumckle stop trying to threadjack. ;)

interesting point but its not just liberals that oppose this. This actually also feeds into some conservative and conspiracy narratives.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Rumckle on December 30, 2011, 12:01:59 AM
That is true, but they aren't doing much either (apart from the Tea Party, but, of course, they lost their way as soon as they started)
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 12:06:40 AM
Fair point. Anyway i may sign a petion or two in the future if the mood strikes me. But the idea of now using this as an opportunity to jake the prez is appealing.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: AFK on December 30, 2011, 12:27:01 AM
How the heck did I get wrapped up into this convo?    :?
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 12:39:56 AM
Best leave it alone rev. Its not worth it.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 30, 2011, 12:45:57 AM
Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 11:35:01 PM
As always Nigel you know my thoughts, intentions and emotions so much better than I do myself.  I couldn't have made a legitimate error with the new names or anything. Or is it your personal and obvious hatred for RWHN that made you say that because god forbid anyone take someone's side you don't like right?

I should take your shining example of perfection and attempt my retarded best to come close to your shadow.

Maybe I should not think that you are incapable of leaving me alone unless I attempt to interact with you and I should realize your constant harping on me is what I truly need to hear to become a better person.

Or maybe my mistake is thinking people can be adult and leave name calling and personal insults out of a conversation.

Be that as it may, as I am the retarded one, I'll keep my posts to the media hyped one liners I'm mentally capable of in threads far away from the serious threads.



Far from constant harping, I try to avoid you whenever possible because you're so unpleasant to deal with and come up with the most far-fetched excuses to think I'm picking on you. Even when I leave you completely alone, you somehow (I am still scratching my head over this one) manage to interpret me quoting and agreeing with someone else who posted earlier in the thread, before you even posted in it, about something that had nothing whatsoever to do with you, as some sort of a slam, and your excuse for that one wasn't even coherent. It made no sense whatsoever.

The only reason RWHN came up in this thread is that for some mysterious reason that again is completely inexplicable to me, you thought that Cain only posted what he did as part of some kind of personal vendetta against him. Once again, completely out of left field, as RWHN had nothing to do with anything.

Spare me your self-martyrdom, please. It's tiresome.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 12:48:37 AM
Hey cain are we cool? Cuz im about ready to abandon this thread.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 01:51:55 AM
Ok, now that I'm on my computer instead of my phone and can actually do stuff like type quickly and quote stuff, I'm going to just tie up the loose ends here and be done with this fucking thread, other than to read any responses to this post.

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM

How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

This is what annoyed me. And it does strike me as condescending, and Cain (or anyone else), if you don't see that, I'm sorry. You're expecting me to give some sort of irrational, emotionally self-serving answer, and you just want to nip that in the bud, when I wasn't going to do anything of the sort, and you should know me well enough at this point to know that my answer would not have included any warm fuzzy feelings. Because that isn't better than nothing. But whatever, like I said I figured someone pissed in your cornflakes. So it all lead to this:

Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Well if theres no way to do anything about it theres no point in voicing opposition. I wont bother in the future.

And I would have been happy to either let the thread die, or for you or someone to pick up on that post and use it as a springboard to keep the conversation going. Maybe you could have offered me advice on more effective ways to bother in the future, or some other riff or another. Or even look at the thing from a different angle.

Oh hey.

Quote from: Khara on December 29, 2011, 09:16:48 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Well if theres no way to do anything about it theres no point in voicing opposition. I wont bother in the future.

Eh there was no reason for this thread to go the direction and tone it went.
  A prime example of us sniping on each other for no real good reason. 

Short of running for public office or inheriting a mega billion dollar world influencing company there really is not a lot any of us can actually do.  Well, we can speculate on options, but that's about it.  I understand the thinking behind this petition and I think it does make people feel better to sign these because it makes them feel they've been heard.  It's a natural thing.  However, none of us know what the reaction will be from the US government or Obama to this.  We really don't.  All the politicians are stressing their popularity right now.  It might be the right time for something like this to have an impact where it wouldn't any other time in a presidential term.  You just don't know.



And the bolded applies equally to me too. Guess you pissed in my cornflakes. I admit that. Maybe sniping wasn't the right word for it, but I agree with Khara's assessment that that sort of shit happens around here and probably fucks up threads because people end up arguing over shit. :looks around: Oh. Well, that's ironic.

