Discuss libertarianism for the Nth time

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

What was wrong with RR?  

I thought he did an ok job with lots of things.  The economy, improving America's world image from an American's pov and getting the Iranian hostages released to name a few.  

He certainly has had a great impact on Conservatism as it exists today.  

I'm a Libertarian not a Republican.    

[Earthbound Spirit]

At least tell me what's wrong with being a Libertarian... 

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

The only thing I trust less than the government is the corporation. If you think they've got your best interests in mind I've got an ocean liner in Utah I want to sell you. Since we're talking about your best interests, I'm concerned about your paint thinner habit.

Also, Ron Paul.

While I'm at it, conservativism as it exists today is completely fucked and has lost all sight of what it's supposed to stand for. Thanks Reagan.

Shit, on paper conservativism sounds great.

Lots of checks on government? Minimal interference with individual liberties? Upholding the constitution? Being fiscally responsible? Fuck yeah, sign me up.

In practice, it's nothing like that.

I'm not a liberal or a democrat but "conservatives" have consistently fucked up the budget and have fucked with the rights of citizens for as long as I have been alive. They've completely gone against the ideals they espouse. Up until Obama (and it's still early in his presidency, plus he inherited a fucking nightmare from his predecessor), democrats have been way more fiscally responsible than republicans, which kind of seems like a ludicrous thing to me. If republicans were what they claim they are, we'd be in much better shape.

I'm all for a third party but the libertarians seem to basically take all of the shittiest things about the GOP and distill them into a somehow even shittier collection of ideals. Trusting corporations is what got us into the train wreck we're in now.

[Remington]

The only thing I trust less than the government is the corporation. If you think they've got your best interests in mind I've got an ocean liner in Utah I want to sell you. Since we're talking about your best interests, I'm concerned about your paint thinner habit.

Also, Ron Paul.

While I'm at it, conservativism as it exists today is completely fucked and has lost all sight of what it's supposed to stand for. Thanks Reagan.

Shit, on paper conservativism sounds great.

Lots of checks on government? Minimal interference with individual liberties? Upholding the constitution? Being fiscally responsible? Fuck yeah, sign me up.

In practice, it's nothing like that.

I'm not a liberal or a democrat but "conservatives" have consistently fucked up the budget and have fucked with the rights of citizens for as long as I have been alive. They've completely gone against the ideals they espouse. Up until Obama (and it's still early in his presidency, plus he inherited a fucking nightmare from his predecessor), democrats have been way more fiscally responsible than republicans, which kind of seems like a ludicrous thing to me. If republicans were what they claim they are, we'd be in much better shape.

I'm all for a third party but the libertarians seem to basically take all of the shittiest things about the GOP and distill them into a somehow even shittier collection of ideals. Trusting corporations is what got us into the train wreck we're in now.

TITCM.

I'm not registered with any of the local parties; I'll go all in-depth into it when election time rolls around and find out which party/candidate is closest to my views. The way things are looking now, I'll probably vote Green.

[Cain]

At least tell me what's wrong with being a Libertarian... 

Libertarianism of the majority American brand, propagated by the Cato Institute, Reason Magazine, the Libertarian Party et al is philosophical rubbish tailor-made for 13 year olds.

Lets put it this way.  Imagine a two man robbery taking place.  One guy covers you with a gun, while the other guy grabs the loot and runs away with it.  In the Libertarian scheme of things, the guy holding the gun (ie the government) is the only one who is ever held to fault, while the other guy is lauded and praised for his visionary and innovative "wealth creation" skills.  Common sense on the other hand would dictate both are as bad as each other, and that their mostly illusory opposition to the other is part of a two-man con, designed to get people backing one faction or another while not realising both work in concert to achieve their aims.

And that's just for starters.  Don't get me going on Libertarian apologists for sweat-shops in the third world, reflexive hatred of unions in theory and in practice (rational self-interest is only for bosses), misunderstanding of what capitalism actually means (protip: bankers and financial speculators were never considered capitalists) and in some more extreme cases, very real hatred of democracy. This list could get longer, but I've only slept one hour in the past day, and that was heavily interrupted, so you'll have to excuse me while I pass out over here instead of continue this post.

[Cramulus]

to cain and annabell

I want to like libertarianism. But I do not see the Free Market as this magical channel for freedom. I see it as another oppressive beast, something so big and pervasive that we cannot control it even though it determines nearly every aspect of our everyday lives.

[Cain]

Cram, you should read Kevin Carson at http://mutualist.blogspot.com/  He's a non-crazy, left-leaning libertarian who frequently quotes Robert Anton Wilson and makes some excellent points.

Some variants of libertarianism aren't, in my opinion, too bad, especially more intellectual and nuanced approaches its just that capital L Libertarianism in America is corporate hagiography and nothing more.

[Requia ☣]

to cain and annabell

I want to like libertarianism. But I do not see the Free Market as this magical channel for freedom. I see it as another oppressive beast, something so big and pervasive that we cannot control it even though it determines nearly every aspect of our everyday lives.

I dunno, I've left libertarianism behind, but I still believe in the free market.

I just don't think libertarians believe in the free market.  Free market means you don't put up with monopolists, and you certainly don't take shit from the people who control things that were never part of the free market in the first place (infrastructure).  It means unions are a damn good thing (but need to be subject to the same anti monopoly controls as businesses).

It never means the kind of bullshit the supposedly free market republicans pull.