It's cool. You didn't mean to piss in my cornflakes. But then of course it degenerates into a fight between you and Khara, and then eventually you, Khara and Nigel. And all three of you are at fault for spagging up my thread. You could have just ignored each other. I'm not mad. I just figured that I would point that out. And since all this comes flaring out of your poor choice of words and me letting it get me ruffled, there's really no point for any arguing in this thread to continue. You don't have to thread split, but unless you're going to resolve whatever disputes you have with each other in this thread, please take it elsewhere from this point on. Why you all don't get along is not my business, and I'm probably not interested anyway. I'm satisfied that Cain wasn't intentionally trying to talk down to me, so as far as I'm concerned the whole reason for the argument is over unless Cain needs to clear the air with me over something that I said in this thread.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Phox on December 30, 2011, 03:17:41 AM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 01:51:55 AM
Ok, now that I'm on my computer instead of my phone and can actually do stuff like type quickly and quote stuff, I'm going to just tie up the loose ends here and be done with this fucking thread, other than to read any responses to this post.

Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 07:58:20 PM

How, exactly?  As in, I'd like a step-by-step, logical argument to explain how this is better than doing nothing.

Note: I will not accept "giving yourself a warm, fuzzy feeling of Being Involved In Political Activism" as an argument.

This is what annoyed me. And it does strike me as condescending, and Cain (or anyone else), if you don't see that, I'm sorry. You're expecting me to give some sort of irrational, emotionally self-serving answer, and you just want to nip that in the bud, when I wasn't going to do anything of the sort, and you should know me well enough at this point to know that my answer would not have included any warm fuzzy feelings. Because that isn't better than nothing. But whatever, like I said I figured someone pissed in your cornflakes. So it all lead to this:
From a completely neutral third party: I don't see anything wrong with the way Cain's statement is worded. I don't think it's "expecting" any sort of response, but preempting the use of irrational, emotional arguments out of habit more than personal response.
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 01:51:55 AM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 29, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Well if theres no way to do anything about it theres no point in voicing opposition. I wont bother in the future.

And I would have been happy to either let the thread die, or for you or someone to pick up on that post and use it as a springboard to keep the conversation going. Maybe you could have offered me advice on more effective ways to bother in the future, or some other riff or another. Or even look at the thing from a different angle.
This part sounds defensive and butthurt. (the part you quoted). I don't know what else to say that wouldn't be giving useless advice about past events, so I'll just leave it at that.

In short, Twid, I didn't read any condescension or hostility in Cain's posts directed at the OP. Maybe you should examine why you did and think on it a bit.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 03:27:46 AM
Perhaps I should. In fact, I already did, since I said I am now satisfied that Cain didn't intend to talk down to me. But really the matter is between me and Cain. While I appreciate your input, I really just want to hear his response. Otherwise it's just continuing this.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 03:39:43 AM
Also, just for clarity, no tone was intended in that last post other than weariness. If anyone else wants to comment on the non-drama parts of the thread, I certainly don't mind. Just want to get the drama bullshit resolved. If it's resolved, just want confirmation.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Pæs on December 30, 2011, 03:45:12 AM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 03:39:43 AM
Also, just for clarity, no tone was intended in that last post other than weariness. If anyone else wants to comment on the non-drama parts of the thread, I certainly don't mind. Just want to get the drama bullshit resolved. If it's resolved, just want confirmation.
What the fuck, man?

We all work really hard on this culture of butthurt. Why are you trying to ruin that by maturely managing conflict?

Why do you hate Discordia?
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 03:48:00 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 30, 2011, 03:45:12 AM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 03:39:43 AM
Also, just for clarity, no tone was intended in that last post other than weariness. If anyone else wants to comment on the non-drama parts of the thread, I certainly don't mind. Just want to get the drama bullshit resolved. If it's resolved, just want confirmation.
What the fuck, man?

We all work really hard on this culture of butthurt. Why are you trying to ruin that by maturely managing conflict?

Why do you hate Discordia?

OK, that put me in a better mood. Thanks, man. :lol:

Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Pæs on December 30, 2011, 04:13:55 AM
 :wink:
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: LMNO on December 30, 2011, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
Your flaw is in thinking "a few malcontents on the internet" constitute The Public (itself a convenient fiction).

Obama's response is already pre-determined.  It is "fuck you, you already voted for me.  If it bothers you so much, cast a ballot for Gingrinch.  Or Nader.  Ahahahaha".

The Public is just one interest group, 50% of whom don't ever vote, and, of the remaining 50%, roughly 45% will vote for one particular party because of the beastly, partisan and naked ideological commitment of the other, 45% do the same for the opposing party, 2.5% are "independents" who vote based on an ill-concieved notion of political centrism and 2.5% support third parties. 

The Public aint shit compared to Goldman Sachs, Wackenhut or the Pentagon.  The only way this law is going to get repealed is if someone goes to far and locks up Somone Important and With Connections, ie; a member of the ruling elite.  Until then, The Public will just have to suck it up.

I have an honest question regarding realpolitik:  Is there a general line that could realistically be crossed that would make an online petition effective?  Sure, a few thousand mouse clicks won't do much, but what about a million?  1.5 million?  1.57 million?  (Which, at that point would be over half of the population...) 

What I'm trying to say is whether there's some point where the "people", while not having the physical or monetary resources to compete with Government Inc., would somehow hit a psychological limit that would indeed influence Obama's behavior; and if that limit is realistically possible to reach.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: AFK on December 30, 2011, 03:17:31 PM
I think if there was a groundswell of people that e-signed some petition and THEN hit the streets and started walking that talk, then, perhaps, there could be some movement.  I think that is where the real problem lies.  It is easy to e-sign a petition.  It's easy to post a rant on a message board.  It is easy to bitch at a coffee shop about the Republicans destroying America.

But until the rubber hits the road, it's just hot gas.  Things that have happened have pissed off a few shitneck tea-baggers and some hippies here and there, but until it hits middle America, it just isn't going to go anywhere. 
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 03:25:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:40:26 PM
A few thouand signatures.  How many divisions do they have?

Cutting through the crap, here, this is the most relevant and correct post on this subject so far.

Obama is not going to listen to fucking petitions.  End of story.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 03:41:47 PM
Ok. So why do we have the right to petition at all? And why would the white house website create a forum for petitions if they were just going to get ignored? Did petitions once actually serve a purpose or have they always been a waste of time? And-is there a way that we could make petitions useful not so much as to influence government rather than public opinion and agitate them into doing something more tangible?
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 03:41:47 PM
Ok. So why do we have the right to petition at all? And why would the white house website create a forum for petitions if they were just going to get ignored?

1.  You have the right to peaceably assemble.  Petitions are pretty peaceable.  Also, amendment IX says you have all kinds of rights that aren't listed.  Sometimes I count them all, just to make myself crazy.

2.  To get a list of the malcontents.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 04:03:56 PM
QuoteThis is what annoyed me. And it does strike me as condescending, and Cain (or anyone else), if you don't see that, I'm sorry. You're expecting me to give some sort of irrational, emotionally self-serving answer, and you just want to nip that in the bud, when I wasn't going to do anything of the sort, and you should know me well enough at this point to know that my answer would not have included any warm fuzzy feelings. Because that isn't better than nothing. But whatever, like I said I figured someone pissed in your cornflakes.

The main reason I said that is I hear a LOT from people in politics, from all different causes and ideologies, that "at least doing something is better than doing nothing".  Which is, to my mind, a specious argument.  What it does boil down to, 99% of the time, is "doing X makes me feel good, even if it actually does nothing".  And you're better than that, and if I made that choice look unpalatable to choose, then I'm sure you'd think about it from a different angle and maybe see something I wasn't, or else be open to having your opinion changed.  It was cutting off a potential way the discussion could go, because it leads nowhere.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: AFK on December 30, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
I think it is important to note that petitions CAN work, just not on a federal level.  They work fine on the state level.  I don't know about other states, but Medical Marijuana is legal in Maine because of a petition.  Gay marriage has been banned or passed because of state level petitions.  If we had the capability of doing citizen's initiatives on a federal level, then petitions could have some significant impact.  It's that lack of machinery that makes petitions pretty useless nationally.

However, state by state, you can build up some momentum to create change.  Not to open this can of worms, but I think if marijuana were ever to become legal, that's how it will happen.  State by state, adding pressure to the federal government to take some kind of action.  Same with marriage initiatives, abortion initiatives (for better or for worse). 