[Template]

A truly free market requires truly free people.  It's thus as viable as national scale communism.  Also, it's buzzword or code...

[Elder Iptuous]

to cain and annabell

I want to like libertarianism. But I do not see the Free Market as this magical channel for freedom. I see it as another oppressive beast, something so big and pervasive that we cannot control it even though it determines nearly every aspect of our everyday lives.

isn't seeing the market as an oppressive beast just as fanciful as seeing it as a magical freedom channel?
the market is supply, demand, and the resultant price fluctuations attempting to reach equilibrium.  oh, and a healthy dose of monkey irrationality.
that's it.

the magical channel for freedom seems off base to me because a free market and economic freedom are the same thing.  the one is not the result of the other.
the oppressive beast seems off base to me because without some threat of force, where is the oppression?  and if there is threat of force (i.e. govt), then there is no free market...

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

The free market could possibly work if corporations were abolished and the people making the decisions were held directly accountable for their actions instead of this corporate personhood bullshit.

[Cramulus]

to cain and annabell

I want to like libertarianism. But I do not see the Free Market as this magical channel for freedom. I see it as another oppressive beast, something so big and pervasive that we cannot control it even though it determines nearly every aspect of our everyday lives.

isn't seeing the market as an oppressive beast just as fanciful as seeing it as a magical freedom channel?
the market is supply, demand, and the resultant price fluctuations attempting to reach equilibrium.  oh, and a healthy dose of monkey irrationality.
that's it.

My roommate believes that the Free Market is capable of solving all our problems. He thinks we should privatize everything and let supply and demand iron out the wrinkles of modern living.

Sure, that totally worked for artists, who can now only comment on certain parts of culture for fear of violating some guarded piece of IP.

The Health Care Industry is doing a kick ass job of providing everybody with affordable health care.

And now that there are a ton of "green" products available in the marketplace, I'm sure the environment will be fine.



sarcasm aside, the free market is great at solving problems when the problem can be solved by a product or financial incentive. (everything will be okay ... if you can afford the solution) But there is a lot more going on in America than supply and demand. The free market does not end wars, or increase civil rights. Quality of Life is not correlated with the GDP.

the oppressive beast seems off base to me because without some threat of force, where is the oppression?

Most of the important life decisions I've made are basically about money.

We spend half of our waking hours running after it and the other half spending it.

Money is power, money is freedom. If you have more money, you have more choices, more mobility, and are therefore more free.

The oppression is in the pervasiveness of it. Nearly anything you want to do in this world is mediated by these green biosurvival tickets.

If everybody had a more equal say, the system might be a bit fairer to the chumps on the bottom. But most of the money in this country is controlled by very slim fraction of the population. The rest of us get to eat what scraps trickle down. I don't see what incentive I have to play the game, except that there's no other game in town.

It's like starting a game of monopoly where your opponent already owns 75% of the spaces on the board. "If you play long enough, you can be as rich as I am!" he tells you. "You are free to buy any of the four spaces I haven't bought yet."

"But I don't even like monopoly," I say.

"Well it's the only game we have," he says. "If you'd like, you can sit quietly over there until the game is over."

[Elder Iptuous]

The free market could possibly work if corporations were abolished and the people making the decisions were held directly accountable for their actions instead of this corporate personhood bullshit.

abolishing corporations seems pretty unlikely.
and as it stands, although the individuals are not liable for their actions (in some regard), the corporation is.  so why are we dealing with all these problems that corporations cause time and again?  it seems to me that it's because their feet aren't being held to the fire like they should be.  our enforcers are in their pockets.  The corporations are behaving exactly as they were designed to.  The govt. isn't.  For this reason, i blame the enforcers, as they are the ones that are directly accountable to the public...

[Cramulus]

as soon as you figure out a way to throw a corporation in jail, let me know.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think there's a wide gulf between what is philosophically sound and what is practical for large groups of monkeys.

From a philosophical standpoint, it seems to me that any government which doesn't rest on the consent of the governed is simply a bureaucratic slave system. That is, if Cramulus says to me "You must go work in the field and I will have final say over what you keep and what I take, or I will beat you", we call that slavery. The government says "You go work, we have final say over what you keep and what we take, or we'll put you in jail"... that too is slavery. Just because there's a few hundred schmucks in suits, instead of a mustached Cramulus with a taskmasters whip makes no real difference. If I as a human am born "Free", then I should not be compelled to do anything by a legitimate government, unless I choose to enter into an association with that government.

So in that view, I can see the Libertarians point. HOWEVER (and this is a big point), this can only apply to individuals born with the right to their own person and freedom. As soon as we come together and form a corporation or other 'legal' entity we have voluntarily entered into an arrangement with the legal system aka the government. This is where American Libertarianism falls on its face. It seems to expect the government to provide a environment for their Free Market, but not to actually try to interact with it. They want their Cake and Pie and Ice Cream and a deep fried Bald Eagle for the crunchy topping.

A completely Free Market 'could work'... but ONLY in a society where everyone were 100% responsible for their own decisions and actions. What that means is that a Free Market could work, if Ken Lay knew that his stockholders would string him up to the nearest tree without concern for any 'legal repercussions'. MegaCorp Inc. is unlikely to spike the water table with SuperCancer if they know that the people in town will come set them on fire and blow up their house.

But no, the corporations WANT legal protection. They WANT "limited liability". They WANT an 'ordered society'... but they don't want the tool that keeps all that in place (the government) to get in the way of their cash flow.