But, of course, these petitions are very different than something you see on-line.  
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 04:12:43 PM
@cain- cool :)
@rwhn- thats a fair point too. You need more of a domino effect to create that sort of push. How would that work with this indefinite detention thing?
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 04:20:13 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 30, 2011, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
Your flaw is in thinking "a few malcontents on the internet" constitute The Public (itself a convenient fiction).

Obama's response is already pre-determined.  It is "fuck you, you already voted for me.  If it bothers you so much, cast a ballot for Gingrinch.  Or Nader.  Ahahahaha".

The Public is just one interest group, 50% of whom don't ever vote, and, of the remaining 50%, roughly 45% will vote for one particular party because of the beastly, partisan and naked ideological commitment of the other, 45% do the same for the opposing party, 2.5% are "independents" who vote based on an ill-concieved notion of political centrism and 2.5% support third parties. 

The Public aint shit compared to Goldman Sachs, Wackenhut or the Pentagon.  The only way this law is going to get repealed is if someone goes to far and locks up Somone Important and With Connections, ie; a member of the ruling elite.  Until then, The Public will just have to suck it up.

I have an honest question regarding realpolitik:  Is there a general line that could realistically be crossed that would make an online petition effective?  Sure, a few thousand mouse clicks won't do much, but what about a million?  1.5 million?  1.57 million?  (Which, at that point would be over half of the population...) 

What I'm trying to say is whether there's some point where the "people", while not having the physical or monetary resources to compete with Government Inc., would somehow hit a psychological limit that would indeed influence Obama's behavior; and if that limit is realistically possible to reach.

Is there a tipping point for public opinion affecting policy?  Sure.

But, you have to consider the particulars of the political situation.  In 2007-8, the Democratic Congress enshrined, legalized and expanded the power of the Executive massively, despite a Republican President being in charge.  Why?  Because they knew they had a good chance at seizing the Presidency in 2008 and so those powers would become their powers.

Same dynamic is at play here.  Even if Obama threatened to veto the bill, what would happen?  The Republicans would put the legislation somewhere cosy, wait until a Republican President was in the White House and then try it all over again.  And almost certainly succeed.

There are other things can they do as well.  They can sneak in the provisions under funding Bills, social security-related legislation, healthcare reform and so on.  Things which Obama's base would punish him for if he refused.  Which he wont, because he has accepted the Bush-Cheney view on counter-terrorism and civil liberties, but even if he hypothetically did not, the vast majority of the ruling class do.

And that's the thing.  The ruling class interests are aligned in such a way that even elite dissenters are unable to effectively fight back against it.  Feingold, Ron Paul, Alan Grayson (before he lost his election) and so on have the luxury of speaking out, because they're already effectively sidelined.

One of the other unique factors influencing US politics is the high degree of partisan affiliation among the grass roots voters, while there is a good deal of agreement at the higher levels, especially on issues concerning National Security, Finance and so on.  Therefore, the chances of a unified front among the general population are low, as those who try to do so will invariably be labelled as party traitors by their own side, and marginalized as a consequence.  Usually, bipartisan movements in the US are those which agree with the National Security/Financial policy situation, such as the alliance between humanitarian interventionists and neoconservative hawks over Iraq, or the agreement between Republicans and Democrats over bailing out the banks.

As such, any mildly competent administration can play these factions like puppets, setting one group against another (usually via the media gossips, who are for the most part the useful idiots of the ruling class, but still somewhat more savvy than the general public) and achieve the outcome that is desired.  But that outcome is set by the bipartisan consensus of the ruling class, which is not only the executive/senate/house but also the "invisible government" of influential think tanks, investment banks, the military, spooks and so on.  There are, of course, factional struggles and disagreements within this grouping.  But, by and large, what they say goes.  When they decide what it is they are saying.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 30, 2011, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 30, 2011, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
Your flaw is in thinking "a few malcontents on the internet" constitute The Public (itself a convenient fiction).

Obama's response is already pre-determined.  It is "fuck you, you already voted for me.  If it bothers you so much, cast a ballot for Gingrinch.  Or Nader.  Ahahahaha".

The Public is just one interest group, 50% of whom don't ever vote, and, of the remaining 50%, roughly 45% will vote for one particular party because of the beastly, partisan and naked ideological commitment of the other, 45% do the same for the opposing party, 2.5% are "independents" who vote based on an ill-concieved notion of political centrism and 2.5% support third parties.  

The Public aint shit compared to Goldman Sachs, Wackenhut or the Pentagon.  The only way this law is going to get repealed is if someone goes to far and locks up Somone Important and With Connections, ie; a member of the ruling elite.  Until then, The Public will just have to suck it up.

I have an honest question regarding realpolitik:  Is there a general line that could realistically be crossed that would make an online petition effective?  Sure, a few thousand mouse clicks won't do much, but what about a million?  1.5 million?  1.57 million?  (Which, at that point would be over half of the population...)  

What I'm trying to say is whether there's some point where the "people", while not having the physical or monetary resources to compete with Government Inc., would somehow hit a psychological limit that would indeed influence Obama's behavior; and if that limit is realistically possible to reach.

Do you mean 157 million would be over half the population? Because I don't see the Federal government being interested in what 1.57 million people have to say on an internet petition. On a State level, though, I think the government would listen to 1.5 million.

[addressing Twid & the thread in general now]
The thing about petitions is that in some contexts, they are useful. A petition can put a measure on the local ballot. A petition can tell a politician that her constituents are upset about something and that if she doesn't do something about it they will vote her out of office. A petition can inform a company that they are losing too much business due to their practices, and put economic pressure on them to change.

On a Federal level, petitions, especially online petitions, also serve a purpose. The ones on whitehouse.org in particular serve a purpose. You see, if a petition gets more than a certain minimum of signatures (what is it, 25,000?) the White House has promised to issue a statement addressing that particular concern. That way, all the people who clicked to sign the petition feel like they have been heard, because an official at the White House addressed the petition, making them feel like they DID SOMETHING RAH! without ever leaving their computer.

It is basically a very cheap and very effective (I might even say brilliant) way to get people to shut up and stay home, and its only real practical function from where we sit is to force the White House to issue statements addressing ridiculous things like whether they are in contact with aliens from other galaxies and whether they are going to do anything about all the stray dogs in Mexico.

Now, if every click sent a dollar to an independent lobbying fund that backed the petition, it might actually do something, out in the real world.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 03:41:47 PM
Ok. So why do we have the right to petition at all? And why would the white house website create a forum for petitions if they were just going to get ignored? Did petitions once actually serve a purpose or have they always been a waste of time? And-is there a way that we could make petitions useful not so much as to influence government rather than public opinion and agitate them into doing something more tangible?

The Administration cares about public opinion...just not in quite the way you may be thinking.

Once you know where the public stands, you can then see if that is acceptable for the administration's planned policies or not.  If they are, great.  If not, then a PR campaign is needed.  Manipulation of public opinion has been the name of the game since the 1920s...lets not forget, the man who invented the term "Public Relations", and indeed the industry itself, was a propaganda officer for the USA during the First World War.  PR is the propagandists term for propaganda, and you have to know what people are thinking, before you attempt to change their minds.  Preaching to the choir can look suspicious after a while, after all.

Also, petitions allow people to blow off steam.  Safety valve.  Hell, even in Communist China you can bitch about the government...just not to the government.  That is because the Chinese system of rule is not as complex and sophisticated as those of liberal democracies.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: LMNO on December 30, 2011, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 30, 2011, 04:23:53 PM
Do you mean 157 million would be over half the population? Because I don't see the Federal government being interested in what 1.57 million people have to say on an internet petition. On a State level, though, I think the government would listen to 1.5 million.

My decimal points had a panic attack.  Yes, I meant 157 million.  Either way, I can definitely get behind what you, Cain, RWHN, and the rest are saying.  Petitioning the federal government from the safety of your computer screen does not result in the intened outcome.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Jenne on December 30, 2011, 04:43:18 PM
http://www.frogloop.com/care2blog/2010/4/28/slacktivism-why-snopes-got-it-wrong-about-internet-petitions.html

http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/3336/2767

Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 04:44:58 PM
But could it be effective the other way around? Could a petition be worded in such a way to inject a new idea into the publics consciousness? And what would be the best way of doing that? If im going to start playing around with this id probably want it to be more omf than trolling.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 04:46:50 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 04:44:58 PM
But could it be effective the other way around? Could a petition be worded in such a way to inject a new idea into the publics consciousness? And what would be the best way of doing that?

Buy CNN.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 04:49:27 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 30, 2011, 04:43:18 PM
http://www.frogloop.com/care2blog/2010/4/28/slacktivism-why-snopes-got-it-wrong-about-internet-petitions.html

http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/3336/2767



Neither of these links refute my thesis.  If you look carefully, you'll notice none of these reforms have to do with national security or financial regulation policy, two of the most critical components of how the state and ruling class actually act and where they defend their perogatives, as a class, most vigorously.

Where there was success it was because the matter was essentially non-consequential, or because it benefited one institutions or faction in its struggle against another, and public opinion was part of the overall campaign.  But the parties are unified over issues relating to terrorism, the middle east, oil, gas, investment banks, derivatives and a whole host of other subjects, and on those issues, no amount of petitioning will have an effect.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 04:52:37 PM
Okay, Roger.  You're talking to a wall, here.  The Horrible Truth™ is never listened to, and they'll run off and sign themselves up for "summer camp" in the guise of an online "petition" that might even get read by a junior staffer before it's sent off to the FBI to be run through/added to the kook filter.

But that's okay.  Talking to yourself is nothing new, is it?  No.  Granted, it usually happens after a facefull of peyote and bourbon, but there's nothing saying you can't do it straight.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 04:57:07 PM
Roger i responded to at least one of your posts. One of the drawbacks of not being able to quote.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 04:58:04 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 04:44:58 PM
But could it be effective the other way around? Could a petition be worded in such a way to inject a new idea into the publics consciousness? And what would be the best way of doing that? If im going to start playing around with this id probably want it to be more omf than trolling.

Could it?  Maybe.  But unlikely.  The media are usually Harvard-Yale-Princeton grad types, or employed by them, and they see themselves as part of the same socio-economic background of those in government, in the think-tanks and governmental institutions and so on, and so their critical faculties (not very developed to begin with) are even less active than normal.  Even most of the blogs are instutionalized along party/think tank affiliation now (and any blog started later than, say, 2006, has virtually no chance of going big now).  You could get lucky and go viral....but the chances are very, very low.

Hell, look at London.  2000 black guys put on a peaceful march to protest at police cruelty.  No-one pays attention.  Muslims put on numerous marches to condemn Islamic terrorism.  No-one pays attention.  Some black guys riot, the news cameras are there, with rolling 24 hour coverage.  Some Muslim says something nutty in public, the next day the tabloids are running it as front page news.

Despite the internet, we still live in societies where the means of mass communication still largely reside in the hands of very few people.  Usually their interests align with the elite, or a faction thereof.  Rupert Murdoch, for example, has a penchant for more right-wing governments, but he'll work with the British Labour Party as happily as he will with the US Republicans.  Or the Chinese Communists.  Look at the Iraq War.  Journalists who dissented too vocally were dropped very quickly, while Pentagon propagandists and those who vocally promoted the war were given more and more airtime.  The media still control most of the avenues of mass communication, and they, as a rule, are jealously protective of their access to and the patronage of important political figures.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 04:58:13 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 04:57:07 PM
Roger i responded to at least one of your posts. One of the drawbacks of not being able to quote.

I know.  But then nobody responded to my answer.

I have become the invisible man today, it seems, IRL and on line.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 03:41:47 PM
Ok. So why do we have the right to petition at all? And why would the white house website create a forum for petitions if they were just going to get ignored?

1.  You have the right to peaceably assemble.  Petitions are pretty peaceable.  Also, amendment IX says you have all kinds of rights that aren't listed.  Sometimes I count them all, just to make myself crazy.

2.  To get a list of the malcontents.

In addition, I would add "because the USA deems it inconsequential that you still have these rights".  It's like the adage that if voting changed anything, it would be illegal.  The US can afford for you to have these rights because they do not affect the operations of government at present.

If they did start to, I'm sure that they would be quickly circumscribed.  This is why I tend to argue that democratic governments are actually much more resilient and entrenched than so called totalitarian regimes.  Said regimes are violent, all controlling etc because they are fundamentally weak, and so are on constant lookout for enemies, real or imagined.

Modern liberal democracies, on the other hand, are far more strongly entrenched, and so more dismissive of public opinion and political pressure.  Ironically, democracies can afford to not care about public opinion far more than tyrannies.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 05:04:05 PM
Well i cant buy cnn so i guess it will just be trolling with it. It will be amusing at any rate.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2011, 05:03:50 PM
In addition, I would add "because the USA deems it inconsequential that you still have these rights".  It's like the adage that if voting changed anything, it would be illegal.  The US can afford for you to have these rights because they do not affect the operations of government at present.


Yep.  Rant all you like.  They don't care.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: AFK on December 30, 2011, 06:01:33 PM
I think an argument over whether online petitions work or not misses the point.  Effecting change is a marathon, not a sprint.  Moreover, it's more like a tri-atholon, or maybe, a decathalon or a 30athalon.

The point being that one tool isn't going to fix the problem.  And even an arsenal of 30 tools isn't going to fix the problem quickly.  I mean, look at how long it took to enact change around civil rights as relates to African-Americans and we clearly still have more work to do there.

But I don't think that means that we don't do anything or that we resign ourselves to trolling the internet.  It just means that if we want to be in the game of change you have to be in it for the long haul if you want to, maybe, see results.  What can we do to effect change in our tiny corner of our world? 

But the other piece is that you really have to define what it is you want to change and then work backwards and really come up with a strategic plan on how you are going to move towards that goal.  It will be a lot easier to do as part of an organization than as a lone citizen.  It is a monumental challenge for sure but it is not impossible.  It just takes persistence and planning and evaluation. 
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: LMNO on December 30, 2011, 06:31:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 03:25:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2011, 09:40:26 PM
A few thouand signatures.  How many divisions do they have?

Cutting through the crap, here, this is the most relevant and correct post on this subject so far.

Obama is not going to listen to fucking petitions.  End of story.

Ok, I get that Americans exist in a country where any opinion that goes against the federal plutocracy will be either ignored or disappeared.

But, as RWHN showed, the process appears to have some traction when scaled down.

And what about the plutocrats themselves? If a handful of whackjobs in Florida can change where Lowes puts its money (http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/11/showbiz/all-american-muslim-lowes/index.html), then the theory shows itself to have some merit.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Local and, to an extent, state politics are areas where petitions, protests etc can have some traction and noticeable effect.  I won't deny that.  I actually encourage voting in local/city/county council elections, and you know how I feel about voting in national elections.  You can actually get the potholes fixed.

However, if you petitioned the Federal government to fix your potholes, it would either a) make more potholes, citing "economic necessity, or b) send in no-bid contractors to fix the potholes, flanked by Blackwater mercenaries, who would then shoot up a school bus and set a puppy on fire, while the actual repairs would take three times as long, cost over four times what the original estimates suggested, use dummy corporations as third party contractors to embezzle money and then hire some local company at 10% of what they were given to do the job anyway.

Thats how the Feds roll, yo.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 30, 2011, 08:06:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 04:46:50 PM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 04:44:58 PM
But could it be effective the other way around? Could a petition be worded in such a way to inject a new idea into the publics consciousness? And what would be the best way of doing that?

Buy CNN.

:lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: LMNO on December 30, 2011, 08:08:32 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Local and, to an extent, state politics are areas where petitions, protests etc can have some traction and noticeable effect.  I won't deny that.  I actually encourage voting in local/city/county council elections, and you know how I feel about voting in national elections.  You can actually get the potholes fixed.

However, if you petitioned the Federal government to fix your potholes, it would either a) make more potholes, citing "economic necessity, or b) send in no-bid contractors to fix the potholes, flanked by Blackwater mercenaries, who would then shoot up a school bus and set a puppy on fire, while the actual repairs would take three times as long, cost over four times what the original estimates suggested, use dummy corporations as third party contractors to embezzle money and then hire some local company at 10% of what they were given to do the job anyway.

Thats how the Feds roll, yo.

:potd:
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2011, 08:27:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Local and, to an extent, state politics are areas where petitions, protests etc can have some traction and noticeable effect.  I won't deny that.  I actually encourage voting in local/city/county council elections, and you know how I feel about voting in national elections.  You can actually get the potholes fixed.

However, if you petitioned the Federal government to fix your potholes, it would either a) make more potholes, citing "economic necessity, or b) send in no-bid contractors to fix the potholes, flanked by Blackwater mercenaries, who would then shoot up a school bus and set a puppy on fire, while the actual repairs would take three times as long, cost over four times what the original estimates suggested, use dummy corporations as third party contractors to embezzle money and then hire some local company at 10% of what they were given to do the job anyway.

Thats how the Feds roll, yo.

Cain wins the internet.  Again.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 08:38:50 PM
Since this is now actually a good discussion about politics can i request that it gets moved to aneristic? Will post more itt later. Battery is almost dead.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Kai on December 30, 2011, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Local and, to an extent, state politics are areas where petitions, protests etc can have some traction and noticeable effect.  I won't deny that.  I actually encourage voting in local/city/county council elections, and you know how I feel about voting in national elections.  You can actually get the potholes fixed.

However, if you petitioned the Federal government to fix your potholes, it would either a) make more potholes, citing "economic necessity, or b) send in no-bid contractors to fix the potholes, flanked by Blackwater mercenaries, who would then shoot up a school bus and set a puppy on fire, while the actual repairs would take three times as long, cost over four times what the original estimates suggested, use dummy corporations as third party contractors to embezzle money and then hire some local company at 10% of what they were given to do the job anyway.

Thats how the Feds roll, yo.

I find it really interesting how the voting hype is always in the opposite direction. Most people who get riled up over national politics hardly notice local government, yet local governments are the ones that get things done which are most relevant to our everyday lives. It's not clean execution either. My mother, who is the director of the local library, sits on the city council as one of the department heads. She has told me stories of outrageous embezzlement by the former head of parks and rec that wasn't found out for years, and seriously drained the city's funds in that department. So I totally agree with your sentiments.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 30, 2011, 10:46:19 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 30, 2011, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Local and, to an extent, state politics are areas where petitions, protests etc can have some traction and noticeable effect.  I won't deny that.  I actually encourage voting in local/city/county council elections, and you know how I feel about voting in national elections.  You can actually get the potholes fixed.

However, if you petitioned the Federal government to fix your potholes, it would either a) make more potholes, citing "economic necessity, or b) send in no-bid contractors to fix the potholes, flanked by Blackwater mercenaries, who would then shoot up a school bus and set a puppy on fire, while the actual repairs would take three times as long, cost over four times what the original estimates suggested, use dummy corporations as third party contractors to embezzle money and then hire some local company at 10% of what they were given to do the job anyway.

Thats how the Feds roll, yo.

I find it really interesting how the voting hype is always in the opposite direction. Most people who get riled up over national politics hardly notice local government, yet local governments are the ones that get things done which are most relevant to our everyday lives. It's not clean execution either. My mother, who is the director of the local library, sits on the city council as one of the department heads. She has told me stories of outrageous embezzlement by the former head of parks and rec that wasn't found out for years, and seriously drained the city's funds in that department. So I totally agree with your sentiments.

I think that people tend to think more along the lines of, "this stuff's more important because it's higher up." And, it's for some weird reason more noticeable. Technically what's going on in your neighborhood should be more noticeable. But maybe that's the whole thing. It's all too close for people to be able to focus on.
Title: Re: Not sure if it will do any good but....
Post by: Placid Dingo on December 31, 2011, 02:27:47 AM
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 30, 2011, 10:46:19 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 30, 2011, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Local and, to an extent, state politics are areas where petitions, protests etc can have some traction and noticeable effect.  I won't deny that.  I actually encourage voting in local/city/county council elections, and you know how I feel about voting in national elections.  You can actually get the potholes fixed.

However, if you petitioned the Federal government to fix your potholes, it would either a) make more potholes, citing "economic necessity, or b) send in no-bid contractors to fix the potholes, flanked by Blackwater mercenaries, who would then shoot up a school bus and set a puppy on fire, while the actual repairs would take three times as long, cost over four times what the original estimates suggested, use dummy corporations as third party contractors to embezzle money and then hire some local company at 10% of what they were given to do the job anyway.

Thats how the Feds roll, yo.

I find it really interesting how the voting hype is always in the opposite direction. Most people who get riled up over national politics hardly notice local government, yet local governments are the ones that get things done which are most relevant to our everyday lives. It's not clean execution either. My mother, who is the director of the local library, sits on the city council as one of the department heads. She has told me stories of outrageous embezzlement by the former head of parks and rec that wasn't found out for years, and seriously drained the city's funds in that department. So I totally agree with your sentiments.

I think that people tend to think more along the lines of, "this stuff's more important because it's higher up." And, it's for some weird reason more noticeable. Technically what's going on in your neighborhood should be more noticeable. But maybe that's the whole thing. It's all too close for people to be able to focus on.

Also, media again; report on Obama, 1 story relevant to whole nation.

Report on locals...

Also, I wonder if Nigels idea could actually be implemented.